Smart Parts files for chapter 7 bankruptcy

[rabidchihauhau]

hope this is the right place, but anyways.

Smart Parts filed with the western pennsylvania district bankruptcy court today to convert their chapter 11 (reorganization) filing to a chapter 7 filing (liquidation).

details are up on 68caliber - http://68caliber.com/?p=8397

[zondo]

See ya!

[skipdogg]

Fantastic!

[georgeyew]

So much for all those who were holding out hope that SP will be back!

[sjrtk]

Magnificent , I really think they ended up beign a festering sore on the industry. I just wish the best for the people that they employed except there lawyers.

[CatoRockwell]

Burn burn! :mad:

Finally the beast is slain.

Now, what is going to happen to those patents?

[zondo]

I now have a rare Smart Parts progressive barrel F/S... they will not be made anymore. $75!!! :D

[rabidchihauhau]

zondo,

someone is going to buy at least some of the stuff, so your statement may not be entirely true. On the other hand, you can say "I have an SP pre-brankruptcy thingie..."

[Ratt]

Good riddance to bad business. :clap:

[BigEvil]

what about the patents?

[rabidchihauhau]

assigned to the bank when they got their loan

[maniacmechanic]

what about the patents?

Again the Big Question ,
Think of the possibilities !! With AKA reemerging into the mechanical market , what could happen there
The big thing ( as I see it ) is what will the new owner of the patents do with them ?? , could they choose not to enforce them , I suppose they could be a lot less greedy in the fees for using them

Steve , thanks for the heads up , I guess I should visit 68 Cal more often

[rabidchihauhau]

why yes, yes you should.

multiple updates EVERY FRIGGIN DAY OF THE WEEK and it is ALL PAINTBALL!!!

Got some new writers who are doing a good job and industry news coming in almost hourly, it seems.

[Ando]

The patents are only good for another 5yrs. I doubt anyone will grab them up.

[peewee]

Rumours have been floating around that Kee has shown interest in the ion/sp1 lines. I guess we just have to wait & see. I dont have the anti sp attitude that many people seem to have. I remember meeting the all americans back when they were were one of AGD's own. Whys nobody asking the big question...... AGD can we please have a new Emag???? :cheers:

[going_home]

Whys nobody asking the big question...... AGD can we please have a new Emag???? :cheers:
How about an official AGD pneumag ? ;)

[captian pinky]

how about an f*** smart parts emag lol one should be made just because

[fishmishin]

how about an f*** smart parts emag lol one should be made just because

I like the way you think !

[Ratt]

how about an f*** smart parts emag lol one should be made just because

I can see it now... The 2011 E-Mag F.S.P. :D


This issue with S.P. going bankrupt has been ongoing for quite a while. I can't remember if it was ever discussed/discovered, but does anyone know exactly how/why S.P. got to this point?

[rabidchihauhau]

speculation, but it seems as if they made a very large re-investment at exactly the wrong time.

Something like believing that the Edsel was going to sell like hotcakes and borrowing to buy the factory...

[zondo]

zondo,

someone is going to buy at least some of the stuff, so your statement may not be entirely true. On the other hand, you can say "I have an SP pre-brankruptcy thingie..."

I know..... I'm going to have to wait at least a year before their parts start becoming retro.

[jman511115]

Again the Big Question ,
Think of the possibilities !! With AKA reemerging into the mechanical market , what could happen there
The big thing ( as I see it ) is what will the new owner of the patents do with them ?? , could they choose not to enforce them , I suppose they could be a lot less greedy in the fees for using them

Steve , thanks for the heads up , I guess I should visit 68 Cal more often

Uh, what? Pardon my ignorance, I've been out of the game for a while.

[maniacmechanic]

Uh, what? Pardon my ignorance, I've been out of the game for a while.

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?26296-Interest-in-an-AKA-Autococker&p=210507#post210507

Quote:
Originally Posted by informyou

AKA is going to make a limited run of In-line MERLINS.
They will be rounded bodys that will take slider or hinge frames.
There will be mini's and full length.
The thought is now that these will be new milling patterns,
and the body, front block and screw will come together.
Many aftermarket parts are still around and you can mix and
or match or buy everything that AKA offers.
(Time frame 6-8 weeks)

Quote:
Originally Posted by docfire
I emailed AKA this morning on old stock with prices this is thier responce
"Hello, We are currently working on producing a new run of Merlin Inline bodies. Give us a couple of weeks, they will be put on our web site. Eileen"

Start saving your $$$

[ProblemKinder]

Again the Big Question ,
Think of the possibilities !! With AKA reemerging into the mechanical market , what could happen there
The big thing ( as I see it ) is what will the new owner of the patents do with them ?? , could they choose not to enforce them , I suppose they could be a lot less greedy in the fees for using them

Steve , thanks for the heads up , I guess I should visit 68 Cal more often


it's possible. however, we are talking about a bank here... :rolleyes:

[teichild]

sorry for my ignorance... but how will SP going out of business help AGD?

[halB]

Can I spell schadenfreude? Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude all up in this mother. SCHADENFREUDE!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Now, might I ask some paintball company to sue in order to invalidate the patents? I don't think SP is going to have that crack legal team to help them anymore.

[halB]

I can see it now... The 2011 E-Mag F.S.P. :D


This issue with S.P. going bankrupt has been ongoing for quite a while. I can't remember if it was ever discussed/discovered, but does anyone know exactly how/why S.P. got to this point?

Because in court, good things take a long time, bad things happen quickly. ;)

[Ratt]

Because in court, good things take a long time, bad things happen quickly. ;)

Good point...

[SockMonkey]

sorry for my ignorance... but how will SP going out of business help AGD?
Its my understanding that AGD had to halt production of the Emag because they were being sued by SP for some patent or some BS like that. With them out of the way AGD could potentially produce a new Emag. (which would be AWESOME!!1!11)

[eckoblazer]

Reading this makes me look back and see how much the sport really has changed in the last decade. I remembering drooling over shocker 4x4's and being ecstatic once I finally acquired an All American barrel for my mag. Smart parts used to make all of my dream gear, and now they are added to the list of scrap pile companies. I know we all love to "piss on their ashes" but come on take a step back and realize what they actually did do for the sport before they got greedy.

We all love our deadly wind barrels, couldn't use them without the freak....

Splash mags? Yeah smart parts again...

Besales parts? Try getting them back in the day if smart parts didn't distribute them...

Shocker? First affordable electro, still expensive at the time but half the price of an angel...

I love my AKA's as much as the next guy and I don't support some of the business practices smart parts used, did they get what they deserved? Maybe, but I'll just sit here holding my shoebox shocking thinking of the good old days


:ninja: Flame Suit on :ninja:

[rabidchihauhau]

ecko

I'm sure that what you experienced was true to you - but as you are well aware, not everyone has the same opinion - either of their products, their business practices or anything else associated with them.

halB - the patents have already been upheld IN COURT. It would be a major uphill battle to do what you suggest and the outcome would most likely be a failure of the attempt.

[spantol]

halB - the patents have already been upheld IN COURT. It would be a major uphill battle to do what you suggest and the outcome would most likely be a failure of the attempt.

Do you recall which court case that was? I had been under the impression that all of the suits were settled out of court. The notable exception being the WDP case that established Dr. Hansel as a co-inventor, free to sell his interest to WDP directly. By going that route, WDP didn't have to try to get the patent overturned.

[cockerpunk]

Its my understanding that AGD had to halt production of the Emag because they were being sued by SP for some patent or some BS like that. With them out of the way AGD could potentially produce a new Emag. (which would be AWESOME!!1!11)

not gonna happen for so many reasons ...

who buys the patents (which could be the gardners) will buy them for the same reason the gardners had them - to make money. that means we arn't going to see a new era in paintball innovation becuase SP went under, that IP is still out there, and until its public domain, its going to be used by someone to make money.

long and short of it - this doesn't change much. teh garnder brothers will still be in paintball, probably through GImilsim. and the patents will still be out there for poeple to abuse.

[El Camino]

How long are the patents good for? Different patents, different amount of time?? Can you renew a patent??

[vf-xx]

How long are the patents good for? Different patents, different amount of time?? Can you renew a patent??

20 years. No.

[tosburn3]

Prediction: DLX buys up all necessary patents for the Impulse and manufactures them with the Luxe. The Luxe will be the last remnant of the Shocker. DLX also buys the patents for the Freak Barrel. GI Milsim runs away with the Ion.

[leloup]

In some cases you can actually renew your patent. This will most likely (99%) not be able to.

I don't know about Kee, if you read some of the legal documents, I think they had a stake in Smart Parts, whether there were partially invested in them, or a supplier I am not sure, but Kee will be a little hurt from this I think.

[MANN]

I would be surprised if the patents were not already owned by someone other than smart parts. (the company not the brothers)

[halB]

Do you recall which court case that was? I had been under the impression that all of the suits were settled out of court. The notable exception being the WDP case that established Dr. Hansel as a co-inventor, free to sell his interest to WDP directly. By going that route, WDP didn't have to try to get the patent overturned.


You are correct... most likely. You can never know if you have found everything out there, but I just searched and the ONLY case involving smart parts that comes up is the WDP case, which is unpublished but still cited to for its agent/principal and summary judgment decisions.

[Newt]

20 years. No.
Yes. There are two types of patents. One is for new breeds of plants (ie: a bigger seedless watermelon), the other is for inventions. The latter is good for five years, and can be renewed for up to 20 years total. It gets way more expensive each time as well.

[rabidchihauhau]

You are correct... most likely. You can never know if you have found everything out there, but I just searched and the ONLY case involving smart parts that comes up is the WDP case, which is unpublished but still cited to for its agent/principal and summary judgment decisions.

Settled out of court - but with the approval of the court. the WDP-Smart Parts-Dye case was settled between the parties but it is a court approved settlement that VALIDATES and acknowledges the supremacy of the SP patents.

Regardless of how or why the agreement went down the way it did, SP got what they were looking for: a court document that states that their competitors acknowledged that their patents cover their products and that they are obligated to license in order to build.

This in fact makes the patents very strong - not weaker as some of you are implying.

[rabidchihauhau]

on patents

guys - your tax dollars pay for the USPTO and, by law, they have to provide you (for free 'cause you already paid for it) with all of the information and explanations about patents and how they work that you could ever possibly want to look at.

Instead of repeating misinformation, misleading information, partially correct information and out-right bad information - why not go and get some of your tax dollars back in the form of free information?

Visit www.uspto.gov, click on patents and have fun!

[Predator-KMK]

Karma run over them with a 22 wheeler...

[Ando]

If I remember correctly, it take an act of congress to renew a patent over 20yrs. Special circumstances which paintball isn't one. :rolleyes:

[the mag guy]

If this is legit I say we knock on AGD's door and see what their going to do about it! The speculation is killing me! If and when the new emag or pneumag rolls out I'll be one of the first in line! Perhaps if we all expressed interest in a new emag that might inspire some peeps at AGD to see what they can do!

Personally I remember the smart parts of old and how everyone used to covet their products. This goes to show you what happens when people get greedy. I do not like what they did to the industry recently and I'm glad to see them go. I am really hoping some good comes from the technology they tried to suppress and exploit.

Lets hope for the best! :cheers:

[WUNDERWAFFEN]

Wow everybody forgets that Smart Parts invented the $100 barrel way back when. Logically it was at least twice as good as the $50 competition.

[druid]

Prediction: KEE buys up all necessary patents for the Impulse and manufactures them with the Luxe. The Luxe will be the last remnant of the Shocker. DLX also buys the patents for the Freak Barrel. GI Milsim runs away with the Ion.

fixed for the more rich of the two companies

[MedicDVG]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Gardner's (or their proxy) ends up buying the patents from the bank at fire sale prices.

I have said it before -- love them or hate them, the Gardner's are anything but stupid. They will manage to leech back out of the slime and will be making money (well for themselves if not any particular company) -- which they have been very good at. I would suspect that the patents themselves will be the engine for that money stream. I mean what better option -- go to chapter 7 liquidation, be the first in line to purchase the assets through a NEW and improved company they control that is not associated with SP (*cough* GI Milsim) and presto, the gravy train continues. The only thing we can hope for is that there is a well funded competitor who gets into a bidding war for the patents and drives the price up so high that the Gardner's can't control them anymore.

Which in itself is kinda a 3 headed hydra type of situation as whomever can buy them from under SP/Gardner's will also need to defend and enforce the patent and licensing agreements...

Just guess we will have to wait and see.

End result in either case, neither of the brothers will be at the soup line any time soon.

[Hobbez]

Don't be surprised when GI Milsim ends up with all those patentts.

[cockerpunk]

Don't be surprised when GI Milsim ends up with all those patentts.

i also predict that GI Milsim is the lifeboat.

[CatoRockwell]

So we just need to make sure GI Milsim is enough of a dirty word that they go under as well.

[questionful]

I think others have also said something like this. I just want to add my speculation to the thread.

Perhaps SP didn't even need to file bankruptcy, and they're just doing it as a marketing ploy. To get rid of a bad name or something. Perhaps we're all cheering and speculating but completely clueless. Maybe this move by SP is bad for paintball. Who knows. I hope not.

Anyway, while I think it was horrible what SP did with the patents, now I don't care too much because high ROF isn't even that big a deal. People used to play stock class and still have tons of fun.


What I would like to see from AGD is an automag with a body and frame suited for accepting a drum magazine! Instead of changing magazines, you just re-wind the magazine and feed it with an extra large re-loading hopper. I think it would be an improved version of the warp feed.

[Mayvik]

What I would like to see from AGD is an automag with a body and frame suited for accepting a drum magazine! Instead of changing magazines, you just re-wind the magazine and feed it with an extra large re-loading hopper. I think it would be an improved version of the warp feed.

It's called an FN303.

[paullus99]

After reviewing SP's financials, they were in terrible shape - starting in 2009. They made the mistake of taking out some very large bank loans for new equipment and the such (the patents ended up as part of the collateral) at exactly the wrong time.

When the economy went into the can, the bank called in the loans (PNC) and it killed SPs available cash reserves. The Chapter 11 was supposed to give them time to reorganize, but given the weak state of the economy (and the paintball market in general), none of the plans met with PNC's approval.

At this point, a receiver will be appointed, whose job will be to evaluate the remaining company assets vs. the outstanding claims by creditors & try to start paying them off with whatever is available. These are usually fairly thorough processes and are vetted by the Courts, so I doubt the Gardners would be able to pull a fast one and grab the patents without paying a premium - since they'd be up for sale on the open market.

Of course, since the economic still stinks, those patents aren't worth nearly as much as they would be in an up-economy, so we'll see what happens. This isn't a quick process and could drag out for a couple of years, so if the patents do expire soon, they'll get less valuable each day that goes by.

With a Chapter 7 on their records, it will be very difficult for the Gardners to secure additional financing for new projects - banks, especially today, aren't likely to back a loser - and venture capital isn't available in the paintball market, it's too niche without a big upside.

With AKA, I believe the final agreement on E-Markers was with the Gardners & not SP, so that prohibition is still valid (as much as it still sucks).

[questionful]

It's called an FN303.
I forgot about that. I just googled it. It's kinda what I mean, except it only holds 15 rounds. I was thinking something more like 100+.

[Tracy_ptp]

It's called an FN303.


Forest actually designed the original and it was called the UTBPS.

[vf-xx]

It's called an FN303.

MMmmm.... rework the FN303 to use a standard mag valve (not the high velocity version they're running now), and release it as a FS marker...

Drool.

[factoid]

Burn burn! :mad:

Finally the beast is slain.

Now, what is going to happen to those patents?


They'll be sold. A competitor will buy them up and continue to milk them for as long as they're worth something.

Smart Parts dissolving really will have little impact on the industry. Their technology will be sold off, their patents will be sold off, their remaining stock will be sold off. Some other manufacturer will make use of the parts and probably even continue some of the smart parts brands, at least the ones that still have value.

The two most likely outcomes are that one company will come in and buy up the majority of Smart Parts' IP (intellectual property) and hang onto it, reusing what they feel is good and hanging onto the rest to keep it away from competitors. The other likely outcome is that they'll be picked apart piece by piece with bits of smart parts tech going in all different directions.

The least likely outcome with a Chapter 7 proceeding is that someone will come in and buy the company whole. That would have happened either before or during chapter 11. Once a company hits Chapter 7 it's usually because there were no buyers at the table and all they have left to do is liquidate assets like patents, brands and inventory.

[factoid]

If I remember correctly, it take an act of congress to renew a patent over 20yrs. Special circumstances which paintball isn't one. :rolleyes:


You make a good point. I have no idea what the relevant patents are dated, but considering that the first electro markers started showing up in 1997, and were probably in production and filing patents a couple years before that I'd say the first batch of patents is due to expire in 2015 or so.

That's still worth something considering that the electro market is pretty dominant these days, but given market conditions and the state of innovation in the marketplace I don't see where those 5 years are worth a whole lot to people.

I imagine that if AGD hangs on for 5 more years they'll be free and clear to produce electropneumatics again regardless of how this SP thing shakes out, which is likely to take a year or two anyway.

[cockerpunk]

They'll be sold. A competitor will buy them up and continue to milk them for as long as they're worth something.

Smart Parts dissolving really will have little impact on the industry. Their technology will be sold off, their patents will be sold off, their remaining stock will be sold off. Some other manufacturer will make use of the parts and probably even continue some of the smart parts brands, at least the ones that still have value.

The two most likely outcomes are that one company will come in and buy up the majority of Smart Parts' IP (intellectual property) and hang onto it, reusing what they feel is good and hanging onto the rest to keep it away from competitors. The other likely outcome is that they'll be picked apart piece by piece with bits of smart parts tech going in all different directions.

The least likely outcome with a Chapter 7 proceeding is that someone will come in and buy the company whole. That would have happened either before or during chapter 11. Once a company hits Chapter 7 it's usually because there were no buyers at the table and all they have left to do is liquidate assets like patents, brands and inventory.

GI Milsim with buy up the guns and the patents if they can.

[Ando]

April 2016 is the year of the paintball!!!!

The year the patent will die and everything will get back to "normal" so to speak.
Who ever takes it is going to pay way too much and make a complete loss from the royalties. There's not enough time left on it I would say.

[madmatt151]

I have been away from AO for some time and am just getting back to reading the forums again. While I am an old schooler and remember the days of the early Smart parts and the cool splash parts for my Mag, I don't see what will change if the patents expire. All I see now in the industry and on the fields are TONS of electros. What did Smart parts do to slow that down??? I see a dozen or so manufacturers making electronic guns and more coming everyday. What will change by them going bankrupt (which we all know does not mean they are going away)

[cockerpunk]

i think the damage is done. when the patent expires there isn't going to be a huge flurry of innovation and new guns. sure, some companies might be a hefty profit boost and might pass that on as better RnD or cheaper guns, but the damage the patents did has been done.

[halB]

Settled out of court - but with the approval of the court. the WDP-Smart Parts-Dye case was settled between the parties but it is a court approved settlement that VALIDATES and acknowledges the supremacy of the SP patents.

Regardless of how or why the agreement went down the way it did, SP got what they were looking for: a court document that states that their competitors acknowledged that their patents cover their products and that they are obligated to license in order to build.

This in fact makes the patents very strong - not weaker as some of you are implying.


What I am saying is that because it was settled out of court, we do not know on what issues it was settled, and therefore the law of the case and res judicata do not apply. Therefore, there is no precedent suggesting the patents are valid. The courts have not ruled on this.

edit: And supremacy of the patents? I wouldn't throw around legal terms incorrectly.

[factoid]

April 2016 is the year of the paintball!!!!

The year the patent will die and everything will get back to "normal" so to speak.
Who ever takes it is going to pay way too much and make a complete loss from the royalties. There's not enough time left on it I would say.

Is anyone actually paying them royalties? I have been absent from paintball for a long time and in catching up with the happenings I've read quite a bit about Smart Parts and their patent lawsuits, but there's a big lack of discussion happening between around 2003/4 and 2010. Seems that in 2001 Smart Parts was awarded their "electro" patent which was filed in Jan 1996 which makes the expiration 2016 as you say.

Seems like they started making revisions to get it broaded for the next couple of years and then started suing people for royalties and license fees in 2003/4.

After that the only thing I read is that they lost a couple of lawsuits trying to shut down other electro manufacturers.

So do people actually pay SP for every electro sold? Back in 2003 the speculation was that they wanted a million dolllar up-front and 75 bucks per marker. I can't imagine they actually got that, but clearly it was enough to scare some of the competition out of the market.

A quick glance shows me that smart parts, planet eclipse, spyder and Angel all make elctros, so clearly they didn't succeed in cornering the market...but the question is do those others all have to pay licensing fees. Anyone know the answer to that?

[rabidchihauhau]

What I am saying is that because it was settled out of court, we do not know on what issues it was settled, and therefore the law of the case and res judicata do not apply. Therefore, there is no precedent suggesting the patents are valid. The courts have not ruled on this.

edit: And supremacy of the patents? I wouldn't throw around legal terms incorrectly.

HalB - I was writing for a paintball forum where I've written TONS (far too much) about Patent law and various other issues relating to intellectual property. If this had been a law school forum, I'd have used the proper word(s) and definition based on Blacks.

The settlement in question was devised for the court's approval and was vetted by the judge in the case.

One of the terms in the agreement (two in fact if I remember correctly) expressly acknowledged the validity of the SP patents in terms of the art in question; various parties may still be able to litigate - but it's going to be pretty hard for them to over come their own sworn testimony: they helped to craft the agreement.

[Skeeter]

I have been away from AO for some time and am just getting back to reading the forums again. While I am an old schooler and remember the days of the early Smart parts and the cool splash parts for my Mag, I don't see what will change if the patents expire. All I see now in the industry and on the fields are TONS of electros. What did Smart parts do to slow that down??? I see a dozen or so manufacturers making electronic guns and more coming everyday. What will change by them going bankrupt (which we all know does not mean they are going away)


I'll just jump into the shark tank for a few lines of text (I missed the entire 2nd page of posts, so this may have been discussed already).

SP did NOT slow the industry down, but it DID cost everyone with an electronic marker (and some without) a small fortune to play the game... From FEES, to lawyers, to broken or destroyed companies, to harming GOOD people (Jerry Dobbins), SP has hurt the sport of paintball more than most people will EVER know. SP and their "business" practices CHANGED the sport for the worst... Even with interpersonal relationships... Just ask Tom and Bud, how the industry changed, due to SP...

When the IP (patents) become "public" in a few years, then anyone and everyone who has a FRESH idea on how to build a paintball marker, will have a level playing field to enter onto. There are a few VERY innovative ideas that have been "almost" ready for prime time, from as far back as 1999 or 2000 (anyone curious about the Phantom Revolution?). There are still existing patents that won't expire for a while, so no everybody can just build another M-98 or E99, but there are LOTS of smart (yes, the inuendo makes me smile) people in this industry, and the death of SP (and the expiration of their patents) is a GREAT thing for the sport.

RIP (Rest In Purgatory), SP...

[SOUP]

^ well said. Hopefully when the patents expire we will see the change in the industry.

On a side note, Did Smartparts sue deadlywind or try to at least? I remember DW had a marker in the makings and smartparts shut them down. Can anyone confirm?

there was a video on youtube with someone shooting the DW marker... but I cannot find it.

[druid]

If it wasn't done by SP, Bob Long, Budd Orr or any one of those guys would have picked up that ball and run with it too...

Kee and NPS has been no better, nor DXS/Halo....

so while you are all thumbing your noses at SP...start sharing the hate to the ones who do it TODAY....

[going_home]

^ well said. Hopefully when the patents expire we will see the change in the industry.

On a side note, Did Smartparts sue deadlywind or try to at least? I remember DW had a marker in the makings and smartparts shut them down. Can anyone confirm?

there was a video on youtube with someone shooting the DW marker... but I cannot find it.


http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1724246&page=52

10-29-2006, 04:13 AM



Deadlywind is not your typical run-of-the-mill companies. I am a tinkerer. Most of the time I post about the things that I am tinkering with, either for input or to contribute to the common knowledge for others. If what I work on shows promise of good results, then it has the possibility of becoming one of our products. Some things get re-broadcast and hyped up out of proportion with the expectation of it becoming a full product.
There are always reasons beyond my control why some things which were highly expected to make production or continue production, didn't. I don't air dirty laundry.

A solution is to go the way of the "big boys" and develop in secrete and keep everything out of public until its 100% ready to go, but then people get mad that they were kept in the dark.

Yes, the Aedes is based on an MQ valve. The recent "issues" surrounding the MQ is one of the main holdups with the Aedes progressing. I nor Deadlywind have any associations with PBX or Mel. I will not comment on any rumors or about any of the IP "issues", etc surrounding the MQ valve.

So, forget about the Aedes for now. It does not exist.... until the day it does. Someday maybe everyone can go crazy about it again-- but with it in their hands this time instead of just reading about it.

Colin



:ninja:

[SOUP]

Yep... I was about to fix my post about the deadlywinds thing. important stuff is in the bold.

I sent them an email, here is their response-

No, SP didn’t do anything. There were some flaws with that Aedes platform and to get them all worked out would have taken more resources than we had.



We do still have plans tho for a marker some day!


Thanks-

Colin

[halB]

If it wasn't done by SP, Bob Long, Budd Orr or any one of those guys would have picked up that ball and run with it too...

Kee and NPS has been no better, nor DXS/Halo....

so while you are all thumbing your noses at SP...start sharing the hate to the ones who do it TODAY....


Budd Orr may have eventually sold out, but he was one of the first generation of paintball product producers. I doubt any of those guys would have done what SP did. Bob Long came along later, but he always seemed more interested in making the sport look better than in shutting down companies. I doubt he would have acted like SP either.

[cockerpunk]

If it wasn't done by SP, Bob Long, Budd Orr or any one of those guys would have picked up that ball and run with it too...

Kee and NPS has been no better, nor DXS/Halo....

so while you are all thumbing your noses at SP...start sharing the hate to the ones who do it TODAY....

i don't buy that for a second. having met and talked with the gardner borthers, they are the poeple who do this kind of stuff. everything about what happened made perfect sense after speaking with them in person.

sure, patents would have come into the paintball world, but not in the same way, and not with the same power and application. the hisotry of paintball has peremenently been effected by the massive insecurity of the gardner brothers.

[skipdogg]

Interesting news article talking about new funding for the US patent office..

http://www.jsonline.com/business/100407419.html

[going_home]

Interesting news article talking about new funding for the US patent office..

http://www.jsonline.com/business/100407419.html

Good ole "GWB" never ever saw a spending bill that he wouldnt sign.
"O" is walking right in his footsteps only faster.

Where is all this money going to come from, thats what I want to know.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the US economy is treading water now,
but make no mistake, it will soon sink.
And then the NWO people can follow their long held plans and change the currency.



:ninja:

[CatoRockwell]

Good ole "GWB" never ever saw a spending bill that he wouldnt sign.
"O" is walking right in his footsteps only faster.

Where is all this money going to come from, thats what I want to know.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the US economy is treading water now,
but make no mistake, it will soon sink.
And then the NWO people can follow their long held plans and change the currency.



:ninja:
Don't worry they think they can just keep printing paper money to fix all their problems. Thats how we'll pay for it, in the devaluation of the dollar.

They think they can just live off of debt forever and that the day of reckoning will never come.

God Bless America :tard:

[Thotograph]

Pan-Amero's here we come :headbang:

Hoorray SP financial meltdown... Anyone else feel like shooting an Ion with a 12gauge just to see what it does?

:dance: Banana-Man does!

:shooting:- - - - - - - - take that SP - - - - - - - -:cuss:

[bound for glory]

people out of work. funny stuff :(
give this country a few more years and lets see how many people will be playing paintball.
when the rumors of smart parts troubles begain to get all over the net, i call them to see if they had any good deals...yeah, like a vulture. see if i could drive up(i'm in pa. now) and get a shocker on the cheap for my boy. the girl was just about in tears when i talked to her. said she was kept in the dark about the whole think. she said the brothers kept saying it was all good.
let me tell you guys something. i'm a history teacher. i grew up in new jersey. i lived on the same block, in the same little town. got married and lived on that same street.
i make crap money as a teacher. i had to get a part time job at m&m to keep ahead. we have one child. i could'nt afford to live in my state. in my town. on my street. :confused:
so i had to move to this hick town in pa. up in the coal mineing hills. where everybody seems to be on wellfare. nobody seems to work. think bush was bad :rofl: this idiot the people wanted is gonna kill this country.
but i'm glad his wife is taking alot of vacations :rolleyes: my fanily could'nt afford one this summer

[KillerOfGiants]

but i'm glad his wife is taking alot of vacations :rolleyes: my fanily could'nt afford one this summer

i'm sure they'll send you a post-card.

[bound for glory]

is that suppose to be funny? :cuss: idiot. you must have voted for the "novelty" of having a piece of dog :cuss: in office. try working 2 jobs.
i for one, feel bad that some office people and warehouse staff are getting the boot because the great brothers could'nt even come clean to the people they should know.





Edit........Your a teacher and I had to do an edit. Nice. You know the rules here. Follow them when you post here. If you cant please dont post here.

[OPBN]

Interesting the disparity between teacher salaries from state to state. Teachers here in Ohio seem to be pretty well paid.

I don't really have feelings either way about SP going under since I kind of came in after all the crap went down. I would like to see another generation of AGD electro though it doesnt seem like it's going to happen.

[mag79]

is that suppose to be funny? :cuss: idiot. you must have voted for the "novelty" of having a piece of dog :cuss: in office. try working 2 jobs.
i for one, feel bad that some office people and warehouse staff are getting the boot because the great brothers could'nt even come clean to the people they should know.

The pres may be an idiot but he's not to blame for you picking a profession that doesn't pay well.

It does suck that people are loosing there jobs, but do you really believe that their employees were blind to their situation.

[bound for glory]

first, do some real reserch, teacher have HISTORICLY been paid low wages. i can't even beleive theres still people who don't know that. #2 not cool telling me if i can't follow the rules "don't post here". i don't have a history of being banned or getting warnings. could have just pm'ed me...
and yeah, i think i beleive the girl on the phone was telling me the truth.
heres the thing: this smart parts thing is waaaay past played. it was played 3 -4 years ago. "i hate smart parts"..."smart parts sucks"...smart parts ruined paintball"..."smart parts made me catch cold". smart parts is(or was) a business. they were underhanded, yes. they wronged many and all they cared to. but they did it to make money.
bob long said to me and a friend once(at national paintball), "i know the timmys aren't very well made, but the kids are buying them...guy did'nt care. he just wanted to make money. and i'm not saying bob did'nt come off as an alright guy.
now, here on ao, most are happy smart parts are bankrupt. thats fine. maybe theres so many members here who are so well off that it does'nt mean a thing a few dozen(i'm guessing) people are gonna lose thier jobs. fine again. but ya know what? not a thing will change.
think tom's gonna wake up tommorow and make a new gun? sounds great. but i can't see it happening. and i'd never speak for the man myself. think those pats. smart parts owns just ...what?
we automaggers are a weird bunch. we pay very high prices for old tech guns. now don't start going nuts! its very HIGH quality stuff. but in our hearts we know its passed by. and i'm a automag snob myself. got the 3rd mag sent to new jersey. i've owned 2 automags, 3 micromags, 2 r/t pros, 1 emag and a devilmag. i have passed up playing (for free) at emr paintball because i'm mag-less. i just won't play without a mag(and tbh, a warped mag ;) )
but there are downsides...my boy is just about old enough to play, and i bought him a model 98 and i thought i'd put togeather an emag for this old man. guess what, i am put off on what it would cost me to put one thgeather. i want to play ball with my son, but i guess it will be with something else. and that sucks.
and if i beleived the soft parts were gonna be around for awhile, i'd get a shocker.

[halB]

is that suppose to be funny? :cuss: idiot. you must have voted for the "novelty" of having a piece of dog :cuss: in office. try working 2 jobs.
i for one, feel bad that some office people and warehouse staff are getting the boot because the great brothers could'nt even come clean to the people they should know.





Edit........Your a teacher and I had to do an edit. Nice. You know the rules here. Follow them when you post here. If you cant please dont post here.


You're not a history teacher. I heard most teachers have class.

[OPBN]

Hoping to God he isn't an English teacher. As for working two jobs, you do what you have to do. Perhaps you should have done more research before spending 4yrs of college preparinig for a career that you feel is undercompensated. One of the reasons I didn't go into law enforcement 20 years ago is that I didn't feel like getting shot at for $20k/year starting salary. And as I said, I am surprised at what seems like a pretty big disparity from state to state for teachers salaries. I think starting salary locally is in the $30k or so range. Considering they only work for 9 months out of the year and get full insurance coverage for themselves and their families, it seems pretty good to me. Of course, their standards are high, and the majority have masters level degrees, or are working towards them.

Regardless of all this, blaming the crash of SP or your personal financial issues on a president that has only been in office for less than two years is a bit silly. With that said, I didn't vote for him, and looking forward to the end of his term.

[halB]

Hoping to God he isn't an English teacher. As for working two jobs, you do what you have to do. Perhaps you should have done more research before spending 4yrs of college preparinig for a career that you feel is undercompensated. One of the reasons I didn't go into law enforcement 20 years ago is that I didn't feel like getting shot at for $20k/year starting salary. And as I said, I am surprised at what seems like a pretty big disparity from state to state for teachers salaries. I think starting salary locally is in the $30k or so range. Considering they only work for 9 months out of the year and get full insurance coverage for themselves and their families, it seems pretty good to me. Of course, their standards are high, and the majority have masters level degrees, or are working towards them.

Regardless of all this, blaming the crash of SP or your personal financial issues on a president that has only been in office for less than two years is a bit silly. With that said, I didn't vote for him, and looking forward to the end of his term.

Let's be honest, do you think this guy could work any job and NOT be amazingly bitter and hateful towards the world?

[CatoRockwell]

I actually believe public employees are overpaid. Like what was previously stated, teachers in particular only work 9 months out of a year, with full benefits, etc...

If you go into work for the government you go into it for security, government jobs are the most secure and least likely to have layoffs, you don't go into it for the big bucks. You want to make a lot of money? Put together a good resume and get hired in the private sector.

I'm sorry if civil servants feel entitled to better wadges, but I feel entitled to the fruit of my labor and when I am getting taxed at a 30% bracket it's really hard to justify to me that I need to dump more money into an education system that simply does not work.

Lets use another example, on a local level we apparently have enough police officers that they can spend all day driving around writing up tickets for traffic violations. They want us to increase public spending on them. Well I think to myself, "wait a minute, if there are so many cops and so few crimes that they don't have to spend their time focused on real crime. Why should we spend more money?" If anything it sounds like they need a budget cut.

Now I agree that our scumbag president, heck I think it's fair to say that our scumbag leaders (at least 95% of them are scumbags) don't deserve the money or perks they have with their office.

I could go on and on about how annoyed I am that the government always wants more of my money.

But back to Smart Parts, good riddance to bad rubbish. Trying to justify their actions by saying "business is business" is the most pathetic argument I've heard. Just because it's business does not mean you should engage in dishonest or shady practices. There are plenty of examples of businessmen who have honesty and honor.

As for the employees I won't speak for them individually, but unfortunately thats what you get for working for a company like Smart Parts. Its not like it was a big secret that they were run by scumbags.

I'm having a really hard time seeing how anyone can feel bad for, or think that Smart Parts going out of business is bad for the sport. If anything it shows that their actions had reprecussions, lets hope that dishonesty is similarly rewarded throughout the sport.

[Piranti]

Currently, most Government sector jobs are being paid up to TWICE what the same job in the public sector would get. On top of that because most belong to some union, they beef up their paychecks the last year to raise their pension for life. 100k invested, 3m return, math doesn't add up why states and municipalities are going bankrupt.

Anyways, Smart parts issue...

1. Bad because some folks losing their jobs.
2. Good, Gardener Bro.s no longer hold the patents to bully other PB Companies around. (as long as they don't try to end around buy them from the bank that currently owns them).
3. Possible good when the Patents become public domain, but only time will tell there.



PS. I hardly believe you are a teacher with the way you have posted. If you are I really feel for students under you, and our education system. (And yes I do work for an company in the Education sector)


Those who can't, Teach.

[cockerpunk]

i like how anything bad happening to anyone in the entire USA can be blamed on "this novelty peice of dog ****" that we elected.

OMG, some poeple some where had something bad happen to them? must be that damned obama again! OMG, poeple who worked for the garnders lost there jobs becuase of bad managment and a poor business plan? OBAMA you struck again!

:rolleyes:

for wanting the government to be smaller and get out of our lives, you sure can blame everything that happens on the government .. :tard: the market spoke, and the garnders paid the price. no on in any elected office had anything to do with it.

[halB]

i like how anything bad happening to anyone in the entire USA can be blamed on "this novelty peice of dog ****" that we elected.

OMG, some poeple some where had something bad happen to them? must be that damned obama again! OMG, poeple who worked for the garnders lost there jobs becuase of bad managment and a poor business plan? OBAMA you struck again!

:rolleyes:

for wanting the government to be smaller and get out of our lives, you sure can blame everything that happens on the government .. :tard: the market spoke, and the garnders paid the price. no on in any elected office had anything to do with it.


You would think those good, honest, god-fearing folks would worship obama if he displayed such omnipotence.

[cockerpunk]

You would think those good, honest, god-fearing folks would worship obama if he displayed such omnipotence.

eh, its part of the new news cycle which fox news has evolved from the 24 hour news cycle. i call it "if it happens, its bad for obama. if it didn't happen, its still bad for obama. if it could possibly happen, its bad for obama. its bad for obama, doesn't matter what it is"

even when obama does what they want, its still bad for obama. like before the oil spill when obama said he would open up some of the coast to more drilling (drill baby drill anyone?) it was still bad for obama.

everything negative ever can be linked to him, by some crazy, distorted glenn beck chalkboard style rant. its a very bizarre social phenomina, almost like a mis-personification of ideas, or maybe just political angst. im not sure, but it is very troubling.

[factoid]

Not sure how this thread got so political.

But since we're already in that mode:


Jimmy Carter invented paintball! George W Bush prefers Cockers to Mags! Obama plays stock class! Discuss!

[CatoRockwell]

Not sure how this thread got so political.

But since we're already in that mode:


Jimmy Carter invented paintball! George W Bush prefers Cockers to Mags! Obama plays stock class! Discuss!

Jimmy Carter was a socialist so if he did play paintball he would have made sure that everyone had the same brass eagle guns to be fair.

Bush probably prefers whatever marker dick cheney told him to prefer.

Obama would be on the lines of Jimmy Carter, only if you are white or christian you can't play.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Let the flaming begin :rofl:

[cockerpunk]

Jimmy Carter was a socialist so if he did play paintball he would have made sure that everyone had the same brass eagle guns to be fair.

Bush probably prefers whatever marker dick cheney told him to prefer.

Obama would be on the lines of Jimmy Carter, only if you are white or christian you can't play.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Let the flaming begin :rofl:

in fact, i have it on good authority that obama is commissioning the design of the "volksgun"

also, the new accepted way to signal you are out is a one handed, open palmed, flat hand raised just 45 degrees!

:rofl:

[bound for glory]

:rofl: i guess its ok to question my choosing to be a teacher. and the wise remarks are funny, too ;) but you should hear what we teachers say about the kids you send to us. and it is'nt just me :spit_take
i just was saying i felt bad for the girl on the phone. they someone has to ask if i beleived her... :rolleyes: right. because she worked for smart parts she was a bad person ;)

[CatoRockwell]

:rofl: i guess its ok to question my choosing to be a teacher. and the wise remarks are funny, too ;) but you should hear what we teachers say about the kids you send to us. and it is'nt just me :spit_take

I don't send my kids to public schools ;)

Seriously though, I think teachers would get farther on getting a bigger budget if instead of targeting the taxpayer, they targeted other branches of the government to transfer funding, you'll find you get a lot of support from the people to move funding from beauracrats or all the other wasteful departments of the state to teachers. I hate public spending, but public schooling is definitely the lesser of evils in my book.

[factoid]

in fact, i have it on good authority that obama is commissioning the design of the "volksgun"

also, the new accepted way to signal you are out is a one handed, open palmed, flat hand raised just 45 degrees!

:rofl:


I hear that Ronald Reagan wanted to build a scenario field out of rubble from the Berlin Wall.

And the going all the way back in history the real reason that Robert E. Lee surrendered after his loss at Gettysburg is because Abe Lincoln bunkered him in the nuts and he swore off the game forever.

[going_home]

eh, its part of the new news cycle which fox news has evolved from the 24 hour news cycle. i call it "if it happens, its bad for obama. if it didn't happen, its still bad for obama. if it could possibly happen, its bad for obama. its bad for obama, doesn't matter what it is"

even when obama does what they want, its still bad for obama. like before the oil spill when obama said he would open up some of the coast to more drilling (drill baby drill anyone?) it was still bad for obama.

everything negative ever can be linked to him, by some crazy, distorted glenn beck chalkboard style rant. its a very bizarre social phenomina, almost like a mis-personification of ideas, or maybe just political angst. im not sure, but it is very troubling.


Er. I dont know what to say about such ignorance.
You obviously havent seen or heard of CNN, the very first 24 hour news network.
And you havent seen the actual videos of them making up news as they went
from Desert Storm ?

Oh yeah it was before your time so it must not exist ?
All you do is bash Fox News when CNN is the king of what you are bashing Fox for.

You arent going to get away with your one sided stuff here.
This isnt techpb.

Heres the truth that no one wants to see, you included.
Its all a shell game on both sides of the isle.

Both sides get their talking points from the same sources.
Both sides my friend. Both sides.
You didnt like the white pretender in chief so they gave you a bi-racial one now.

If you think this ones any better than the last one you are sadly mistaken.
This ones just better at lying then the last one.
Better get your head out of the sand.

Stick with the testing paintball stuff, something you guys seem to be pretty good at.
Leave the political stuff to the idiot talking heads and politicians we pay to ignore us.

:ninja:

[cockerpunk]

Er. I dont know what to say about such ignorance.
You obviously havent seen or heard of CNN, the very first 24 hour news network.
And you havent seen the actual videos of them making up news as they went
from Desert Storm ?

Oh yeah it was before your time so it must not exist ?
All you do is bash Fox News when CNN is the king of what you are bashing Fox for.

You arent going to get away with your one sided stuff here.
This isnt techpb.

Heres the truth that no one wants to see, you included.
Its all a shell game on both sides of the isle.

Both sides get their talking points from the same sources.
Both sides my friend. Both sides.
You didnt like the white pretender in chief so they gave you a bi-racial one now.

If you think this ones any better than the last one you are sadly mistaken.
This ones just better at lying then the last one.
Better get your head out of the sand.

Stick with the testing paintball stuff, something you guys seem to be pretty good at.
Leave the political stuff to the idiot talking heads and politicians we pay to ignore us.

:ninja:

what side am i taking? im not pitting one news network against any other, i said nothing about CNN or any other news source. that doesn't matter. i like the quip about techpb too, classly, also nonsensical becuase techpb doesn't allow political threads. nice try though.

what im talking about is how no matter what happens, on Fox News, its bad for obama. if you have ever watched Fox News for more then a mintue, its plainly obvious that is the message. even when obama does something the right wing likes, its still bad for obama, and hes still an evil man.

if you want to refute that point, your welcome to try, becuase you didn't present any evidence to contrary in this post.

[going_home]

what side am i taking? im not pitting one news network against any other, i said nothing about CNN or any other news source. that doesn't matter. i like the quip about techpb too, classly, also nonsensical becuase techpb doesn't allow political threads. nice try though.

what im talking about is how no matter what happens, on Fox News, its bad for obama. if you have ever watched Fox News for more then a mintue, its plainly obvious that is the message. even when obama does something the right wing likes, its still bad for obama, and hes still an evil man.

if you want to refute that point, your welcome to try, becuase you didn't present any evidence to contrary in this post.

I presented the exact opposite, CNN.
Its the other side of the coin from Fox.

The other side of the shell game.
Thats why they dumped Beck.

This is like the 4th time in different threads you go to the same talking points
about Fox and Beck.

Do you actually think it accomplished anything in any of the threads ?

/echo

:ninja:

[cockerpunk]

I presented the exact opposite, CNN.
Its the other side of the coin from Fox.

The other side of the shell game.
Thats why they dumped Beck.

This is like the 4th time in different threads you go to the same talking points
about Fox and Beck.

Do you actually think it accomplished anything in any of the threads ?

/echo

:ninja:

there isn't an other side of this conversation. this isn't news network vs other news network.

this is "nearly everything on Fox News is presented in such a manner that makes it look bad for Obama" vs "Fair and Balanced Fox News"

you have to present an argument that deals with point i made. otherwise your not posting anything relivent.

if you disagree with my point, present a counter point. bringing up CNN or any other news source is not a counter point.

[Ando]

LoL...

This Thread = WAY OFF TOPIC :p

[factoid]

I presented the exact opposite, CNN.
Its the other side of the coin from Fox.

The other side of the shell game.
Thats why they dumped Beck.

This is like the 4th time in different threads you go to the same talking points
about Fox and Beck.

Do you actually think it accomplished anything in any of the threads ?

/echo

:ninja:


So your argument is basically: Fox News missed the "target" to the right by a foot, and CNN missed it to the left by a foot, so on average we're all screwed?

I think you grasp of both mathematics and politics are a little lacking.

Edit: And Ando, I saw the same thing which is why I tried to threadjack it, but it didn't stick.

[cockerpunk]

So your argument is basically: Fox News missed the "target" to the right by a foot, and CNN missed it to the left by a foot, so on average we're all screwed?

I think you grasp of both mathematics and politics are a little lacking.

Edit: And Ando, I saw the same thing which is why I tried to threadjack it, but it didn't stick.

im just not sure how pointing out the flaws in the other, already belittled, 24 hour networks does anything to discredit the point that everything is bad for obama when its on Fox News.

k, you expect me to defend CNN? cuase im not going to ... i never said i would, and in fact, i already talked poorly about the 24 news cycle they invented. so why does bringing them up have anything to do with anything?

it doesn't. he doesn't have a counter-point becuase there isn't a counter point, at least a rational and defendsable one.