Acceptable Anodizing flaws?

[OPBN]

Today I finally received my E-mag lowers back from the nearly 5 month+ vacation it had at the anodizer. I am seeing some flaws, such as a "water stain", pitting, missed spot, and dings that were not in the part when it went out. Are these considered acceptable flaws? Granted, I don't do this for a living, so I am not certain what level of quality is to be expected, but am I asking too much? Interested in feedback.

Thanks.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/oldpbnoob/Anojob002-1.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/oldpbnoob/Anojob005.jpg

[vf-xx]

Going to go with 'NO'.

[Ratt]

Five months is way too long. Five months for a crappy anno job is way WAY too long. As far as "level of quality to be expected", that depends on the anodizer. Did you use a anodizing company, or did you send 'Chuy's Garage/Home operation"? Any reputable anodizer would (or should) not have taken 5 months, and then send you a botched job as payment for your long wait.
You could raise a stink about it with the company/guy, but the best case scenario is he tells you to send it back and he will redo it. But who's to say that it won't take another 5 months?
I would probably send pics to the guy, and request a refund, then find someone else to use for anno, with the expectation that the guy is not going to give you a refund.

[Ando]

Unacceptable. The pitting means the guy left in the bath too long. Doubtful he'll give you your money back. If he's a known anodizer on any of the forums. I would take pics of everything, send him a copy and tell him your going to post this in his dealer thread if he doesn't either fix (in a timely manor) or refund your money so you can get it done by someone else.

[OPBN]

What I don't quite understand is why there would be pitting. The parts were sent already bead blasted as I had Luke perform this service before sending back so that they would be clean and ready. Am I missing something in the process?

[Spider-TW]

What I don't quite understand is why there would be pitting. The parts were sent already bead blasted as I had Luke perform this service before sending back so that they would be clean and ready. Am I missing something in the process?
Are all of the parts equally pitted? Some aluminum parts will pit more than others when stripped too long. Also, if they had some corrosion previously, bead blasting (and a rough finish in general) hides pores and pits very well. Usually a heavy ano coat will fill the small ones in (up to 1 to 2 mils).

If you haven't, you might try rubbing the "stained" areas with something moderate like a paper towel. Sometimes the stain is just excess dye sitting on the surface that dried after coming out of a hot seal bath. I burnish my home ano'd parts lightly with 0000 steel wool on the flat areas after sealing; leave sharp corners alone since the ano gets thinner there anyway.

[OPBN]

There was no corrosion on the parts prior to beadblasting. Only the top part of the battery box appears to have that amount of pitting. the frame, and other parts are clear. I have used water and a towel to try and wipe off the stain. Nope.

[Spider-TW]

I have an SP "s" asa rail that pitted like that when re-ano'd. I can't tell if it was because the part was cast aluminum or if it was just the poor alloy. Was that an AGD part originally?

[OPBN]

I have an SP "s" asa rail that pitted like that when re-ano'd. I can't tell if it was because the part was cast aluminum or if it was just the poor alloy. Was that an AGD part originally?
Its the top of an E-mag battery box. See pics above.

[OPBN]

Here's a pic of the lowers just prior to being packaged up and shipped out to the anodizer. Note no nicks in the battery box or pitting:

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/oldpbnoob/BP_style_3_wFrame-1.jpg

[BenoitOWN]

You know that some anodizer use some wire to hold the part in the bath? Nicks could be the result of it.

Spot with no ano could be from shipping.

[OPBN]

You know that some anodizer use some wire to hold the part in the bath? Nicks could be the result of it.

Spot with no ano could be from shipping. No other part has nicks like these. Each part when I received it was individually bubble wrapped inside a box filled with popcorn. I don't see how that could be from rub since no other part is showing signs of similiar rubbing.

I do feel I need to add one comment. I used a middle man for this transaction. The person I paid did not do the actual anodizing, he had the parts sent to someone that he uses for other projects. IMO, even if he did not do the actual anodizing, I still feel he is fully responsible for the results/flaws.

My reasoning for creating this thread is to get feedback to make sure I do not have unreasonable expectations. This was my first experience with getting something anodized, and I thought I was taking good precautions in choosing someone reputable to handle it for me after reading some of the horror stories posted here and elsewhere about bad ano jobs. I actually turned down one localish anodizer after seeing a posting of some awful work he did. At one point, about 3 months in, I contacted another anodizer who said he would get it turned around for me quickly if I got it back from my original guy and sent it to him. I was assured at that point that it would only be another week or so... 2 months later, this is what I got.

I will also add that the frame is really decent. I have no real complaints about that. I also had 5 barrel backs that came back prior that were stripped and clear anoed. Those look good as well. Only complaint on those is they werent marked or anything to keep track of the sizes.

[questionful]

****. I would say you should publicize the pictures with the name of the anodizer after confirming that it was his fault, but not ask for a refund or do-over. The parts are going to get played with right? They're bound to gradually acquire little surface imperfections like that anyway. And you can always paint/sharpie the little dings to make them invisible at a glance.

They're sick lowers, even with the minor surface finish imperfections. A little bull**** always has to be dealt with and I don't think you got it TOO bad.

Though I understand that when a gun is a work of art, the details matter a lot. But one way of looking at it is that wear adds character.

[OPBN]

While I realize that comparably, it isn't a lot, I do have over $800 invested in this marker. You really think I should just put up with it because wear adds character? Really?

[questionful]

Well, also because you might not have another option. Say the guy doesn't want to refund you or do it over. Then your only other options would be to sell it and buy another or just pay more for a re-ano. And iirc re-ano'ing further worsens tolerances.

I was just trying to offer a viewpoint that might make it easier to let go and have a more "****-it" attitude which makes life a lot easier.

[Spider-TW]

The real question is "do you think the guy can do better?" When something doesn't come out right, you have to wonder if was lack of skill or lack of attention. Questionful is right, you loose about 0.001 on a surface on re-ano. That block by itself probably wouldn't matter so much as a rail, so it could probably be re-ano'ed if the problem isn't in the aluminum itself. If the aluminum is different, you need someone that knows what to do with it, but then you have to worry about starting with someone else and matching dyes.

Anodizing (generally) eats about 0.001 from the surface to build a good 0.002 layer. When you strip it off, you loose that original 0.001. I've had parts with very thin ano (stripped very quickly) come out to the original dimensions though.

[OPBN]

I have no idea if he can do better. I have seen other work he has contracted, and it looks great.

[maniacmechanic]

hey I just charged a guy for a V-8 but gave him a V-6
Acceptable Anodizing flaws , or do you want to describe , just sloppy work
I wish I could get away with doing 80 % of my work the right way & to heck with the other 20%
Anno is a Science ( thats the way I see it ) Experience is the teacher , your reputation is the product you sell
At least this didn't happen to you ; http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=252291
BTW you can say who did the work

[Frizzle Fry]

...looks like it was poorly spraypainted.

Let us know who this was, please. Regardless of how they "make it right" or what excuse they use for the poor turnaround and bad quality of the work, people should know to avoid this joker. That's a pretty sad attempt; I did better myself with my own ghetto rigged setup when I tried my hand at anodizing, and it sure as hell didn't take 5 months... Then again, I didn't have to mail it to myself...

[Warwitch]

Every time I even hear the word "anodizing" my blood pressure spikes.

Best of luck to you bro. These guys almost never claim responsibility. If anodizing is not what they do FULL TIME, as their sole source of income, then youre probably getting a cut rate quality job.

[OPBN]

I am waiting for the individual to even answer my emails at this point. I got the final parts today, emailed him after getting some initial feedback here and waiting for his reply. I wanted to be sure my expectations for quality weren't unrealistic. I think more than a few of you may be a bit surprised as to who it is.

I can already answer the turnaround time. It was blamed on the actual anodizer getting backed up and their jobs getting put to the side. As I did mention, the person taking on the work was handling it as a middleman. Hoping he will make good and maybe shed some light on who actually did the work so that we can all stay away.

[OPBN]

hey I just charged a guy for a V-8 but gave him a V-6
Acceptable Anodizing flaws , or do you want to describe , just sloppy work
I wish I could get away with doing 80 % of my work the right way & to heck with the other 20%
Anno is a Science ( thats the way I see it ) Experience is the teacher , your reputation is the product you sell
At least this didn't happen to you ; http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=252291
BTW you can say who did the work
Actually, it pretty much did. I was however told from another member that this actually isnt that uncommon.

[Ratt]

If the guy who did your anno is the same guy that Mongoose uses, I would let him re-anno it (if he offers to redo it). Not only have I received new parts from him (Noxious rail body, snatch grip), I had him anodize previously-anodized parts (Intelliframe, vertical asa, trigger, RPG foregrip), and as far as I am concerned, they were all near-flawless jobs.

[Drix]

+1 to sharing who the annodizer was. Every item sent out of his shop he should be proud of, so it makes sence that he is proud of the work that he sent you as it is a representation of his quality. If that quality is not up to your par then he should swallow his pride and re-do it to your specs for customer service.

Making a post about someone who's done a shoddy job but not naming them is doing the annodizer and the paintball community a dis-service. You can explain in your post, what happened, and then later what great customer service the guy had and it would be a bonus in his pocket. To not name names just means that the next poor guy down the road to pick him might end up with the same hack job because this guy diddn't step up his work.

[C_losjoker]

can i ask, what was the reason for using a middle man? most time when using a middle man it seems that there are always more headaches then going directly to one doing the job.

and once the ano was done, were the parts shipped back to the middle man, or directly to you? if the middle man did see them and sent them on to you, without letting you know anything ahead of time, i would say this is bad on both the ano and middle man. if i was playing the role of the middle man, and though i did not do the work. i would still be pissed that this would come from the ano guy, would have contacted you and see what you wanted to do/work out. i would just feel that my name would be attached to the work, so i would want it done right.

[CatoRockwell]

I don't know if you were using mongoose. I did and they did an awesome job. Yes it took five months, but I am very happy with the end result. I bet mongoose will make it right for you if it was him. He's slow to respond to emails, but he takes care of you.

http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz94/catorockwell/E-Tac003.jpg

[OPBN]

1. Multiple reasons for not specifically naming the person that I sent the parts to. First, I hadn't gotten things worked out with them. Naming and shaming isn't necessarily going to help my case for getting it fixed or compensated. Also, I had more or less hoped that they would potentially come on here, see the thread and explain the situation themselves. I understand perhaps he is busy and not on the forum much, so not sure how to judge that. Mainly though, I wanted to wait until he and I had somewhat resolved the issue before posting names/outcomes.

2. The reason I used a middle man or contractor was hopefully, to avoid issues like this. After seeing multiple threads about ppor quality, long waiting periods, I thought it made more sense to use someone that is "in the business' so to speak and has a good working relationship with a specific anodizer and would insure a good outcome. Is an anodizer going to give me, someone who is sending one $150 job, the same care and attention to quality that he might with someone who is spending considerably more and a regular customer? Maybe yes, maybe no. Again though, I felt using someone with the right contacts it would tip the odds in my favor. Apparently it didn't.

3. Cato and Ratt, good for you. I have seen your thread, loved the outcome and hoped mine would come back as good as yours. It didn't. Mongoose/Christian is the person that I used. The explanation that I was given last night was that the original Anodizer that he was going to use was so backed up that he went with Plan B anodizer that he has used in the past a few times. i have mixed feelings on this, as I feel that if there was any doubt about the quality of the work that the anodizer could do, it should have been mentioned. I further feel that the flaws should have been caught prior to sending them back to me. As of last night, Mongoose has offered to either have the battery box redone, or refund my money so that I can have someone else do it. Again, I am not certain as to what to do since I do not want to wait another 5 months to get my parts back and not sure if I want to risk taking further material off of the battery box in fear that it might make the fit too loose or cause some other issues. There is also the concern that the colors might not match since Christian has stated that he will not use the same anodizer for the job.

[Mongoose]

Out of all the anno jobs/parts we have had done, this is the first mistake that was sent out to the customer.
I would like to apologize for both the delay in time and also the final product.

As many know we do not directly do the annoing....but we do take complete responsibility for any mistakes.

We have been having issues with our prime anno shop....so we setup with another that did good work.
I did not expect the work to come out sub par.

We have offered to redo or refund the parts that were poorly done.

We currently also have another anno shop that we are trying out.. Our EP bodies are being finished up there this week.

Anno is not an exact science, mistakes and errors will happen. We are using Professional Anno Shops. We will help fix this mistake and continue to strive for the highest quality our customers deserve.

Again, i'm very sorry you had a bad experience with us, we will do everything we can to correct our mistakes.

Christian

[Drix]

Thank you for sort of dropping names. Mongoose remains on the top of my choice annodizer list even though this was a foul up because of his prior reputation. I'm glad to hear it's not someone like grunt who's been fouling stuff up for months now.

[Warwitch]

Anno is not an exact science, mistakes and errors will happen.


This is what I always have a problem with. (Christian this is not in reagards to you, just anodizers ;) ) Anodizing IS an exact science. There is just a general lack of care/quality control when it comes to the paintball industry. Time and time again I see stuff leaving these shops that is not even remotely quality oriented. And the funny thing is, RARELY do I ever see an anodized product on a shelf at Wal-Mart with poor quality. And still again, many "professional" ano places are just bathtub setups in a garage. There is very little control in these places. And thats why stuff comes out shoddy. Are they precisely regulating the chem temps? Did they do the research to find out what type of aluminum allow was used to make your marker body/parts? Probably not. So they have already set themselves up for failure.

The aerospace industry gets stuff anod all the time. Do you think they put up with the same lack of care?

Let me put it this way: go look at any random part that comes off PK Selectives line. It will be immaculate. Because they work FOR professionals and thats whats expected. PB ano guys are used to dealing with 15-25 year olds and dont really care if you dont like what you got. Unless you make a stink about it.....

[BigEvil]

Let me put it this way: go look at any random part that comes off PK Selectives line. It will be immaculate.


Want to put some money on that one Simon? :D

[Mongoose]

This is what I always have a problem with. (Christian this is not in reagards to you, just anodizers ;) ) Anodizing IS an exact science. There is just a general lack of care/quality control when it comes to the paintball industry. Time and time again I see stuff leaving these shops that is not even remotely quality oriented. And the funny thing is, RARELY do I ever see an anodized product on a shelf at Wal-Mart with poor quality. And still again, many "professional" ano places are just bathtub setups in a garage. There is very little control in these places. And thats why stuff comes out shoddy. Are they precisely regulating the chem temps? Did they do the research to find out what type of aluminum allow was used to make your marker body/parts? Probably not. So they have already set themselves up for failure.

The aerospace industry gets stuff anod all the time. Do you think they put up with the same lack of care?

Let me put it this way: go look at any random part that comes off PK Selectives line. It will be immaculate. Because they work FOR professionals and thats whats expected. PB ano guys are used to dealing with 15-25 year olds and dont really care if you dont like what you got. Unless you make a stink about it.....

I hear what you are saying, and i can agree on most of it, however all those things you see at Wal-mart....for every ten on the shelf they threw away 3 due to defects and flaws.
No one Anno's in a bubble...so you will have variables that you cannot control and have to deal with. I can not agree that it is 100% science.

PK Selective huh.......... :ninja: I've heard of them

[Drix]

Difference between wal-mart and the paintball world is the manufacture of product. Walmart's suppliers can throw away product that comes out shoddy because the consumer would never notice. I think you'd be pissed if someone threw away your e-mag lowers because the quality was not up to spec.

[BigEvil]

I hear what you are saying,


"I believe I hear what you are saying... "

http://southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com/shared/sps/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_13/sp_1309_clip09.jpg

[Warwitch]

Want to put some money on that one Simon? :D

You know what I mean. :rolleyes: Do does it go back to the customer like that on the regular? And look at the track record over the millions of jobs done.

Of course places like Wal-marts producers throw stuff back. The point is they deliver GOOD products to the customer. They dont just say "well, thats how they came out.." and send them to Wal-mart anyways. PB ano guys have a knack for doing exactly that. And thats just not acceptable when you consider the amount of money invested on many custom markers.

The difference is that Wal-mart has the volume of business to actually hurt a company that doesnt provide results. Where as a (likely) one-time paintball ano customer taking his business elsewhere doesnt make much of a big deal.

Edit: youre right 'goose, its not 100% science. But its nowhere near a guessing game. These guys make it sound like Voodoo. The more control you have in ANY process method the less varied your results will be.

[cockerpunk]

the biggest difference between walmart products and our stuff is that the guys who anno walmart stuff have 3-4 months at the start of manufacture to dial in every detail exactly right. becuase they know the size, shape, metals, coatings, everything going into there tanks, they can exactly plan for the process and make it nearly error free with only a couple of iterations.

in paintball, those guys have no idea what alloys and of what quality are beign dunked in there tanks. they have no idea how well stripped and cleaned, and cleaned with what ... it all just goes in the tank, and its frankly a bit of crap shoot. this is one of the reasons i suspect shops take forever to anno crap, i think they give it 3 or 4 ties to get it close.

my emags anno looks like crap these days (its an OLD gun), but i have always hesitated becuase of the above mentioned things.

[C_losjoker]

at the end Mongoose let one get through and yep that will happen no matter who you are and how careful you are. What speaks volumes about you is that you step up, admit your mistake and make it right. And that is what Mongoose is doing, he is making it right, cased closed.

[Ratt]

at the end Mongoose let one get through and yep that will happen no matter who you are and how careful you are. What speaks volumes about you is that you step up, admit your mistake and make it right. And that is what Mongoose is doing, he is making it right, cased closed.

I concur.

[OPBN]

my emags anno looks like crap these days (its an OLD gun), but i have always hesitated becuase of the above mentioned things.
Honestly, I would 100% concur with this statement. Had I known the issues it would bring up, I would have just left well enough alone. So far, the following holes are too large and I am having to find alternatives or IMO Jerry Rig solutions: Negative pin hole, trigger pin hole, top drivers side grip hole, board mounting hole, and the bottom of the magnet hole in the frame is all but non-existent.

[Ando]

That's a lot of issues.

[OPBN]

That's a lot of issues.
I would agree. The question has been raised a couple of times as to whether the parts had been anoed prior. The finish on all the parts was factory gloss black prior to getting milled and beadblasted. I've also just noticed that the battery pack now wobbles quite a bit. I don't remember it doing this before.

[BigEvil]

. I've also just noticed that the battery pack now wobbles quite a bit. I don't remember it doing this before.

That's actually the new Venomous Designs Variable Geometry Battery Pack :D

[Ando]

I'm going to measure out a few of those parts that went out on yours and see how much meat is actually there. If what Spider-TW actually said is true about how much of the metal gets eaten, (I don't know myself, I would have to research that) then it would take a good 8-10 reanno's to get to where you are now if say the thickness of the magnet hole was .010 thick.

I don't see that many anno's as a possibility.

I'll get back with the measurements here in a few.

[Spider-TW]

A single type II ano pass can't eat much more than that 0.001. The pores get too deep and the layer starts to insulate the base metal from the voltage. You can always over prep though. Stripping is where you can loose more than a little.

[Ando]

Top magnet hole is .014in thick. :tard:

I know for a fact the lowers I measured got re-annoed at least one other time besides the original anno.

[Spider-TW]

Top magnet hole is .014in thick. :tard:

I know for a fact the lowers I measured got re-annoed at least one other time besides the original anno.
Yeah, that's not just anodizing.

[CatoRockwell]

OPBN, I'm sorry your sick lowers turned out so ****ty. That would piss me off to. I'm confident Mongoose will make it right with you. I bet he's already called his annodizer pissed with the results.

I'll count my blessings that mine turned out as well as it did.

[p8ntbal4me]

Want to put some money on that one Simon? :D
:rofl:

[p8ntbal4me]

The guy that did my VER frame and Phoenix parts did mention to me that the frame will have a small mark where the frame was held in the vat.

You have to be looking to find it though,.. Im very happy with their work.

All the other pieces were free from marks.

~ P8nt