Why no shorter aftermarket bodies?

[OPBN]

I understand the concept of wanting the new bodies/rails to be compatible with E lowers, thus broadening your market but why isn't anyone making AM/MM length bodies/rails??? Is there really not much of a market for them anymore? Seems like the only option is the MM2K9 or paying $500+ for a Dallara set. I like the looks of some of the Venomous design combos, but honestly hate the look of most of them with mech lowers due to them being longer to accomodate E-lowers.

[leloup]

RPG bodies? I have one that I would sell if you are interested...:D

[OPBN]

Wanting to see some more elaborate type bodies, not cut down Ules.

[Xmagterror]

I understand the concept of wanting the new bodies/rails to be compatible with E lowers, thus broadening your market but why isn't anyone making AM/MM length bodies/rails??? Is there really not much of a market for them anymore? Seems like the only option is the MM2K9 or paying $500+ for a Dallara set. I like the looks of some of the Venomous design combos, but honestly hate the look of most of them with mech lowers.


Do a search for XT customs. We have been making them for 4 years now. only catch is you need to use a RT Pro sear with our rails. We are the makers of the Ripper, Phoenix, and soon to be re-released shockwave unibody.

[OPBN]

Do a search for XT customs. We have been making them for 4 years now. only catch is you need to use a RT Pro sear with our rails. We are the makers of the Ripper, Phoenix, and soon to be re-released shockwave unibody.

All of which are Emag length....

[Mongoose]

We have a few designs in the works.....just need to catch up with everything we have already released.

We will be releasing many new Mag products in 2011

[OPBN]

We have a few designs in the works.....just need to catch up with everything we have already released.

We will be releasing many new Mag products in 2011
But will they be AM/MM length? Seems like with the Pneu ready frames and VER frames out that someone would start making the shorter length bodies/rails. I hate the gap between the frame and front grip when using mech frames on Emag length uppers. I realize you offer a front grip for your setups, but I would still like to see that shorter ones available.

I'm in line for a MMK2K9, but honestly, the only reason I bought it was I couldnt find anything out there that was the shorter length unless I wanted to invest $500 in a raw Dallara set. I would think if someone would offer a nice AM/MM length body and rail set in the $250-350 range, they would sell.

Anyone elses thoughts?

[splat15k]

Anyone elses thoughts?

I agree with the points you've made; I have always preferred the AM/MM platform over the RT length stuff.



But will they be AM/MM length?

According to previous posts, Mongoose does indeed plan on doing some AM/MM length products in the future...much to the dismay of my wallet.

[RogueFactor]

... I couldnt find anything out there that was the shorter length unless I wanted to invest $500 in a raw Dallara set.

Anyone elses thoughts?

The Chord v2 was AM/MM length and looked good with the stock AGD AM/MM rail.

[OPBN]

The Chord v2 was AM/MM length and looked good with the stock AGD AM/MM rail.
Agreed. I forgot about that one. I am not worried so much about them fitting the stock rail. I am willing to buy a new rail, I just want the shorter design to get rid of the goofy 2 inch gap between the frame and front grip on E length uppers when mech lowers are used.

It makes me wonder to a certain degree if this is the element that has been missing lately from some of the released products. I mean, I would have thought the Magnus frame would have flown off of the shelves and the VER frame would have sold out relatively quickly as well. But it seems like the Magnus frame must not have been as much of a success as they planned since from what I gather another run isn't planned, and the VER frame has only presold like 13 frames so far. Is it because there are no "proper" length platforms to put them on? I mean PTP was able to presell over 100 MM2K9 bodies, and have people willing to wait 3 years for them to get done. Others with E length products don't seem to sell as quickly.

[leloup]

You could make a custom foregrip to solve the problem with the gap between the frame and grip.

[OPBN]

You could make a custom foregrip to solve the problem with the gap between the frame and grip.
I like my mags like I like my women.... short and tight.

[Mongoose]

Yes, we have the RT body/rail designs done....now we are starting to make AM/MM length Products.

We will have designs available soon, both Rails and Bodies

[Mongoose]

Agreed. I forgot about that one. I am not worried so much about them fitting the stock rail. I am willing to buy a new rail, I just want the shorter design to get rid of the goofy 2 inch gap between the frame and front grip on E length uppers when mech lowers are used.

It makes me wonder to a certain degree if this is the element that has been missing lately from some of the released products. I mean, I would have thought the Magnus frame would have flown off of the shelves and the VER frame would have sold out relatively quickly as well. But it seems like the Magnus frame must not have been as much of a success as they planned since from what I gather another run isn't planned, and the VER frame has only presold like 13 frames so far. Is it because there are no "proper" length platforms to put them on? I mean PTP was able to presell over 100 MM2K9 bodies, and have people willing to wait 3 years for them to get done. Others with E length products don't seem to sell as quickly.

Actually, the M90 sold out so fast that a second run was needed.

And i just about sold out on all my RT rail and bodies. When it comes to Automags you cannot make a huge run because your selling to a smaller market. And this is why prices are usually higher.

We have some very interesting stuff coming out, and most of it is AM/MM related.

[OPBN]

Actually, the M90 sold out so fast that a second run was needed.

And i just about sold out on all my RT rail and bodies. When it comes to Automags you cannot make a huge run because your selling to a smaller market. And this is why prices are usually higher.

We have some very interesting stuff coming out, and most of it is AM/MM related. I was not aware that the M90 sold so quickly, if so, my bad. I thought Tuna still had them on his site, and there's been one for sale in the BST for awhile now. I check your site every so often, and thought you still had a fair amount of bodies and rails available, considering the quantity you started with. Either way, I'm not judging, just wondering why more of the shorter length aren't offered and wondering if more of some of the aftermarket frames wouldn't sell if there was something better to put them on? Looking forward to seeing what you come out with.

[Mongoose]

I was not aware that the M90 sold so quickly, if so, my bad. I thought Tuna still had them on his site, and there's been one for sale in the BST for awhile now. I check your site every so often, and thought you still had a fair amount of bodies and rails available, considering the quantity you started with. Either way, I'm not judging, just wondering why more of the shorter length aren't offered and wondering if more of some of the aftermarket frames wouldn't sell if there was something better to put them on? Looking forward to seeing what you come out with.

that reminds me...i need to update my website.

[Ando]

Ya...The first batch of Magnus frames sold out in like 20 min. Then came the second batch. I think in all over 80 were made. As for E-frames, besides the V.E.R's, BE commissioned 10 E-90's and he didn't get them all sold till he got the few he had sold, out to their owners. Word of mouth took off from there...

Once the current sold V.E.R.'s get sent out, I'm sure the rest will be gone in no time...

I plan on getting one myself. House projects are killing me ATM tho... :(

[El Camino]

that reminds me...i need to update my website.

Not to change the thread, but, Mongoose, don't let up on the 8" inserts!! I'm really looking forward to getting a set.

[Dirge]

We have some very interesting stuff coming out, and most of it is AM/MM related.


:clap:

[RogueFactor]

Agreed. I forgot about that one. I am not worried so much about them fitting the stock rail. I am willing to buy a new rail, I just want the shorter design to get rid of the goofy 2 inch gap between the frame and front grip on E length uppers when mech lowers are used.
The Chord v2 is perfect for that.


It makes me wonder to a certain degree if this is the element that has been missing lately from some of the released products. I mean, I would have thought the Magnus frame would have flown off of the shelves and the VER frame would have sold out relatively quickly as well. But it seems like the Magnus frame must not have been as much of a success as they planned since from what I gather another run isn't planned, and the VER frame has only presold like 13 frames so far. Is it because there are no "proper" length platforms to put them on? I mean PTP was able to presell over 100 MM2K9 bodies, and have people willing to wait 3 years for them to get done. Others with E length products don't seem to sell as quickly.

Things arent really what they seem, and it appears you have noticed that things arent jumping off the shelves. Items are made in smaller batches for a reason, and thats the reason.

Some may have you believe things are well with Automags, and I can tell you thats not true. Some of it is smoke and mirrors. But the market doesnt lie, and supply/demand and pricing reflects that. Look at how many dealers used to build for this market, and the batch size compared to today. The volume that is selling nowadays is a small percentage of what it once was. Until the economy turns around, I dont see that trend changing.

Its been interesting to watch the turn of events. Mags used to be the stalwart of the industry, bucking the trends and holding their value. This has changed and many have noticed the trend.

With that said, smaller batches will increase prices as you lose economies of scale. This is largely the reason why I doubt youll be seeing a custom body/rail combo new in the $250 price range anytime soon.

[OPBN]

The Chord v2 is perfect for that. And the last one I have seen come up was 2-3 months ago, and they had it priced at $350 for just the body. I also never particularly liked it that much, especially since there is no matching rail that I am aware of.


Things arent really what they seem, and it appears you have noticed that things arent jumping off the shelves. Items are made in smaller batches for a reason, and thats the reason. Is it what is being made that is keeping them from flying off the shelves? If something different were being offered, would it change this?


Some may have you believe things are well with Automags, and I can tell you thats not true. Some of it is smoke and mirrors. But the market doesnt lie, and supply/demand and pricing reflects that. Look at how many dealers used to build for this market, and the batch size compared to today. The volume that is selling nowadays is a small percentage of what it once was. Until the economy turns around, I dont see that trend changing.

Its been interesting to watch the turn of events. Mags used to be the stalwart of the industry, bucking the trends and holding their value. This has changed and many have noticed the trend. I agree that the economy sucks and in general, paintball is taking a hit. However, it seems like there have been a lot of people coming back based on some of the recent posts and I definitely have seen more mags at the fields that I frequent this past season in particular. Again though, is it because people are bored with what is offered? I'm relatively new to the Mag scene, and I have yet to build all of my dream Mags yet, but is interest waining because it's the same old offerings?


With that said, smaller batches will increase prices as you lose economies of scale. This is largely the reason why I doubt youll be seeing a custom body/rail combo new in the $250 price range anytime soon.
Which sucks. I would imagine PTP didn't exactly make a killing on the MM2K9, especially after all the time and effort that they have spent on it, but putting body/rail combos into the $500 range I think puts it out for a lot of people. However, it must be possible as the Phoenix is being offered for $350 as body/rail and anodized. I think this is fair.

Again, I am not trying to rag on anyone or their products. I realize the market isn't what it has been in the past. I still wonder though how much is economics and how much is people being bored with what is offered?

However, I don't know how much interest there really is in AM/MM length products? It seems like there are a couple of others posting on here that are, but what is the overall consensus? Is there a driving need for these, or am I a minority?

[going_home]

The economy has slowed used and new paintball related items sales way down.
Rogue may have some of the Chord bodies left.
I know he made some Dallara rails and the Wave rail, both were AM/MM length.
Personally I dont see what the big deal is on the length, they are only about an inch different.
And the RT Pro style sear and sear pin are preferred over the AM/MM ones.
Most of the after market RT Pro length rails have a slot where the grip attaches so you technically could slide the grip back to the trigger frame.
Or get a UMF or an EM Ripper frame and the trigger guard is bigger.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/going_home/DSC_0164-1.jpg


;)

[OPBN]

The economy has slowed used and new paintball related items sales way down.
Rogue may have some of the Chord bodies left.
I know he made some Dallara rails and the Wave rail, both were AM/MM length.
Personally I dont see what the big deal is on the length, they are only about an inch different.
And the RT Pro style sear and sear pin are preferred over the AM/MM ones.
Most of the after market RT Pro length rails have a slot where the grip attaches so you technically could slide the grip back to the trigger frame.
Or get a UMF or an EM Ripper frame and the trigger guard is bigger.
;)
I thought Deadly Wind made the Dallara body and rails? If Rogue is offering any parts I have not seen them in the dealiers section. I check PB Legion sometimes and it doesn't look like anything has been updated there in months. Or am I confusing something? If there are other options out there, someone is doing a terrible advertising job. You are confusing my want of a shorter rail with a sear preference. The new RT Pro rails are AM/MM length and still have RTP sears. Like I said, maybe I'm the only one that cares.

[hill160881]

When you can build a EP frame for 250, the V.E.R. seems a bit over priced(But they rip and are very nice, and my hats off to the maker). That is why they are not flying off the shelves. Etek 2 frame with board is $50. Ep mod around $200(done by someone else, only 100 done by yourself), Not to mention i dont like the way the magnetic noids sound, feel, and eat batteries.

So 250 for EP etek frame with all the modes and ability to tune things the etek board allows. Then add eyes for 150 and you have the same price as the V.E.R. and no chopping.

I do agree that we need a shorter AM/MM length because i want to do a build with that length but i was going to have a RPG recon rail cut, welded and machined smooth again. so if someone comes out with one befor that it will be sweet.




Mongoose, will the new rail have the same room in between the body and bottom of the rail? Because i need to put a noid there. :)

[factoid]

What's the actual length difference between the AM/MM and the RT/emag length rails.

Do any of these bodies and rails actually fundamentally alter anything about the marker's total profile? Even on a micromag you've got the same length valve that sticks just as far back as it does on an AM/MM Rail or an RT Rail. There's just less metal underneath it.

I think the front of the body is slightly shorter, and maybe the threads for the barrel sit back slightly farther but I'm not sure they can.

If you put a 14" barrel on a micromag and a 14" barrel on a ULE the measurement from the tip of the barrel to the back of the valve is probably identical, isn't it?

The only real difference is how close the foregrip is to the trigger frame, and on that score I definitely prefer an RT length rail myself because it's less crowded. But other people like their hands closer together and that's just a personal preference thing.

[KillerOfGiants]

Only difference is that the rail is shorter. Nothing else mounts differently. I have seen some ULE 'mags in the BST with Tac-One rails(I believe.) that are AM/MM length. I know, personally, I prefer the RT length because I have somewhat larger hands. I have tried moving my foregrip back to where it'd be on an AM/MM length rail and it's real tight like a Mini which is too small for me. I might pick one up someday for the hell of it.

An issue I have with AM/MM rails is when people use a plain jane ULE body on it and they get that dorky over-bite look to it. I know MiniMags had this look but at least they came that way from AGD and weren't butchered. I believe Luke does some milling to shorten the body and RT rails...?

If someone gets creative, they should get an AM/MM rail with a shortened ULE, get a back- cap for the reg, shorten the back of the rail and use a hyper3 reg or something. Talk about Mini-Mag.

[TwilightG]

When you can build a EP frame for 250, the V.E.R. seems a bit over priced(But they rip and are very nice, and my hats off to the maker). That is why they are not flying off the shelves. Etek 2 frame with board is $50. Ep mod around $200(done by someone else, only 100 done by yourself), Not to mention i dont like the way the magnetic noids sound, feel, and eat batteries.

So 250 for EP etek frame with all the modes and ability to tune things the etek board allows. Then add eyes for 150 and you have the same price as the V.E.R. and no chopping.


Not to split hairs but while you make a really good point, you're not comparing apples to apples.

The Magnus and VER frames are factory-new frames with all internals properly arranged and connected (or in the case of the M-90 frames, all the mounting points for pneumatics are pre-tapped making the pneumatics almost a 100% drop-in)

I could make a pneumag frame for $150 if I bought a used Intelli and spent the time and effort getting everything lined up, drilled, etc.
Or, spend about $300 and get a brand new frame, unblemished, no modifications needed.
It really all depends on what you want.


Back to the main topic at hand... I prefer AM/MM length :D
Aside from my X-Mag, all of my mags have been AM/MM length.

The only big reason I can think that RT/EMag length rails are more prominent is because of the fact that they can be used in both E-Mag and mech configurations. As Mongoose pointed out, we're looking at a really small market.
Sell AM/MM length rails and you've already narrowed your customer base even more.

Maybe not as many mag owners are as picky as you and me ;)

[Fatalis]

I took a Gen 2 RT Pro rail , UMF, RPG Piraih body and a CF foregrip and put them together for a tight fit.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/GotSmilodon/Family-1.jpg

[Mongoose]

Sorry but i can't agree that mags are dying and there are no more companies making parts :cry: and so on...

We are more then happier with the amount of parts we have sold this past year.
We do need to update our website with the actual number of parts that remain.
Currently we are sold out of many parts. "EP body/rail, Snatch grips, EPG, Syclone body, Helium body, Noxious body, Actually the only things we have left at the moment are some rails and Carbon Fiber grips :D

From the beginning we purposely kept our build runs small and numbered. We understand that the Automag is a niche market, and it has been for many years. We are fine with that because we are true fans of the Automag.

Also we are making our products from scratch to AGD standards. Everything is made here in the USA, i can see a body/rail being sold for $250 if all your doing is taking stock parts cutting them up a bit, fresh anno and done......But we are on a different scale, Our finished products speak for themselves. And when did a "Custom" Body/rail ever cost $250?

In the End we will be releasing many new and CUSTOM mag parts for everyone to enjoy.
Thanks AO :cheers:

[OPBN]

I took a Gen 2 RT Pro rail , UMF, RPG Piraih body and a CF foregrip and put them together for a tight fit.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/GotSmilodon/Family-1.jpg Oddly enough, I was going to put yours up as a nice example of AM/MM length marker. Probably one of my favorites.

Sounds like there is a market out there for something other than a shortened ULE, which coincidentally, I already have.

<a href="http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/oldpbnoob/?action=view&current=Familypictars005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn308/oldpbnoob/Familypictars005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> Did it myself. It's actually on another marker now and now I have a miniTac body and angled ASA on this one.

[OPBN]

Also we are making our products from scratch to AGD standards. Everything is made here in the USA, i can see a body/rail being sold for $250 if all your doing is taking stock parts cutting them up a bit, fresh anno and done......But we are on a different scale, Our finished products speak for themselves. And when did a "Custom" Body/rail ever cost $250?

I was saying $250-350, and as mentioned the Phoenix bodies were priced at this higher end. While it is a unibody, the MM2K9 was/is $220.00, $245 with a vert ASA adapter. This might not be a fair comparison as they have the milling capabilities in house, as does XT.

You seem to be taking this personally which it isnt intended to be. Glad to see something new coming out. Unfortunately, it sounds like it may be a bit pricier than I was hoping for. I might just have to jump on that Dallara.

[Fatalis]

Thanks for the compliments. :dance:

[Mongoose]

I was saying $250-350, and as mentioned the Phoenix bodies were priced at this higher end. While it is a unibody, the MM2K9 was/is $220.00, $245 with a vert ASA adapter. This might not be a fair comparison as they have the milling capabilities in house, as does XT.

You seem to be taking this personally which it isnt intended to be. Glad to see something new coming out. Unfortunately, it sounds like it may be a bit pricier than I was hoping for. I might just have to jump on that Dallara.

Not taking it personally, as most of my comments were not directed your way.

[p8ntbal4me]

The problem we find with the making of new products for the AGD community is that there is too large or range in what you/we want.

One side wants a short rail,.. the other wants a full length body.

One side wants EP,.. the other wants E-only

One side wants vertical frame,.. the other wants a 45.

That provides the problem with the new trigger frame having to work with BOTH styles,.. which means,.. you have to cut a corner somewhere.

In a shorter rail,.. it means the trigger guard is smaller. Longer body = longer rail = bigger trigger guards. (compair the Logic UMF to the AGD intelli)

Dont even look at the twist lock assembly.... another thing you have to work around.

For the VER,.. we went shorter. Not my particular choice,... but its the most universal.

The Chord body is nice. Everyone likes a DW item on the mag they shoot or show off.

The problem with the DW bodies is they are grossly over priced and not being produced. You can buy a brand new Venomous Designs body AND rail for the BST price of a DW Chord (which does not have a matching rail)

Why by used when you can buy new? ;)

All up to the buyer,.... they decide what is and what is not best for their needs.

I am just speaking out loud here,... but from my end of the design desk... shorter is alot more difficult to work around.

[p8ntbal4me]

Not to mention i dont like the way the magnetic noids sound, feel, and eat batteries.




Id say you are a potential buyer for the EP frame then ;)

Which will be along in the spring...... :p

[KillerOfGiants]

Id say you are a potential buyer for the EP frame then ;)

Which will be along in the spring...... :p

Probably couldn't get you to shed any light on the 45* VER release, huh? :D

[p8ntbal4me]

Probably couldn't get you to shed any light on the 45* VER release, huh? :D

There wasnt much interest in a 45 version to be honest.

I had designed a 45 style EP frame a few years ago and scrapped it. Just recently (year and a half) I had the design re-worked to something most people would enjoy holding in their hand.

We had a few other items coming along as well,.. so baring a HUGE upset in lost time this winter,... I may be able to get 2 more items with the frame. (Im designing non-paintball items now as well)

---------------------------------
On topic:

I forgot to mention, another issue with the AGD community when developing new parts is the need/demand.

I personally get a lot of PMs asking about making new items. Most common would be an electronic frame. Others include new circuit boards. OCCASIONALLY I get someone asking me how to get a hold of Chris Nearchos :p

When you have a lot of buyers wanting a new product made, and they commit financially, it makes it easier to bring around in a timely manner. It also helps if the R&D is complete prior to bringing the design out to the public (ive done that before,.. its not good)

If a bunch of people want something new,.. and dont commit with the cash flow,.. then there isnt a REAL need for the product to begin with.

I was looking at not doing the pre-order for the VER before another person became involved,... it can get expensive real quick. Look at the price of controller boards, small parts, machine time, testing, electronic parts (if your doing that kind of thing), proto-typing, etc. It adds up very quick.

I could make a new EP frame RIGHT NOW and have it out in a few months time,... but where is the market for that to sell out in a week? Not there. Items wont "fly off the shelf" as someone put it. Its not the right time financially.

But for someone like myself, whom has a few month off to design things and look to push new product in the spring,... its not the amount you could push off the shelf that drives me,... its the simple thought of keeping the shelves stocked with something someone will want eventually. Thats what a AO member does here in the AGD community,... what we have to, to keep things going.

That statement is truth in numbers on the VER thread. Over half of the frames are sold. That was the goal. The other ones will sit and wait for someone to want one. Not typical business for sales,... but acceptable for the customer base and my own goals. I just want to design parts,... that is enough for me.

[BigEvil]

That statement is truth in numbers on the VER thread. Over half of the frames are sold. That was the goal. The other ones will sit and wait for someone to want one. Not typical business for sales,... but acceptable for the customer base and my own goals. I just want to design parts,... that is enough for me.

That's because you aren't a greedy **** and you are enjoying seeing your ideas come to reality. :hail:

[cougar20th]

The reason for rt/emag length being common is simply demand. There is more demand for that length. Most demand for am/mm comes from pumpmag users currently. Its just harder to sell something that has less demand.

I think the reason for current AGD dealers to do smaller runs is simple. AO is known to in the past request parts, say they will buy said parts & only once they were made on a large scale does the dealer find out he cant sell many & is stuck with the remaining for along time..Just ask Tom about the ygrips to understand.

So AO has proven repeatedly that short runs although more expensive to make & sell are far safer for the small dealer. This is due to less risk financial if something doesn't sell. Most dealers now aren't doing this full time & its more about the love of automags then anything. Its about that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you see someone using a product you designed or made. Even better is when they have no clue who you are & they spout off the reasons the product is so great.

If memory serves me the 1st batch of M-90 frames sold in about a hour. The second batch sold out. As ando said something like 80 frames. B.E.'s 10 E-90's all sold. Jai has sold a good amount of VER frames. Mongoose has a ton sold as listed. Xmt is still selling bodies when demand & time arrive. Cerberous sold I don't know how many airwalks & pump kits. Hopefully we will see more cool stuff from him.

Yes you can count how many dealers have left AGD products. But you can also count how many new dealers are out there making new products. Simply a changing of the guards.

What market in paintball hasnt taken a hit of some degree in this economy. SP did, AGD did, AKA did...New or used market Everything did no market wasn't immune.

[OPBN]

The reason for rt/emag length being common is simply demand. There is more demand for that length. Most demand for am/mm comes from pumpmag users currently. .
Interesting statement. Has there been an official poll taken to determine more demand? If you only offer rye bread, can you them make the statement that there is more demand for rye bread than white? As mentioned, I would guess it is more lkely that the reason most are made in the longer length is to insure they can be used with E-lowers, thus broadening the user base. Seems like once people get to the point of spending that much money, they want to be able to have electro capabilites. So yes there is more demand, but because it is covering a broader base, not because no one wants shorter length. As for the pump statement. Of the several mags I own, all but the E-mag are AM/MM length, and not one of them is a pump. :rolleyes: This is to be rectified shortly when XM15 finishes his pump kits.

[BigEvil]

Be carefull with "Internet polls". Ask TK about that ;)

[OPBN]

Be carefull with "Internet polls". Ask TK about that ;)
Point taken.

[hill160881]

Mongoose, will the new rail have the same room in between the body and bottom of the rail? Because i need to put a noid there. :)
;)

[Mongoose]

;)

Yes

[p8ntbal4me]

Interesting statement. Has there been an official poll taken to determine more demand? If you only offer rye bread, can you them make the statement that there is more demand for rye bread than white?


I did a poll for EP frames,... and the 45 frame won out on 2 different forums.

So the 45 frame will be the only Rye bread offered ;)

I think what hes saying (and what I was saying) was that the guys that are small time and doing small runs,.. having to not make something EVERYONE wants (or the majority)will be very costly.

So you are correct,.. there is only one choice, But the choice was made by majority interest to avoid not selling the product off and cover the financial start up cost.

To give you a better idea,... the VER frames put my personal expenses $7,000 in the hole BEFORE I ever designed the frame to finished product. :tard:

I know the comment was made expressing the difference between a DIY E-setup and the VER frame. The person doing the DIY project doesnt have any R&D overhead, software expenses to feed the machinist a drawing, the proto-type cost (times 3 for the VER :( ) the list goes on,.... it takes cost to deliver a finished product.

One is production,.. the the other is not. You cant really compare the two. A DIY project makes the items used personal to that person,.. it was their idea,.. plan,.. and effort to get to the end result. Production items deliver the finish to the end user complete. They pay someone to do all the work for them. If the DIY'er charged himself an hourly rate for the design, setup, labor to assemble, and test the project,.... I bet the cost/price would be a lot closer to the same number.

[OPBN]

I did a poll for EP frames,... and the 45 frame won out on 2 different forums.

So the 45 frame will be the only Rye bread offered ;)

I think what hes saying (and what I was saying) was that the guys that are small time and doing small runs,.. having to not make something EVERYONE wants (or the majority)will be very costly.

So you are correct,.. there is only one choice, But the choice was made by majority interest to avoid not selling the product off and cover the financial start up cost.

. I really wasn't adressing frames, honestly, I am pretty happy with the choices that seem to be out there. It just seems that the E-length has somewhat become the standard, and I was curious if any actual polling or discussion was done in regards to this, or was it assumed that this was the preferred length? I was just wondering if the statement that the longer length was in more demand factual or assumptive? In the end I guess it really isn't a huge deal. Not many seem to be stepping up and adding that they prefer the shorter length, so maybe we are in fact a minority.

[p8ntbal4me]

so maybe we are in fact a minority.

I kinda feel this way about the guys like Going_Home whom love the reverse valves....

From where I sit,.. making a body to look the same on both sides (Im a Type A personality)
is a good thing. Making something functional for a niche of less than 95% of AGD owners out there is not. Im looking at that purely from a cost stand point.

Let me ask you this,.. a new frame,... to get around the whole "too short for big hands" problem in the trigger guard,... I thought maybe a integrated ASA like Pneumagger designed would solve the issue.

Would you buy such a frame if your ability to use a stock or custom ASA that mounts to the rail was taken away from you?

I can see you get the point of the problem... so what about the solution? What are YOU thinking is needed to please everyone else not on the full length side?

[p8ntbal4me]

I really wasn't adressing frames, honestly, I am pretty happy with the choices that seem to be out there. It just seems that the E-length has somewhat become the standard, and I was curious if any actual polling or discussion was done in regards to this, or was it assumed that this was the preferred length?

From a design stand point... full length = less issues.

Shorter rails and bodies means more design cost just due to the loss of space to work with. More metal is more costly machine time for sure,.. but you almost eliminate the cost there when you can do more with a larger platform.

The Logic EM Ripper frame is a good example. Nice frame,.. but cant fit an AM rail with a grip.
Coolhand had to take out the use of a twist lock barrel system and the large trigger guard meant that the AM rail with fore grip was a no go.

Probably no poll that I can remember seeing to ask such a simple question.

Its a logical one though,...

[OPBN]

Let me ask you this,.. a new frame,... to get around the whole "too short for big hands" problem in the trigger guard,... I thought maybe a integrated ASA like Pneumagger designed would solve the issue.

Would you buy such a frame if your ability to use a stock or custom ASA that mounts to the rail was taken away from you?

I would be totally cool with that. I think though, some sort of system where the ASA slides onto the frame similiar to how a E-mag battery slips onto the E-frame would be neat as well. While I actually like the idea of an integrated ASA, I can also see an issue though for individuals that prefer an angled ASA, and they would want the ability to have one. But I like the idea of an integrated ASA. I think it would look very clean.

[p8ntbal4me]

I would be totally cool with that. I think though, some sort of system where the ASA slides onto the frame similiar to how a E-mag battery slips onto the E-frame would be neat as well. While I actually like the idea of an integrated ASA, I can also see an issue though for individuals that prefer an angled ASA, and they would want the ability to have one. But I like the idea of an integrated ASA. I think it would look very clean.


The only other work around I could see at this point,.. would be to have the fore grip angle out then drop vertical like the SP NXT Shocker LPR does.

That would be difficult to match every rail front,... but it would clear the trigger guard altogether.

[p8ntbal4me]

I like the idea of an integrated ASA. I think it would look very clean.

I will have to talk to Pneumagger,.. see if he would let me use the design.

[TwilightG]

I will have to talk to Pneumagger,.. see if he would let me use the design.
As much as I love the integrated asa idea, there was still a lack of consensus when pneumagger tried to take a poll of which style to use. (vert, angled forward, angled backward)

It's too bad because it really was a great idea and could make the mag's lines look a lot smoother.
Rail, frame, asa all one piece.. throw a tube-style body on top and you have something simple but yet refined without looking like a bunch of parts bolted together.

Hopefully you can get something going with it :cheers:

[OPBN]

The only other work around I could see at this point,.. would be to have the fore grip angle out then drop vertical like the SP NXT Shocker LPR does.

That would be difficult to match every rail front,... but it would clear the trigger guard altogether.
It would allow for an optional angled asa though, or are you saing making it one solid grip? Would love to see some sketches of the idea.

[TwilightG]

Here's pnuemagger's threads on this concept:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236717
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237890

[OPBN]

Here's pnuemagger's threads on this concept:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236717
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237890
Pneumaggers was for an integrated rail though as well. I am measuring from the front of an intelliframe to the front of both an AM/MM rail and current RTP short rail and coming up with 1.25inches. Maybe I don't understand the geometry of frames, but how much bigger does it have to be? Even the chimera, I am measuring is about the same.

[SockMonkey]

Thats awesome. I REALLY like the idea of the all in one. I would either want a vert or some angle out, not negative towards the trigger.

If something like that was available I would do what ever I had to to get one..

[Mongoose]

Thats awesome. I REALLY like the idea of the all in one. I would either want a vert or some angle out, not negative towards the trigger.

If something like that was available I would do what ever I had to to get one..

Well your gonna like what we have in the works :ninja: :D

[SockMonkey]

Well your gonna like what we have in the works :ninja: :D
great, now im all anxious and excited.. :D

But yeah, I totally agree with Twilight. Yeah it makes it a little less "customizable" because you cant use this rail, and that frame, with this asa or foregrip, etc... But I think it would be awesome..

[CatoRockwell]

Wow I like that!

Keep us updated Mongoose. I've always liked your stuff, just haven't had the money to do another mag project just yet.

[KillerOfGiants]

Going vertical on the integrated ASA would cover all your bases. Much like the full length RT rails. More people like RT length than AM/MM and more people would be happier with vertical ASA than angled. Although I'm in the search for a couple 15* vert ASA's but I would lean them towards the trigger, not away, much like the Karnivor. If they did do angled and vertical integrated ASA's maybe they could do a preorder but have say, 10 15* away's/10 15* toward's & 20 verticals? Just a thought.

[SockMonkey]

Well your gonna like what we have in the works :ninja: :D
Hey, any more info? maybe a super guesstimate on when its going to be unveiled to the public or when it may be actually available?

NEED INFO!! :bounce: :hail: :bounce: :hail: :bounce: :hail:

[mpsd]

I took a Gen 2 RT Pro rail , UMF, RPG Piraih body and a CF foregrip and put them together for a tight fit.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/GotSmilodon/Family-1.jpg

I did that too, only with a Dallara kit:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/DSC00083.jpg
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/DSC00093.jpg
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/DSC00087.jpg
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/DSC00084.jpg