I don't get it...I really dont.

[Gibripper75]

So I am getting back into paint ball, after 3 years of hiatus I wanted to come back with a Mag. I always wanted a Minimag, but now I have pieced together 68 classic. I have a bunch of guns and here is what I have concluded and don't understand....

AGD's have to be the easiest and simplest guns I have ever worked on. They shoot great and I am loving...yes loving, the twist lock barrel design. I mean it makes sense to have the ball already breached in the barrel-> smooth exit. Super high quality materials all around. Rock solid gun...

So why the heck aren't they in high demand anymore?? I have a bunch of Tippmanns and their basic internals design really hasn't changed in like 20 years, so why is it when I go into my local Paintball shop I am told my Automag is old technology?? I mean if it aint broke then why fix it? The army still uses the 1919 Browning don't they? I like having and things that not everyone else has (Palmer Stroker)but this isn't really helping out AGD as a company. Just my 2 cents.

[OPBN]

Here's the kicker.. the new Tippmann Phenom essentially uses the same "old technology" as an E-Mag...

[hill160881]

The mini is a mini e-mag. hell its a blow forward and even looks like a e-mag, even when taken apart, minus the reg on the back of the valve.

Same with the tippman TPX pistol. Blow forward and looks like a mag when apart.

One wonders if TK helped or if they just blatantly copied the design.

The reason AGD went down hill was they would not change the design to a low pressure design. That is what sold markers. Wether or not low presser is of any benefit is beside the point because that is what sold markers. That and a constantly changing body design to keep up with whats new and cool(hype).

But they are not gone yet and there are some very cool mods for the mag, pretty much what ever you want to do is possible with a mag.

[cyberave68]

So I am getting back into paint ball, after 3 years of hiatus I wanted to come back with a Mag. I always wanted a Minimag, but now I have pieced together 68 classic. I have a bunch of guns and here is what I have concluded and don't understand....

AGD's have to be the easiest and simplest guns I have ever worked on. They shoot great and I am loving...yes loving, the twist lock barrel design. I mean it makes sense to have the ball already breached in the barrel-> smooth exit. Super high quality materials all around. Rock solid gun...

So why the heck aren't they in high demand anymore?? I have a bunch of Tippmanns and their basic internals design really hasn't changed in like 20 years, so why is it when I go into my local Paintball shop I am told my Automag is old technology?? I mean if it aint broke then why fix it? The army still uses the 1919 Browning don't they? I like having and things that not everyone else has (Palmer Stroker)but this isn't really helping out AGD as a company. Just my 2 cents.
OK so i have to ask, How old are you? In todays market age is the biggest facor in buying a marker. Most of the younger generation is about the new HYPE> this one shoots faster, it weights 1/1000000th lighter than last years model, blah blah, BLAH. It becomes a status symbol of how AGG you are. I have had a fews different types of markers, tho i like my e-tac the most, i enjoy playing pump for the SKILL of the game/gun, not spray and pray...

Its nice to see another fellow baller who has picked up the mag fever, though i warn you watch your wallet. Its going to get a BIG hole in it soon...LOL

:cheers:

[hill160881]

A black hole in the wallet is what he ment. Im like 1200 in this one and not even anodized yet. But nothing looks or shoots like it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7kjFdloRQ8

[aerosaaber]

I just picked up my first mag after getting a chance to borrow one from a guy at my field.
Had a blast playing all day, so I decided I'd get one. Can't go wrong with a marker that's dead reliable and doesn't require batteries (my first marker was an ion which is very battery picky)
I played all day with the tacamo gravity feed and only out shot it like twice so I don't even need a battery operated hopper for it(yet)

I'm still figuring out what I want as far as a rail goes and probably a ULT.

There are a lot of killer looking body and rail combo's but they're all too rich for me at this time.

[going_home]

Personally I dont care for the twist lock barrel system.
Its large and bulky and sometimes pretty weighty.
I prefer to be able to use my barrels on all my markers.
Cocker threading is the best IMHO.
Most newer markers are all coming out with cocker threading.

Even the new Trracer is cocker threaded.


;)

[factoid]

twist-lock barrels are super convenient for servicing. I like them a lot for that...but they were bad for a number of reasons.

For efficiency: You can't directly match the bolt to the breech so you lose transfer efficiency with every shot. It's not a massive loss, but it's there, especially with large bore barrels.

For manufacturing: It's more expensive and more complicated to manufacture

for accuracy: the twist-lock barrel has quite a bit of "wobble" in it. It may not be all that significant except at very long distances (probably longer than most paintballs travel) but it's there.

As for the markers themselves, I think AGD was a victim of the electro era. They, for some reason, were not able to successfully license the technology (either it was too expensive, someone didn't want them to have it, or they weren't willing to pay) to keep making electronic guns, so they couldn't really maintain relevancy with that part of the market.

There's still a pretty devoted following though.

[maniacmechanic]

There's still a cult following though.

fixed

[Gibripper75]

Cyberave68...I am 30 I got into paint ball in 2000 first with a...you guessed it 98 custom. When all was said and done I had dropped $400-500 in a 98C, yeah I know. Bought a Spyder a few months later (2001) sold it in the same week>>Never again. Still am a Tippy guy, why? I love things well made...Period. AGD and Tippmann strike me as well made. The last Tippy I bought new was a A-5 when they first came out like serial #1000, the newer stuff I can pass on. I wish all the best to AGD in their future and I will be intently following them.

[Tombola]

Yes, AGD lost it in the electronic market. But there is still one for mechs, especially as rentals. Automags are a bit more expensive then 98Cs, but they are much more reliable. And how much cooler it whould be for a newbie to play with a mag?

[Tunaman]

Highest quality markers ever made. For this and many other reasons...like being the fastest too...are the some of the reasons that the Mag will never go away. Long Live AGD!

[factoid]

Fingers are crossed that the Smart Parts bankruptcy/buyout enables AGD (and other manufacturers who were driven out / stepped out of the electro market) to get back into the E-Mag and X-Mag...maybe a next gen ULE EP-Mag? That's where I'd go if I was AGD...today's tournament level markers are at least a pound lighter than emags....so if you switch to EP you can drop the heavy battery pack.

Anyone hear anything new about White Hats LLC and their buyout offer for smart parts? Have they or anyone else been successful in making a deal yet? Seems like it's been quite a while since anything new came out. Smart Parts has been dead long enough now that if there wasn't a serious buyout offer in the works then the court receiver would have already had an asset liquidation auction.

[SteelSoul]

Fingers are crossed that the Smart Parts bankruptcy/buyout enables AGD (and other manufacturers who were driven out / stepped out of the electro market) to get back into the E-Mag and X-Mag...maybe a next gen ULE EP-Mag?

I was wondering if AKA would come back into play. Didn't they stop making markers cause of the letters that were sent my the SP lawyers???

[Maghog]

Funny, no one even mentions Autocockers anymore. It used to be the biggest rivalry, then it was deemed that the cocker won the battle...but who won the war?
Dan@Triggernomics

[tribalman]

Originally Posted by factoid
There's still a cult following though.
[QUOTE=maniacmechanic]fixed

there's kool-ade somewhere?


Funny, no one even mentions Autocockers anymore. It used to be the biggest rivalry, then it was deemed that the cocker won the battle...but who won the war?
Dan@Triggernomics

yeah, it's sad not seeing/hearing cockers on the field too much anymore. last few times i've gone it's only been myself with my pump cocker and a friend with his mech cockers.

[Frizzle Fry]

twist-lock barrels are super convenient for servicing. I like them a lot for that...but they were bad for a number of reasons.

For efficiency: You can't directly match the bolt to the breech so you lose transfer efficiency with every shot. It's not a massive loss, but it's there, especially with large bore barrels.

For manufacturing: It's more expensive and more complicated to manufacture

for accuracy: the twist-lock barrel has quite a bit of "wobble" in it. It may not be all that significant except at very long distances (probably longer than most paintballs travel) but it's there.


Twist locks tend to be a larger bore because they were made 10 years ago. Almost every barrel made between 1990 and 1999 was a large bore due to paint size. At that time, there weren't many stock barrels with control bores, either. That said, many after market automag barrels have a stepped control bore... I'm no physicist, but wouldn't having a stepped control bore in a one piece barrel/breech assembly significantly reduce energy loss over that of a large bore or a two piece stepped bore with a seam? Either way, between my Autospirit and Freak twistlocks, I didn't have a problem.

Manufacturing? That's not a valid excuse... Most manufacturers are set up to make threaded barrels, but once your shop is producing both, the difference in time and cost is negligible. If you're dealing with brass, that's a different story, but with aluminum or SS it's not a problem. Initial tooling costs are one thing, but the barrel companies who were around then and still make twistlock now don't have a problem delivering twistlocks at the same profit margin, or I should say, wouldn't if the demand were greater. I have a feeling the cost rumor started up a few years ago when PPS decided to throw their hat in the twistlock ring, being a small shop that works mostly in brass.

As for accuracy, I don't know what's wrong with your classic mags, but with good O-rings and a properly adjusted twistlock assembly, you shouldn't be encountering any wobble. Perhaps not owning a twistlock mag that you purchased directly from AGD, you might have a barrel who's O-rings were replaced with smaller/thinner ones? It happens. Even if a wobbly barrel was a regular issue, I have to ask, would it really matter? Paintballs are notoriously inaccurate at long distances, and in paintball, 80 feet is "long distance".


Lastly, why are we even talking about SS bodied mags? Granted they made for cheaper rentals, and were the original rental, but the ULE body was around before AGD really fell from the forefront of the paintball scene, and twistlock barrels were retired... Why not use unmilled slug bodies with RENTAL stamped in the side? Cocker threading is popular, CF frames are indestructible, and classic valves are pretty hard to destroy.

[factoid]

Autocockers supposedly went to crap around 2004-2006 when they switched their manufacturing over to China. Quality went through the floor and it never really came back.

It's really sad that a few weeks ago some dude showed up with an ICE Epic and swore up and down that it was a "walmart autococker" made after they switched to chinese manufacturing.

He didn't believe me when I told him that those were once very expensive markers and not related to cockers in any way.

The fact that it's basically a bolt-less blowgun didn't deter him. Part of me wanted to give him a lowball offer like $100 bucks to see if he'd part with it. That's how misunderstood these markers are today.

[Frizzle Fry]

Autocockers supposedly went to crap around 2004-2006 when they switched their manufacturing over to China. Quality went through the floor and it never really came back.

It's really sad that a few weeks ago some dude showed up with an ICE Epic and swore up and down that it was a "walmart autococker" made after they switched to chinese manufacturing.

He didn't believe me when I told him that those were once very expensive markers and not related to cockers in any way.

The fact that it's basically a bolt-less blowgun didn't deter him. Part of me wanted to give him a lowball offer like $100 bucks to see if he'd part with it. That's how misunderstood these markers are today.

ICE markers are still worth a bit. Was it a DV8 or a classic?

Either way, cockers went to crap when WGP sold. Except the Jeff Orr signatures. Trilogies aren't bad starter guns, god knows the quality control was better than most of the crappy DYE clones that were floating around, but it shipped with a large bore barrel and most didn't have clamping feednecks, and they wondered why it couldn't keep up with spyders and tippmanns.

[tribalman]

Trilogies aren't bad starter guns, god knows the quality control was better than most of the crappy DYE clones that were floating around, but it shipped with a large bore barrel and most didn't have clamping feednecks, and they wondered why it couldn't keep up with spyders and tippmanns.


with my ricochet AK and freak set it's good to go. although i've since switched it over to pump and a 100 round hopper... :rofl:

[Frizzle Fry]

with my ricochet AK and freak set it's good to go. although i've since switched it over to pump and a 100 round hopper... :rofl:

I keep a MASSIVELY modified one as a loaner. She's known as "The Fugly Duckling" due to the strange dust gray/silver/purple anodizing. It wears a 12v Revvy or Apache (the only ones that fit it OK) and will soon get an iFit so I don't need to keep dripping nail polish in the barrel to prevent rollouts... Kinda wish there were more feedneck options though. It's not a terrible marker; just not as easy to learn on as a Tippmann or Spyder I'd say.

Now that I think about it, I bet they shipped those things with a .691 and .695 barrel in hopes that people would buy the rest of their kit.

[factoid]

ICE markers are still worth a bit. Was it a DV8 or a classic?

Either way, cockers went to crap when WGP sold. Except the Jeff Orr signatures. Trilogies aren't bad starter guns, god knows the quality control was better than most of the crappy DYE clones that were floating around, but it shipped with a large bore barrel and most didn't have clamping feednecks, and they wondered why it couldn't keep up with spyders and tippmanns.


I've never actually owned an Epic, so I'm not sure if it was the DV8 or the classic. It looks like it was either fairly new or an old one in excellent condition. The guy had only played with it like two or three times at that point.

I'm only familiar with them personally because I traded markers for a game once. He'd never shot a Mag and I'd never shot an Epic, so we swapped. It was a bizarre feeling to shoot that thing. Sounds funny and no vibration from the bolt cycling, because obviously there isn't one.

oh and I lol'ed when I read your comment about the "nail polish trick". I haven't seen that done in YEARS.

[Frizzle Fry]

I've never actually owned an Epic, so I'm not sure if it was the DV8 or the classic. It looks like it was either fairly new or an old one in excellent condition. The guy had only played with it like two or three times at that point.

I'm only familiar with them personally because I traded markers for a game once. He'd never shot a Mag and I'd never shot an Epic, so we swapped. It was a bizarre feeling to shoot that thing. Sounds funny and no vibration from the bolt cycling, because obviously there isn't one.

oh and I lol'ed when I read your comment about the "nail polish trick". I haven't seen that done in YEARS.

Centerfeed = DV8

Right/Leftfeed = Classic

I've got a DV8 myself... ICE is still going strong-ish and I just rebuilt the whole sucker for the first time (not that it needed it). Honestly, shooting one is like shooting an Angel LED after 6 years of 'cockers, spyders and mags. It's like... air. Nothing more. I hope you enjoyed it; you rarely see those suckers on the field.

As for the nailpolish trick... well... it beats the ducttape trick :p

[cockerpunk]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.

[factoid]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.


To be fair, you can buy them pre-tuned and they rarely drop out unless you're like us on the forums and tinker endlessly with your markers. Keep oil in it and you're good to go.

They are definitely less efficient and heavier than similarly priced guns on the market today, but then again most spool valve guns are a bit on the heavy side.

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway?

[brycelarson]

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway?

yes, in Rt mode they're crazy fast - however, that's uncontrolled uncapped. electronic controls are more precise and can be controlled - ie fire modes.

the emag is a great contender - but is significantly heavier than equivalent modern guns.

[cockerpunk]

To be fair, you can buy them pre-tuned and they rarely drop out unless you're like us on the forums and tinker endlessly with your markers. Keep oil in it and you're good to go.

They are definitely less efficient and heavier than similarly priced guns on the market today, but then again most spool valve guns are a bit on the heavy side.

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway?

the speed is much more useable. a mciroswitch or optoswitch electro can be walked at 10+ bps with only a half an hours worth of practice, meanwhile, shooting a mech RT gun fast is a dicy propsition in game at best. maybe a pnu-mag, but certainly not a legal RT.

mags are great, cockers are awesome, epics are epic ... but funtionally they simply don't compete with modern guns. its a no brainer for someone who doesn't love the old school guns to get something more modern. these guns are like the "bullet" mustang ... indefiniably cool, but sorry, modern cars are better performing.

[factoid]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.


To be fair, you can buy them pre-tuned and they rarely drop out unless you're like us on the forums and tinker endlessly with your markers. Keep oil in it and you're good to go.

Mags are definitely less efficient and heavier than similarly priced guns on the market today, but then again most spool valve guns are a bit on the heavy side. I have no idea how a ULE mag compares weight wise to something like an Ego, but I'm sure it's a boat anchor by comparison. My classic mag is basically a huge hunk of stainless steel... I figure it weighs at least 4 pounds without a tank or loader.

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway? Maybe they really are a lot faster, but if you're limited to 13bps or less (or shooting mechanical) it's nothing to really be concerned about.

Efficiency and weight are the two things I'd love to see AGD address with a new design.

[brycelarson]

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway? Maybe they really are a lot faster, but if you're limited to 13bps or less (or shooting mechanical) it's nothing to really be concerned about.

usefully fast the electros are a better option. yes, RT mags will cycle faster than most modern high end guns - however, since it's mechanical capping them to keep them legal is a problem. On an electro you simply set the ROF cap and hammer as fast as you want. if a field limit is 12 or 13 you can't legally RT on a mag since you'll likely be blowing past that limit.

[leloup]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.

My mag is as light as the pm6 I just sold, and I have found that every marker requires tuning of one sort or another, be it messing with board settings, or using shims. As for price, I paid about $250 for a ULE mag with ULT'd X-valve. How is that more expensive than the new stuff today (Savvy shopper :D)? My brother played with it last time we were out; we talked later, and he said that the only problem he has with it, is that it uses batteries...surprised him when I said it was a mech.

[cockerpunk]

My mag is as light as the pm6 I just sold, and I have found that every marker requires tuning of one sort or another, be it messing with board settings, or using shims. As for price, I paid about $250 for a ULE mag with ULT'd X-valve. How is that more expensive than the new stuff today (Savvy shopper :D)? My brother played with it last time we were out; we talked later, and he said that the only problem he has with it, is that it uses batteries...surprised him when I said it was a mech.

how did you get a ULE Xvalve with lvl ten for 250? thats rediculous. seeing as how that gun with a intelli retails for about 475 bucks ... and compared to the electro competition is outdone in just about every catagory ... you can see my point. and in the used market, even at 250 there a plethora of guns that outdo a ULE Xvalved mag.

i don't understand why you guys want to over sell automags. are they amazing - yes. i own several and love shooting them. are they as good as there modern equalents - heck no. sorry. those are the facts of the case.

there is no need to be an apologetic for automags, cockers, pumps or anything. different strokes for different folks, we are the classic car guys, and that is perfectly fine with me. i know that when i walk out onto a feild with an automag, cocker, or pump, i am outgunned. so what is all i have to say about that.

[BigEvil]

i know that when i walk out onto a feild with an automag, cocker, or pump, i am outgunned. so what is all i have to say about that.


I really dont know how that is the case. You are doing something wrong. :rolleyes:

[Loguzzzzzz]

I really dont know how that is the case. You are doing something wrong. :rolleyes:
QFT

All I know is that the only time I will grab my Cyborg over one of my mags is in a long scenario game where the air is very far away and I don't want to make the long walk.

Other that that there is no other reason I chose anything over my mag.

[BigEvil]

Guess he should have been at TB4. I wonder if anyone who was there thought the same way :shooting:

[punkncat]

Being "outgunned" is a state of mind. The only time it truly applies is in a tourney setting where you simply cannot lay down a lane the same way. I play scrimmages with my mag, and several guys come out and play pump with everyone else shooting 13.3 in a highly competitive setting...moreso than rec ball.

If you honestly feel like you have to have a marker that can feather up high ROF instantly and blow money downfield, you might consider improving your snapshot.

[tribalman]

usefully fast the electros are a better option. yes, RT mags will cycle faster than most modern high end guns - however, since it's mechanical capping them to keep them legal is a problem. On an electro you simply set the ROF cap and hammer as fast as you want. if a field limit is 12 or 13 you can't legally RT on a mag since you'll likely be blowing past that limit.

there is a field local to me that has an electro only ROF cap. there was a mag on the field that was going RT. i heard it and even asked the ref why he wasn't pulling the guy for shooting too fast. he said, it's mech so if he can pull that fast it's ok. :wow:


Being "outgunned" is a state of mind. The only time it truly applies is in a tourney setting where you simply cannot lay down a lane the same way. I play scrimmages with my mag, and several guys come out and play pump with everyone else shooting 13.3 in a highly competitive setting...moreso than rec ball.

If you honestly feel like you have to have a marker that can feather up high ROF instantly and blow money downfield, you might consider improving your snapshot.

haha. last weekend when i went my ion was really crapping out on me. couldn't shoot more than 5bps or the thing would lock up. i still played with it, got people out, even had one of the people i got out say that was the most fun he's had snap shooting against someone in a long time. :rofl: oh yeah..... i should go see what's up with that thing.

[Frizzle Fry]

Guess he should have been at TB4. I wonder if anyone who was there thought the same way :shooting:

He can't shoot a lane with his Emag because his level 10 is improperly tuned, so he muffs ever 7th shot. So he's "outgunned".

[cockerpunk]

what are you guys talking about? really?

all im saying is something that you already agreed with. a mag is simply not as high performance a gun as even mid level markers these days, ergo, when talking a mag onto a feild of mid and high end guns, you are outgunned. simple as that. they have as good or better technology in there hands then you do ... you are outgunned.

why are you guys apologetics for your equipment? the simple fact is your mag isn't the best, and has not been for closer to 10 years then 5 years.

so what? why is that fact hard to wrap your head around? thats the reason i love to shoot mags, because they are worse guns. thats the fun of owning and shooting old school guns, they arn't as plug and play as modern stuff. i don't want to shoot a bland and boring gun, i want a gun with personality and poise. THAT is why i shoot mags, cockers, pumps, and the like. take pride in that, don't rationalize it. "oh but on a scuba tank, its faster then an ego!" who the hell cares? cool from a technology standpoint, but totally useless.

apologetics ... i dislike them in all aspects of life. stop being an apologetic for your equipment. take pride in the fact that you enjoy and are effective with less technology.

[Frizzle Fry]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So a high pressure ninja tank tank is a "scuba tank"? I was under the impression that Ninja tank regs were setting the industry standard, and their bottles are... just like any other bottle?

How are you "outgunned"? You've got a competitive rate of fire, simple maintenance (oil, velocity adjustment... and?), solid construction and literally ALL of the "upgrades" available to modern markers as far as detents, feednecks, and ASAs go. Field stripping is simple, parts are cheap and you can get a tournament season and then some out of a parts kit... What does "outgunned" mean? Lighter weight? Better air efficiency? C'mon.

[factoid]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So a high pressure ninja tank tank is a "scuba tank"? I was under the impression that Ninja tank regs were setting the industry standard, and their bottles are... just like any other bottle?

How are you "outgunned"? You've got a competitive rate of fire, simple maintenance (oil, velocity adjustment... and?), solid construction and literally ALL of the "upgrades" available to modern markers as far as detents, feednecks, and ASAs go. Field stripping is simple, parts are cheap and you can get a tournament season and then some out of a parts kit... What does "outgunned" mean? Lighter weight? Better air efficiency? C'mon.

He's referring to a video on youtube where Zak Vetter hooks his RT mag up to a direct input 3000PSI scuba tank with no reg and gets to to RT at something like 34BPS.


I'm not an apologist for my equipment, but I really dont' see how I'm outgunned when I go on the field, but I play woodsball so being able to throw down a lane is not important and my field has a 12bps cap and free air. The only advantage someone with an ego has over me in the woods is that their gun is lighter than mine, so they'll get less tired carrying it around.

The speedball field is a different story, but for me it doesn't matter...I hate playing speed ball. I'm a woods guy through and through.

Sure we're the classic car guys...but when you're on a road with a speed limit does a Ferrari really outpace a Mustang?

[cockerpunk]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So a high pressure ninja tank tank is a "scuba tank"? I was under the impression that Ninja tank regs were setting the industry standard, and their bottles are... just like any other bottle?

How are you "outgunned"? You've got a competitive rate of fire, simple maintenance (oil, velocity adjustment... and?), solid construction and literally ALL of the "upgrades" available to modern markers as far as detents, feednecks, and ASAs go. Field stripping is simple, parts are cheap and you can get a tournament season and then some out of a parts kit... What does "outgunned" mean? Lighter weight? Better air efficiency? C'mon.

we already talked about how a 400 dollar mid level electro is smaller, lighter, faster, easier to control, easier to tune, much more efficent. we already talked about sweetspotting RTs is far more trouble then spending 15 mintues to practice walking the trigger of even a 250 dollar electro (not even gonna mention ramping), we talked about multi-mode and capped systems being easier to work with on electros ...

sorry guys, gun technology has improved in the last 10 years. it just has. at this point in paintball you can have a BETTER then pro level gun from 2003 for less then 500 bucks. you can, i mean that is the cold and simple truth.

i don't get it. thats the title of the thread, i don't get why you need to make excuses to justify your choice of equipment.

so what if its not the best? why is that a bad thing?

it isn't. thats the great thing about these guns, they are more fun becuase they arn't the best. do you see GT340 mustangs trying to road race EvoXs? do you care that the veyron is faster then a 1967 DB3? is a 1923 supercharged bently cooler then then new bently GT?

[cockerpunk]

He's referring to a video on youtube where Zak Vetter hooks his RT mag up to a direct input 3000PSI scuba tank with no reg and gets to to RT at something like 34BPS.


I'm not an apologist for my equipment, but I really dont' see how I'm outgunned when I go on the field, but I play woodsball so being able to throw down a lane is not important and my field has a 12bps cap and free air. The only advantage someone with an ego has over me in the woods is that their gun is lighter than mine, so they'll get less tired carrying it around.

The speedball field is a different story, but for me it doesn't matter...I hate playing speed ball. I'm a woods guy through and through.

Sure we're the classic car guys...but when you're on a road with a speed limit does a Ferrari really outpace a Mustang?

im right with you on that one. im the first to say that you really don't need more then about 8 bps for much, even on a speedball feild.

but that doesn't mean more isn't better. or that factors besides speed arn't equally or more important.

put it this way. i would use the term "outguned" even if we were playing speedball and everyone was capped at 8 bps and i was playing with my emag, and someone else was playing with an ego10. he still has a better gun then me. maybe not faster, certainly not cooler, and probably not even as valuable ... but a better gun.

[Frizzle Fry]

we already talked about how a 400 dollar mid level electro is smaller, lighter, faster, easier to control, easier to tune, much more efficent. we already talked about sweetspotting RTs is far more trouble then spending 15 mintues to practice walking the trigger of even a 250 dollar electro (not even gonna mention ramping), we talked about multi-mode and capped systems being easier to work with on electros ...

Easier to tune? You can't tell me adjusting dwell and input pressure is easier than sliding a ring onto a stick and seeing if it fits (once) and adjusting velocity each day at the field (which you do anyway). Easier to "control"? Not sure I follow you there. Sweetspotting an R/T.. Hardly relevant, as you can't R/T at most fields and events. As for multiple modes, that's irrelevant in almost all recreational situations and most competitive ones... Regardless, electronic automags have multiple modes.

Congrats; you discovered that you can't cap the BPS of a mech marker, unless you cap the loader (UWL, anyone?). Big deal... With an Xmod'ed Emag you can compete in any tournament you want. Hell, at many you'll be fine with stock AGD software.

So far all you've told me is that newer markers (of which I own plenty) are smaller (ish), lighter (ish), and more air efficient... If I can shoot a 4+3 and hopperful on a 68/45 with air to spare, and don't have the forearms of a little girl that'll snap if my marker weighs 3-4oz more than a Geo2, why does it matter? How does that constitute being "outgunned"?



put it this way. i would use the term "outguned" even if we were playing speedball and everyone was capped at 8 bps and i was playing with my emag, and someone else was playing with an ego10. he still has a better gun then me. maybe not faster, certainly not cooler, and probably not even as valuable ... but a better gun.

...how so? Why? How? Based on WHAT?

[cockerpunk]

...how so? Why? How? Based on WHAT?

becuase his gun is lighter, much smaller, more ergonomic, easier to shoot fast, easier on paint (i know you will argue this point, but it is true), easier to setup and tune, better trigger and board ... the list goes on and on and on.

its a better performing paintball gun.

i don't understand how your not grasping this simple concept. the mid to high level guns of today are FAR supirior in every way compared to even the best guns of early 2000s, including the E/X mag.

[going_home]

Be honest. Do you really think you will win this argument in here ? You may as well agree to disagree because its not going to happen. :D

[teufelhunden]

...how so? Why? How? Based on WHAT?

More accurate, shoots farther, low pressure, eyes, less bounces



:cool:

[leloup]

Car analogies don't work for paintball. Racing is about who is fastest, and paintball is not speed of shooting (as we see by all the field limits).

No, mags are not "old technology," neither are they "out gunned." Again, my mag is as light (or very close) to modern high ends. As for speed, when tourney fields are capping at 15 or 13, an ULT mag can shoot almost as fast. When I played tourneys, I didn't ramp, and shot as fast as I do with my mag. In addition, during the tourney (we placed first), I switched to my phantom and got the most eliminations from my team. Out gunned is a state of mind, and as far as all the posts I have read, no one but you is apologetic about their mags. We know that they are still relevant, still awesome shooters. Could they use a little more air efficiency, sure, but all fields that I have been to are unlimited air, so it doesn't matter. An ego10 is not a better gun (that is a subjective post, totally biased, as are all our feelings about mags being awesome).

As for only paying $250 for my mag, I am a business man, born and bread (and a degree in it). I only shop deals, and trade when I know I can turn a profit.

[cockerpunk]

Be honest. Do you really think you will win this argument in here ? You may as well agree to disagree because its not going to happen. :D

tiz true. the AGD religion is strong here. almost as bad as the AKA religion on MCB ...

its just silly to me. mags, cockers, love them. but i don't love them becuase they are any better then any other gun, i love them because they are worse then every other gun. its there imperfections that makes me love them. the near perfection of modern guns is boring. i want something with a little character, a little penache, some zest or spice to it. thats why i do youtube shows on osolating barrel guns, and guns that have 45 millisecond dwells ... thats why i like these guns. thats why i enjoy playing with these guns too. nothing more fun then blasting away with a rainmaker, so loud that no one within 15 feet can hear anything ... thats fun!

[Frizzle Fry]

More accurate, shoots farther, low pressure, eyes, less bounces



:cool:

Hey hey hey hey, they are actually operating at a lower pressure :rolleyes:

Well. Input pressure.

[Frizzle Fry]

thats why i do youtube shows

...they're "shows" now? :tard:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Spider-TW]

what are you guys talking about? really?

all im saying is something that you already agreed with. a mag is simply not as high performance a gun as even mid level markers these days, ergo, when talking a mag onto a feild of mid and high end guns, you are outgunned. simple as that. they have as good or better technology in there hands then you do ... you are outgunned.

why are you guys apologetics for your equipment? the simple fact is your mag isn't the best, and has not been for closer to 10 years then 5 years.

so what? why is that fact hard to wrap your head around? thats the reason i love to shoot mags, because they are worse guns. thats the fun of owning and shooting old school guns, they arn't as plug and play as modern stuff. i don't want to shoot a bland and boring gun, i want a gun with personality and poise. THAT is why i shoot mags, cockers, pumps, and the like. take pride in that, don't rationalize it. "oh but on a scuba tank, its faster then an ego!" who the hell cares? cool from a technology standpoint, but totally useless.

apologetics ... i dislike them in all aspects of life. stop being an apologetic for your equipment. take pride in the fact that you enjoy and are effective with less technology.
Ok, NOW you sound like an engineer. :p

I think I know what you're saying, but it doesn't read that way. I think the definitions of levels of performance and better/worse got scrambled up in the conversation long ago.

One thing I still give my mags over my three ~2k5 vintage electros is that I can rely on them more day-to-day, and the RT rig will put out an unsociable amount of paint every time. I may be able to pick up a new lighter electro to do the same thing this year, but I expect more trouble out of it over the next few years. Regulators and seals are keystones of paintball markers, and mags have a damn fine grip on that.

With the market today, manufacturers don't really care if I can rebuild their marker in one or two years, they just need to sell me a new one. However, if that is the lifetime of their product, I won't have the product loyalty you see here, and I would just move on to the booth with the better looking babes.

[cockerpunk]

Car analogies don't work for paintball. Racing is about who is fastest, and paintball is not speed of shooting (as we see by all the field limits).

No, mags are not "old technology," neither are they "out gunned." Again, my mag is as light (or very close) to modern high ends. As for speed, when tourney fields are capping at 15 or 13, an ULT mag can shoot almost as fast. When I played tourneys, I didn't ramp, and shot as fast as I do with my mag. In addition, during the tourney (we placed first), I switched to my phantom and got the most eliminations from my team. Out gunned is a state of mind, and as far as all the posts I have read, no one but you is apologetic about their mags. We know that they are still relevant, still awesome shooters. Could they use a little more air efficiency, sure, but all fields that I have been to are unlimited air, so it doesn't matter. An ego10 is not a better gun (that is a subjective post, totally biased, as are all our feelings about mags being awesome).

As for only paying $250 for my mag, I am a business man, born and bread (and a degree in it). I only shop deals, and trade when I know I can turn a profit.

i never said they were old technology. don't misquote me.

i'd like to see you sustain 15 bps on a ULT mag. in fact, we have a competition on techpb right now about that, i'd love for you to check it out. most electro players can sustain 13+ bps for 10 or more seconds. lets see that ease of shooting fast with an ULTed mag. maybe a pnuemag, but certainly not a ULTed mag.

as for switching to your phantom, congrats. litterally my favorite gun in the world is the phantom. i play with them all the time, on every feild imaginable. they are just great guns. i've played D2 players and teams with one, i've played with only a micro phantom in big games ... they are very fun guns!

i never said mags were not relevent. and i didn't say they weren't awesome shooters. again misquoting me.

the ego10 is a better gun. it might not be your preference for a gun, but in terms of paintball gun performance it is a FAR better gun. the only real subjective nature in that is "cool factor" and we all know that egos are simply not that cool. mags are way cooler then egos, that doesn't mean that egos arn't better guns though.

[cockerpunk]

Ok, NOW you sound like an engineer. :p

I think I know what you're saying, but it doesn't read that way. I think the definitions of levels of performance and better/worse got scrambled up in the conversation long ago.

One thing I still give my mags over my three ~2k5 vintage electros is that I can rely on them more day-to-day, and the RT rig will put out an unsociable amount of paint every time. I may be able to pick up a new lighter electro to do the same thing this year, but I expect more trouble out of it over the next few years. Regulators and seals are keystones of paintball markers, and mags have a damn fine grip on that.

With the market today, manufacturers don't really care if I can rebuild their marker in one or two years, they just need to sell me a new one. However, if that is the lifetime of their product, I won't have the product loyalty you see here, and I would just move on to the booth with the better looking babes.

bingo ... someone gets it.

your defintaly right on the last paragraph. something like a G3 won't age like a classic mag, not by a long shot!

[leloup]

they are worse then every other gun.

They are different, not worse. I am sure others will agree that mags are tanks. They are more reliable than any "superior" marker out these days. My x-valves never have failed me in a game, while my high end did (which is why I switched to my phantom). Mags are not fragile. I have replaced eyes on two high ends before, purchased new noids, had regs go down and had to order new internals. My mags....a drop of oil and no worries. I think you are buying into the hype of the latest and greatest. They have good marketing, one thing that is definitely superior to mags.

[Frizzle Fry]

the ego10 is a better gun. it might not be your preference for a gun, but in terms of paintball gun performance it is a FAR better gun. the only real subjective nature in that is "cool factor" and we all know that egos are simply not that cool. mags are way cooler then egos, that doesn't mean that egos arn't better guns though.

...Egos aren't cool? I'm sorry, with the ability to drop next years upgrades into last year's model (or into an Etek) and make it perform with the exact same efficiency, kick reduction, etc. why would people sell their Ego9 and buy an Ego10? Why would anyone buy an SL, private label, or custom ano marker? It's ALL about cool factor, with a nearly negligible change in performance (unless weight constitutes performance).

No matter how light your marker gets, you're still going to have a tank on the back and a hopper full of paint on the top (or side, or bottom).

[cockerpunk]

They are different, not worse. I am sure others will agree that mags are tanks. They are more reliable than any "superior" marker out these days. My x-valves never have failed me in a game, while my high end did (which is why I switched to my phantom). Mags are not fragile. I have replaced eyes on two high ends before, purchased new noids, had regs go down and had to order new internals. My mags....a drop of oil and no worries. I think you are buying into the hype of the latest and greatest. They have good marketing, one thing that is definitely superior to mags.

no, im certainly not buying into any hype. i simply can see the paintball world without a dogma clouding my vision.

i never said mags were fragile or unreliable. i would debate with you that modern guns are less reliable though (some certainly are, others arn't), i've seen guns that don't get cleaned for months on end spitting case after case of paint, not breaking a ball the whole time. this is one reason why i dislike modern spool valves, becuase they are pretty unrelaiable compared to mags (why my gearbag is full of mags and not modern spools ;)). that being said, i have had to order new internals for mags before too. no gun is truly perfect after all.

[cockerpunk]

...Egos aren't cool? I'm sorry, with the ability to drop next years upgrades into last year's model (or into an Etek) and make it perform with the exact same efficiency, kick reduction, etc. why would people sell their Ego9 and buy an Ego10? Why would anyone buy an SL, private label, or custom ano marker? It's ALL about cool factor, with a nearly negligible change in performance (unless weight constitutes performance).

No matter how light your marker gets, you're still going to have a tank on the back and a hopper full of paint on the top (or side, or bottom).

now your just trolling for a fight. cool is a subjective term, that was the ENTIRE point of that sentence. you find different things cooler then i do, and we probably don't agree with the mass market in paintball's defitnion of cool. again ... so what?

i personally don't think egos are very cool. they are amazing guns, but they arn't cool to me. i certainly find a lvl 5 mag much cooler, even a old school high rise feed classic RT is much cooler then an ego. i thought being a AGD religious man you would agree, but i guess you would rather fight about stupid **** then have a real conversation.

reported, and i think im done responding to your stupidity.

[Spider-TW]

I'll take the race analogy as well.

Purpose built.

What do I get with my extra modes? The most I get personally is limited to 12 or 13 bps.

What do I get with less weight? I might switch hands faster, but I lean with my body and sometimes I like some marker weight in the back of the field.

What do I get with efficiency? A third of a tank of air that I still need to put air into. And how much faster can you move with your light marker when you add the extra paint to your body?

If you gave me a Ferrari, I would be handicapped in my daily driving. My local streets are full of bumps, holes and manway covers. I would either putt along or tear it up. The Ferrari can't even go some of the places I take my ancient pickup. Even a cheap low end sports car couldn't make it.

Is "better"? Sure. Can I use it? Not really (someone can).

The design criteria for mags was different from new markers, and to me that is what gives them their uniqueness.

I thought the Ion could have been a classic electro design if SP had played it out in a manner similar to the mag and the autococker, but that wasn't their nature. With a little more modularity and reliability, it could have been bigger (but maybe not as cheap).

[Frizzle Fry]

reported, and i think im done responding to your stupidity.

Reported for what?

Call it stupidity if you like, but if you think the merit of a marker is found solely in its weight and efficiency, then you have very little understanding of what is important in a paintball gun. You can tout the alleged "user friendliness" (I'm guessing thats what you mean when you say "plug and play" and refer to "control") but when you compare the process of tuning, say, an Etek and tuning a Level10 ULE, you'll see that the methods are completely different but they take about the same amount of time. Durability and extremely low maintenance are the reason that relic Tippmanns and Classic mags are on the field while 4+ year old midrange electros lay forgotten in closets. It's the same reason you'll see DM4s and 5PEED Angels, for that matter.

I'm not saying that Automags are the best marker made, or that they're necessarily superior to newer markers, but merely that you're not at ANY sort of disadvantage playing with an Xmag versus an Ego10 unless you plan to shoot 8+ pods in one game or don't have the stamina to carry something that weighs mere ounces more. Were not all rabid fanboys here, certainly not what you've made us out to be... We all own other markers and shoot them regularly. I've got plenty of markers that I prefer to my mags.

Different markers have different merits. You can talk about one being more ergonomic than another, but that's completely in the eye of the beholder... Some people like heavier, some lighter. Some like a 90* frame, others a 45. Plenty of guys hate Minis for have a cramped foregrip... Does that make it a better or worse marker? Does it really matter?

I'll meet you half way and say that, yes, a classic mag is less likely to keep up with a modern midrange electro in a competitive situation, but that's as far as I'll go. I just can't understand why you can't point to anything other than weight and air efficiency with your superiority argument. The tuning, ease on paint, and "plug 'n play" arguments are bunk when you compare an Ego and a similarly outfitted R/T ULE.

[punkncat]

The only "issue" I have with a mag at all is their inefficency. Aside from that, they are better quality build than anything on the market, and are more consistant that most.

The whole thing is, that what marker is the best, or better, is open to opinionated interpretation.

[going_home]

This thread has swerved off the road, into the ditch, thru the field, thru the barn, and off the cliff. :tard:

[cockerpunk]

Reported for what?

Call it stupidity if you like, but if you think the merit of a marker is found solely in its weight and efficiency, then you have very little understanding of what is important in a paintball gun. I acutally have been saying the EXACT opposite. that the merit of a marker is NOT in its weight and effienecy. You can tout the alleged "user friendliness" (I'm guessing thats what you mean when you say "plug and play" and refer to "control") but when you compare the process of tuning, say, an Etek and tuning a Level10 ULE, you'll see that the methods are completely different but they take about the same amount of time. not even close to true. tunin a level 10 and ULT can be a long process if you want to dial it in right. both of those things (anti-chop and trigger feel) are pretty much already taken care of in a modern gun and one merely needs to adjust velocoty with 1 screw (which one must do on a mg too) to get the gun working right. Durability and extremely low maintenance are the reason that relic Tippmanns and Classic mags are on the field while 4+ year old midrange electros lay forgotten in closets. yup, so what? It's the same reason you'll see DM4s and 5PEED Angels, for that matter.yup

I'm not saying that Automags are the best marker made, or that they're necessarily superior to newer markers, but merely that you're not at ANY sort of disadvantage playing with an Xmag versus an Ego10 unless you plan to shoot 8+ pods in one game or don't have the stamina to carry something that weighs mere ounces more. sure you are. heavier gun, bigger gun, bigger tank, worse grips, worse triggers, higher feedneck ... im not saying these things are game breakers, but to ignore them is ignorant. Were not all rabid fanboys here, certainly not what you've made us out to be... We all own other markers and shoot them regularly. I've got plenty of markers that I prefer to my mags.

Different markers have different merits. You can talk about one being more ergonomic than another, but that's completely in the eye of the beholder... Some people like heavier, some lighter. Some like a 90* frame, others a 45. Plenty of guys hate Minis for have a cramped foregrip... Does that make it a better or worse marker? Does it really matter?yeah, those are all subjective traites, unlike lighter, faster, more efficient easier to shoot fast, easier to setup ... all are objective or very close to objective.

I'll meet you half way and say that, yes, a classic mag is less likely to keep up with a modern midrange electro in a competitive situation, but that's as far as I'll go. I just can't understand why you can't point to anything other than weight and air efficiency with your superiority argument. you mean besides the easily half a dozen things i have listed? The tuning, ease on paint, and "plug 'n play" arguments are bunk when you compare an Ego and a similarly outfitted R/T ULE.read the above post

i think you guys are lacking a knowledge in objective vs subjective aspects.

objectivly we can compare kick, consistency, efficiency, sound, pull length and weight, fedneck hieght, weight, size, theoretically we could do relaiably, but that invloves how a player interacts with the gun such as maintinace, cleaning, general treatment .... litterally dozens of factors in a gun. and in most the mag is either on par, or behind a modern gun. objectivly the gun is worse.

subjectivly, there are intagible factors. like "cool" and there is a subjective ranking of the objective things with statements like "well, i like loud guns" well, i love loud guns, and the price i pay for that is that i have a hard time picking off more then one guy in a sneaky peaky game of woodsball. another example, i don't really care that poopits kick more then spools, it doesn't make a difference to me. but that doesn't change the fact that smoother is better, and that spools are in general smoother.

but the objective assement remains true no matter how you want to think about it. mags are obectivly worse guns. i embrace that. you guys try to cover that up. be it with apologetic arguments or playing style or whatnot ... but that doesn't change the objective assement of the gun. pump guns are worse guns then semis. doesn't mean i am not effective with a pump gun, or that with playign well and gun fighting well i can't overcome that ... but its a worse gun for the purpose of shooting other guys out, all else being equal.

[Frizzle Fry]

Tuning a Level 10 is NOT a long process or a difficult one. It's also not something you need to do with any frequency, unless you're constantly changing bolts, tanks or bodies for some reason. The time level 10 tuning takes could be compared to the tuning of an LPR and adjustment of dwell in a modern electro, except it needs to be done very rarely by comparison. Again, not saying it's better, but it's not by any means worse. As for ULT and trigger rod tuning, the trigger rod is almost the same as adjusting the grub screws found on the triggers of most electros, and the ULT isn't necessary for speed and a snappy trigger.

What qualifies as "worse" grips and "worse" triggers? Is a 68/45 magically heavier because it's on an Xmag rather than an Ego? Why would an Xmag have a higher feedneck than an Ego? Mine certainly isn't; I'd say it's a few millimeters shorter than what came stock on my Ego. Yeah, it's heavier. So what? That doesn't make it "worse for shooting people out".

Also, we've been over this. Modern markers are NOT "faster" or "easier to shoot faster" so again you're left with your argument boiled down to weight and air efficiency, which are NEGLIGIBLE. Weight does not make or break a marker when it's a difference of a handful of ounces; if it was a difference of a few pounds (think PMI-3 versus Spyder Compact), you're right, it would be an issue, but unless you're a toddler a few ounces really don't matter.


We're not "covering anything up" and you're not being objective. You've got an opinion and that's fine, but you claim to be Mr. 100% Objective Science Guy rather than owning the fact that you're merely stating preferences. When asked for specifics you use words like "worse" or "better" or "easier" rather than concrete examples of what it is you're talking about. What is

[Spider-TW]

This thread has swerved off the road, into the ditch, thru the field, thru the barn, and off the cliff. :tard:
It's a good ride though. :)

[cockerpunk]

Tuning a Level 10 is NOT a long process or a difficult one. It's also not something you need to do with any frequency, unless you're constantly changing bolts, tanks or bodies for some reason. The time level 10 tuning takes could be compared to the tuning of an LPR and adjustment of dwell in a modern electro, except it needs to be done very rarely by comparison. Again, not saying it's better, but it's not by any means worse. As for ULT and trigger rod tuning, the trigger rod is almost the same as adjusting the grub screws found on the triggers of most electros, and the ULT isn't necessary for speed and a snappy trigger.

but you dont need to tune the dwell or LPR on modern electros. they are set from teh factory, and there is no reason to have to change them unless you feel like you can do better then a factory tech. a lvl 10 and ULT must be tuned on install and even then they wear out of tune (yes, i have worn out lvl 10 carrier o rings). the only thing you need to do to have a super nice trigger, anti-chop and a legal shootign gun with an electro is make sure its chronoed, which is the HPR. unlike an automag where you have to install and tune 2 parts (that arn't terribly simple), plus chrono.

What qualifies as "worse" grips and "worse" triggers? Is a 68/45 magically heavier because it's on an Xmag rather than an Ego? Why would an Xmag have a higher feedneck than an Ego? Mine certainly isn't; I'd say it's a few millimeters shorter than what came stock on my Ego. Yeah, it's heavier. So what? That doesn't make it "worse for shooting people out".

on an ego you can shoot a 45/45 and get the same shots as a 68/45 on a mag, so yeah, its a bigger and heavier tank. and yes, the feedneck is higher becuase the feedneck on many modern guns are lower, and machined into the body of the gun, making them even lower. plus an Xmag doesn't even come with a clamping feedneck to start with! of course heavier is worse for shooting poeple out. you tire faster, you can't snap shoot as fast, its bigger so you present a larger, harder (!!!) target to the opponent ...

Also, we've been over this. Modern markers are NOT "faster" or "easier to shoot faster" so again you're left with your argument boiled down to weight and air efficiency, which are NEGLIGIBLE. Weight does not make or break a marker when it's a difference of a handful of ounces; if it was a difference of a few pounds (think PMI-3 versus Spyder Compact), you're right, it would be an issue, but unless you're a toddler a few ounces really don't matter.

yeah they are. lets see someone sustain 13+ BPS for 5 seconds on a ULTed mag. with about 15-20 mintues of practice, a kid can do that on a sub 200 dollar electro, lets see the automag pros do the same. then i will grant you that shooting fast is just as easy on a mag as on an electro.

We're not "covering anything up" and you're not being objective. You've got an opinion and that's fine, but you claim to be Mr. 100% Objective Science Guy rather than owning the fact that you're merely stating preferences. When asked for specifics you use words like "worse" or "better" or "easier" rather than concrete examples of what it is you're talking about. What is
im not claiming to be 100% objective. again, the EXACT opposite. its becuase of my subjectivness that i love automags. you guys are attempting to present your subjective opinion of a performance aspect (like "heavy guns arn't worse") as objective. when really, heavier is worse. in your opinion heavier guns arn't worse, but in the ideal world, a gun that weighed nothing at all would be ideal. sure wouldn't be much fun, but that is subjective again!


^^^

[Spider-TW]

Tuning a Level 10 is NOT a long process or a difficult one.
The level 10 is a good example of something relatively worse or better.

Between a working level 10 and a working set of eyes, the eyes are better.

Between a non-functioning level 10 and a non-functioning set of eyes, I like the level 10 more than enough to make up the difference.

"All things being equal" is not a good criteria for apples and oranges, even if (or especially if) the apple is considerably older.

[OPBN]

i think you guys are lacking a knowledge in objective vs subjective aspects. .

Faster, lighter, smaller are objective as they are measurable.


objectivly the gun is worse

Better and worse are subjective as they are interpretations.

[cockerpunk]

Faster, lighter, smaller are objective as they are measurable.



Better and worse are subjective as they are interpretations.

better or worse is not subjective.

better or worse merely requires a criteria or metric to compare the numbers too. for example, a slower moving bolt is "better" for being gentle on paint. a short dwell time is "better" for being a fast gun. for the criteria for a tool to put paintball on the enemy, a gun that weighed nothing at all, took up no space, didn't kick, could shoot inifintly fast, on no air at all that is the "best" paintball gun. that objective gives a list of what is better. as an engineer designing a gun, that is is objective to achieve the best paintball gun for competetive play. this means that there is an objective better or worse, for any given metric. in this case i was using "tool for putting paintballs on the enemy faster" as my metric




however, what is "better" for you or i ... thats a whole different thing (and that is subjective). i like loud guns, don't mind carrying some weight, free all day air ... and whatnot. there is also the fun aspect. a gun like the one listed above would make playing paintball bascially no fun at all. my subjective assement of a gun is typically from the fun standpoint. loud is fun. clunky moving parts is fun. being different is fun.

[Ando]

Everyone answer me this or shut up...Who are you going to worry about more. The old man with the pump or the 14yr with the DM10?

You guys can boaster about new tech all you want.

I don't care about weight, I'm a man.

I don't care about fancy anno. It's going to get screwed up.

I don't care about air efficiency. I can walk the 100 yards to get all the free air I can handle.

I don't care about new technology, it's being made by the lowest bidder.

Who cares about ROF when your marker shoots "lazers" (as the kool kids say) and most mech markers can reach or surpass field caps....


@ Gordon

Shame on you :rolleyes: you know better then to coming on a specific board and call their markers inferior.

The playing field is even as fare as I'm concerned. It's the man that makes the marker great not the doohickeys and gizmo's in it...

...and if you want to get into doohickeys and gizmo's, I know for a fact cause of your statements that you've never shot a finely tuned pneumatic mag or one of the new E90 or V.E.R frames.

There is nothing that the new DM10,000 has over a AC, Mag or any other customizable marker out there. Every DM bla..bla..bla..is exactly the same as the next. Besides the weight, the newer markers have zip. All you need to do too "stay competitive" in your way of thinking is install a better firing mechanism (E-Grip for a cocker or E/EP/P-Grip for a mag).

I've had my E-Mag at stupid speeds at full auto, I had it set at 22bps but for some reason both mine and the field chrono was reading 26 so I don't know which one is right but anyways, I even tuned a ULT in it, took countless hours and about 8 tanks of air due to the tuning of the sear and plunger to the ULT but I'll put it up against any marker out there. I won't be behind it cause at my age, I'm mediocre at best as a speedballer now but it does everything I need it to. Shoot straight, reliable, never goes down, no worries about batteries if they die.

What more could you ask out of a marker...besides cook, pick up girls and clean itself :p

Lastly, I'd like to see where these Aggie markers today are going to be in 10 years.

Are they going to be on the field or is there going to be some other Aggie marker taking their place that have ABSOLUTELY ZERO INNOVATION OR UPGRADES in them besides they weigh .2 grams less with a +$500 price tag and a new S.O.S. feature that rains hell fire upon your opponent.

Damn I rambled ><

[cockerpunk]

Everyone answer me this or shut up...Who are you going to worry about more. The old man with the pump or the 14yr with the DM10?

You guys can boaster about new tech all you want.

I don't care about weight, I'm a man.

I don't care about fancy anno. It's going to get screwed up.

I don't care about air efficiency. I can walk the 100 yards to get all the free air I can handle.

I don't care about new technology, it's being made by the lowest bidder.

Who cares about ROF when your marker shoots "lazers" (as the kool kids say) and most mech markers can reach or surpass field caps....


@ Gordon

Shame on you :rolleyes: you know better then to coming on a specific board and call their markers inferior.

The playing field is even as fare as I'm concerned. It's the man that makes the marker great not the doohickeys and gizmo's in it...

...and if you want to get into doohickeys and gizmo's, I know for a fact cause of your statements that you've never shot a finely tuned pneumatic mag or one of the new E90 or V.E.R frames.

There is nothing that the new DM10,000 has over a AC, Mag or any other customizable marker out there. Every DM bla..bla..bla..is exactly the same as the next. Besides the weight, the newer markers have zip. All you need to do too "stay competitive" in your way of thinking is install a better firing mechanism (E-Grip for a cocker or E/EP/P-Grip for a mag).

I've had my E-Mag at stupid speeds at full auto, I had it set at 22bps but for some reason both my and the field chrono was reading 26 so I don't know which one is right. I even tuned a ULT in it, took countless hours and about 8 tanks of air due to the tuning of the sear and plunger to the ULT but I'll put it up against any marker out there. I won't be behind it cause at my age, I'm mediocre at best as a speedballer now but it does everything I need it to. Shoot straight, reliable, never goes down, no worries about batteries if they die.

What more could you ask out of a marker...besides cook, pick up girls and clean itself :p

Lastly, I'd like to see where these Aggie markers today are going to be in 10 years.

Are they going to be on the field or is there going to be some other Aggie marker taking their place that have ABSOLUTELY ZERO INNOVATION OR UPGRADES in them besides they weigh .2 grams less with a +$500 price tag and a new S.O.S. feature that rains hell fire upon your opponent.

Damn I rambled ><

did i ever say you couldn't be competetive with the latest and greatest with a mag?

nope.

next.

EDIT - is anyone even reading my posts? really guys, yous should all know by now that i am not an agglet, or think you need the best to compete ... or anything that has been brought up in the last half a dozen posts.

im not attacking the automag, i love them, i own many and i play with them regularly. i am only praising the automag for what it is - awesome! i am not however under the impression that they are the best even after nearly 10 yaers of other gun devolpments. it just isn't ... there isn't really any way around that fact guys. paintball has pass beyond mags like the automotive world has passed beyond carbs.

[OPBN]

better or worse is not subjective.

better or worse merely requires a criteria or metric to compare the numbers too. for example, a slower moving bolt is "better" for being gentle on paint. a short dwell time is "better" for being a fast gun. for the criteria for a tool to put paintball on the enemy, a gun that weighed nothing at all, took up no space, didn't kick, could shoot inifintly fast, on no air at all that is the "best" paintball gun. that objective gives a list of what is better. as an engineer designing a gun, that is is objective to achieve the best paintball gun for competetive play. this means that there is an objective better or worse, for any given metric. in this case i was using "tool for putting paintballs on the enemy faster" as my metric




however, what is "better" for you or i ... thats a whole different thing (and that is subjective). i like loud guns, don't mind carrying some weight, free all day air ... and whatnot. there is also the fun aspect. a gun like the one listed above would make playing paintball bascially no fun at all. my subjective assement of a gun is typically from the fun standpoint. loud is fun. clunky moving parts is fun. being different is fun.

Some of your examples are correct, some are not. You can say that a Mini is smaller and lighter. If these are criteria important to you, Than the marker can be better for you. That is subjective. To say that a lighter, faster marker is better for everyone is subjective. So stating your facts and interpreting them as a whole is subjective.

I have a friend that purchased a Mini. It was smaller and lighter than the previous marker that he owned. By your subjective opinion, this would make the Mini better. However, in his subjective opinion, it was worse. So who's subjective is objective? Neither.

[Frizzle Fry]

^^^

And Automags are tuned from the factory. ANY marker will go out of tune if given time and play... By the way "outdoing the techs" is not the only reason to adjust your LPR or dwell; new bolts, regulators, and entirely new boards (extremely common upgrades) are usually the motivation behind adjustments. In the same vein, a new body will require you to retune your mag. It's really not that different a story there.

And I've got to ask, how would a gun that weighed nothing be a good thing? I'm not saying that lighter is worse, I'm not saying that lighter is better, I'm just saying that the weight difference you're talking about is negligible. The difference of a pound or two is one thing, but a few ounces is nearly meaningless. Without hoppers or tanks, an Xmag weighs 2.61b and an Ego10 weighs 2.14lb. Do you REALLY believe your snap-shooting is significantly effected by +/-7.52oz? Is an extra 7.52oz that big a test of stamina?



The fact of the matter is that there is a minor weight difference and significant difference in air efficiency...

My question is this; if you get a team full of guys with Xmags and a team full of guys with Egos, is one at a disadvantage in an Xball game? The most common tank size is 68/45. The most common packs these days are 4+3, and both teams could empty them with a full tank. Both markers are capable of EASILY meeting and sustaining the max ROF, and have the necesary modes/settings. Would a 7.5oz weight difference, slightly larger marker size, and possible "feedneck height variation" give a significant advantage to one team or the other?





Some of your examples are correct, some are not. You can say that a Mini is smaller and lighter. If these are criteria important to you, Than the marker can be better for you. That is subjective. To say that a lighter, faster marker is better for everyone is subjective. So stating your facts and interpreting them as a whole is subjective.
My point exactly.

[cockerpunk]

Some of your examples are correct, some are not. You can say that a Mini is smaller and lighter. If these are criteria important to you, Than the marker can be better for you. That is subjective. To say that a lighter, faster marker is better for everyone is subjective. So stating your facts and interpreting them as a whole is subjective.

I have a friend that purchased a Mini. It was smaller and lighter than the previous marker that he owned. By your subjective opinion, this would make the Mini better. However, in his subjective opinion, it was worse. So who's subjective is objective? Neither.

no, that is a subjective issue. if you made the gun even smaller, iniftinly small, then there would be no issue. the issue of the mini's size is becuase of our form, our way of holding the gun, our way of controlling the gun ... change that, and you can have guns that are as small as you can be. it would be easy to invent a new form of a gun that only used one hand, that could be smaller, lighter, just as accurate, feed by hoses ... and that would totally solve the problem.

it wouldn't sell for ****, but that is becuase of the paradigm in paintball today, but it would be smaller and better.

so that is conflict with our subjective form (which is a response to the current methods we use for controlling the size and wieght in our guns). but the objective "smaller is better" is still true. the mini is a problem becuase you need to hands to control a paintball gun, and it doesn't have enough room for that. take the second hand out of the mix by taking the loader and air off ....



a less dramatic example -

most guns these days are smaller and lighter then ever before, but you notice they are getting longer. more and more guns are pushing to forgrip out in front farther to facilitate a much hunched over and longer shooting stance. so they can get smaller and lighter, as long as the ergonomics of a bit larger gun are present.

[Ando]

did i ever say you couldn't be competetive with the latest and greatest with a mag?


Saying and implying are same same.

[cockerpunk]

And Automags are tuned from the factory. ANY marker will go out of tune if given time and play... By the way "outdoing the techs" is not the only reason to adjust your LPR or dwell; new bolts, regulators, and entirely new boards (extremely common upgrades) are usually the motivation behind adjustments. In the same vein, a new body will require you to retune your mag. It's really not that different a story there.

And I've got to ask, how would a gun that weighed nothing be a good thing? I'm not saying that lighter is worse, I'm not saying that lighter is better, I'm just saying that the weight difference you're talking about is negligible. The difference of a pound or two is one thing, but a few ounces is nearly meaningless. Without hoppers or tanks, an Xmag weighs 2.61b and an Ego10 weighs 2.14lb. Do you REALLY believe your snap-shooting is significantly effected by +/-7.52oz? Is an extra 7.52oz that big a test of stamina?



The fact of the matter is that there is a minor weight difference and significant difference in air efficiency...

My question is this; if you get a team full of guys with Xmags and a team full of guys with Egos, is one at a disadvantage in an Xball game? The most common tank size is 68/45. The most common packs these days are 4+3, and both teams could empty them with a full tank. Both markers are capable of EASILY meeting and sustaining the max ROF, and have the necesary modes/settings. Would a 7.5oz weight difference, slightly larger marker size, and possible "feedneck height variation" give a significant advantage to one team or the other?





My point exactly.

belief is subjective.

lighter is faster. F=mA less mass is faster. this is a mathmatical truth in the universe. coservation of energy, less mass requires less work to move ... this is a mathmatical constant in the universe. smaller means less size means smaller to hit ...


the classic example of this argument my thread about "why did we still have vert feed guns?" well, we have vert feed guns because we used to have gravity feeds. well, now most people don't use gravity feeds on there high end guns ... so why are high end guns still vert feed? well, because we have a shooting form that makes vert feed work good enough. ok, but that shooting form is based on the requirement for gravity feed, which we don't have anymore.

instead, paradigm shift. a gun that doesn't have the air and paint on the the gun ... it would require a different form, it would be smaller, lighter, easier to point and aim, faster to get on target ...

[cockerpunk]

Saying and implying are same same.

i didn't imply it either. if you got that implication then you are incorrect. i only said how much i enjoy playing with pumps and mechs against electros and that you can be very effective with them. i personally have not played with a gun that was made before 2004 in ... damn ... i think 2 years. yeah, newest gun i have played with is a karnivior in 2 years. i take that back, i have played with newer guns, just not owned them.

[OPBN]

but the objective "smaller is better" is still true.
I can guarantee, you will find few women that will agree with this statement.

And it's still subjective my friend.

[cockerpunk]

I can guarantee, you will find few women that will agree with this statement.

And it's still subjective my friend.

compelling argument :rolleyes:

if thats all you got :cheers:

[Frizzle Fry]

belief is subjective.

lighter is faster. F=mA less mass is faster. this is a mathmatical truth in the universe. coservation of energy, less mass requires less work to move ... this is a mathmatical constant in the universe. smaller means less size means smaller to hit ...


the classic example of this argument my thread about "why did we still have vert feed guns?" well, we have vert feed guns because we used to have gravity feeds. well, now most people don't use gravity feeds on there high end guns ... so why are high end guns still vert feed? well, because we have a shooting form that makes vert feed work good enough. ok, but that shooting form is based on the requirement for gravity feed, which we don't have anymore.

instead, paradigm shift. a gun that doesn't have the air and paint on the the gun ... it would require a different form, it would be smaller, lighter, easier to point and aim, faster to get on target ...

:rofl:

And you miss my point entirely... I supposed Nascar drivers all shave their heads and clip their fingernails before a race, right? It's a NEGLIGIBLE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE. I know that between typos and false assertions you like to wax intellectual for a post or two, but please try to stay relevant... Tiny weight and size differences barely effect game play, if at all.

Your vert feed gun theory is flawed, too, but thanks for the self promotion, "professor". We've had forcefed loaders for a decade, and speedball shooting form has been through many radical changes over that time period, from the "mantis" to that goofy British hand-basked grip, without settling in one place for too long. It might have something to do with (gasp) the fact that what is comfortable and effective for one person isn't necessarily comfortable and effective for another, a fact that you apparently are incapable of wrapping your head around. The warpfeed was available with Automag and Angel specific parts and has never really take off, while the woodsball crowd has welcomed the idea of under-fed markers (magazines, warps, qloaders, etc) because it allows them to site down the barrel.

[leloup]

i think you guys are lacking a knowledge in objective vs subjective aspects.

objectivly we can compare kick, consistency, efficiency, sound, pull length and weight, fedneck hieght, weight, size, theoretically we could do relaiably, but that invloves how a player interacts with the gun such as maintinace, cleaning, general treatment .... litterally dozens of factors in a gun. and in most the mag is either on par, or behind a modern gun. objectivly the gun is worse.


"Worse" is a subjective term. And your "objective" arguments are all preference (aside from efficiency and consistency which still can be argued as subjective), not proven superior. I know many players who like kick and weight. I like the sound signature of an unported barrel. Pull length is total preference and so is feed neck height (too short is bad for my sport shot). Not all people like shorter guns, if they did, no one would have purchased a stack tube. Paintball is all about preference and marketing. That is why we label egos as "high end" where as the real performance difference is so tiny over other markers. Marketing also dictates who uses what markers in the pros, so we rec players like to imitate. I'll bet you think Nike shoes are better than other brands because they cost more. But, they wear out just as quick as a new balance.

[cockerpunk]

:rofl:

And you miss my point entirely... I supposed Nascar drivers all shave their heads and clip their fingernails before a race, right? It's a NEGLIGIBLE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE. I know that between typos and false assertions you like to wax intellectual for a post or two, but please try to stay relevant... Tiny weight and size differences barely effect game play, if at all.

Your vert feed gun theory is flawed, too, but thanks for the self promotion, "professor". We've had forcefed loaders for a decade, and speedball shooting form has been through many radical changes over that time period, from the "mantis" to that goofy British hand-basked grip, without settling in one place for too long. It might have something to do with (gasp) the fact that what is comfortable and effective for one person isn't necessarily comfortable and effective for another, a fact that you apparently are incapable of wrapping your head around. The warpfeed was available with Automag and Angel specific parts and has never really take off, while the woodsball crowd has welcomed the idea of under-fed markers (magazines, warps, qloaders, etc) because it allows them to site down the barrel.

see your just not making the conceputal jump i am. the fact that you can't understand the vert feed problem merely double illistrates the point.

im not talking about negligable weight differences. i totally agree 1 oz makes very little difference. but emags are not 1 oz weight difference from ego ten, more like 1.2 pounds difference, which yes, you can feel after a day of play. add to that the weight difference in a 68 compared to a 45 and your talking about serious weight. but what im talking about with stuff like paradigm shifts is again, big drops in weight. if you take the loader adn tank off the gun, the gun total wieghts in at 1.5 pounds, instead of 6-8 pounds ... if that isn't a HUGE difference i don't know what is. that is the difference between revolutionary changes and refining changes.

we have refined paintball equipment down one path so far that we can't see outside of it. we are on (depending on how you count) the 8th generation of the powered hopped loader. so of coruse a 1st generation system like the warpfeed makes no sense at all. systems like qloader are even worse ... they are like the 0th generation of that system. of course they don't compete with an 8th generation refined system like modern super loaders.


you need to take a step back and see the forrest.

[OPBN]

compelling argument :rolleyes:

if thats all you got :cheers:
All that I'm willing to waste on it.

[cockerpunk]

"Worse" is a subjective term. And your "objective" arguments are all preference (aside from efficiency and consistency which still can be argued as subjective), not proven superior. I know many players who like kick and weight. I like the sound signature of an unported barrel. Pull length is total preference and so is feed neck height (too short is bad for my sport shot). Not all people like shorter guns, if they did, no one would have purchased a stack tube. Paintball is all about preference and marketing. That is why we label egos as "high end" where as the real performance difference is so tiny over other markers. Marketing also dictates who uses what markers in the pros, so we rec players like to imitate. I'll bet you think Nike shoes are better than other brands because they cost more. But, they wear out just as quick as a new balance.

i don't think you are reading my posts at all. i spefically mention that i enjoy loud guns. i love heavier guns ...

i bolded all your subjective statments. thats the exact point im making. just becuase someone likes something doesn't make it better in the objective performance. a louder gun is worse in paintball. makes communicating harder, makes moving and shooting stealthy harder ... but i LOVE a loud gun. i am a huge sucker for a loud gun. then again, i just like loud things in general ... :D

seriously, try reading my posts. its pretty clear your not even reading them.

[Ando]

i didn't imply it either.
:tard: :tard: :tard: Am I going crazy or is what you posted not what I read and what I read is not what you meant? :tard: :tard: :tard:

Get off your box, put your spray can/paper bag down and actually read what you posted or do I seriously need to go through all 3 pages and start quoting you so you can realize what your saying.

[Spider-TW]

:tard: :tard: :tard: Am I going crazy or is what you posted not what I read and what I read is not what you meant? :tard: :tard: :tard:

Get off your box, put your spray can/paper bag down and actually read what you posted or do I seriously need to go through all 3 pages and start quoting you so you can realize what your saying.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[cockerpunk]

:tard: :tard: :tard: Am I going crazy or is what you posted not what I read and what I read is not what you meant? :tard: :tard: :tard:

Get off your box, put your spray can and paper bag down and read what you've said or do I seriously need to go through all 3 pages and start quoting you so you can realize what your saying.

go for it. i'd love to see where you think i said a mag can't compete or will cuase you to lose.

cause that is news to me. i must be an idiot for playing with my stock class phantom and all those electro guys ... heck, we even play outnumbered pumps vs semis ... thats WAY worse then an automag out there against an ego. thanks for telling me!

your making a fundmamental assumption in my position that simply isn't there.

[Frizzle Fry]

i totally agree 1 oz makes very little difference. but emags are not 1 oz weight difference from ego ten, more like 1.2 pounds difference, which yes, you can feel after a day of play

You'll note that I actually weighed both the Xmag and Ego10 in my posts referencing their weight difference. It's not 1.2lb difference iit's 7.5oz as a stated several times. As for the difference between a 45/45 and a 68/45, that would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that most people use 68/45s... I would go as far as saying that it's a standard.

[Ando]

This is all you talking. I'm not drawing at straws, I didn't put words in your mouth, miss quote you in any way so don't play that card.



mags are great, cockers are awesome, epics are epic ... but funtionally they simply don't compete with modern guns.

these guns are like the "bullet" mustang ... indefiniably cool, but sorry, modern cars are better performing.

are they as good as there modern equalents - heck no. sorry. those are the facts of the case.

i know that when i walk out onto a feild with an automag, cocker, or pump, i am outgunned. so what is all i have to say about that.

a mag is simply not as high performance a gun as even mid level markers these days, ergo, when talking a mag onto a feild of mid and high end guns, you are outgunned. simple as that. they have as good or better technology in there hands then you do ... you are outgunned.

why are you guys apologetics for your equipment? the simple fact is your mag isn't the best, and has not been for closer to 10 years then 5 years.

so what? why is that fact hard to wrap your head around? thats the reason i love to shoot mags, because they are worse guns.

put it this way. i would use the term "outguned" even if we were playing speedball and everyone was capped at 8 bps and i was playing with my emag, and someone else was playing with an ego10. he still has a better gun then me. maybe not faster, certainly not cooler, and probably not even as valuable ... but a better gun.
i don't understand how your not grasping this simple concept. the mid to high level guns of today are FAR supirior in every way compared to even the best guns of early 2000s, including the E/X mag.


its just silly to me. mags, cockers, love them. but i don't love them becuase they are any better then any other gun, i love them because they are worse then every other gun.

I have a life and kids to pick up from school, i'm not quoting everything you've said. If this isn't calling them inferior or can't be competitive then I don't know what is.

EDIT: And I'm not making a "fundmamental" assumption on what your saying...It's there in black and white. BTW...Use spell ck once in a while, trying to figure out what your saying or getting at is giving me a headache and probably where the communication break down is or was that your plan all along :p

[cockerpunk]

You'll note that I actually weighed both the Xmag and Ego10 in my posts referencing their weight difference. It's not 1.2lb difference iit's 7.5oz as a stated several times. As for the difference between a 45/45 and a 68/45, that would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that most people use 68/45s... I would go as far as saying that it's a standard.

i wouldn't say that at all. i use a 45/45 on all my guns besides automags. 45/45 is the new drop forward ;)

[Frizzle Fry]

I have a life and kids to pick up from school, i'm not quoting everything you've said. If this isn't calling them inferior or can't be competitive then I don't know what is.

I'm off myself, so you'll get no additional quotes from me, but I will say there is no way of talking yourself out of the statement about mags being "worse than every other gun" on the field.


As for the 68/45 versus 45/45 thing, your personal preference is not necessarily the norm. Most people use 68/45s... I'm very sorry for that.

[cockerpunk]

This is all you talking. I'm not drawing at straws, I didn't put words in your mouth, miss quote you in any way so don't play that card.








I have a life and kids to pick up from school, i'm not quoting everything you've said. If this isn't calling them inferior or can't be competitive then I don't know what is.

and no where did i say that playing with a mag means you can't compete or that playing with a mag will cost you a game. i said they are infirior, i never said it would cost you a game or you can't compete on a modern paintball feild with them. infirior jsut means its worse ... so what? just becuase the other guy can bench more then me and i am physically infirior to him doesn't mean he will win in paintball.

quite the opposite really, i play pump, mech and older electro all the time, i love it.

i said a mag isn't as high performance, and i backed that up. k, so what? my phantom is not a high performance gun, but i still rock faces with it. faces that are often shooting much higher performance guns.

GG, really, GG.

me playing:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/4712986954_1c4c90c6e5.jpg

i count 5 electros and a metadyne in this pic - OH NOES

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/4712325987_3d149dbc87.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/minnesota_scenario_paintball111.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/DSC_2221.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/P1010034.jpg

dont have any pics of me playing with this one, but i do from time to time (and it rocks!!!)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/DSC01104.jpg

even speedball!!! with a PUMP automag ... oh noes!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/448804851_2EqGf-M.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/448817846_CgLoN-M.jpg




wow, i didn't realize that i couldn't compete. so sorry to lead you on ...


GG dude, really.

[Ando]

WTF are you talking about?!?!? You just called them a POS compared to other markers. What? Where not suppose to read into that?

You got a damn screw loose :argh:

[cockerpunk]

WTF are you talking about?!?!? You just called them a POS compared to other markers. What? Where not suppose to read into that?

You got a damn screw loose :argh:

i certanly didn't call them a POS. i said they arn't as good as other markers that have come out in the last 5-10 years. your the one with the screw loose assuming pieces of an arugment that doesn't exist.

[Frizzle Fry]

i certanly didn't call them a POS. i said they arn't as good as other markers that have come out in the last 5-10 years. your the one with the screw loose assuming pieces of an arugment that doesn't exist.

You said that they were worse than any other marker. That's what you said, verbatim.

You said that playing with an Automag puts you at a disadvantage.

There's more. Maybe you should go back and read your own posts?

[Ando]

i certanly didn't call them a POS. i said they arn't as good as other markers.
Semantics, which is what you write in 100% of the time.

"I want an escort to escort our penises in to her vagina" - Lou


your the one with the screw loose assuming pieces of an arugment that doesn't exist.

WHAT? :tard:

EDIT: Come out to TB5 and we'll show you what a inferior marker can do...

[cockerpunk]

You said that they were worse than any other marker. That's what you said, verbatim.

You said that playing with an Automag puts you at a disadvantage.

There's more. Maybe you should go back and read your own posts?

show me where i said "mags are worse then any other marker"

anytime you play with an infirior piece of equipment you will be at a disadvantage. you will also be at a disadvantage if you ate chipotle 2 hours before playing, or were fighting with your wife/gf the night before ... ok, so what? your also at a disadvantage if you have worse paint, or it was stored longer, or your gun is overlubed or any million things. so what?

maybe you should read my posts and not extrapolate the ideas in them to mean terrible things? maybe you should read how much fun i think mags are, how great i say they shoot, and how much i love them?

idk, im not standing behind you when you read my posts, i can only write what i think. i can't make you understand them if you assume im a mag hater (which anyone who knows me for 5 seconds knows i am not) hell, my GF knows i love automags and she doesn't know **** about paintball.


EDIT: Come out to TB5 and we'll show you what a inferior marker can do...

being a frequent mag shooter, i know full well how great mags are.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/CIMG0471.jpg

the only gun different in my current collection is that i now have a red smear classic RT instead of the black one.

has the double macro-line still though :headbang:

[leloup]

i don't think you are reading my posts at all. i spefically mention that i enjoy loud guns. i love heavier guns ...

i bolded all your subjective statments. thats the exact point im making. just becuase someone likes something doesn't make it better in the objective performance. a louder gun is worse in paintball. makes communicating harder, makes moving and shooting stealthy harder ... but i LOVE a loud gun. i am a huge sucker for a loud gun. then again, i just like loud things in general ... :D

seriously, try reading my posts. its pretty clear your not even reading them.

You misinterpreted my post. The point I was making is that your statements of a marker being better or superior to another are only founded on subjectivity, not objectivity. I agree with you that loud is fun, however, on a small speed ball field, markers are not really loud enough to hamper a nice throaty yell. As for your statement about weight, maybe you should start hunting or join the armed services. Fire arms are heavy, and I don't have a problem shouldering my Mosin Nagant (9lbs) around hunting the entire day. Marker weight is preference. And for the love of all things good, use fire fox to spell check. I thought you were in grad school.

[Ando]

show me where i said "mags are worse then any other marker"



its just silly to me. mags, cockers, love them. but i don't love them becuase they are any better then any other gun, i love them because they are worse then every other gun.
:rofl: ...I give up. You guys have a nice day beating your head against this wall here.

[cockerpunk]

You misinterpreted my post. The point I was making is that your statements of a marker being better or superior to another are only founded on subjectivity, not objectivity. I agree with you that loud is fun, however, on a small speed ball field, markers are not really loud enough to hamper a nice throaty yell. As for your statement about weight, maybe you should start hunting or join the armed services. Fire arms are heavy, and I don't have a problem shouldering my Mosin Nagant (9lbs) around hunting the entire day. Marker weight is preference. And for the love of all things good, use fire fox to spell check. I thought you were in grad school.

no, i get exactly what you mean. and i don't disagree except that "good enough" isn't "best" there is always room for improvement. you can always make a gun smaller, lighter and better. sometimes that might require paradigm shifts or changes in form, or any number of things, but that doesn't mean that a gun that weighs nothing wouldn't help you run faster. it sure as heck would! and you would be able to play for longer, move faster, and be better at everything.

there is better technology-wise, and then there is preference. i prefer technologically inferior guns. they are more fun. i don't deny that that the new stuff is better then my equipment, because it is. but thats ok with me, i still choose to shoot inferior guns becuase i like them more, and i can compete with them just the same. knowing the gun is worse doesn't mean i can't have fun with it, shoot poeple with it, modify it ...

EDIT: if you want to argue that "for the purpose of eliminating other players with paintballs" is a subjective metric, then i'll grant you the point. but that happens to be the goal of the game, so for this argument i would assume that to be an objective metric.

[cockerpunk]

:rofl: ...I give up. You guys have a nice day beating your head against this wall here.

oh damn. got me. i'll surrender to that one. :p

i could go on into "what i ment was" and "the context was ..." stuff, but thats not right. i put the challenge out there and fell into my own trap.

i think you understand what i mean now, by mags being inferior and yet still great fun. :shooting:


EDIT - ill raise you double or nothing if you can count how many times i compliment mags in this thread though :)

DOUBLE EDIT - 666th post woot

[wimag]

settle down Mike and dont get your panties crammed in a knot to far up your vagina.

[Spider-TW]

settle down Mike and dont get your panties crammed in a knot to far up your vagina.
You mean don't get vajazzled?

666th, wow. I was just thinking what a devil's advocate you were being, CP. :argh:

[Frizzle Fry]

:rofl: ...I give up. You guys have a nice day beating your head against this wall here.

Forget it, Jake; it's Chinatown :rolleyes:

[djinnform]

I have a Proto Rail that I bought for $300 plus mods. It never needs tuning, it's super accruate at long distance with Evil Paint, weighs nothing, I can walk it really fast, never breaks paint, no problems besides that it eats 9 V batteries as snacks.

But, I hardly ever use it.

I prefer my heavy and problematic AA\MM that I bought in 1994, with mods for about $2,500, and have recently dumped another $1,500 messing with it, based on all these forums, and the infinite combinations of springs, rings, barrels, barrel inserts, frames, bodies, tanks, tank valves, ASA, drops....

I'm seeking to build my perfect dream gun, but I haven't quite see the final vision yet.

I think it will be the a pneumag pump!!

[Tunaman]

I really dont know how that is the case. You are doing something wrong. :rolleyes:
Absolutely right. Something is wrong. Out Gunned? I think not. Bring it on. ;)

[bound for glory]

heres my take: i've shot mags scince the beginning. i've had every type except the mini and xmag. i shoot a russian legion timmy, and it rocks, but if i had the money, i would'nt think twice about getting another emag. it is so weird walking onto a field without a warped emag...i still have fun, but i wish for an emag.