RT to eMag trouble shooting

[BlackOps]

I was gonna post a video of this up, but my camera died, so my story telling skills will have to suffice for the time being. While I'm a long time mag veteran, I'm still extremely new to the LVL X, ULT, Emag stuff.

Basically, I bought some eMag lowers to put on my RT ULE. RT has a splinter rail, exile body, LVL X, X-valve and ULT. Played a couple of full days with it. Ran beautifully. ULT was tuned to super sensitive and I had no problems with it at all.

Bought some emag lowers with the emag on/off assembly. Swapped out the lowers and the on off assembly and aired it up.

First time, it wouldn't fire at all. Mech or E modes. In Mech mode I could feel the on/off being pushed in, and then it would push right back when I released, but either the sear didn't release or the bolt didn't move after being released. In E Mode it would trip the solenoid then the on/off would reset, but all without firing.

Oiled it up quite a bit and tried again. This time in Mech Mode it would chuff when I pulled the trigger and the bolt would fully reset, but the on/off pin would not. I could reach in there and push the sear a little further and then it would reset and do it again. In E Mode it would chuff on every trigger pull, but would at least reset the sear on/off every time.

I aired it up today to take the video of it so you guys could see what it was doing and its yet slightly different again. Now in Mech mode, it seems to be working pretty much just fine. I didn't get the bolt to stick, chuff or not reset in anyway. However, I go into E mode on semi-auto and it fires full auto, and chuffs maybe every 3rd shot or so. If I hold it down and let it run its course, the bolt eventually sticks halfway forward, and I have to manually reset it.

Based on what I've read around here, it originally sounded like it might be a LVL X issue, but being as that it worked fine prior to installing the lowers, I'd have to suspect that its not the culprit this time. At this point I'd suspect that the plunger rod length is too long, but what's the consensus amongst the more experienced members?

[athomas]

What version of firmware are you using?

Check to see that your sear is properly clearing the bolt. You can do this with the valve out of the body. Pull the trigger in manual mode and feel the inside of the body. You will be able to adjust the plunger like this as well.

Are you using the quad oring? Check the on-off pin length as well to see if is indeed the correct one.

[BlackOps]

Crap, sorry, left out some important info. I even looked it over to make sure I had all pertinent facts.

I am using XMOD 1.8, I have verified the pin length to .712 and I am using the black quad o-ring. I am using the silver spring on the bolt. (I guess its supposed to be the red one? But it worked for me all weekend at the scenario game.)

The sear is catching in manual mode. I can see the on/off actuator come up ever so slightly through the body. Also worth nothing that when I fire semi-auto in emode, it only fires full auto while holding the trigger back, if I release it, it stops. I'm not convinced though that this is not RT effect, as I can feel the sear rod bouncing off the back of the trigger when I do this, which I guess further points to sear rod/plunger adjustment.

When measuring the sear rod and plunger length, where is the measurement to? From the end of the rod/plunger to the top of the threads? The hinge?

[athomas]

The sear is catching in manual mode. I can see the on/off actuator come up ever so slightly through the body.Actually, I was more interested in how far down the front of the sear went into the body than how far it stuck up. If it goes too far, then your trigger is pulling the mechanism too far and it is harder for the valve to reset it. If it doesn't go far enough, then the lip of the bolt may catch or not release at all.


Also worth nothing that when I fire semi-auto in emode, it only fires full auto while holding the trigger back, if I release it, it stops. I'm not convinced though that this is not RT effect, as I can feel the sear rod bouncing off the back of the trigger when I do this, which I guess further points to sear rod/plunger adjustment.This is important. This could be either a trigger stop adjustment or your solenoid is wired backwards. Check the manual for your Xmod firmware. It shows how to check the solenoid wiring using a compass. You can then fix the wiring if required and adjust the trigger stop to keep the trigger from hitting the trigger rod.


When measuring the sear rod and plunger length, where is the measurement to? From the end of the rod/plunger to the top of the threads? The hinge?The plunger length is measured from the bottom of the plunger to the end of the clevis.

[BlackOps]

Took some stuff apart today to just kind of examine it and see if anything looked out of place. I noticed that there seems to be a bit of scoring on the bolt around the part where the sear would normally catch. I suspect that its from rapid firing and I can't say for sure that it wasn't there before, but it has me concerned.

I don't think that the solenoid is wired backwards, as I got it from a guy who parted a working marker.

I'll check out the measurements later tonight.

[athomas]

I don't think that the solenoid is wired backwards, as I got it from a guy who parted a working marker.It may have been working great prior to an Xmod flash upgrade. In some modes and settings it might work fine. That doesn't mean the solenoid isn't wired backwards. You should check it.

[BlackOps]

It may have been working great prior to an Xmod flash upgrade. In some modes and settings it might work fine. That doesn't mean the solenoid isn't wired backwards. You should check it.

I'll check it anyway, but my point was that I didn't flash it to Xmod, the guy already had Xmod on it.

[BlackOps]

Well, for anyone else that has a similar problem, it was the sear rod being too long.

I checked to make sure that in emode the trigger stop was adjusted correctly. I noticed that in emode, I had to actually push the sear rod in a little bit before the hall effect tripped the solenoid. So that confirmed my suspicion that the sear rod was probably too long. I took it out and measured it, it was 2.140. I shortened it down to spec and it works like a champ.

The one thing I did notice though, was if I crank the rate of fire up past like say 15 or more, it seems that the solenoid is out pacing the guns ability to cycle. I'm assuming this is probably a function of not having enough input pressure to support that rate of fire, that sound about right?

[Ando]

Sounds like it. I "fixed" Doorss1 Xmag a few weeks ago. Anything passed 15 bps on his ninja tank which was only putting out 700 psi would chuff..doublefeed...etc.... I ran out of air on my geddon so we couldn't trouble shoot further but was running fine on it. I'm sure that's all it is bro. Get a adj tank.

[athomas]

I checked to make sure that in emode the trigger stop was adjusted correctly. I noticed that in emode, I had to actually push the sear rod in a little bit before the hall effect tripped the solenoid. The trigger rod is probably out of spec if it has the wrong measurements. You still need to adjust the trigger settings. While in emode, the trigger stop needs to be adjusted so that the trigger stops before it makes contact with the trigger rod. Then you adjust the trigger magnet to activate the HES before the trigger makes contact with the trigger stop.


To support a high rate of fire you need a tank that outputs about 850psi and has good flow rate. Another thing that can cause chuffs, is slight bolt stick. Bolt stick might not prevent the bolt from cycling, but it could slow it down. If this does happen, the valve tries to fire before the chamber gets fully charged, thus causing a short stroke.

Even though the guy before you flashed Xmod, doesn't mean it didn't have slight issues. The trigger wasn't adjusted properly was it? That means there could also be other items that weren't working 100%. The solenoid wires won't cause big issues in most cases. Just check them. If they are correct, they will allow you to fine tune your setup to maximum performance without any issues.

Your dwell setting should be 15
Your fix should be as low as it can be without full auto problems. Check the chart for this setting depending on your rate of fire and dwell.

[BlackOps]

The trigger rod is probably out of spec if it has the wrong measurements. Are you implying that there is something else wrong with it as well?

You still need to adjust the trigger settings. While in emode, the trigger stop needs to be adjusted so that the trigger stops before it makes contact with the trigger rod. Then you adjust the trigger magnet to activate the HES before the trigger makes contact with the trigger stop. Sounds good, I'll definately give it a look and double check it, I do want it to be in top running shape. However, if adjusting the rod length back to spec means that the HES is tripped just before I hit the trigger stop and I'm not bumping into the sear rod anymore, then everything should be copacetic right?



To support a high rate of fire you need a tank that outputs about 850psi and has good flow rate. Another thing that can cause chuffs, is slight bolt stick. Bolt stick might not prevent the bolt from cycling, but it could slow it down. If this does happen, the valve tries to fire before the chamber gets fully charged, thus causing a short stroke. Well, I'm using a Pure Energy tank with its normal reg, I would guess that its output is 850, but maybe its flow rate is too low. Guess I'm on the prowl for a new 4500 tank and regulator then. >.<


Even though the guy before you flashed Xmod, doesn't mean it didn't have slight issues. The trigger wasn't adjusted properly was it? Touche!


That means there could also be other items that weren't working 100%. The solenoid wires won't cause big issues in most cases. Just check them. If they are correct, they will allow you to fine tune your setup to maximum performance without any issues. Well, as soon as I can get my hands on a compass I'm gonna check it, cause god knows, I'd hate to check everything else only to come back to this and find out it was backwards and get a big fat I told you so. lol


Your dwell setting should be 15
Your fix should be as low as it can be without full auto problems. Check the chart for this setting depending on your rate of fire and dwell.

Will do, thanks for all your help in getting me up to speed on my new toy man, much appreciated.

[athomas]

Are you implying that there is something else wrong with it as well?
Sounds good, I'll definately give it a look and double check it, I do want it to be in top running shape. However, if adjusting the rod length back to spec means that the HES is tripped just before I hit the trigger stop and I'm not bumping into the sear rod anymore, then everything should be copacetic right?Yes. Plus, you may want to change the actual trigger stop and actuation point to suite your own personal preference based on how the trigger feels to you.

You can also change the amount of magnets above the trigger in the grip frame to get a lighter trigger pull too. I actually use a single magnet with a small oring under it. Just be careful to not reduce the return force too much or the trigger won't return fast enough.



Well, I'm using a Pure Energy tank with its normal reg, I would guess that its output is 850, but maybe its flow rate is too low.Pure Energy tanks should be fine. That is what I am using on mine and it works great.


Well, as soon as I can get my hands on a compass I'm gonna check it, cause god knows, I'd hate to check everything else only to come back to this and find out it was backwards and get a big fat I told you so. lolIts an easy check, so it might as well be done. If it is backwards, its an easy fix too.

Another thing to check on the emag grip frames, is the screw that holds the board in the frame. Sometimes they get corroded and lose contact and can cause issues. Yours isn't doing that, but depending on the age of the frame, it wouldn't hurt to clean the screw hole out and maybe the top of the metal post that it screws into.

[BlackOps]

Pure Energy tanks should be fine. That is what I am using on mine and it works great. Can you crank yours up all the way to 31 bps on that though?

[athomas]

Can you crank yours up all the way to 31 bps on that though?No. The solenoid won't let it cycle that fast. The valve will cycle faster than the solenoid will, even on the 850psi bottle.

[BlackOps]

Then what do you suppose is still in need of tuning to get the marker up to that rate of fire?

[athomas]

For tuning:

- Make sure your solenoid plunger length is correct. Solenoid Plunger Rod: 3.005"
- Make sure nothing is out of alignment on the sear assembly.
- Use the red bolt spring. It will allow faster cycle time than the silver spring.
- optimum level 10 tuning (very important)
- make sure the battery is good and can deliver enough current under load. Batteries are only good for about 5 years of use. If the battery has sat without a charge for any length of time, the electrodes may have sulfated, thus reducing their capacity. A reduced capacity can affect the grip frames ability to keep the sear pulled in to clear the lip of the bolt. If it rubs at all, it will slow down the bolt cycle speed and can cause recharge issues due to short stroking.

When tuning your level 10, remove all shims from the powertube. Then use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always use the same carrier oring for each carrier that you try. I suspect you have already gone through this, since you mentioned that your valve was working flawlessly before.