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ArmyEngineer

10-30-2010, 02:42 PM

This post is to alert the rest of you that, in my experience, UThomas is not a reliable seller. That might seem very direct statement, and it is; however, it is also a fact. This is relayed in chronological order. If I seem harsh, please read our conversations in the next post. Thomas pulled a fast one and then tried to blow me off.

A caveat: Before anyone says, "Well yeah, but that is still a good price." I was not looking for an X-mag in fair or good condition. I was looking for an X-mag in excellent condition. That is what I paid for. The marker I received is not as advertised. That is a violation of the rules of our trading community and a violation of trust.

I purchased the gloss black X-mag that Thomas listed for sale here. http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253216

Relevant PMs before the sale was made:

September 9th:

I'm interested. Is there a sear pin dimple on the passenger side? Any scratches in the ano? It's hard to tell from the pics. Level 10 spacers included?

Thanks,
Charlie

No sear pin dimple that I can see. Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall. I can def throw in some level 10 spacers - not a problem.

Thomas
Then on the 21st:

Hey man,
Let me know if you would do $750 shipped to 35802. I would use the paypal gift option to avoid fees.

Thanks,
Charlie

$760 and gift option and we're good to go. It is in SWEET condition - this would have gone for $1100 before A-Tach dumped his collection. Doh!

My paypal is tmitchell@....

Thomas
On the 24th, I asked for better pictures without the overpowering glare and at full resolution:

Yeah, me too. The thing is, prices have continued dropping. If you could take a few more pics for me in natural lighting w/o the glare and in a higher res, I would appreciate it. Put that XSi to good use! ;)

Is the passenger side just dirty around the trigger, or is the ano faded?

Thanks again,
Charlie

Those pics were actually in a light box - in Texas it is too bright and gets a bunch of glare. Anyway - I'll take some more pics but don't expect a pro photog :) It is gloss black - no pooling or fading in the anno - looks almost new (as you can see by how little wear on the valve there is).

Thomas

These are the only additional pictures I received. http://yfrog.com/64img0660vqjx

I picked the marker up from the post office on the 12th of this month. The box was in good condition and the contents were all wrapped in bubble wrap. Thomas was kind enough to throw in that old Halo for free. (Then he uses that inclusion to rationalize his inaccurate description.) Unfortunately, the marker was NOT in the condition promised.

The left side has a number of scratches, especially toward the front and on the centerfeed breech. Most do not show bare metal, however, the forward half of the driver's side body is peppered with numerous indentations and gashes as is the upper half of the battery housing. The damage is very visible. The dings appear to have been made by some sort of impact. Or perhaps the marker was reanodized without any surface preparation. Regardless of the cause, I asked Thomas to offer a return for full refund. He refused and blew me off. I will post our PMs in the next post.

Here are a few pictures that are very representative of the damage.I broke the marker down and cleaned it thoroughly before taking these. It was full of paint, and unfortunately the sear lock still sticks (not mentioned in his sale post), but that's not what I am mad about. Notice the microfiber cloth, no dust and no fingerprints. These were taken outdoors in the shade.

Please click the images below and view them in full resolution:
<a href="http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9100/img1573u.jpg"><img src="http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9100/img1573u.jpg" width="600" height="300"></img></a>

<a href="http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7589/img1596pg.jpg"><img src="http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7589/img1596pg.jpg" width="600" height="300"></img></a>

Here is the whole album of 36 shots in full resolution: http://yfrog.com/42img1614cjx

Before I took these, I sent Thomas two other series of photos. These were taken indoors under a floor lamp. No flash. I did wipe the marker down before these as well.

http://yfrog.com/ekimg1529jx
http://yfrog.com/8bimg1478hjx

This photo in particular does a good job or showing the size and depth of the indentations. Again, please click and view it in full screen:

<a href="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1864/img1520copy.jpg"><img src="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1864/img1520copy.jpg" width="600" height="300"></img></a>

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I pay for something that is repeatedly described as "excellent," "fantastic," and "looks almost new." That is exactly what I expect. Whether or not this is still a good deal really is of no consequence. Sending an item in a condition other than described is dishonest. Categorical imperative, anyone? If the marker's flaws had been made known and if Thomas had described the marker accurately, I would still have $770 in my bank account and he would still be trying to sell this damaged marker.

If that isn't enough, please see my conversation with Thomas when I complained and asked for a return. His responses were bureaucratic, patronizing, and arrogant.

ArmyEngineer

10-30-2010, 02:43 PM

A little background info first. I contacted another user here with photos of the damage. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't over reacting. Word spread and Thomas thought I had tried to go above him with my concerns. My intention was to get a second opinion, not to gang up on Thomas. I have exhausted diplomacy, so I am now bringing this all to the community's attention. I would much rather have resolved this amicably, but that does not seem possible. If this stirs up drama, so be it. Hopefully it will keep Thomas from burning you in the future.

I take particular exception to his statements in red.

Hey man-

What is this I'm hearing through Beemer that you are having issues with the xmag condition? Besides the fact that you didn't come to me directly, what exactly are you taking issue with? Unless the shipping box was damaged, the gun will be *exactly* as described and outlined in the many many high resolution photos I took under various lighting conditions and sent you (which is: not New in Box, but excellent with zero to very minimal scratches and scuffs). Also - hope you enjoyed the halo loader I threw in for free.

Thomas

Hey Thomas,
I am sorry you heard about my concerns through another avenue. I did not mean for this discussion to happen that way. I contacted a well respected member about this last night to be sure I was not just being overly picky about the marker's condition. I wasn't trying to arrive at this discussion indirectly. It looks like word spread to beemer and back to you without my knowing. I would have preferred to break this to you directly without external involvement. For that I do apologize. I know it is much better to keep this private, and I did not intend to involve anyone else. I am very sorry for that.

I picked the marker up on my lunch break yesterday from the post office, and everything was well packaged. And I was surprised to see that you had included the Halo. That was very generous and appreciated! However, the first thing I noticed when I unpacked the marker was the damage on the driver side. There are numerous dings or indentations in the anodizing on the forward half of the body, the upper third of the battery pack, and on the centerfeed breech. There are also some scratches there that were not visible in the three higher resolution photos that you sent.

I was very surprised to see all of this after specifically asking if there were any flaws in the marker's ano. I understand that the marker is not brand new. I doubt there are any brand new x-mags out there. I do not wish to argue semantics, but the easiest definition of condition that come to mind is from Kelly Blue Book. They define the following:

Excellent
Looks new, is in excellent mechanical condition and needs no reconditioning.

Good
Free of any major defects.
Clean title history, the paints, body, and interior have only minor (if any) blemishes, and there are no major mechanical problems.

Fair
Some mechanical or cosmetic defects and needs servicing but is still in reasonable running condition.

This x-mag would fall on the fair side of good. Not excellent and not fantastic.

If you would like photos, I can provide them. The ones I sent out last night were rubbed down with a microfiber cloth. I cleaned the marker up last night to insure that there is no dried paint or grime to interfere with my eyes. And it does look a little better, but you can't wash away indentations in metal. I will take some more photos and send both albums.

I think I would just like to return this marker for a full refund.

Please get back to me when you have a chance. I would like to resolve this amicably, and I will be sure to explain that to beemer and the other individual involved.

Thank you,
Charlie

I'm actually speechless about this. This marker is in excellent condition. I have bought and sold dozens of makers in over 19 years of playing (almost 10 years on this forum) - and I have very very rarely seen a used marker in this good of condition. I have owned 4-5 x-mags. None have been in this good of condition - including the bone daddy. So that to me is excellent condition.

The anno on this marker is in fantastic shape. You asked if there is "no pooling or fading in the anno" - specifically around the trigger. There is not. The pictures in normal lighting condition I sent to beemer (and you) bear that out. If you want to tell me there numerous are pits and scratches that you wouldn't find in the pictures I'm just going to flat out disagree. I was more than accommodating providing very high res pictures in numerous lightning conditions for you, threw in extras, and shipped it exactly to your specifications while giving you a tremendous price. Honestly, if you do not like the condition of this marker - I'd recommend you only buy new or markers with dust finishes that were never played with. I was as candid as I can be on the markers condition and bent over backwards to show the condition to backup my overall claim of the marker being in excellent condition (which is not limited to cosmetics and includes mechanical features like ACE working, new battery, etc).

I will not be offering you a full refund.

I will be happy to provide you the contact info of the other buyer though - or my sale pictures for you to resell it. You can be happy knowing you got the nicest x-mag for the cheapest price I have seen on these forums in around 5 years so flipping it should not be a problem.

Good luck.

Thomas

Thomas, I am not making this up. Here are some fresh pictures. There are pits in the anodizing. This is a very good example. http://img218.imageshack.us/f/img1520b.jpg/

Yes it is hard to capture with a camera, but this is not something easily missed by the eye. I asked about the possibility of fading on the passenger side near the trigger. The damage is on the driver side. I had no idea it was here, because your pictures didn't show it. I have all of our PMs. Below is a direct quote from the september 9 convo.

You sent me three full resolution photos, two of them were of the side that is in very good condition. Also, the damaged breech was laid to the side and at an angle that doesn't show any damage. I am not accusing you of doing that intentionally, its just that this was a complete surprise to me.

Here are some fresh pictures. One is of the passenger side that doesn't have these dings.

http://img524.imageshack.us/g/img1529.jpg/

No sear pin dimple that I can see. Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall. I can def throw in some level 10 spacers - not a problem.

Thomas

Quote:Originally Posted by ArmyEngineer
I'm interested. Is there a sear pin dimple on the passenger side? Any scratches in the ano? It's hard to tell from the pics. Level 10 spacers included?

Thanks,
Charlie

Charlie - I don't know what more to tell you. I stand by my description of the marker (there are no scratches that a reasonable person would identify by eye) and maintain that you got a tremendous deal. I provided you all the pictures you requested even going to far as to retake them with a DSLR in the lighting conditions you requested. If I missed a shot, or did not get enough detail for you - that is not an issue I can entertain at this point. You were the only prospective buyer I did that for - and I would say that I have only met 2 other buyers who had similar requests over the years.

If you are having buyers remorse because slight anno imperfections showing up in extreme close up pics with the flash on I would recommend you flip the marker and chalk it up as lesson learned. Going forward, if I were you I would just know that you are extremely and highly unusually particular with wording (I am not kelly blue book so I'd outline your rating scale for people) and as such you should put the due diligence on yourself to get ALL the pictures needed to make sure you get what you want and expect.

As I mentioned - happy to put you in contact with next buyer in line (overseas) that I put on hold for you to have the opportunity to purchase this marker at such a good price.

Good luck.

Thomas
I was out of town on business for a week, but I sent this response to Thomas on the 21st. It was apparent that I was not a "reasonable person" and that Thomas would not take responsibility and correct his mistakes.

Thomas,
Sorry for not responding sooner. I have been away on duty for the past week.

The description you gave was not accurate. I do not know why it was inaccurate, and I don't care why. The marker I received is not as described. You should accept a return for that reason alone.

A tremendous deal? That sounds like rationalization to me. I did not pay for a good marker, I paid for an excellent marker, which I did not receive. It is not worth $770 to me. It might be worth that to someone else, but you didn't sell it to someone else.

You sent me three additional pictures. None of them show the damage that you also neglected to tell me about. You told me this marker was in excellent condition. By no means is this marker in excellent condition. I was the only one you took more pictures for? Maybe that is because no one else was interested enough to ask. Thomas, the pictures weren't even useful. I'm sorry it was so much trouble for you to snap a few extra photos. If you look at those imageshack albums, I have taken more, and they are all more accurate representations of the marker's condition.

I don't have buyer's remorse. I have a marker here that is not what you advertised. Have you heard of mail fraud? This definitely fits the definition of misrepresentation.

None of the photos I took used a flash, FYI. The imperfections are not slight, they are very noticeable under normal lighting conditions. You should have taken representative photos yourself.

Chalk this up as a lesson learned? My bank account holds money, not lessons. It should not be my responsibility to "flip" this marker. I shouldn't even have to be writing this PM right now. You misrepresented this marker, from what I can gather, willingly. You should refund my money and resell it yourself. (I would suggest with an accurate description and the photos I took, since you obviously don't know how to use your own camera.)

Most people know the difference between excellent/fantastic and good. If you don't know the meaning of a word, don't use it. I expected to receive what you promised. That did not happen. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ACCURATELY DESCRIBE YOUR ITEM. To try to pass your screw-up off on me is dishonest and immature.

This is not a good price. the marker is damaged, and therefore, NOT WHAT I PAID FOR. FIX THIS.
Either let me return the maker or pay for a re ano of the body and battery pack. (It would be cheaper to eat the shipping costs, Thomas.)

Sincerely,
Charlie
Thomas's next response is what really got to me.

I understand you are upset - you have communicated that clearly. We do not need to continue the back and forth. I will not be offering you a refund and consider this matter closed.

Thomas

"I consider the matter closed." Really? That is how you respond to a dissatisfied customer? I do not consider this matter closed, Thomas. What is wrong with this guy? I tried to be calm, polite, and reasonable throughout our disagreement. What a patronizing thing to say after you were the one that screwed up!

Mindflux

10-30-2010, 02:49 PM

Funny you mention him. I asked about this mag and he said you'd probably offload it for 800 if I asked.

Sheesh.

kwik175

10-30-2010, 02:54 PM

ArmyEngineer

10-30-2010, 03:09 PM

I know the frustration involved with not getting what you thought would be the perfect marker. The only problem is that is is used and not sold as new. If you continue to say how bad the condition is you may never have a chance to sell it and get back what you spent. It sucks but the truth is sell it if your not happy.

Reselling is certainly an option. However, I am not afraid to describe the marker's condition accurately, even if it reduces the likelihood of a sale. The members here deserve accurate descriptions in the BST section. Anything less is a disservice to the buyer and a betrayal of trust.

The other option is to spend the money and have it refurbished. That is not something I anticipated having to do.

I know this is already probably a post of record length, but please read through it in order to better understand where I am coming from. I never expected a perfect marker. I expected a marker in the condition that was promised. It is not that I am picky about my markers (although I am) this is about honest and accurate descriptions of merchandise.

I am off to a Halloween party. Going back through everything just raises my blood pressure. I should probably go eat some oatmeal. Mods, please do with this as you please. I know this is not he kind of post that the forum likes to see. Still, I believe that people should know how this went down. Perhaps it will raise some awareness of business ethics.

I hope you guys don't think I am just a crybaby or a whiner. I am prepared to suck it up, but I want some good to come from it as well. I hope this serves as a reminder of how BST should not be conducted here. You will NEVER see this kind of a sale from me.

:cheers:

insixdays777

10-30-2010, 03:35 PM

I would be pissed if a marker I bought showed up with those marks and was sold via the description noted above.

That's not how I like to see deals go down on AO. Sorry man. Good Luck.

SummaryJudgement

10-30-2010, 03:38 PM

Newt

10-30-2010, 03:53 PM

Any chance of a Paypal dispute, or does the gift option not allow that?

mostpeople

10-30-2010, 04:13 PM

OPBN

10-30-2010, 04:31 PM

What's odd is with dents that deep, no metal is showing. Almost looks like it may have been reanoed once already and it is either pitted or the scratches/dents were too deep to polish out.

going_home

10-30-2010, 04:42 PM

You bought a marker that was used, what did you expect? Factory anno? he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

Bod on both of you to be honest, ridiculous expectations coupled with poor selling policy. If I sold a BNIB xmag that was mint and never opened, and the customer wasn't happy I would issue a refund with the stipulation that he pay return shipping. I do think Thomas should have refunded you.

But you need to be realistic too, its a used marker, and you got a ridiculous deal. And no matter what it is in good condition, and taking pictures that literally highlight any flaws in the anno will not help the case.

.02c

Gotta agree with that.
Both of you .... Thomas for not giving a better description and clearer pics,
and you for being over the top with your pickyness. :nono:

Heres a suggestion, sell the marker for what you paid plus shipping.
And then buy one of the $3500.00 pristeen Xmags that are floating around.
Or just forget about it and play with it and have some fun.
Those guys with the $3500.00 ones are skeerd to play with them for fear of scratching them.

Yes I am saying you got a nice deal on the marker.
Now go play with it !

:clap:

mostpeople

10-30-2010, 05:05 PM

true, i do not see any of the underlying metal.. looks like a re-anno. And lets be honest when you arent blatantly highlighting the blemishes, it looks pretty good.

ArmyEngineer

10-30-2010, 06:16 PM

Hey guys,
Thank you for the responses. I am sure Thomas will probably say something to that effect as well. The reality is that those photos that are tagged in the thread are very representative of the marker's condition.

I took a whole lot of photos, and the ones included in the thread are very accurate. I am not "blatantly highlighting" the damage. I am showing it, which is a courtesy a seller should extend to his potential customers. That is what the marker looks like in person. These are deep dings, not surface scratches. Sure I can take a photo of the marker that doesn't show the damage. Between reflections, glare, the camera's white balance, and the one dimensionality/single angle of a photo, it can be difficult to take good photos (Making the marker look better or worse.) That is what Thomas did whether intentionally or not. But the very visible damage is still there and his words led me to believe it was not there.

mostpeople, I suspect you would be disappointed if you had purchased the marker expecting it to be as described. Did you know that it had this damage from Thomas's listing or PMs? I did not. That is my problem.

I already had one X-mag with damaged ano. I did not want another in worse shape.

If you are going to list something for sale. BE HONEST and thorough. It's that simple. And yes, a good seller who had made a mistake would have agreed to a return. That is something I can certainly appreciate.

Again, if anyone will have this marker for what I paid+shipping/paypal, please send me a PM. I would gladly settle for that. The thing that worries me is that the marker was listed at $775 here and on PBL for 10 days before it sold. Apparently the only other solid offer on it came from overseas.

Smoothice

10-30-2010, 06:58 PM

Well besides adding uthomas to my no buy from list I will also be adding mostpeople and going_home.

Thanks for bringing this to light.

Edit:

After looking at those pics on my desktop it makes me sick.

Anyone who thinks this is O.K I really hope you don't do any selling on AO. Take your stuff to "greener pastures"...

maniacmechanic

10-30-2010, 07:11 PM

The biggest problem here is it was paid for with PP Gift , you will never get that money back , it was a Gift you wern't buying something
I agree with , ArmyEngineer , SummaryJudgement , insixdays777
I disagree with ,

mostpeople ,
seller stated ;
" looks almost new " , after the hailstorm ??
It is in SWEET condition , ? sugary :rolleyes:
Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall ; no description of the left side condition
I have very very rarely seen a used marker in this good of condition. I have owned 4-5 x-mags. None have been in this good of condition
well I've owned 3 X's still own 2 , the silver one I sold was in better condition than this one
most , if you would have recieved an Excall described as almost new , would this be acceptable to you ??

GH, you & me both have bought & sold a lot around here , If me or you had bought this one I think both of us would have been dissappointed

mostpeople

10-30-2010, 07:53 PM

maniacmechanic

10-30-2010, 07:56 PM

Tunaman

10-30-2010, 08:02 PM

Not taking any sides here. The same thing just happened to me on a Tunavalve I bought back. There was no mention of the circular gouge around the inlet fitting from someone using a pipe wrench on it. Its ruined. I won't mention who it was but he will never get another thing from me as he wont take it back for a refund. If you dont offer a refund then STATE it in your ad. If you are unhappy with the condition not as described you should be able to get a refund. I will refund anyone who is not happy.

Smoothice

10-30-2010, 08:05 PM

dents and scatches under the anno aren't from play IMO

amen

going_home

10-30-2010, 08:22 PM

I will refund anyone who is not happy.

The way it should be with us all.
I'm disappointed in Thomas being a well know mod of another forum refusing to do a refund.

:wow:

Drix

10-30-2010, 08:47 PM

Unfortunatly with that PP Gift it's a live and learn. I'm with you- I belive that he intentionally misled you in his descriptions. I'm not sure about anyone else but when I sell my markers I compare them to factory mint and not the general population- If I compared them to general population I'd have the nicest tippmann 98 that walks the planet ('cuz it's not a rental).

On the other side of things I'm not sure whats to be done- In the grand scheme of things and account banning or silencing won't help you get your money back nor would it keep him from selling most likely. Perhaps your best course of recourse is exactally this post.

ArmyEngineer

10-30-2010, 08:54 PM

Here's the thing though, when you look at his photos you can clearly tell there is standard wear and tear from play. There are knicks all over it. And MM, the x-mag I sold you had standard wear and tear on it, but you didn't make at thread slandering me on the web, why? Because I told you it was used, and you knew what you were buying.

Mostpeople, I hope you don't really believe this is slander. I am not personally attacking Thomas, I feel like I have shown a great deal of restraint and I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But his PMs and refusal to issue a refund were enough to change my opinion. Also, I believe my claims are substantiated. I have taken more than 40 photos and linked all of them here, as well as all of our PMs after I received the marker. Maybe you have some loyalty to Thomas, and that is fine, but please do not insinuate that my statements are libel.

This is not regular wear and tear unless you play on and lay out in a parking lot or gravel pit. I don't know what else I can do to convince you.

Paypal gift was a huge mistake on my part. Unless you know the person you are buying from and you know that they are reliable, this is a very risky move.

I should have known when Thomas told me that in Texas, it's too bright to take pictures outside. :tard:

Those pics were actually in a light box - in Texas it is too bright and gets a bunch of glare. Anyway - I'll take some more pics but don't expect a pro photog It is gloss black - no pooling or fading in the anno - looks almost new (as you can see by how little wear on the valve there is).

Thomas

Drix, I think you are right. And I hope someone can learn from all of this. I certainly have.

teufelhunden

10-30-2010, 09:07 PM

AE - unfortunate, sorry you're stuck in this.

To those of you saying "you bought a used gun, what did you expect?" - you people are unbelievable. The buyer went out of his way to try to ensure that he fully understood the condition of the gun. He was told, with a single exception (bottom of the battery anno wear), that the gun was "excellent" and looks "almost new." That is what the buyer should have received. It doesn't matter if the transaction was $10 for an Enzo right off the line, the item should be delivered in the condition described, without regard to the consideration.

UThomas - you'll read this, I'm sure. You should make this right with the buyer. He probed, quite deeply, about the condition of the marker. That should have indicated to you that he was going to inspect it closely upon receipt, and notice any "oversights" you may have made. Perhaps next time, when someone seems to be asking for extra information, you'll recognize that it's a picky buyer and try to get it right.

hill160881

10-30-2010, 09:43 PM

This recently happened to me with an e-mag. Got a great price but the main body screw was stripped out as well as a screw in the battery case. The marker shook it self apart after 20 rounds, there were other issues as well. The battery died after a hopper, the valve needed a new on off pin(ground down), and a parts kit. The marker had custom annodizing so getting a new body/battery case was expensive with ano. I asked for 200 refund, or a return of the marker for a full refund . Seller was very apologetic and said either option was fine. Good seller and i doubt they actually knew about the damage.

Point is the seller is responsible for answering questions honestly about what they are selling, and disclosing all imperfections that an item has. The question of the condition of the finish was asked. Thomas lied, the proof is in the pics.

I would be :cuss:

C_losjoker

10-30-2010, 11:58 PM

he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

.02c

I would agree with Army on this. to me there is a BIG time difference in a excellent condition and very good condition marker. all of those blemishes that Army showed in his pictures(i only look at the ones on this thread) should have been stated by Uthomas. if any ano defect can be seen by plain eye, which i think most of them can be, he should have made them aware to all buyers. i have gotten a very old marker that was reano, no scratches, not played with since it was anod. but the seller did let me know that when it was reano there was couple little pit marks left behind, nothing that could be done with that. he sent me pictures of that, made full disclosure of everything on the marker, ano and all. i took a look at them, was ok with it and made the deal. guess what the marker came to me has he said and showed in his pictures. i was very happy with it and him for letting me know everything possible. and he did say if i was unhappy with it once i got it, we could do a refund. i would say Uthomas should do a refund for this, specially since he has buyers lined up.

SummaryJudgement

10-31-2010, 12:05 AM

teufelhunden

10-31-2010, 12:16 AM

he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

Meant to touch on this too - you hit the nail on the head. Described as excellent, not delivered as described. End of story.

OPBN

10-31-2010, 12:21 AM

So who is going to step up and start making new/replacement X parts?

Ando

10-31-2010, 08:23 AM

Well damn....Late to the game.

What's more there to say without sounding like a broken record?

You're in no way being picky Army, not in the least.

Hopefully UThomas gave you a reach around cause if he didn't...You should keep better company.

If UThomas doesn’t make this right...I don't see him selling anything on here ever again. He can post it up all he wants but :rolleyes:

And I'm sure this is going to leak out to other forums so your best course of action would be returning his money including shipping before it gets out of hand UThomas.

Dispicable!1!1!1!

UThomas

10-31-2010, 12:21 PM

Hey guys - don't read the Paintball Talk forum here so sorry for the delay. Fair discussion - obviously lots of opinions on this.

Couple thoughts:

1) Army was not expected to take a two word description of the marker (excellent condition - which is obviously relative and does not refer specifically to the anno) as his only data point. His excellent appears to be my "LNIB" - especially as it relates to a 5+ year old marker.

He asked very specific questions about very specific potions of the marker, and they were answered accurately the same way I have answered questions for dozens of satisfied buyers before him. The areas he is highlighting now were not asked about - but were photographed and provided to him.

I didn't see where he points this out, but he was provided multiple high resolution DSLR pictures of the marker (both the original in a diffused natural light box, and then at his request several full gun high res pics outdoors under natural light). These pics are about 4 meg each - and very detailed. I have those pics (link below) unedited as they were provided (except for cropping out my door mat to save space). They are of the full gun. They are high quality. And they speak to the condition - and IMO tell a very different story than his close up glare pics of a small section of the marker. I was highly responsive to his needs in seeing the marker under his conditions and took the pictures of the areas he requested.

outdoors at his request:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x1.JPG
http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x6.JPG

addl pics:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x2.JPG
http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x3.JPG
http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x4.JPG
http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x5.JPG

You can also see the marker in my X-mod youtube video. 4:45 shows the side "in question" of the marker.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Thomas4093?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/deLJxhO7UQI

2) He has highlight a 1.5x1.5 inch section of the marker he feels has some pitting issues (not scratched - not thin anno). We disagree on how they look in natural light - but obviously they show up in those conditions. Compare to my pics in regular lighting at normal distance. When I sell guns I don't put them under a spot light to find flaws I don't see normally. At the start of this complaint I was originally just shown zoomed in pics with a bright light on them that makes the gun look purple:

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg299/scaled.php?tn=0&server=299&filename=img1478h.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

When I saw that - after he had gone to the mods who were making bratty posts (Beemer) on my sale thread - I thought "this guy is a jerk and either has buyers remorse or is not a reasonable buyer."

The rest of the marker does look to be in very very good condition cosmetically. Army would have a hard time posting pics showing otherwise (and hasn't tried obviously). Functionally - the gun is in excellent condition by any reasonable standard. I am the 2nd owner of this xmag - it has new seals, a new battery, working ace, fresh flashed xmod, etc.

3) I would offer him a full refund if I thought anything other than a NIB marker would have satisfied him to begin with or if I failed to provide him opportunities to learn about the markers cosmetic condition. I also was extremely aggravated that I found this issue out through a passive aggressive post by Beemer on the sale thread. That did not show me good faith on his part. As such - I offered to put him in contact with other interested buyers with cash in hand. Which he ignored - which again lead me to believe this is just not a reasonable buyer. You can see other posts he has made where he bought markers and had buyers remorse for not asking questions about the condition.

I also have a high expectation based on the interest I received at the $760 price point that he would be able to flip it quickly and for minimal (if any) loss. But he would have to do the "footwork" - which I think is reasonable and fair.

4) Army is a high maintenance buyer - he paid with e-check (requires 5 days to clear), he demanded higher res pictures, bids below a "firm" price, asks for extras, required special shipping, etc. Nothing "wrong" with that per se (buyers right) - but this is the context I was starting with - and I did accommodate all these requests. I think Army thinks that if he had paid with paypal normally, he just dispute this and then get his money back. My experience as a buyer says that is incorrect and it would have provided him no leverage. If I wanted to screw him over, I would have just not shipped the gun - sold it to the next buyer - and he would have had no recourse. Not only did I not do that - I threw in extras.

5) It is not about the money for me. In fact, I will offer to buy the marker back less 10% "restocking" for the hassle and shipping costs. So $700 Army - and you can keep the halo. As I told Army via PM - a lack of due diligence by an EXTREMELY discriminating buyer is not reason for me to eat shipping and transaction costs let alone the hassle.

6) Lastly - as far as my seller reputation - I have sold at least a dozen high value, collector guns over the past 15+ years of playing, buying, and selling on the net. Everything from aurora and multiple westwood cockers to multiple x-mags. Feel free to review my feedback on PBN since 2003 (I consolidated my feedback there over the years):

(2003-2007) http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=294665

(2007-now) http://www.pbnation.com/feedback.php?u=31613

Not one negative there (though I have had one here - a 14 yo kid who bought a max flo here about 7 years ago turned it up past venting pressure - and then paid a tech $50 to turn it down). I also didn't offer that kid a refund.

Thomas

mostpeople

10-31-2010, 12:22 PM

*edit looks like thomas offered a refund, looks like it is closed.

Smoothice

10-31-2010, 04:21 PM

*edit looks like thomas offered a refund, looks like it is closed.

learn to read.

Ando

10-31-2010, 04:27 PM

1) Army was not expected to take a two word description of the marker (excellent condition - which is obviously relative and does not refer specifically to the anno) as his only data point. His excellent appears to be my "LNIB" - especially as it relates to a 5+ year old marker.

I believe anyone on AO, PBL, PBN, CC, TPB, MCB would expect the "excellent condition" remark to include EVERY part of the marker not just the electronics or the valve or the barrel. When giving a description, everything is lumped in the condition of the marker. I'm sorry UThomas but he asked specifics about the marker that you specifically stated was in all sorts of awesome conditions....

Anno is fantastic...It is in SWEET condition...looks almost new...but excellent with zero to very minimal scratches and scuffs

Your pics look great, at a distance . All your pics were at a distance, nothing up close and at an angle that masked the issues you had stated numerous times was not there. I wouldn't have asked about any specifics if I got the answers you gave, he was just being over cautious because like most of us, i'm 100% sure he's been burned before. What you did was unsat and he had no reason to question your answers because you gave him no reason too.

And it's more than just a 1.5x1.5 area. It goes all the way from the front of the marker to the breach to include the CF breach. I have a 15 yr old pVI Shocker that's in better shape than that X-Mag. :argh:

EDIT:
Lastly, why should he have to pay for your dishonesty? Why does he have to dish out $60 more on top of the $22 that was paid for shipping already not to include the shipping too you?

What sense does that make? You’re not running a place of business. If that was the case you should have posted the marker in the dealer section. He shouldn’t have to pay for ANYTHING. There’s no working it out anymore. That wrought is a closed road.

I guess you shouldn’t have considered the matter closed. :cuss:

mostpeople

10-31-2010, 04:38 PM

learn to read.

sweet burn! -_-

CatoRockwell

10-31-2010, 05:08 PM

All arguments aside about what constitutes Excellent vs Good condition. UThomas should have immediately offered a refund minus shipping due to the miscommunication instead of having to be publicly called out.

That said, UThomas is attempting to make it right, so hopefully he and ArmyEngineer can find a way to resolve this where both parties are satisfied and this thread can hopefully be removed.

UThomas, I personally would define this as in Good Condition, I might even have gone as far to say "Function: Excellent. Cosmetic: Good" I work in an industry where customer service is #1 and we have a saying on my sales floor: Under-Promise, Over-Deliver. If you follow this mantra you will find that you are surrounded by satisfied customers. I do however, know that there are some customers that are impossible to satisfy. I don't think this is the case here though.

AE, never ever send money as a gift, I'd even go so far as to say, pay extra to make sure you don't. Any time someone wants me to send money as a gift I assume they are either going to scam me, or didn't calculate paypal fees into our agreed upon cost. Either way, I don't do it. I personally agree that I don't consider this marker to be in "Excellent condition" but I can see what the others mean by it being a used marker.

Still if I sold a marker, new or used and there was pitting from an anno job, I would let my buyer know.

I really hope the 2 of you can work this out, I think this can be done because you are both agreeing to come to the table. Hopefully you can work this out so that AE is willing to get this thread removed and move on.

One final comment, I read Beemer's post on your sale thread earlier, not knowing any of the underlying issues, and I really thought that was in poor taste. He should of just PMed you instead of publicly messing with you. Which would have pissed me off and probably made me less cooperative with the buyer. Beemer is a mod here, like a manager at any job, he needs to be careful what he says and where he says it as people will look at what he says with more weight.

mostpeople

10-31-2010, 05:14 PM

Beemer is a mod here, like a manager at any job, he needs to be careful what he says and where he says it as people will look at what he says with more weight.

http://pblegion.com/images/smilies/sstorm.gif

zondo

10-31-2010, 05:25 PM

http://pblegion.com/images/smilies/sstorm.gif

Nah...

UThomas

10-31-2010, 05:45 PM

This marker has factory anno - no question.

[edit]The pics were high enough res and detailed enough that you can see my finger print on the exact area he is talking about (http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x1.JPG). These pics are in natural lighting or simulated natural lighting - aka: what the marker looks like.[edit]

Over delivery is something I definitely agree with and can appreciate. This principle is why included a surprise extra halo and level 10 parts kit. Having bought and sold a LOT of markers, I was obviously quite surprised by this situation.

Army now can certainly either sell this very nice marker (which, given the volume of requests I had after I sold it should not be an issue), return it to me at 90% of shipped price ($700; while keeping the "free" halo), or keep and enjoy it.

Thanks-

Thomas

teufelhunden

10-31-2010, 06:21 PM

This marker has factory anno - no question.

Over delivery is something I definitely agree with and can appreciate. This principle is why included a surprise extra halo and level 10 parts kit. Having bought and sold a LOT of markers, I was obviously quite surprised by this situation.

Army now can certainly either sell this very nice marker (which, given the volume of requests I had after I sold it should not be an issue), return it to me at 90% of shipped price ($700; while keeping the "free" halo), or keep and enjoy it.

Thanks-

Thomas

Factory anno or not, the buyer feels that there was undisclosed damage or flaws. That alone should be enough for you.

Sending the buyer crap you don't have any use for doesn't cut it if the principal item in the transaction is not as described. Different situation totally, but you aren't going to be happy with me if I nail your girl but while in the act, I give you Cowboys/Texans/Rangers/Mavericks/UT tickets.

UThomas

10-31-2010, 06:28 PM

Cowboys/Texans/Rangers/Mavericks/UT tickets

LOL! You can drop the Cowboys and UT out of the equation this season!

Not going to back and forth with everybody on this - personally I feel like you guys seeing this marker in person would add a lot of clarity and context to the discussion - but as is everybody is welcome to form their opinion even if that doesn't align with my point of view.

Cheers-

Thomas

teufelhunden

10-31-2010, 06:31 PM

Cowboys/Texans/Rangers/Mavericks/UT tickets

LOL! You can drop the Cowboys and UT out of the equation this season!

Texas is a big state with lots of teams, tried to hit as many as I could, ha. FYI, link you edited into your prior post is a 404.

UThomas

10-31-2010, 06:38 PM

Texas is a big state with lots of teams, tried to hit as many as I could, ha. FYI, link you edited into your prior post is a 404.

Thanks- parser put in the parenthesis in the URL. Fixed. BTW- the UT in my handle is for UTexas.

Tunaman

10-31-2010, 06:56 PM

I find your offer #5 very respectable. Now lets get it cleared up ok boys? We should make it a rule around here...If you want to sell here, state your refund policy in your ad. There should be no questions asked when someone wants a refund. It is standard business practice.

Beemer

10-31-2010, 07:04 PM

All arguments aside about what constitutes Excellent vs Good condition. UThomas should have immediately offered a refund minus shipping due to the miscommunication instead of having to be publicly called out.

^^^^^^^^ this

One final comment, I read Beemer's post on your sale thread earlier, not knowing any of the underlying issues, and I really thought that was in poor taste. He should of just PMed you instead of publicly messing with you. Which would have pissed me off and probably made me less cooperative with the buyer. Beemer is a mod here, like a manager at any job, he needs to be careful what he says and where he says it as people will look at what he says with more weight.

This was taken care of by both AE and myself but I guess that wasnt good enough since he made a point to post about it. I have ALL the PMs. This Thread shouldnt have even needed to be posted but he didnt want to work it out so here we are. I could say and post more about the PMs but as stated above I have to be careful

Ok you are right. My apologies. Thread removed

Hey Thomas,
I am sorry you heard about my concerns through another avenue. I did not mean for this discussion to happen that way. I contacted a well respected member about this last night to be sure I was not just being overly picky about the marker's condition. I wasn't trying to arrive at this discussion indirectly. It looks like word spread to beemer and back to you without my knowing. I would have preferred to break this to you directly without external involvement. For that I do apologize. I know it is much better to keep this private, and I did not intend to involve anyone else. I am very sorry for that.

Another from AE to me.

I am sorry for all this trouble. I hope we can hash it out like men and without any further drama.

This was not an attitude Uthomas had.

It would seem you could not work this out with ArmyEngineer.

I was hoping you would work this out. Your sale thread is now back and locked.

EDIT:
Lastly, why should he have to pay for your dishonesty? Why does he have to dish out $60 more on top of the $22 that was paid for shipping already not to include the shipping too you?

What sense does that make? You’re not running a place of business. If that was the case you should have posted the marker in the dealer section. He shouldn’t have to pay for ANYTHING. There’s no working it out anymore. That wrought is a closed road.

I guess you shouldn’t have considered the matter closed. :cuss:

I would pay the shipping back and thats all.

ArmyEngineer

10-31-2010, 07:51 PM

Thomas, thank you for coming back to the discussion. I did not want things to come to this since there are no winners in threads like these.

I appreciate your proposal, however I do not believe that a $70 plus the cost of return shipping should be my responsibility.

The tag on the box says the postage cost $22.70. Your transaction costs were nil as there were no PayPal fees.

If you are willing to refund my payment of $770, I will gladly pay for the shipping back. I am willing to accept that responsibility on account of my particular tendencies. If you have already debited my payment, please just gift the same amount back and we will call this squashed. I will request deletion of this thread and I will edit your feedback thread stating that my issue was resolved fairly. I am even willing to use an intermediary if we can agree on someone to act as one.

UThomas

10-31-2010, 08:05 PM

Smoothice

10-31-2010, 08:16 PM

AE- you started the thread, so you can delete it without asking once this is taken care of.

Sadly it doesn't look like that is going to happen though.

Beemer

10-31-2010, 08:25 PM

Funny you mention him. I asked about this mag and he said you'd probably offload it for 800 if I asked.

Sheesh.

Would you buy it now for seven fifty??????

Ando

10-31-2010, 08:29 PM

You have my best offer - sounds like you might be more interested in keeping it or selling it. If the latter is the case - I can put you in contact with the next buyer in line.

BTW- what part of the marker "was full of paint." Its statements like these that make it very hard for me to take you seriously as a reasonable buyer.

Thanks-

Thomas
Where did you read into his post that he would be interested in keeping it? He doesn't want the marker, that's the whole reason behind this thread. You're being unreasonable. It's statements like this that's going to make it hard for anyone here to do business with you ever again.

You want to keep $70 for what...mental anguish? Why would he give you anything?

ArmyEngineer

10-31-2010, 08:39 PM

You have my best offer - sounds like you might be more interested in keeping it or selling it. If the latter is the case - I can put you in contact with the next buyer in line.

BTW- what part of the marker "was full of paint." Its statements like these that make it very hard for me to take you seriously as a reasonable buyer.

Thanks-

Thomas

I am not interested in keeping the marker, nor do I want the burden of reselling it. I hope you will reconsider since you maintain that it will be such an easy sale. I think it is very fair for each of us to cover a shipping cost. I am not inclined to put $50 in your pocket. The trigger frame had a pretty good buildup inside. The sear lock was sticking as well. It is better post cleanup, but it is still a bit stiff.

Beemer

10-31-2010, 08:47 PM

Its statements like these that make it very hard for me to take you seriously as a reasonable buyer.

Thanks-

Thomas

Holy crap. From your PMs and posts, your statements make it VERY hard for me to take you as a serious and responsible seller.

hill160881

10-31-2010, 08:59 PM

Bet he does not even have the money anymore.

Thus the need for a third party(escrow) to ensure both parties are happy before final payment is made.

Good idea on any a high dollar/collectable item.

On a personal note. I dont like a cheat, but i really hate one that will cheat a US solder. i assume by your name and the reference to, on duty, you are. If not then i still hate a cheat.

UThomas

10-31-2010, 09:08 PM

The fact that you would even act like that marker was covered in paint is ridiculous and yet consistent. This, folks, is part and parcel of the whole deal with this buyer. You want to tell me my description of the marker is off based on crazy lighting conditions, and then make a statement that is *clearly* not true as evidenced in the video I took that shows the breach off and inside of the grip frame for the xmod a few days before I shipped it that I posted earlier. Give me a break. The safety is stiff? Seriously - I know you've been here a year - have you ever read a thread on emags? That minor issue - from the factory - is probably a top 10 thread topic and costs about $0 to remedy if you feel like cutting the safety spring.

If you want to sell it back to me that cost of returning it is 10% of the original sale. If you want to sell it yourself - the transaction cost is zero as you say. If you want to keep it - I hope you enjoy it - it is a fine marker.

BTW - so everyone understands:

If the marker looked as dinged up and scratched as it does in his strobe light pics (but only some of them, again - even in his own pics you see widely different conditions for that small section of the marker) I would absolutely take it back AND cover shipping (and moreover never would have described it as I did).

I - fundamentally - do not believe that represents the condition of the marker. I have posted multiple high quality pictures in normal lighting of the marker that reflect what I saw when I held the marker and were the basis for my description. If he took normal pics they would show the same thing.

Have a good night-

Thomas

UThomas

10-31-2010, 09:11 PM

Beemer - thanks for your continued constructive contributions to this process.

Newt

10-31-2010, 09:11 PM

Unsubscribed. This is way too much drama for my tastes.

Frizzle Fry

10-31-2010, 09:47 PM

His "excellent" appears to be my "LNIB" - especially as it relates to a 5+ year old marker.

"LNIB" stands for "Like New, In Box" which would imply that it was in "like new" condition and "in" the original "box". If a marker has wear of any kind, it's not LNIB; it's just a used marker that includes a box. That sort of differentiation is important, but rarely are the terms represented properly, especially on paintball forums.

I've never had dealings with either party, so I just hope this calms down a bit and you guys are able to find a solution.

Anyway, here's a good resource for listing items appropriately, geared towards high-ends and collectibles:

NIB
A marker that is brand new, in its original box, in perfect condition. It has no wear, includes all original parts and paperwork, and has not been fired outside of the factory where it was tested. Seal on box may be broken, but all stickers, warnings, and internal packaging are still in place. If the marker is NOS, packaging may show shelf wear, discoloration, dust, grime, or be partially re-packaged.

LNIB
A pre-owned marker that has been fired, yet is in perfect condition. No signs that the marker has ever been used or fired, aside from the slightest of wear on the threads of the ASA. Accompanied by the factory box and documentation. No alterations from factory-delivered condition. Shooting perfectly and needs nothing. 100%

Mint
A pre-owned marker that is in very nearly perfect condition. Signs of wear are visible with a low powered magnifier. All parts are original; no upgrades or replacements. May be a gun that is in LNIB condition but not accompanied by the factory box or documentation. No breech wear whatsoever. Shooting perfectly and needs nothing. 98-100%

Near Mint
Showing barely noticeable signs of wear. Possibly has very faint scratches on the frame and trigger visible to the naked eye. Completely original in every way, except maybe grip panels or barrel. Might have a faint discoloration in the breech, but no scratches or bare metal. The marker is shooting perfectly and needs nothing. 93-97%

Excellent
Evidence of use is visible to the unaided eye. Any scratches are light, but more numerous than "near mint". Marker is all original, or been upgraded and includes the original parts (with the exception of grips and barrel). Possibly has slight breech wear and frame wear from use, but body and barrel are clean. Shooting perfectly, needs no immediate repair or service. 88-92%

Very Good
The marker shows what might be considered normal wear by a careful player, Scratches are evident, but no nicks or dings. May have replacement parts or upgrades. Running and shooting, though may need minor calibration. Might need a rebuild after a few cases, but is well lubricated with good condition o-rings and seals. 83-87%

Good
Nothing fundamentally wrong with the gun, though it has quite obviously been used. Shooting and usable, but may not be perfectly tuned. Body may show a few dings, nicks, or scratches. May not have all original parts. Might need lubrication, new o-rings, or other soft parts for optimal functionality, but is functional. 77-82%

Fair
Well used, may require service and/or restoration to be usable. May be functioning erratically. Major components may not be original, but no pieces are missing. Even an untrained eye could tell the gun is worse for wear. Some might call it rough. 72-76%

Poor
Shows abuse, requires service and/or restoration. May have major cosmetic flaws, missing parts, may not fire at all. A speculative piece - 'fixer-upper' would be too generous. Not junk, but requires lots of work to be made usable. 66-71%

Scrap / Parts
A collection of parts that at one time may have been a functioning marker. Now missing parts, may be rusted or corroded, not worth restoring. Most people would call it junk. 64% or worse.

Loguzzzzzz

10-31-2010, 09:52 PM

I am going to start this by saying that this is just my opinion and I realize that it means crap to everyone else but me. That being said. . . .I can see that the both of you are too proud to let this one die.

If I had a customer that was so upset with our transaction as to go to such extreme measures, I could not refund that person's money fast enough, but then that is just me.

UThomas,

You are obviously a person who believes that he has done no wrong here but in an effort to save face, if I were you I would have refunded all the money long before it got to this. There is no way that you will be able to resurrect your reputation unless you do.

Whether ArmEngineer has taken pictures that seem to "highlight" the flaws in this X Mag or not the fact still remains that these flaws exist. You advertised the X mag as "Excellent", not in excellent shape for a used marker but "Excellent", it clearly is not.

I remember reading somewhere in this thread that you are a mod on another forum, not sure which one but maybe you should put your "Moderator's Hat" on and look at this objectively. Take the emotions out of this and I believe that you will see what this has done to your reputation. As far as AO is concerned you have done irreparable damage and will most likely have a very tough time living this one down.

The way I see it you have two choices, refund ArmyEngineer all of his money and have him return everything you sent him or leave things as they are, ruin your reputation here and run the risk of never having a transaction on AO again.

People rarely forget matters such as these.

Just my $0.02

**steps of soap box**

ArmyEngineer

10-31-2010, 09:57 PM

Thomas, surely you know that the electronics are compartmentalized. The paint was in the section where the sear lives. You can try to paint the condition of the marker however you want. Your position is clear, as is mine. Your photos are not representative and that has been explained. If the damage wasn't there, it wouldn't matter what angle or lighting was employed. It simply wouldn't show. You can carry on about paint and rusty detent balls if you want, but don't confuse the issue here. That is petty, and not what I am complaining about.

I have cleaned up my fair share of e-mags. I think you alluded to my history of dissatisfaction. The only purchase that could possibly be was this one. http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246303 I think Frizzle described it as looking like it had fallen in a septic tank. lol Going back through all of my posts trying to dig up dirty laundry is pretty low/immature.

Thomas, the "strobe light" (actually 60W floor lamp) pictures do not show the dings well, scratches yes. I took them before I thought about the spot metering mode on my camera. That is why I took more. As for the variation of appearance from one angle to the next, learn something about how your camera works vs human vision. Again, if the damage wasn't there it wouldn't show up ever. I didn't do anything magical to make the marker look bad.

I keep having to repeat the same responses to your claims. You are stubborn and immature. You also have a terrible sense of business and the ethics involved.

Just when I hoped we were making progress.

Hill, thank you for the kind words. I would be proud to claim active duty. I am an Army civilian, and I do what I do to help improve our warfighters' odds. It's a fun job, and extremely rewarding. We owe them everything we have.

Frizzle, that would be a great sticky, I think.

CatoRockwell

10-31-2010, 11:02 PM

Frizzle, that would be a great sticky, I think.

Agreed, I think those clearly define what condition the marker should be in to receive a certain label.

Beemer, I was not aware of anything going on when I read the post on his sale thread, I wasn't saying you were wrong, simply that to a third party who did not know the underlying situation it looked bad. I was humbly submitting my recommendation to be careful in such matters.

zondo

10-31-2010, 11:06 PM

sweet burn! -_-

But it's true... he didn't offer a refund.

I find your offer #5 very respectable. Now lets get it cleared up ok boys? We should make it a rule around here...If you want to sell here, state your refund policy in your ad. There should be no questions asked when someone wants a refund. It is standard business practice.

Interesting point that should probably be discussed in it's own thread. I think there are pluses and minuses here.

2) He has highlight a 1.5x1.5 inch section of the marker he feels has some pitting issues (not scratched - not thin anno). We disagree on how they look in natural light - but obviously they show up in those conditions. Compare to my pics in regular lighting at normal distance.When I sell guns I don't put them under a spot light to find flaws I don't see normally. At the start of this complaint I was originally just shown zoomed in pics with a bright light on them that makes the gun look purple:

This seems to be the fundamental point. You agree to disagree on the definition of the condition and that your pictures don't show what his do. Discriminating or not, the buyer had an expectation (unreasonable or not) that wasn't met. If there are buyers waiting, as you say, then re-selling shouldn't be an issue.

When I saw that - after he had gone to the mods who were making bratty posts (Beemer) on my sale thread - I thought "this guy is a jerk and either has buyers remorse or is not a reasonable buyer."

3) I would offer him a full refund if I thought anything other than a NIB marker would have satisfied him to begin with or if I failed to provide him opportunities to learn about the markers cosmetic condition. I also was extremely aggravated that I found this issue out through a passive aggressive post by Beemer on the sale thread. That did not show me good faith on his part. As such - I offered to put him in contact with other interested buyers with cash in hand. Which he ignored - which again lead me to believe this is just not a reasonable buyer. You can see other posts he has made where he bought markers and had buyers remorse for not asking questions about the condition.

I also have a high expectation based on the interest I received at the $760 price point that he would be able to flip it quickly and for minimal (if any) loss. But he would have to do the "footwork" - which I think is reasonable and fair.

I do agree that I would be pissed off, as well, if I found out about a dispute by a mod posting in my thread. Did Beemer just tell you to F-off after you called him on it or did he apologize? I've seen him act first and apologize later, but I get the feeling that not many seem to forgive but decide to hold grudges instead.

It sounds like Army just wants his money back and not asking for a NIB marker. Again, if there are other interested buyers, it seems like this whole issue is belabored because of the level of distrust between both of you and you wanting to make a point. He is the buyer not the seller and it shouldn't be his obligation to flip the marker because his expectations weren't met. If there is such distrust, I'm sure that there would be a reputable person to act as 3rd party to make sure a return goes well. Shoot, with all the lip service being paid to this thread, there's probably someone who'd do it for free.

Not one negative there (though I have had one here - a 14 yo kid who bought a max flo here about 7 years ago turned it up past venting pressure - and then paid a tech $50 to turn it down). I also didn't offer that kid a refund.

This is apples to oranges, and you know it.

Ando

11-01-2010, 05:43 AM

Agreed, I think those clearly define what condition the marker should be in to receive a certain label.

Beemer, I was not aware of anything going on when I read the post on his sale thread, I wasn't saying you were wrong, simply that to a third party who did not know the underlying situation it looked bad. I was humbly submitting my recommendation to be careful in such matters.
Beemer knew exactly what was going on.

He knows all :eek:

Beemer

11-01-2010, 09:32 AM

Beemer - thanks for your continued constructive contributions to this process.

You are welcome. You are the one who let it get to this point. I already told AE to feel free to post any PMs I sent him and I will tell you the same. Is it ok with you If I post your PMs??

The fact is I dont need permission to post what I sent in PMs. It would look bad seeing only one side of the convo and be bad judgement. With that said I will stand by all my PMs sent to you and him. It wont bother me in the least if they go from Private M to Public M.

Also know this. If it was YOU on the other end of the stick I would be standing in front just like I am now with ArmyE. You are our friend and he is our friend. We are only as strong as our weakest link. All I know is you are both members of AO. Some might say this thread is making AO look BAD. I would agree but then I remember this quote.

"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27590474@N07/4288570448/

Good or bad, big or small AO is a rock, we will stand in matters of principle.

This is a post that I removed from your sale thread, it is back now.

"Just an FYI on what GOOD traders do on AO."

Thread. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2719524#post2719524

Now that I thank of it a little more. If you are so unhappy with it, send it back and Ill refund your money when I recieve it. I can always put it back in my stash for a later build.
My shipping address is as follows:

Guy Dailey
312-T Schillinger Rd #342
Mobile, Al 36608

Thanks Beemer. Im not tring to rip anyone off, I just want to move these parts so I can pay off somethings. But I dont want unhappy customers eather.

This is what AO is. Do the right thing. PM ArmyE make it right and get him to remove this thread. It will not be removed by the mods. Your call.

Beemer

11-01-2010, 09:55 AM

Beemer, I was not aware of anything going on when I read the post on his sale thread, I wasn't saying you were wrong, simply that to a third party who did not know the underlying situation it looked bad. I was humbly submitting my recommendation to be careful in such matters.

But you are right. I was wrong. It looked BAD. I know it looked bad and I apologized. The thread and posts were removed and the member was given the chance to make it right, but look where we are now. The Thread and all posts are back. :(

Would I do it all over again? Absolutely. We stand like a rock or we dont stand at all.

CatoRockwell

11-01-2010, 12:35 PM

I respect that you are willing to admit that and removed your post. That says a lot about your character. :cheers:

BigEvil

11-01-2010, 01:22 PM

I respect that you are willing to admit that and removed your post. That says a lot about your character. :cheers:

You can say what you want about his age, looks, bad breath, clothes, or the fact that he prefers girlie-drinks, but he is a 110% stand up guy and his heart is ALWAYS in the right place.

It's situations like that that scare the crap out of me when selling high end items. I always try to understate the condition, provide tons of pics, and clearly state any potential issues. I would rather have a buyer get something better than he expected than worst.

If this was me, I would feel obligated to offer the buyer a full refund, minus shipping.

Just my $.02

going_home

11-01-2010, 01:35 PM

If this was me, I would feel obligated to offer the buyer a full refund, minus shipping.

Agreed, but I'd do a full refund and he would eat the shipping back to me.

:ninja:

BigEvil

11-01-2010, 01:39 PM

Agreed, but I'd do a full refund and he would eat the shipping back to me.

:ninja:

;)

Alpha {MWB}

11-01-2010, 06:43 PM

Goodness. This is why i am so picky as a buyer, always the big chance of getting into a situation like this. Hope everything works out guys.

Whole movies are based off misscommunications smaller than this.

Newt

11-01-2010, 10:17 PM

Lots of opinions here. Here's a couple facts:

#1
I personally own & operate a business which provides custom made tools in the price range of this sale. When a customer is not 100% happy with their purchase within 30 days (I usually give more), they may return it to me for a full refund. This is nearly universal practice whenever you pay with a credit card. That includes even buyers remorse, wife decided they needed more $ for Christmas, or whatever. When I buy something, I expect to be treated the same way.

#2
Platitudes aside, that post on item conditions needs to be added to the BST rules sticky.

#3
Hooray Beer!

If anything, this whole mess needs to serve as an indicator that the BST rules should be amended. If AO has standards, it would be a great idea to have them in writing.

UThomas

11-02-2010, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the different points of view guys. Obviously everyone brings their own past experiences to the table, and only 2 of us have actually seen the marker in person to gauge what condition it is in.

Army - you have options I've outlined, feel free to PM me. I have not ignored any of your PM's throughout the process.

I have had over 15 years of positive transactions on the net selling paintball goods starting with rec.sport.paintball on usenet in the early/mid 90's (TIP#817 for those who know what that is). I have had exceptionally few buyer disputes, the last one being ~7 years ago on here as referenced. I have also had very few seller disputes, but I know what type of buyer I am and I take ownership in the process and make sure I get all the evidence I need to feel good about the transaction. I am not a guy with a beer budget and champaign tastes. I resell the gun if I get it and it doesn't meet my expectations (I did this with a rare lifesaver fade evolution a/c within the last year to a satisfied buyer).

If, at the end of the day, this turns out to be one of those exceptions because Army does not like his options and my attempt to satisfy them in what I consider a fair and reasonable manner, then I am comfortable with that. This post was not a surprise - we obviously were not able to come to a meeting of the minds through PM either. He is exerting the leverage he has - I don't have a problem with that.

I am doing what I think is the right thing to do in this transaction; it is not about the money. I think myself or Army can resell that gun without taking a loss in a heart beat. That is partially the basis for my stance on the "full" refund. I would like him to take some ownership in the process of this transaction - I feel like he has wasted a ton of my time before/during/after the transaction, and if he wants to waste more of it to resell his gun there is a fee associated with it. If, on the other hand, he is willing to invest his own time in it - he will likely recoup ALL of his money. He could even recoup more given that price is one of the lowest prices an even decent condition x-mag has sold for on AO in the last 5 years. He will also get some needed experience IMO as a seller of that type of gun. I'm very curious to see what his ad description looks like and if it includes pictures of more than just a 1.5x1.5 of the marker...

I think for me, standard practice going forward is going to video tape all markers I sell and post on youtube. I've done this with several markers recently and had good results (a C&C X-mag and an 11 year old westwood autococker). For this, given the condition I perceived this marker to be in having seen it in person, and the quality of pictures I was able to take of it, I felt that was not necessary. Live and learn.

Thomas

Ando

11-02-2010, 11:38 AM

Your a straight up piece of **** Thomas and shouldn't be outlining any options to anyone. No one cares how long you been playing, selling or blowing smoke up peoples ***es. I hope Beemer bans you indefinitely for this. There's an old saying....You can be the greatest bridge builder in the world but suck one **** and your labeled a **** sucker for the rest of your life. That's going to be your reign on AO...

Your perceivance of the marker was **** and you wanting money from a sour deal that is completely your fault is down right an ***-hole thing to do. Welcome to the Chris Nearchos club.

EDIT:

Is perceivance a word? :tard:

Flatliner333

11-02-2010, 11:58 AM

:eek:

teufelhunden

11-02-2010, 12:06 PM

zondo

11-02-2010, 12:08 PM

Is perceivance a word? :tard:

I think you meant perception... but you were on a roll and I went with it.

georgeyew

11-02-2010, 12:17 PM

Thomas,

Your time would not have been wasted if you would have answered his questions honestly. I don't think that he had to ask you about the condition of every part of the marker for you to realize that he is an extremely picky buyer. And since you knew that he was picky, you should have known that he would have cared about scratches on other parts of the marker as well (not just the parts he specifically asked about). You described the anno as "looks almost new". That is far from accurate. When I sell things whether by mail or in person, I always give the buyers a chance to look over the product. If they are not happy, I have no problems giving back the money. That's just how I do things.

UThomas

11-02-2010, 01:33 PM

I think at this point what would be nice for you guys is if Army post pics of the whole gun in natural lighting without glare - the exact specs he asked of me that I provided.

That way you can get a feel for what the marker looks like in its entirety in normal conditions and judge for yourselves. The other side of the marker without dispute looks almost new as the pictures will indicate.

Thomas

BTW - the safety mechanism is stainless - it doesn't rust.

SockMonkey

11-02-2010, 02:16 PM

The problem Thomas is that he has done a very good job at showing what you've done (intentional or not) though it does lean towards the intentional side.

But If I was buying a 1965 Shelby Cobra for $50,000 (an ORIGINAL not a kit car), and I was told the paint was "like new" and "sweet" and the car was in EXCELLENT condition, and I finally receive the car and the driver side had terrible bondo work and a $150 MACCO paint job, i'd be pissed too...

Yeah $50k for an original 65 shelby is an awesome deal, and I am sure I could flip it and get my money back (or even more)... but thats not what I bought and that not what I wanted, I wanted an EXCELLENT '65 shelby with like new paint.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF ITS A SWEET DEAL... IT WAS NOT AS DESCRIBED. (Even if that wasn't your intention..)

E N D - O F - S T O R Y ! ! ! !

And I find it very odd that you mention wear on the bottom of the battery, but not a single mention of the damage he has CLEARLY shown...

UThomas

11-02-2010, 02:29 PM

"and I finally receive the car and the driver side had terrible bondo work and a $150 MACCO paint job, i'd be pissed too..."

That is not analogous to this because the gun is in great shape. Which will be apparent if you look at the high res pictures of the gun I posted, watch the gun in the video clip I posted, OR he takes pictures of the whole gun in a natural light as he asked me to do.

That does not support his narrative though. It is similar to him saying the gun "was full of paint" when in fact the whole exterior, the breach, valve, and inside of the grip frame have been shown to have no paint on it what-so-ever. So I suspect he found a spec on the back of the trigger (I cleaned the gun with q-tips and windex like I do all my gear) and then posted that. Similar to "well, you can't really see this atrocious damage until I get an inch away and shine a light directly on to get a reflection."

In fact, if he takes me up on my refund offer I will immediately take a video of the entire gun and I think a lot of people will change their tune very quickly.

Thomas

UThomas

11-02-2010, 02:42 PM

I'll add that when I do sell it, I will return to him the difference between what I paid him and the sale price. So I won't be making extra coin off the 90% buy back.

Thordic

11-02-2010, 02:54 PM

Here's a solution.

Who out there owns what they consider an "excellent" gun? One that they would descibe as excellent, but has been actually used and is not "NIB" or "LNIB".

Stick it under harsh angled lighting. A bare lightbulb reflecting off the anno at an angle so every flaw is apparent. Take some high-res pics. Then post them.

If your "excellent" gun has visible flaws, maybe UThomas isn't so full of **** after all.

If your "excellent" gun still looks pretty flawless, then he is full of crap and deserves the abuse he is getting.

Problem solved.

Drix

11-02-2010, 02:54 PM

That is not analogous to this because the gun is in great shape.

Thomas
Great is not excellent- And not so much :ninja:

OPBN

11-02-2010, 02:55 PM

SCpoloRicker

11-02-2010, 03:00 PM

11/02/10 09:38 AM

Reported.

CatoRockwell

11-02-2010, 03:04 PM

I have an E-Tac that was annodized earlier this year, I've used this gun almost exclusively since I got it back and I would say it is in excellent condition with the exclusion of 1 scratch that is on the rail near where the SS hose fitting goes into the valve, and the fact that the battery casing must have been a slightly different metal due to the fact that it annodized a shade lighter than the rest of the marker. I'd be willing to take some pictures of it up close.

Thordic

11-02-2010, 03:45 PM

UThomas

11-02-2010, 04:19 PM

A good example of how high glare lighting effects the pics on a gloss black marker:

<img src="http://a.yfrog.com/img299/6279/img1478h.jpg" height="640" width="640" />

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg4/scaled.php?tn=0&server=4&filename=img1569yo.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

These are both his pics. Do you believe those are the same markers? Do you feel the same way about the condition based on these pics? He states "The damage is very visible."

I first saw the first one and thought "Holly cow - time to call USPS and file a claim because someone tore that gun up." Then the part of the 2nd pic (of the same section without the glare) - shows what the my eye sees - a even deep gloss black finish capable of mirroring a reflection. It also shows what my pics show, and what my video of the marker show, and what I described.

Here is another of his pics of the WORST part of the marker:

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg214/scaled.php?tn=0&server=214&filename=img1471u.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

Here is the pic I sent him - was ~4 meg in size and taken in natural light. Detailed enough to see my finger print on the section in question. He says the "The damage is very visible." Then again, he also says the "was full of paint."

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/x1.JPG

Like I said, if I took a vid of the gun you might have a very very different perspective on it's condition compared to what he has chosen to share here.

Here, for example - is a lower res pic of the other side of the marker (I have it in ~3000x2000 uncompressed also).

Does anyone disagree that this anno is excellent here? Army hasn't even.

http://a.yfrog.com/img220/7632/img0660vq.jpg

with some glare (but not point blank) from the original add:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/Pics/FS_xmag_1.jpg

CatoRockwell

11-02-2010, 04:32 PM

BigEvil

11-02-2010, 04:41 PM

Send it to Tuna, let him size it up, and make a call.

SockMonkey

11-02-2010, 04:43 PM

I think one big problem here is the different (maybe particularly your) view of 'excellent'. That last pic of the marker is a bit more representative of actual condition, but I would not call that marker 'excellent', maybe 'great condition' but not excellent..

There is a big difference in wording between "its in excellent condition for its age and how much use it has had" and "this marker is in excellent condition".

UThomas

11-02-2010, 04:48 PM

SockMonkey - totally agree. I think one thing that hasn't been clear to people is we are not arguing over if the marker is in "excellent" cosmetic condition or "trashed." It is "excellent" vs "very good" vs "mint" vs "good." I think that is an important distinction, especially as it relates to some of the more... passionate posters :)

Would love to see Army post some pics of the full gun, both sides, in normal natural lighting.

Thomas

Newt

11-02-2010, 04:58 PM

I think you guys should agree to some 3rd party that you both respect who has a long history in the industry with selling/purchasing, ship the marker out to him, have him make a personal determination on quality.
That's an excellent ideal with two problems:
Neither party is going to budge here short of ninja suited federal alphabet soup agency boys showing up at their doors. All bridges concerned are well and truly burned. Who here would purchase this marker now at the price it originally sold for?

Also, the issue is not the condition of the gun The issue is that the customer is unsatisfied with the merchandise and has asked for a refund. When the customer asks for a refund within a reasonable time frame (30 days is completely standard), you give him an RMA number, and return funds to the original account when the goods arrive. Period.

UThomas

11-02-2010, 05:18 PM

That's an excellent ideal with two problems:
Neither party is going to budge here short of ninja suited federal alphabet soup agency boys showing up at their doors. All bridges concerned are well and truly burned. Who here would purchase this marker now at the price it originally sold for?

Also, the issue is not the condition of the gun The issue is that the customer is unsatisfied with the merchandise and has asked for a refund. When the customer asks for a refund within a reasonable time frame (30 days is completely standard), you give him an RMA number, and return funds to the original account when the goods arrive. Period.

First, Army has not PM'd me about his multiple current options - but there is still a chance. It will be unfortunate if something doesn't work out - this situation does not currently have any "winners" and neither of us are satisfied.

That said, I am not a store. I do not do RMA's or unconditional refunds. I do not promise unconditional refund at any point as a term of sale and they are not assumed (esp for used goods). Many many companies, from F500 retailers to local stores, have restocking fees, and many are more than 10%.

I'll also say - that this marker should sell quickly (for him or me) given the interest I had at the price point he bought it for - which is historically on the very low end for an xmag. I am not concerned about the resale - and if he was interested he could have taken my original point and sold it in the first week he got it to the guy he was ahead of in line. You can see multiple ones posted in the $1100 range right now, and gloss black is a very popular color from what I've seen over the years. For better or worse, not as many people read the Talk forum on AO as you might think.

Thanks-

Thomas

maniacmechanic

11-02-2010, 05:55 PM

I think one big problem here is the different (maybe particularly your) view of 'excellent'. That last pic of the marker is a bit more representative of actual condition, but I would not call that marker 'excellent', maybe 'great condition' but not excellent...

Last pic was of the right side , it was stated earlier that there are no flaw's on that side , all the problems are on the left side

Tunaman

11-02-2010, 07:51 PM

With the reputation for quality that AGD has always had, I would find it hard to beleive that this left their hands in this pitted and/or dinged up condition. If this is in fact factory anodizing, I wonder if it was a reject that got back doored?
Alot of these Xmags came FROM THE FACTORY with not so perfect anno jobs. There were guns with PLENTY of dings UNDER the anno because of low quailty polishing, as there is today. Nothing is perfect, and you can't expect it to be. It is what it is. I'll buy it right now.

Chris

11-02-2010, 07:58 PM

I don't think that Thomas deliberately misrepresented the condition of the marker. Having owned numerous gloss black markers in the past, I know that it is difficult to get a good surface photo. Additionally, those pock-marks do not appear to be scratches, but rather a metal preparation issue prior to anno. I'd also be royally pissed if I felt that a buyer went to a mod before discussing the issue with me.

I have had very few issues with buyers myself, one was recently where I sold a PGP, I threw a 12g in it and shot a few rounds in the back yard before sending it out, to make sure that it worked...unfortunately, I removed the 12g after a few shots, and froze some o-rings. Needless to say, when the buyer received it, it leaked. We were able to work out a deal, where I purchased some spare parts for him to make it right...in the end we both walked away happy. On the flip side, many years back, I sold a used mask. Photos of it were posted, and when the buyer received it, he was upset about the paint stains. They were clearly shown, and discussions were going nowhere...nothing I could do to make it right short of a full refund, which was unreasonable in my opinion.

That being said, I think the best thing AE can do, if he is truly dis-satisfied with the X-mag, is to put it up for sale. He'll get his money back, and likely be able to turn it for a profit. Go ahead and put UThomas on your 'don't buy list', and consider this a lesson learned in being overly specific about what you are looking for.

Chris

11-02-2010, 08:01 PM

Alot of these Xmags came FROM THE FACTORY with not so perfect anno jobs. There were guns with PLENTY of dings UNDER the anno because of low quailty polishing, as there is today. Nothing is perfect, and you can't expect it to be. It is what it is. I'll buy it right now.

I couldn't agree more. Just like a model, most of the X-mags need a little photoshop to make them look 'perfect'.

Frizzle Fry

11-02-2010, 08:07 PM

Alot of these Xmags came FROM THE FACTORY with not so perfect anno jobs. There were guns with PLENTY of dings UNDER the anno because of low quailty polishing, as there is today. Nothing is perfect, and you can't expect it to be. It is what it is. I'll buy it right now.

I would tend to agree, but there are definite scratches in a pattern around the detent, and those would tend to disqualify the marker from "excellent" or "like new" condition.

going_home

11-02-2010, 08:30 PM

Sell the marker to Tuna and please let this thread die the death. :ninja:

Tunaman

11-02-2010, 08:31 PM

Put a coat of GOOD car wax on there like Natty's Black and 90 percent of those swirl marks will be gone.

UThomas

11-02-2010, 08:35 PM

So I realized after a lot of the posts that most people were not looking at the pics I posted and linked to - just his embedded pics. So some additional photos for you guys (got my DSLR and looked the the originals and a few others I had taken). No editing done except to crop the picture (no auto adjust):

His pic of "bad" spot (other side acknowledged flawless cosmetically, and it is functionally flawless) with direct ultra bright lighting:
<img src="http://a.yfrog.com/img299/6279/img1478h.jpg" height="640" width="640" />

His pic - same spot but shined light focused lower:
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg4/scaled.php?tn=0&server=4&filename=img1569yo.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

My original pics of the "bad" spot - anything with white background is in a diffused natural light box (I bought it just for paintball pics -don't judge me :) ) - the mat pics are from a saturday afternoon on my front porch.

He states "The damage is very visible."

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/anno1.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/anno2.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/anno4.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/anno5.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~thomas_mitchell/images/anno6.jpg

UThomas

11-02-2010, 08:47 PM

Hopefully that helps explain why I described the marker the way I did and have been rejecting comparisons to "terrible bondo work and a $150 MACCO paint job."

That is what the WORST part of the marker looks like in normal conditions..

Drix

11-02-2010, 09:20 PM

I still wouldn't describe this gun as excellent, and therefore I'm not sure it was represented accuratly. Guess we'll see how the flaming continues though- I do believe that comparisons to $150 macco jobs might be a bit much however.

ArmyEngineer

11-02-2010, 09:31 PM

That is what the WORST part of the marker looks like in normal conditions..
No it's not. That's the warp breech too. But this is over. Thomas has fixed this. And I am tired of arguing.

He has offered to partially cover a reanodizing. I think his offer is fair and reasonable. :clap:

This has been a very heated discussion, and I feel like we have touched on some things that should be stickied in the BST thread. Spelling out condition thresholds will hopefully prevent a buyer-seller disconnect in the future.

Squashed. (And there was much rejoicing throughout the land.)

Drix

11-02-2010, 09:47 PM

Hurray! :bounce: :dance: :bounce:

+ 1 for better rules on the stickies.

ArmyEngineer

11-02-2010, 09:49 PM

Thomas sent me a PayPal gift.

mostpeople

11-02-2010, 09:54 PM

Thomas sent me a PayPal gift.

delete thread?

ArmyEngineer

11-02-2010, 09:57 PM

delete thread?

Thomas asked that it stay up for a day or two. I would delete it now, because I think it has only stirred up animosity between everyone. However, you can't see that it has been resolved unless it is here. It will be gone tomorrow night unless he asks me to get rid of it sooner.