Tom: FYI a collection of observation about products

[cphilip]

Ok here they are Tom. All just FYI. They are a collection of things people have told me they think make sense. Some of them actualy do to me. They are those never ending string of constructive criticisms that may make sense to them and perhaps not to you...but none the less...here they are:


1) Make a Carbon Fiber Single Trigger 45 frame for the Classic, Auto and Mini and ditch the old style Carbon fiber grip that doesn't take 45 grips.

2)Make an intelli style frame without the expensive internal Intelli milling to lower cost so someone can buy an Aluminum 45 frame from AGD on the Mag at a lower cost who doesn't care about the Intelli Feature.

3) Complete the Intellifeed feature with all the roller switch and plugs and such, all ready to go, in house, and charge for it.

Some old ideas and some fairly new.

[shartley]

3) Complete the Intellifeed feature with all the roller switch and plugs and such, all ready to go, in house, and charge for it.
I too have heard this MANY times. I think it is silly to hear “You can get all the parts at your local Radio Shack for only $4.00!” but then you have to go GET them. For the price of the Frame, it is odd that AGD does not supply the $4.00 worth of parts WITH it.. even if the price went up $2.00 per frame AGD would still do alright, since I am sure they could buy the parts in bulk at a fraction of that. So they could either complete the process in-house OR simply provide all the parts WITH the frame and have the customers build it themselves.. if they choose. But they would not have to buy an expensive frame, then drive to another store to get parts that allow them to use the frame as it was designed.

Thumbs up for that idea Phil.

[cphilip]

Yep! While I may be capable of doing it a lot of people out there are not. And sure don't want to "learn" on a $120 Frame! In fact I am a bit nervous about it myself. And you hit the nail right on the head with the volume buy and such. And more importantly (to me and maybe others) it would be done right the first time by AGD. I'd even be willing to pay a little more myself for that.

On the lower end of the AGD Marker market, the hardest thing to sell is the grip frame the way it is. Most kids would be happy with any 45 frame on it and could care less if its Carbon Fiber or even single trigger. They just want to be able to put cool grips on it. Give it to em then I say! :rolleyes:

A lot of them do not like the slightly swept back angle of it like it is now. In the old days when markers were held more out in front it worked but now with the "tucked in" style we all play its just a bit awkward. They don't like the "feel" of it. Shouldn't cost more to change the angle and a few minor dimentions should it? Maybe I am wrong?

[manike]

Originally posted by cphilip
cost more to change the angle and a few minor dimentions should it? Maybe I am wrong?

For the Carbon Fibre grips it would require a whole new tool = expensive :(

But if AGD are going to need to do a new tool to allow double trigger frames then it might be a good idea to look at changing the whole style to a .45 frame. (again probably more money than just modifying the design of the old tool and cutting a new double trigger tool, but worth it?...)

manike

[cphilip]

Good points Manike...but it probably has to happen some day.

[manike]

100% Agreed. I was just replying to your point about cost :)

So much is never as easy or as cheap as we would like to think :(

manike

[cphilip]

Yea...I was a fraid of that. But in keeping with Tom's stated philosophy of making Old Products "New" this is a big one for the lower end Mags.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by shartley
it is odd that AGD does not supply the $4.00 worth of parts WITH it.. even if the price went up $2.00 per frame AGD would still do alright, since I am sure they could buy the parts in bulk at a fraction of that. So they could either complete the process in-house OR simply provide all the parts WITH the frame and have the customers build it themselves.

Well, assuming AGD gets a bulk discount on parts, the price for having the parts installed into an Intelliframe from the factory would drive the price up way more than $2. There would be more costs involved than just purchasing the Radio Shack bits. There's the time & costs involved in receiving the parts, stocking the parts, quality control, and assembly. Additionally, if AGD makes three 'versions' - one with the parts installed, one with parts but uninstalled, and one with no parts at all, that'll complicate things a bit more. Also, the packaging would have to be redesigned a bit, and then printed.

While I'm not against the idea, I'm just wondering how many people would actually be willing to pay more (say $10-15 as a guess) for an already pricey trigger frame.

[Ityl]

For $120 the trigger frame should include the intellifeed stuff already in and hooked up imo.

And the Classic mag has needed a make over for many many years. I think the classic mag should include a CP barrel, double trigger, and bottomline setup. Then make one with the X-chamber. Get rid of the standard feed all together and only have powerfeed. Selling prices: $275 and $315 w/ x chamber. I bet many people would buy them. And get rid of the gray bodies.

[cphilip]

Right Gunga, But Shartleys figure was just if they put them into a "do it yourself" kit along with the frame. I was the one pushing the installed by AGD angle. All good points though. Sounds like a marketing survey doesn't it? I should hope there was some "wiggle" room in the Frames price to make it an attractive option. But it remains to be seen if its feasable to do all three. Just something to chew on.

And how about the non "intelli" Intelliframe to cut the cost down to a competitive 45 aluminum frame for the non-Intelli users? What the heck would you call it? The "Dumb IntelliFrame"? Sounds like a contest brewing eh? :D

[shartley]

Gunga
I was not suggesting doing all 3 (nor would I)… if that is what you thought I meant, I am sorry. And actually the $2.00 extra cost would be for the PARTS INCLUDED version, not the shop built one. If AGD can’t buy the parts in bulk they have some SERIOUS problems. ;)

I was just tossing out ideas… to think only $2.00 more for a fully built and ready version would indeed be a bit silly….. however, let me tell you something that I have heard time and again….

“That’s awful expensive for a frame that you can upgrade yourself.” And I tend to agree, although it IS a nice frame. (Sounds a lot like what Ityl said… )

I think Cphilip’s idea of a lower priced frame for those who DON’T want to go Intelifeed, and then the standard InteliFrame for those who DO is a great idea. This offering one fairly expensive frame that some feel is WAY overpriced for those who don’t want to go Intellifeed (or are just looking for an good entry level frame), and just telling those who DO want to go Intellifeed to go get the $4.00 worth of parts themselves is an eye roller. Make both, but at a minimum provide the parts needed to make the IntelliFrame a full Intellifeed (as in a complete Kit).

As it is, selling the IntelliFrame with directions where to GET the parts needed to make it Intellifeed is like selling a motor-ready row boat for $17,000 and telling the person buying it where they can buy a $400 motor for it. $17,000 is a bit much for even the nicest row boat.. and if it only costs $400 more to be fully motorized, why not just sell it WITH the motor? And many of us hate the Fortune 500 start with the Welfare end…. AGD has always stressed doing it right, but I can assure them that the way the IntelliFrame is being sold NOW does not lend to that feeling.

Trying to kill two birds with one stone is sometimes a great thing, but it can often times be worse than throwing the two stones… in this case I think two stones would actually bring down more birds.

(Note: some revisions to this post were made on the fly because I am working AND people keep posting.. LOL)

[cphilip]

In fact I would only do it one way. Installed. And develope the less milled non intelliframe. But as an option the parts kit if you had to go to two options.

However...Lets not detract here from the real important end of the market. The beginner Mag. I mean we already know Mag owners "become" loyal right? So how can they begin if they do not Start? The makeover of the Classic Mag Marker is the thing most likely to get someone to become a "Maggot" is a real key to the future. I know the high end is crutial too but then you have to give the starting kids something that will make them chose to pay $100 more and get a Mag. And then you got em hooked. 90 plus percent of em I bet.

I mean look at Kingman Spyders. You can buy all kinds of colors, styles, flashy stuff and rods popping out the back for no reason but all in all the darn thing is the same darn gun! Inside its the same old Spyder it always was!!! But it sells. Heck if you want to go crazy you can put a moving thing that looks like a back block on a Mag and it realy does nothing but move and half the kids out there will drool over it! I mean thats what Kingman did!

I am not suggesting going that far but a make over is needed to address the simple things to get the kids to consider them before buying a Spyder or something. Thats real important too. And I think its the 45 frame that will start that process. But what the heck do I know! :confused:

[Chris]

WGP is including carbon fiber 45 frames on their 2k2 cockers. As I recall, AGD and WGP used to use the same frames, why not rekindle that old relationship and buy the frames off of WGP? They have everything you need to make them work already I bet.

-Chris

[cphilip]

OK Chris...now you go tell the Boss! ;)

[steveg]

Just looked at the intelliframe pictures again.
unfortunately, the cost savings in machine time
would be almost irrelevant.

[cphilip]

Oh I highly doubt that. A lot of material is being removed in a meticulous manner verses not having to do it. Lathe and set up time per unit should be significant. I think! Otherwise how can Dye and Benchmark do it? Just guessing though.

But again I did not mean to focus too much on that particular idea as so much as the other two.

[BlackVCG]

The way I've seen customers react to the Intelliframe is they don't want to buy it because they don't want the "intelli-feed". I do everything to convince them that the frame is purely mechanical and the intellifeed parts don't even come with the frame. It's up to the user to go out and buy the parts. That tends to change their thoughts and make them consider the intelliframe more so than they did before.

The way I see it is I'm sure AGD could go out and get all of the parts for about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost we pay for them if we go to Radio Shack. But the price in the frame isn't going to increase by that amount. It will increase probably by $10 because now AGD has to stock the parts, package them, etc.

The other problem that I see as being the main problem with including the parts is that now AGD has other parts to keep in stock to go out with the intelliframe. If for some reason Radio Shack is backordered on the switches, then AGD has to wait to get them until they can ship the I-Frame. We've already seen this with the 90 degree Warp adapters. I'd hate to see the I-Frame being shipped with a coupon to send in when the AGD gets the roller switches back in stock, or something to that effect.

Now, granted AGD does include some things with their products that they shouldn't be, like plastic elbows with vertical feed and warp mainbody guns, :rolleyes: but I really don't see it as being advantageous to include the intellifeed parts with the frame. It'd be interesting to see how many people ACTUALLY intellifeed their hopper or revy with the I-Frame. I think most people just buy the frame because they know that upgrade option is available with the frame and mainly because it has the shortest trigger pull out of any of the .45 frames for the Mag.

I think it would be better to make an "Intellifeed Kit". Sell it in the online store and make the kit include the high quality plug used on the E-Mag interlink cable, but with exposed wire ends to solder to the switch, the roller switch, screws and nuts. Sell it seperately and make it an upgrade option for the frame with a slight discount if you get it with the frame.

This way you're not holding up shipping on ALL I-Frames if some of your parts go out of stock and you're still offering an AGD kit for the intelliframe. Basically a plug and play setup. I don't see the price on the I-Frames going down simply because that is a difficult frame to machine. It goes through a lot of machining steps and has a high quality polished finish on the nickel and gloss black frames. If AGD wants to make a cheaper frame for customers that is .45 style without the intellifeed compatibility, make it out of carbon fiber and make it the stock frame on Minimags and Automags.

[steveg]

If you machined none of the material out of the center
of the grip yes, you would be right but it would make
for a heavier grip. the Intelli leaves metal behind,
that I suspect is machined away on the benchmark and dye's.
And It would be a Machining Center (milling machine)
not a lathe that is used.

Most stuff like this starts out as a plate of metal
bolted to a 4 sided "tombstone" on a Horizontal machining
Center and several parts are cut from the same plate.

[gmag]

I think those are good ideas. Change the trigger frame for the classic and include the parts for the intelli. It might cost a little right now, but it will pay itself off in the long run. Remember, today's players prefer cosmetics over functionality.

[cphilip]

Good points Black. Include a "kit' option. Simple solution.

As to the cost of not milling it in if I am not mistaken Tom himself justified the high cost of the Intelliframe because of all the extra milling required.

[Quote from Tom]...No possible chance of a 10-20 dollar price reduction, these things cost to damn much to make. They take almost 25 minutes to machine out of a solid lump of aluminum and make a pile of chips bigger than the block.

You will find that here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12551&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

So could one surmise from that statement that it would lessen the milling time and so the price then. I would. Perhaps could even be cast?

[HoppysMag]

1) Make a Carbon Fiber Single Trigger 45 frame for the Classic, Auto and Mini and ditch the old style Carbon fiber grip that doesn't take 45 grips.

Great idea..... but while we are at it lets make them double triggers! i would pay more for a product i know was made exactly for my gun. by such great people as tom!!!

[Drizit]

you know i'd go out and buy a CF 45 double trigger frame as an upgrade for my gun. i'm planing on making an aluminum one when i have time but i'd spend some coin to get somthing i can use in a tourniment for the time being since i wouldn't have to cut the gard. also if you were going to make new CF frame double would be your best bet, when was the last time you saw a new spyder with a single trigger (not the EM1 i'm talking entery level.)

[OldSchoolMag]

I agree with Chris about buying the parts off of WGP if possible for the 45 stock frames. It would be a nice feature, and would increase the upgradability of the frames instead of limiting it to those Smart Parts wooden grips that you see so often.

Also, I think that the NON-Intelliframe frames would increase buying outstandingly because of the price reduction. And try the same thing with the Z-Grips that were rumored to be coming out with I-Frame capabilities. I'm sure $100 for a sweet Aluminum Z-Grip without I-Frame will be more profitable than a $120-30 Z/I-Grip.

Also, with the new loaders coming out that will supposedly make I-feeding obsolete, what's the point of producing extinct technology anymore?

OSM

[steveg]

[Quote from Tom]...No possible chance of a 10-20 dollar price reduction, these things cost to damn much to make. They take almost 25 minutes to machine out of a solid lump of aluminum and make a pile of chips bigger than the block.

If it takes 25 min to do the ENTIRE grip than the area for
the limit switch is just a tiny part of it

[cphilip]

Its the need for all the mass in the right place that makes it be milled out of a solid block in the first place is my understanding. And carefully done as well. What we are proposing may indeed be a castable frame with just milling to clean up the cast marks if those anchor places were not nessicary for the switch and such. I dunno we will have to hear the whole story I guess right?

But that still doesn't explain why Benchmark and Dye can beat the cost so much with their frames right? Surely whatever technology they used could be employed to make one to AGD specs as a lower cost. Thats all I am saying. Its not nessicary to take straight from the Intellifeed to make a AGD 45 aluminum frame. Maybe that reference is the problem here. So lets just call it a 45 AGD Aluminum frame low cost design and work from that point of perspective.

[MikeCouves]

I agree with cphillip on the way Spyder sells their stuff. You do see alot of Spyders out there don't you? That is due to all the prettyness. I know that because that's what I thought at first when I was buying my first gun. My friend got his Minimag and I thought it was UGLY. I got my Spyder and thought it was so much better because it looked better, had a double trigger and was all nice and shiny. But it didn't take long for me to realize that mags were so much better than Spyders. So then I got my own mag :D.

I don't like my stock carbon fiber grip frame at all, it's true it doesn't feel right and makes my arm really sore because it is angled so far back. I don't want a Zgrip and I don't want a crappy old DYE frame, so the I-Frame fits the boat.

I think AGD can give the mag a slight makeover. I am not talking like a Spyder looks over performance makeover, I am just talking stuff like this.


Stock Body Powdercoating (Like nice fades and solids that are eye catchy)
45 Carbon Frame (They are going to normally get rid of that anyway)
Option: If you buy a PF mag, you get a coupon for a discount on an I-Frame or Warp (This encourages people to buy another AGD Product)


If mags looked alot nicer but still held the quality of AGD and it's service, I think there would be more mags out there.

The Emag was an EXCELLENT idea. With all those people going over to electro's everyone was just going over to their local store and picking one up, without even knowing how good they were, it just mattered that it had a "mouse click" trigger. When I am older and have more money I will get an Emag, not an Angel, not a Bushy, none of that wuss stuff. I know that the Emag will be great quality and rugged.

I love the feeling that I can count on AGD to have a good product that is reliable and made to the right specifications. I like that feeling...and it's here to stay.

[cphilip]

Good post Mike. Beauty sells but quality keeps em coming back.

[steveg]

My knowledge of casting aluminum is limited, but for any
accuracy in a casting, it normally is done in a permenant
mold, they are very expensive and need to be repaired often.
The supporting machinery is big and expensive.
other options are sand casting, that is not very accurate
unless the sand is machine moulded.
for the ultimate in casting there is vacuum investment casting,
an expensive variation on lost wax.
So casting would be suited to larger quantities.

As to what Dye and Benchmark do I'm guessing but I'd imagine
that they make their frames more or less exactly
the same as AGD.

There are a lot of things that determine how much a machined part costs.

The material and the quantity that you buy at one time
How accurate you want the part made
How many you make
How much profit you want

There are differant types (alloys) of aluminum and each
type costs more or less (did you know that soft drink cans
are almost pure aluminum, very soft)

All (ok most) CNC machines in good condition are similarly
accurate so it comes down to how fussy you are in setup,
changing of worn tools,how often do you measure,and
how many parts do you throw away.
Also, some cnc machines are frightningly fast,
others are frightningly slow. you pay by the hour.

The more you make,the more economical it becomes.
It is common practice in the manufacturing business
to group similar parts into "families" dye and benchmark make a lot
of grips for a lot of different markers, these can be done
on the same machines, fixtures,tooling,material,inspection
etc. It should be said that NOTHING is comprimised by doing
this.

Profit, thats between Tom and his accountant

[Snooky]

I think the mags looks need to be updated in a big way. All other companies use flashy colors to lure people to buy thier guns and it works and well. I would love to see stock mags with colors. I very much hated the grey body on my mag so i spray painted it black. now i know agd makes black bodies but i wasnt going to buy one just so it would be black. But i think the black bodies should be standard on the mag instead of the ugly grey body.

The plastic frame and grips on the automag is also a big turn off. I still have mine but thats only because i dont have 50-120 dollars to get a nice metal one with a double trigger. However i noticed that nice 20 dollar metal frame in the store and im gonna pick one of those up just so i dont have that ugly plastic one any more. Including Rubber grips would be a big step forward too. I mean does any other gun still have plastic grips on it?

I love the idea of an i-frame without the milling in the center. its like looks and performance for a lower price.

I love my mag but these kind of things that could be included for a bit more would really appeal to people just coming into the sport. I think colors is really important to get peoples attention. like i love the emags that are faded and colored the look so awesome. For the color alone i went and looked at them.

Now everyone that owns a mag loves it to pieces as i do but these things could help lure new customers. What could be better than a cool gun that looks and shoots equally as well!

[AGD]

Ball beakage first (getting close now) cosmetics second. We ARE working on it. Please stand by.

AGD

[giant1515]

I've seen it mentioned to run with a carbon fiber 45 frame, maybe get it from WGP or something. I recall from my cocker research that the stock cocker frames tend to break. Before I bought my mag I spent a lot of time on some cocker forums and saw a lot of complaints about breaking cf frames. AGD is about quality, and I was wondering if the reputation of a shabby 45 frame would follow into the products if they use the one from WGP or build their own.

Personally, the grip frame is why i didn't buy a new stock mag. I waited on a used one that had a 45 frame on it.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Snooky
I very much hated the grey body on my mag...
The plastic frame and grips on the automag is also a big turn off.

I like the grey body. I like the carbon fiber frame also. It should have a double trigger, however. I also want performance over looks, period. But then at almost 42 I'm probably the minority.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by AGD
Ball beakage first (getting close now) cosmetics second. We ARE working on it. Please stand by.

AGD

If someone at WDP said this, they'd be labeled a heretic. :)

[pito189]

Originally posted by Miscue

If someone at WDP said this, they'd be labeled a heretic. :)

hahahahahahahah! They would be covered in love juice and feathered.

[Russ]

OK, here's my 2 cents...

Dump the plastic ("carbon fiber") frames all together. No one I know really want plastic more than aluminum (there will be exceptions)

Skip the plastic 45's. Making a new mold (or at least inserts) would be prohibitively expensive.

Make an intelli with less machining (no intellifeed feature) and put it on all AGD markers. With the increased quantities, AGD could get his supplier to lower the costs per unit.

Dump the standard feed also. Power/vert feed only.

[Drizit]

mags have just gotten down to a resonable price, putting on an aluminium frame will drive that cost back up to what it was before or perhaps even higher, however a CF .45 double trigger frame would not increase the price a badly (when you devide up the cost of the mold by a few thousand peaces) i know injection molds cost around $10,000 canadan, now say you want it paid for in 2 years, and we'll say you sell 1000 mags a year. then the price per mag will have to go up $5 that sounds a lot better then around $100 per to mill metal frames.