Electronic vs Electro Pneumatic?

[KillerOfGiants]

Alright, I was going to have to ask this question sooner or later. But what's really the point between having a straight electric sear-tripping frame from an electro pneumatic sear-tripping frame? Seems like it'd be a lot more clutter to have the LPR and lines on something like an EgoMag or Logic UMF versus a cleaner straight electro set-up like a DevilMag or VER Mag. Anyways, just been curious because the EP mags are starting to intrigue me more these days and was curious if there's any real advantage. Thanks.

[Spider-TW]

EP mags are more forgiving for tripping the sear. If you are building your own, you have a fairly wide envelope to get things lined up and working. EM mags are usually more finicky. Instead of matching LPR pressure to the on/off force, you have to match solenoid current peaks to the on/off force. It's usually easy to just add extra air pressure, but it's hard to squeeze a strong solenoid and its electronics in there. If the frame isn't made for a solenoid and an automag, getting the sear lined up can be tough.

[KillerOfGiants]

I see. Much like tuning a Pneumag comared to tuning an Intelli/ULT.

[Spider-TW]

Yes, just another level of tech and tuning to make your own, whereas you already know how LPRs work. The only trick with the solenoid valve is to not over power it.

The key to EMs is to pick a solenoid that fits and has enough force to push the sear. Spyder noids are big, so usually the sear gets modified. For a small noid you figure on using a switching circuit that only runs for about 10 milliseconds per shot, which puts you on one side of the force and duty charts. Those noids are hard to come by in single quantities. Getting it all balanced out and packaged in the frame is worth some money.

Imo, you also have to like your mags a lot to build your own EP or EM mag. By the time you do that, you could have rebuilt any good common electro with the money and knowledge. I've built an EP and rebuilt a few 2k3 to 2k6 electros, and I'm still more comfortable the EP or a mech mag. Comfort counts too. I think that is what has kept me away from spyder mags; I don't want to mess with the frame.

[athomas]

Its all a matter of power source.

Electro pneumatic control uses the power contained in the compressed air to do the work of tripping the sear. Compressed air has a lot of energy stored. You can use a much smaller(less powerful) solenoid to control the low pressure air source. The smaller solenoid uses less power so a smaller battery can be used.

Electric sear tripping requires all power to come from the battery. This requires a delicate balancing act of tuning so that you have enough power to reliably trip the sear in every instance while conserving energy so that you will have plenty of capacity in your battery to last for as many shots as needed for a day of play.

[KillerOfGiants]

thanks for the responses. they have really simplified it for me. curious about tackling an EgoMag or better yet... EAAAAG!

[p8ntbal4me]

This should answer your questions about the E-Noid frames.....

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251927

[Flatliner333]

Do most solinoids have the same plug for the board? I have had to replace two Spyder noids now on my E frame because the wires are so fragile and are always breaking.Is there a better solinoid anyone would suggest that would plug into a Virtue Spyder board. I was looking at an EP noid from a Diablo Wrath and wondering if it would work if I went with an EP conversion on my Mag ?

[athomas]

Each gun manufacturer uses its own proprietary connectors. They may be the same on some guns, but it is just coincidence if they are.

[Flatliner333]

The before mentioned EP Noid looked like it had two air ports on it, are most EP noids this way.Would that be an inlet port and an exhaust outlet port or are they both inlets?

[p8ntbal4me]

Do most solinoids have the same plug for the board? I have had to replace two Spyder noids now on my E frame because the wires are so fragile and are always breaking.Is there a better solinoid anyone would suggest that would plug into a Virtue Spyder board. I was looking at an EP noid from a Diablo Wrath and wondering if it would work if I went with an EP conversion on my Mag ?


99% of the boards use JST connectors.

I can make and sell you spares if they break or you want extras

[p8ntbal4me]

Each gun manufacturer uses its own proprietary connectors. They may be the same on some guns, but it is just coincidence if they are.


Where did you read that?

In a small way,.. thats a good way for a manufacturer to not sell a new marker. Making it home to proprietary parts is a way to eliminate the aftermarket parts market for companies that offer such wanted items like "fancy circuit boards"

Virtue, Hater, Tadao, SP, WDP/APS, WGP, WAS, (ect) all use JST connectors for their OEM and aftermarket boards.

AGD and Racegun electronics are the only 2 that come to mind that use Molex connectors. Both OEM boards are no longer made.

The R&D investment to make your "own" connector housings, pins, manufacture them, make the tools to crimp with, manufacture those too, pitch all this to other manufacturers of parts to "join the bandwagon", is a small fortune.

For me to have the design for the Planet Eclipse E1/E2 sear solenoid modified from what it already is now (lesser width), make new tooling to manufacture, and test a single proto-type,... is $10,000.

That was 3 years ago at 3 year ago copper prices.

[factoid]

Where did you read that?

In a small way,.. thats a good way for a manufacturer to not sell a new marker. Making it home to proprietary parts is a way to eliminate the aftermarket parts market for companies that offer such wanted items like "fancy circuit boards"

Virtue, Hater, Tadao, SP, WDP/APS, WGP, WAS, (ect) all use JST connectors for their OEM and aftermarket boards.

AGD and Racegun electronics are the only 2 that come to mind that use Molex connectors. Both OEM boards are no longer made.

The R&D investment to make your "own" connector housings, pins, manufacture them, make the tools to crimp with, manufacture those too, pitch all this to other manufacturers of parts to "join the bandwagon", is a small fortune.

For me to have the design for the Planet Eclipse E1/E2 sear solenoid modified from what it already is now (lesser width), make new tooling to manufacture, and test a single proto-type,... is $10,000.

That was 3 years ago at 3 year ago copper prices.

They are standardized, but there's a ton of different types of molex and JST connectors available to use. I think the Solenoid wires are mostly JST 2pin connectors, but there are some molex 51021-0200 ones as well and you can make or buy adapters pretty easily.

[p8ntbal4me]

They are standardized, but there's a ton of different types of molex and JST connectors available to use. I think the Solenoid wires are mostly JST 2pin connectors, but there are some molex 51021-0200 ones as well and you can make or buy adapters pretty easily.

Im going to look this up,... JST and Molex both told me that their parts would not be adaptable without making splices.

My crimpers for both male and female ends cost me over $800.

[athomas]

Where did you read that?Referring to proprietary connectors, I meant that they each use different sizes and pins for i/o. Each board pin layout is different from the next.

[hill160881]

I really like the feel of my ego-mag vs the hyper mags iv used in the past. i hate egos but love there trigger, and the frame and mod is abt 400. Loguzzzzzz did the mod and it ripps flawlessly. just need eyes milled now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7kjFdloRQ8

[Spider-TW]

just need eyes milled now.
Have you had an occasion where you think it would have made a difference? I've been happy with the level 10 and a b2 loader. The only benefit I can think of is that you'll skip the level 10 catching at the end of the loader, which might save you a couple of chuffs, but I use that as quiet reminder to load. I always shoot under 15 bps though.

[hill160881]

Have you had an occasion where you think it would have made a difference? I've been happy with the level 10 and a b2 loader. The only benefit I can think of is that you'll skip the level 10 catching at the end of the loader, which might save you a couple of chuffs, but I use that as quiet reminder to load. I always shoot under 15 bps though.

I just want the marker to not chop. i unfortunately like to shoot above 15 bps and markers without good functional eyes usually chop on me no mater the hopper. The eye mod is only another $100 or so and at this point that is not to much. And the board will not go above 15 bps with the eyes off, and i would like to cap it at 20 bps. assuming the noid and ram can handel it.

Edit. anyone know who i can get to do the eye milling and plates to cover them? i read Luke customs somewhere but not sure who to contact.

[p8ntbal4me]

Edit. anyone know who i can get to do the eye milling and plates to cover them? i read Luke customs somewhere but not sure who to contact.


I PMed you about the milling and eye covers