Capping and Devolumizing Classic Valve?

[OPBN]

I have seen where a member here had a cap made for their X Valve and used an external requlator in the foregrip. Is this possible with a Classic Valve? Could you do this in conjuction with the devolumizing the Smoothice has done?

[factoid]

I have seen where a member here had a cap made for their X Valve and used an external requlator in the foregrip. Is this possible with a Classic Valve? Could you do this in conjuction with the devolumizing the Smoothice has done?


I wasn't aware it was even possible with an x-valve, I'd only heard of this being done on a classic valve. It works basically the same way.

The thing to be wary of is that the regulator has the locking pin that keeps the valve from smoothing off the rail. You'll need to either mill some kind of new z-lock into the rail and put a pin in the valve or reg cap, or else come up with an alternative method for keeping the valve in place.

Positioning is key...the tolerances for where the valve must sit are fairly tight.

[TwilightG]

I think it's DeuxMachina on MCarterBrown. He has a few for classic valves now (last I checked). The xvalve cap he made was a one-off and had to be built to the specific valve.

[SockMonkey]

It is actually quite hard to get it to work on an x-valve, its much more complicated..

With a classic valve its basically a bolt on mod. You just have to choose which style you want to buy. (the guy who sells these has many different looks) hes on MCB I believe.

[Smoothice]

It should work. Actually may work even better with co2 then the back half of the valve.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x57/smoothice15/dfffb59c.jpg

[OPBN]

I wasn't aware it was even possible with an x-valve, I'd only heard of this being done on a classic valve. It works basically the same way.

The thing to be wary of is that the regulator has the locking pin that keeps the valve from smoothing off the rail. You'll need to either mill some kind of new z-lock into the rail and put a pin in the valve or reg cap, or else come up with an alternative method for keeping the valve in place.

Positioning is key...the tolerances for where the valve must sit are fairly tight.
Actually, the field strip screw holds the valve in place. The Z pin just keeps the regulator from unscrewing.

Can someone confirm if it is Deuxmachina? I haven't looked on MCB yet.

Smooth, I am not getting the pic? What is it showing?

[Smoothice]

.

Smooth, I am not getting the pic? What is it showing?

so people can see what part of the valve is affected by the devolumizing.

[OPBN]

Apparently, it Deus Machina on MCB. I've contacted him, thanks.

[Frizzle Fry]

I wasn't aware it was even possible with an x-valve, I'd only heard of this being done on a classic valve. It works basically the same way.

The thing to be wary of is that the regulator has the locking pin that keeps the valve from smoothing off the rail. You'll need to either mill some kind of new z-lock into the rail and put a pin in the valve or reg cap, or else come up with an alternative method for keeping the valve in place.

Positioning is key...the tolerances for where the valve must sit are fairly tight.

The Z-lock is an additional safety feature but it's not by any means necessary. Plenty of people go without it, plenty of aftermarket valve backs don't have it, and I'm about 99% sure that Tom only included it to avoid lawsuits when some moron pulled his field strip screw with his marker still gassed up and shot a valve into his chest or something. Granted it's helpful when installing your valve so you don't have to feel around with the tip of the field strip screw to get the threads to catch.

As for being more difficult to cap an X-valve than a classic, well, that's just not true. I'm not sure how or why you would think that, but it's pretty much the same process. The only suggestion I have is that you used SS for a classic valve cap and aluminum for the X-valve. The only reason I suggest this is that aluminum and stainless steel expand at different rates, 0.0000231 and 0.0000173 per C* respectively.... Not a huge deal, but a bit beyond negligible. It'll also give you a decent balance and the ability to easily match the finish of the valve.

As for "tolerances" all you need is the appropriate die (I'll pull mine out and get you a number), a valve back for reference, a micrometer, and a stock o-ring. If it's no 100% perfect spacing, you contact O-ring Monkey and he'll get you something a tiny bit thicker or thinner depending on what you need... He can even get you different materials. It's not really that hard if you have a basic machine skills.

[SockMonkey]

There was a guy who did it with an x-valve and I remember reading there was more to it then the classic valve, like he had to have a special part made or something.

I'm at work now but, I will try to find it, its on MCB were I read it IIRC.

[Frizzle Fry]

There was a guy who did it with an x-valve and I remember reading there was more to it then the classic valve, like he had to have a special part made or something.

I'm at work now but, I will try to find it, its on MCB were I read it IIRC.

I capped one and had no problem... I can't imagine what he'd need to have made.

[OPBN]

The Z-lock is an additional safety feature but it's not by any means necessary. Plenty of people go without it, plenty of aftermarket valve backs don't have it, and I'm about 99% sure that Tom only included it to avoid lawsuits when some moron pulled his field strip screw with his marker still gassed up and shot a valve into his chest or something. Granted it's helpful when installing your valve so you don't have to feel around with the tip of the field strip screw to get the threads to catch.

As for being more difficult to cap an X-valve than a classic, well, that's just not true. I'm not sure how or why you would think that, but it's pretty much the same process. The only suggestion I have is that you used SS for a classic valve cap and aluminum for the X-valve. The only reason I suggest this is that aluminum and stainless steel expand at different rates, 0.0000231 and 0.0000173 per C* respectively.... Not a huge deal, but a bit beyond negligible. It'll also give you a decent balance and the ability to easily match the finish of the valve.

As for "tolerances" all you need is the appropriate die (I'll pull mine out and get you a number), a valve back for reference, a micrometer, and a stock o-ring. If it's no 100% perfect spacing, you contact O-ring Monkey and he'll get you something a tiny bit thicker or thinner depending on what you need... He can even get you different materials. It's not really that hard if you have a basic machine skills.
If you have the ability to make one for a Classic LMK. I have contacted Deus Machina and he has yet to reply. Looks like a couple of people on MCB have contacted him, but not sure if he has replied to them yet either.

[OPBN]

Also, besides a Palmer Stab, does anyone offer a reg that is a screw in type that will handle CO2? I like the Palmers, but it's a little longer than I was hoping for, and from what I can tell, the CCM one is LP.

[Frizzle Fry]

I did two earlier this year, I'd have to hunt down the die and a couple pieces of 304 stock I found in the right length. No promises.



from what I can tell, the CCM one is LP.
The automag operates at fairly low pressure.

[OPBN]

I did two earlier this year, I'd have to hunt down the die and a couple pieces of 304 stock I found in the right length. No promises.



The automag operates at fairly low pressure.
Hex end as in a slot for an allen wrench? The ones I saw offered had either a slot or torgue hole in them. I would be more apt to want a torgue hole. Depending on the thickness, could you also tap for a gauge ini the end? Still debating this, but LMK if you can offer as an option.

According to what I found the in line reg they offer is only 0-450. None of my mags operate at less than 600+

Also, my uncle in law operates a metal fabricating place here in town. I don't think he does this type of machining, but he may have metal scraps laying around. If you can't find what you need, give me an exact description and I may be able to get it from him.

[Frizzle Fry]

Hex end as in a slot for an allen wrench? The ones I saw offered had either a slot or torgue hole in them. I would be more apt to want a torgue hole. Depending on the thickness, could you also tap for a gauge ini the end? Still debating this, but LMK if you can offer as an option.

According to what I found the in line reg they offer is only 0-450. None of my mags operate at less than 600+

Also, my uncle in law operates a metal fabricating place here in town. I don't think he does this type of machining, but he may have metal scraps laying around. If you can't find what you need, give me an exact description and I may be able to get it from him.

I don't currently have the ability to do an allen key hole. I've done a knurled end you can remove by hand, or a hex end you can remove with a crescent wrench... I suppose if I made it a little deeper I could drill and tap the back to 1/8npt and the side to 10-32 so it could be removed that way. I just wish I had the two caps I made... dumb move selling the whole project :(

As for input pressure, that's 600 input to the marker when it has the valve back / regulator installed.

[OPBN]

I don't currently have the ability to do an allen key hole. I've done a knurled end you can remove by hand, or a hex end you can remove with a crescent wrench... I suppose if I made it a little deeper I could drill and tap the back to 1/8npt and the side to 10-32 so it could be removed that way. I just wish I had the two caps I made... dumb move selling the whole project :(

As for input pressure, that's 600 input to the marker when it has the valve back / regulator installed.
I'll probably old off on the guage hole. I want to try it without it first, if I think I need one later, it should be pretty easy to tap it. I would prefer the 10-32 hole vs the hex end. If you are up for doing it, send me a PM with a price.

I get you on the pressure. You're saying it takes >600 input to reset everything with the back reg on, but the reg isn't actually putting out that much pressure to fire. I just want to be sure before I plunk down $50-75 on a reg that I find later doesn't work.

[athomas]

You have to be careful when capping an X-valve. It has feedback from the chamber to the regulator piston. A cap similar to the classic, would cause the air to bypass the on-off pin. You need to provide a plug for the hole where the air feeds back to the rear section of the valve.

[OPBN]

I'm capping a Classic so this shouldn't be an issue right?

[athomas]

Classic valves are not a problem. The only air passage into the front chamber is through the hole at the top of the on-off pin.

[OPBN]

So when capping this off, do I remove the valve pin? How exactly does this work?

[athomas]

Remove all the guts. You are essentially allowing the air to go directly from the valve input to the top of the on-off pin.

[OPBN]

PM'd you Frizzle. Let me know if you can or can't make the cap. Not in a huge hurry, but if you can't/don't want to do it, I need to find someone that will.

[OPBN]

Anybody else willing/capable of making one of these? Can't seem to get a commitment from anyone.

[BlackOps]

Someone made a bunch of caps over on MCB. I'm trying to dredge up the post now.

[BlackOps]

Never mind, I guess it was Deus. Does he not have anymore?

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/misc-paintball-items/128088-classic-mag-reg-caps-finally-up.html

[OPBN]

Never mind, I guess it was Deus. Does he not have anymore?

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/misc-paintball-items/128088-classic-mag-reg-caps-finally-up.html
I have PM'd and emailed him but he isn't replying, so I assume he is sold out. I have posted up on MCB as well, so maybe someone will come up with something. BigEvil suggested Coolhand. If any other takers, let me know.

[OPBN]

Deus finally came back and said he had a couple on stock. I also would like to mention that XM15 said he can make these for $25.00/pc if anyone else is interested. Coolhand also said he is capable, but did not give a price.

[CatoRockwell]

This thread has peaked my curiousity. Can anyone tell me the benefits of doing this mod, if any?

[OPBN]

Benefit is in the eye of the beholder. Seriously, I was just looking for something different. I planned on using a foregrip anyways, so figured why not just use a reg in it's place and sheer some weight off of the valve. I also plan on cutting down the rail to match and maybe having Luke ULE the rail after he has pump milled it.

[factoid]

Can you do this mod without ruining the RT capability of your valve?

That's why I previously thought this was impossible with an RT style valve.

The way I understand the RT valve to work is that the full input pressure from the tank acts upon both the regulator AND the on/off valve. That high incoming pressure is what causes the on/off pin to be so forceful and push back on your finger, causing the bounce.

At the same time the air is also going through the regulator and then coming out at a lower pressure when it goes into the valve chamber.


If the pressure that goes into the air inlet is pre-regulated to 500psi (or whatever the correct operating pressure is) it won't have that higher pressure on the on/off.

If you're shooting an E/Pneu/EP Mag that might not matter, or maybe my understanding of the air flow mechanics is faulty.

[OPBN]

^^^ not a clue. I plan on using it on a classic valved pump.

[athomas]

factoid, you are correct. You can't modify a retro valve with this modification because of the different paths that the air takes.

[fierymartel]

DeuxMachina actually had a BST thread on here for the caps. I have one. I actually found it easier to adjust the velocity of the ball. I have an old mac dev regulator with 150-750 psi output. I am actually going to try to RT a classic valve with this. I believe if the dump chamber is devolumized in conjunction with a heavier spring and a ULT or RT on/off this might be possible. The goal is to achieve a high operating pressure without too high a velocity. Input welcome and all thread hijacking is purely incidental ;)

[athomas]

High operating pressure in the chamber decreases reactiveness. Its the high pressure entering the valve that produces it. The pressure differential between the chamber pressure and the input pressure is what produces the majority of the reactivity. On capped valves, the regulator is external and all air coming into the valves is regulated so you reduce the pressure differential based on the fact that you are only using low pressure air at the input all the time. The air entering the chamber on a classic valve is already regulated which is why it is not as reactive as the retro valve. By removing the regulator and capping the valve, you don't change anything from the air pressure point of view. All the cap does, is remove part of the stainless regulator off the back half of the valve and relocate it somewhere else.

When you remove the regulator from a retro valve, you are removing the one thing that makes a retro valve reactive, which is the ability to provide full tank pressure directly to the top of the on-off pin. You will have a non-reactive retro valve, which is a essentially a classic valve.

[fierymartel]

Gotcha, air in dump chamber vs air pressure at on/off. Not going to be able to change that. I thought it was simply the high pressure at on/off. Thanks for the heads up.