Who can do it?

[Beemer]

Give me the FPS on EVERY ball AT ANY BPS.

The red chrono is easy at one BPS.

BPS really dont mean a thing if you dont know the FPS on EVERY ball in that second.

I say there is a drop.[cant prove it yet] If you chrono at 300FPS at one[BPS] I would bet that at ten BPS, FPS would drop and then level off.

I am even tempted to bet that if I chroned an X-Valve at 285 at one BPS then at ten or more BPS FULL AUTO I would be at about 295 CONSISTENTLY for EVERY ball.

I have vid of the EMag at twenty BPS Full auto but no clue at the FPS on every one of those twenty balls

This leads to the question, what is the MOST consistent gun and at what FPS.

I always see the adds.........This gun is so consistent OR extreme consistency. I call shens till someone posts or tells the REAL numbers.

I have or can get everything I need EXCEPT the chrono to read the FPS on anything more then eight BPS.

68 cal. Barrel Bore. Check.
68 cal. Three Gram round nylon balls. Check
Ability to make most guns on the market shoot full auto at a set BPS[not pumps] Check
Device, Chrono or super high speed camera to measure FPS on EVERY ball at high BPS. :(

I know for a fact that on HPA at one BPS the Classic Valve will shoot plus or minus one FPS

[MANN]

This leads to the question, what is the MOST consistent gun and at what FPS.

My most consistent gun is my excal. I actually played with it for the first time today. I did nothing to it other than install a new battery since I purchased it from eric a ~year ago. The chrono readings were 288 289 291 288 290 or there about. It did not vary more than 3bps when shooting 10 or so rounds. I was highly surprised. My viking is consistent, but no where near as broke in as the excal. Its almost as it has got better with age.

As for shooting 10bps, and chronoing every ball. Who cares? There is not enough demand for such a device to reason designing/producing/selling such a thing. And if one were produced your average paintballer would not want to spend the money to own one.

[IrishRedneck86]

your best bet would be a laser chrono like they use on Deadliest Warrior maybe or high speed camera in front of a alternating color board with set distances like they do on Mythbusters other than that normal cronos arent made to record high rates of fire besides how would you read one if your shooting at anything over 8-10BPS I mean my eysight is good and quick but not that quick as the number would flash on the screen so you need video or computer records to look back on to confirm

[Beemer]

My most consistent gun is my excal. I actually played with it for the first time today. I did nothing to it other than install a new battery since I purchased it from eric a ~year ago. The chrono readings were 288 289 291 288 290 or there about. It did not vary more than 3bps when shooting 10 or so rounds. I was highly surprised. My viking is consistent, but no where near as broke in as the excal. Its almost as it has got better with age.

As for shooting 10bps, and chronoing every ball. Who cares? There is not enough demand for such a device to reason designing/producing/selling such a thing. And if one were produced your average paintballer would not want to spend the money to own one.


Thats nice you chronoed at one ball per second?

I do. Do you shoot one BPS in game? My classic Mag is better then yours then. On HPA one BPS 299, 300, 298, 299,299,299. Thats + - ONE. My Mag is MORE consistant. ;)

I guess your post has a point. NO one knows no one cares. No one wants to know. :(

[Beemer]

your best bet would be a laser chrono like they use on Deadliest Warrior maybe or high speed camera in front of a alternating color board with set distances like they do on Mythbusters other than that normal cronos arent made to record high rates of fire besides how would you read one if your shooting at anything over 8-10BPS I mean my eysight is good and quick but not that quick as the number would flash on the screen so you need video or computer records to look back on to confirm

Yup high speed camera with a distance chart for backdrop. :D Frames per second and elapsed time or built in timer and bingo we got FPS on evey ball. :eek:

[MANN]

Thats nice you chronoed at one ball per second?

I do. Do you shoot one BPS in game? My classic Mag is better then yours then. On HPA one BPS 299, 300, 298, 299,299,299. Thats + - ONE. My Mag is MORE consistant. ;)

I guess your post has a point. NO one knows no one cares. No one wants to know. :(

I know it was less than 4 balls per second because the chrono kicks into where it reads the bps instead of the speed of the ball.

I always did find it intriguing that the classic mag valve was more consistent than the xvalve (or at least in my experiences). It is neat that you can change the velocity by changing the way you hold the trigger.

I was still highly impressed with the excal. The barrel was no where near the right size. Today I played with paint that rolled freely through a .681 barrel. I was highly disappointed with the field paint.

[Beemer]

I know it was less than 4 balls per second because the chrono kicks into where it reads the bps instead of the speed of the ball.

I always did find it intriguing that the classic mag valve was more consistent than the xvalve (or at least in my experiences). It is neat that you can change the velocity by changing the way you hold the trigger.

I was still highly impressed with the excal. The barrel was no where near the right size. Today I played with paint that rolled freely through a .681 barrel. I was highly disappointed with the field paint.

This would be a controlled test. see first post.

68 barrel
68 round nylon ball at 3 grams.

You DONT know how consistent the X-Valve is at HIGH BPS do you?

At ten or more BPS full auto my money is going on the X-Valve. Till we can prove other wise. ;)

[BigEvil]

This thread should be locked until someone produces a chrono that can do this test. Unless there is something you are not telling us Bummer?




Just sayin' :D















Oh, and don't ban me.

[going_home]

I guess your post has a point. NO one knows no one cares. No one wants to know. :(


Lotta love in here.
I can feel it.





:rolleyes:

[Smoothice]

:rolleyes:


Thanks for spreading the love as always...

[Smoothice]

Have TK call up mythbusters. He can tell them that they can do a test on his mustache IF they let you guys use their high speed cameras. :D

[kcombs9]

Yup high speed camera with a distance chart for backdrop. :D Frames per second and elapsed time or built in timer and bingo we got FPS on evey ball. :eek:

Punkworks could do that test with the high speed camera they have...

[Beemer]

This thread should be locked until someone produces a chrono that can do this test. Unless there is something you are not telling us Bummer?


Just sayin' :D

Oh, and don't ban me.


You must be slow and missed my user title. There is always something I aint telling.
Ban whats a Ban? Dis me again and I will Ban you like I have more then once before. I think you are smart enough to contribute. If you arent sure, dont post in this thread. Back on topic.



Punkworks could do that test with the high speed camera they have...


Hmmm. Where are they?

[hill160881]

no high speed camera needed just use a gun clamp and a target at the outermost accurate range of the marker(make sure the marker wont move when it is fired)

Make sure you use good paint for this.

Shoot and observe the difference in where one bps hits and if there is any drop in where it is hitting when a rope is pulled. A camera at say 30 FPS could get that easily, just zoom up on the target and compare the two videos side by side on a computer. Hell draw reference lines on the target

If there is any noticeable drop in where it is grouping the shoots then yes, it is loosing speed if not then it isn't.

Of corse not a test that will give you a # but it will confirm the theory, or not.

I dont think it will be any more of a drop than the normal inconsistency the marker shows when fired slowly. Unless the marker is not tuned properly. It is noticeable when a marker has shoot drop off because it wont stack paint until well into the rope.

Just my thoughts on the theory

[Beemer]

no high speed camera needed just use a gun clamp and a target at the outermost accurate range of the marker(make sure the marker wont move when it is fired)

Make sure you use good paint for this.

Shoot and observe the difference in where one bps hits and if there is any drop in where it is hitting when a rope is pulled. A camera at say 30 FPS could get that easily, just zoom up on the target and compare the two videos side by side on a computer. Hell draw reference lines on the target

If there is any noticeable drop in where it is grouping the shoots then yes, it is loosing speed if not then it isn't.

Of corse not a test that will give you a # but it will confirm the theory, or not.

I dont think it will be any more of a drop than the normal inconsistency the marker shows when fired slowly.


Excellent and a good post. But if you do that you dont have a good control. You would have to weigh and measure every ball.

We have a 68 cal bore barrel with a 68 cal round nylon ball at 3 grams as a control.

Your last sentence is the point. If it drops at all I have to compesate when I aim.[walk it in]
Its basic. Consistency equils accuracy. ;)

If you have to walk it in you are in consistent. To be accurate you need to hold the line at the range you are shooting.

Edit........

Why do think the cheaters are using the velocity ramp. you cant be good at aiming walking it in. you have to hold the line.

[hill160881]

Excellent and a good post. But if you do that you dont have a good control. You would have to weigh and measure every ball.

That is why you would need a separate target for the slow speed shooting and one for the fast shooting and compare the groupings on each. This way you get the averages on each, slow and fast without them overlapping.

When done draw a circle around the groupings and find its center, on both the shoot up targets. Find the amount of change form the slow target to the fast one.


Then using the control balls find the difference in fps (with a crono) to get said drop and there is the drop in velocity.( close enough to put up some numbers or get a ruff idea)

[StygShore]

I would actually like to know the results of a test like this - Shooting my Invert mini, I always feel like it looses some range when i rapid fire. Assuming it is not the recharge rate of my tank reg ( Ninja ) I would like to know if its really shooting lower FPS or if it is just my imagination.


Styg

[Hobbez]

The fact of the matter of this issue comes down to this:

If your shooting fast enough to out-run the recharge rate of your gun or tank, your shooting too much paint...... Let me know where you play so I can go somewhere else.

[hill160881]

The fact of the matter of this issue comes down to this:

If your shooting fast enough to out-run the recharge rate of your gun or tank, your shooting too much paint...... Let me know where you play so I can go somewhere else.

O no it will be a surprise. When i gave up my mechanical and begrudgingly joined the electro ranks, i decided to add my accuracy to a three fingered pull. Now i will make everyone pay for resting my beloved mini-mag from my grip and switching me to the wagner power painters. :shooting:

My smoothest and fastest electro(in my opinion) and the one i use on ramping fields.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suz4u7KfPxE

If you ask why then you need only remember the urge to strangel the bastard ramping on you and your mechanical marker.

If you cant beat them, join them. :cry:

Edit:I dont think this one looses velocity when i rip it unless the lpr is turned down.

[pillage]

When I had a Viking it was pretty consistent chrono-wise when shooting slow, but I never did a high speed chrono check. I did notice if I was hammering on the Viking, that there was some slight reduction in range, so I am guessing even it had some shootdown, while in hose mode. On the other hand I have had good consistency out of Mags and Cockers too, but the thought of doing a control with 68 caliber nylon bearings did not occur to me. It is an interesting idea never the less.:D

[kcombs9]

Hmmm. Where are they?

Cockerpunk is a member here

[snoopay700]

Yup high speed camera with a distance chart for backdrop. :D Frames per second and elapsed time or built in timer and bingo we got FPS on evey ball. :eek:
The only problem i see with this is placement. You would have to ensure that the markers are chronoed to ~300 fps and that they were in the same position when chronoed (i.e. 1 inch overhang if using one of the red type of chronographs) then that the end of the barrels are at teh same distance from the start of the meter. That entails that the mount for the markers needs to be adjustable for back and forth movement. It's doable, but it's something that needs to be considered if you want the test to be worth anything.

Styg also brings up a good point, each and every marker should be used with multiple tanks to see if that is what is causing the inconsistency, or if it is the reg on the marker. It would really just come down (mostly) to the recharge rate of the reg, so that way we could also see what the most consistent regs are.

[punkncat]

Give me the FPS on EVERY ball AT ANY BPS.

The red chrono is easy at one BPS.

BPS really dont mean a thing if you dont know the FPS on EVERY ball in that second.

I say there is a drop.[cant prove it yet] If you chrono at 300FPS at one[BPS] I would bet that at ten BPS, FPS would drop and then level off.

I am even tempted to bet that if I chroned an X-Valve at 285 at one BPS then at ten or more BPS FULL AUTO I would be at about 295 CONSISTENTLY for EVERY ball.

I have vid of the EMag at twenty BPS Full auto but no clue at the FPS on every one of those twenty balls

This leads to the question, what is the MOST consistent gun and at what FPS.

I always see the adds.........This gun is so consistent OR extreme consistency. I call shens till someone posts or tells the REAL numbers.

I have or can get everything I need EXCEPT the chrono to read the FPS on anything more then eight BPS.

68 cal. Barrel Bore. Check.
68 cal. Three Gram round nylon balls. Check
Ability to make most guns on the market shoot full auto at a set BPS[not pumps] Check
Device, Chrono or super high speed camera to measure FPS on EVERY ball at high BPS. :(

I know for a fact that on HPA at one BPS the Classic Valve will shoot plus or minus one FPS


Just as a thought. The PACT timer won't give you every ball on the display, but does give you the high FPS for a string. So, if you were to shoot your mag across one, you would be able to tell if it is, in fact, shooting up like the legend says.....

[Cold Steel]

Just as a thought. The PACT timer won't give you every ball on the display, but does give you the high FPS for a string. So, if you were to shoot your mag across one, you would be able to tell if it is, in fact, shooting up like the legend says.....
The PACT timer is not a chronograph at all. It is an acoustic listening device that measures the time between shots. This device is only used to tell how many balls per second a marker is shooting. PACT timers do have the means of recalling an entire shot string, shot for shot, and giving the interval between each shot.
The newest handheld paintball radar chronies can give you the average FPS in a string, but not the FPS of each ball within the string.

[Ruler_Mark]

excalibur.

[Beemer]

excalibur.


? :confused:

[punkncat]

The PACT timer is not a chronograph at all. It is an acoustic listening device that measures the time between shots. This device is only used to tell how many balls per second a marker is shooting. PACT timers do have the means of recalling an entire shot string, shot for shot, and giving the interval between each shot.
The newest handheld paintball radar chronies can give you the average FPS in a string, but not the FPS of each ball within the string.


Perhaps, then, I am misquoting the device being used. Small handheld that will run FPS, BPS, and show highest and lowest shot in string as well as the last 3 velocity. CFOA has been using it for years, and the GFOA may even have a couple of them, but I have not seen it first hand.

[zondo]

At a calibrated distance you have a sensor at the end of the barrel and one on a target board sensing impact. That way a computer can use the time distance equation for each ball that leaves the barrel. But that is only a measure.

[Cold Steel]

Perhaps, then, I am misquoting the device being used. Small handheld that will run FPS, BPS, and show highest and lowest shot in string as well as the last 3 velocity. CFOA has been using it for years, and the GFOA may even have a couple of them, but I have not seen it first hand.
Think we're talking about the same unit. http://www.paintballradar.com This unit does tell you FPS & BPS, is fairly economical and readily available through Kee Action Sports.

After looking into the PACT Timer a little deeper, it seems that the folks at PACT have indeed added a full function chronograph to their Mark IV line. The timers that I bought in 2005 & 2006 for CFOA use did not have the chronograph function. So, you were right.

Beemer, you might take a hard look at the new PACT Timer, the Mark IV XP, it might just be what you're looking for. PACT Timer (http://pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=68).

[athomas]

Just make something. It can be a device that fits onto the end of the barrel. Use two pairs of break-beam eyes with a known spacing. Measure the time between each beam for the velocity of the shot. Record each instance triggered by the activation at the first set of eyes. The time between each activation can be recorded as well and will give you the bps.

[Beemer]

Holy crap.........reread the thread and some of my grammer:} sucks. Oh well.

But wait here it is. For realz???

FPS on EVERY ball UP to 15BPS.

http://www.virtuepaintball.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=652&categoryID=192

So I used my 3.5Grams[no wimpy 3G balls here] 68cal nylon BALLS with my 68cal barrel and my Mag.

Two strings of fifteen BPS [auto] Plus minus 1 chronoed at 300FPS. Avg 299FPS.

So the question is...........what is the most consistent gun at ROF. Or should I up THAT thread I started too. ;)

[BigEvil]

I would bet good money it would not be a mag, at least not the most consistent. I would bet that the FPS and consistency would actually IMPROVE the faster it fired though...

[Ratt]

Alright Beemer - now all you have to do is start testing every gun out there, and post the results. if you don't have a particular gun, have someone send one to you. Might I suggest you start with something SP...?

[BigEvil]

Alright Beemer - now all you have to do is start testing every gun out there, and post the results. if you don't have a particular gun, have someone send one to you. Might I suggest you start with something SP...?


http://duels.cz/galerie/facebook_like_buton.jpg

[p8ntbal4me]

I would bet good money it would not be a mag, at least not the most consistent. I would bet that the FPS and consistency would actually IMPROVE the faster it fired though...


Didnt TK do this with an R/T and the WDP Angel????

[athomas]

RT is probably not the most consistent. The AIR/classic valve is more consistent than the RT.

Most of the time when we measure the consistency of the gun, we are in fact measuring the consistency of the regulator feeding it.

[p8ntbal4me]

RT is probably not the most consistent. The AIR/classic valve is more consistent than the RT.

Most of the time when we measure the consistency of the gun, we are in fact measuring the consistency of the regulator feeding it.


There are flow chart diagrams Tom made that would prove otherwise.

Im looking for them now.

In reality, no one cares about the consistency of the gun past the shots per tank by shots leaving the barrel.

Asking a player "how efficient is your guns internal regulator" at the field is going to give you an "i have no clue" answer back.

Ask the same player "how many shots per tank, per hopper do you get" question will give you an either opinionated or factual answer back.

[athomas]

Ask the same player "how many shots per tank, per hopper do you get" question will give you an either opinionated or factual answer back.This has nothing to do with consistency though. What you are quoting has to do with efficiency which is a different topic.

Velocity consistency is directly related to the consistency of the pressure in the firing chamber. This is directly related to how well the last regulator in the line maintains a consistent shot to shot pressure.

[Spider-TW]

I don't see why an RT valve, in reactive trigger mode, wouldn't be as consistent as anything else. It's practically oscillating with small end-collisions. You would be looking a variations in temperatures, finger pressure, and oil usage. The first few shots may be off a little as it gets up to speed, but if you need 15 balls, you don't need them all in the same spot.

[athomas]

With a RT valve, there is built-in delay from where the air enters to where the regulation takes place through air passages from the chamber to the piston. In an AIR valve, the air enters through the regulator directly at the point of feedback. The retro valve will never be as good as the AIR valve because of this, although it can come close, and it can forgive other manual issues that some users may have with AIR valves.

Even though the retro valve is very fast at recharging, any variation in any parameters, would cause an amplified effect on the pressure regulation. Theoretically, if the valve is controlled by a computer operated device, then this should not be an issue and it should be just as consistent as any other mag valve once the valve has reached its equilibrium for heat dissipation due to rapid air charging. But, for normal shot to shot consistency, I consider the heating/velocity increase as an inconsistency because the velocity varies depending on the rate of fire. Does that affect my choice of valves? Nope, I use my manual retro mag more than my AIR valved mag, because it is pretty darned close to perfect even with the inconsistency. :D

[Spider-TW]

I wouldn't consider any transport delays as a source of inconsistency necessarily, just an opportunity for it.

Sometimes I think we focus a little too much on the temperature effects in the RT valves just because TK documented it well. Other designs are not immune to temperature effects, they just don't show up visibly and haven't been documented.

I admit that the more efficient the design, the less temperature variations it should have. I know my Rainmaker gets pretty cold as I dump a bottle of air through it, as an extreme example. :rolleyes:

I guess I'm thinking that if you recorded a really good (or bad) string of 15 bps velocities in one second, will that prove anything more about a marker? I can probably get a good one second out of the Rainmaker at some point. I know I can get about four minutes out of an RT mag with at least fair consistency.

[Tropical Life]

https://www.ansgear.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VIRTUECLOCKCHRONOGR APH

Closest thing to get your reading I would say, with out a high tech recording device.

Missed post #31 I was kinda wondering why no one had said it already, np.

[Spider-TW]

https://www.ansgear.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VIRTUECLOCKCHRONOGR APH

Closest thing to get your reading I would say, with out a high tech recording device.

That's a neat machine.

[Tropical Life]

Pricey but I think totally worth it..

:ninja: EBAY...

[Tao]

There is some irrelevancy to what guns can be consistent at high bps cause of the bolt cycle frequency. We all know that hoppers which claim 20bps feed rate wont ever feed that fast, well this is a symptom of what I mean:

The bolt cycle frequency is important because the time the bolt is loitering blocking the breach which pushing the ball down the barrel, it is taking up valuable feeding time. WARPIG did a feed rate test of many guns several years ago, and the automag X valve came up the fastest bolt frequency (despite the lvl10 bolt not going full speed at the start!)

Unfortunately this has always been the other half to having a fast feeding hopper, but no one has every caught on to this fact.

Anyway sure some guns out there might be consistent at 20+ bps but good luck feeding some of those guns consistently. With all the hype of worthless features such as gun weight, im sure bolt cycle frequencies between high end markers will vary from good to poor.

[Beemer]

This thread should be locked until someone produces a chrono that can do this test. Unless there is something you are not telling us Bummer?

Just sayin' :D

Oh, and don't ban me.


^^^^^LOL post 8 from october 2010. Aint locked now. :eek:

[BigEvil]

^^^^^LOL post 8 from october 2010. Aint locked now. :eek:

So did you order it yet? Get me some reballs and send it over and I will get to work :P