Help make my X-valve to be responsive

[Justus]

I bought my first Automag (Tac-One) a few weeks back from a guy on MCB. When I got it I aired it up with my GA Myth 62/3000 tank and it shot just fine, but it did not RT at all. I took it over to a friend's house (Ochsy here on AO) and we shot it some more, with his Ninja 1200psi reg and my Nitroduck 1000psi reg. Still wasn't very responsive at all, and by the time we stopped I noticed a very faint leak down the barrel. I sold my Tippmann A5 RT to get this, and I had really hoped for a RT effect. Of course, it's got an X-valve and a Level 10 bolt.

So, I ordered a parts kit from AGD, snagged a duckbill ASA with gauge, replaced the macro fitting with a new Ninja 90* swivel and got some new macroline from macrolineguy.com. I also picked up some white lithium grease and some Tri-Flow oil. I completely broke down the X-valve and checked all the o-rings. The powertube o-ring was a dark tan color (I remembered the very faint leak down the barrel) and the reg piston o-ring was brown. I replaced both of those, cleaned everything else, re-greased the spring coils, oiled it all up and put it back into the Tac with the silver (longest) bolt spring. It originally came with the gold spring in, but I wanted this thing to be as gentle on paint as possible. Because I had changed the powertube o-ring, I checked the carriers again. I only have four - plain, one dot, one ring, one ring & dot. Apparently there's a carrier with two rings, which is the largest, but I didn't get it. I installed the largest carrier as it seemed to move easily on the bolt. (It originally came to me with the "one dot" carrier in it). I also put in two shims because that's what the level 10 quick start video said to do.

Then I aired up. Surprisingly, my GA Myth reg was putting out about 850 to 900 psi based upon the ASA gauge. I pulled the trigger, and .. nothing. If I turned up the velocity, the trigger pin would reset (but not fire). I pulled again.. nothing. Same thing, turned up the velocity more, and the trigger pin would reset. This continued until my valve started venting out the back. I turned the velocity adjuster back to the line. More searching on AO led me to realize I was getting bolt stick. I was using the largest carrier I had, so I didn't think that was the problem. It had to be the spring. So I switched to the red spring. The same thing kept happening, but every once in awhile I could get the gun to fire. Mostly, though, it was a lot of bolt stick. So before giving it up for the evening, I swapped back to the gold spring. The gun fired just fine then, but I started noticing a leak down the barrel. The Tom Kaye troubleshooting video said to fire and hold the trigger. My leak stopped. My guess is that I had too large of a carrier installed.

So I came back to the gun today and swapped out the carrier to the next size smaller. I also took out the shims. I aired it up and the gun fires just fine - one shot at a time. The level 10 bolt works well too (tested it with a squeegee and then my pinky finger). It just still will not RT. My Nitroduck reg is putting out 1000 psi and it will not RT.

Does anyone have any ideas where I should start next with this thing to make it more responsive? The one thing I think about now is that I haven't chrono'd it (might be able to do that tomorrow). If it's shooting at a low velocity, will turning up the velocity make it more responsive?

[slider30250]

First things first, pull your on/off assembly out of your valve and make sure you have the RT on/off in there, if it's the ULT on/off then it won't be very reactive at all, if it is the ULT then order the E-mag RT on/off, your mag will RT great with that on/off in there. Next give your carrier o-rings some more time to break in, it took mine about 14 cases to fully loosen up and work flawlessly. After that my X-valve would RT at will. Your on the right track by using the gold spring. The RT effect is in direct relation to the difference in bolt spring tension vs input pressure, the larger the difference the greater the RT effect.

[Frizzle Fry]

Slider put that very well, but the one thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is just how you were pulling the trigger... Dump 1200 PSI into an X-Valve and it's hard to keep it from RTing, but with 950psi (what I generally run) you've got to be kind of delicate with the trigger to get the full effect.

[OPBN]

You mention the trigger not resetting properly when you put it back together. One thing I have noticed is that the field strip screw tightness can really effect things. Too tight or too loose and the valve may have issues resetting properly. When I am putting my Mags back together after cleaning, I usually assemble everything and put the valve in just so that it is barely tight. I then air up the marker and tighten it until the trigger resets, tighten just a hair more and leave it. It seems to make a pretty big difference and something new Mag owners arent often used to having to deal with.

[Justus]

Thanks for the replies! I'll try to respond in order...

I do not have a ULT on/off. (I have compared mine vs. Ochsy's ULT to know for sure.)

When I bought it, the guy said he had played with it about 5 to 10 times. I have no idea how much paint was shot through this thing, but I do not think it would be more than 10 cases. I did change the carrier o-ring, but even when I first got the gun with the original carrier o-ring in there it didn't RT. If it's break-in, then that could very well be it.

I'm getting 1000psi from my Nitroduck reg and still will only get the occasional 2-shot. When I tested it out with Ochsy a couple weeks ago, I used his Ninja 1200psi reg and it still wouldn't RT except the occasional 2-shot. This was before I broke it down, cleaned and oiled everything though. I've tried pulling extremely lightly on the bottom of the trigger, and also on the top of the trigger right where the pin sits. Still not much difference.

As far as the field strip screw, I just put that in finger-tight. I'll try adjusting the tightness this evening to see if that makes a difference. When the trigger pin wasn't resetting, it was when I had the silver or red spring installed. When I turned up the velocity, the pin would click back into the reset position. That was all solved when I installed the gold spring again.

[cadams]

I think I have that same on/off - its the one that came in Xvalves before they started including ULTs standard. It has that same gold, squared shape but a solid, thicker on/off pin? Like this:

http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/images/product/thumbnails/sm_108.jpg

It wasn't until I gave up on RT that a year later it just sort of happened on its own. So I think break in has alot to do with it. I never measured the actual output on my reg. but is supposed to be 800psi.

[Frizzle Fry]

its the one that came in Xvalves before they started including ULTs standard.

...I wasn't aware that they'd ever done that :confused:

[MingusX]

Change the on/off pin to the shorter E-mag on/off pin or shave a little bit of the one you got to make it shorter and it probably rt fine.

The length of the rt on/off pin is .750
The length of the E-mag on/off pin is .712

[Justus]

...I wasn't aware that they'd ever done that :confused:

Me either. The AGD web store still lists the ULT separate. I don't really want the ULT, as I don't mind the heavier pull and would really like the reactivity.

I do notice that the AGD web store sells various lengths of the On/Off pin. The .750 is listed for the X-valve, and the .712 for the Emag, but there are a bunch of other lengths that just say "RT". At this point I'm betting that my valve just needs a longer break-in period, especially since I put a new powertube carrier o-ring in it. But, could shaving the On/Off pin really increase reactivity?

[Ando]

But, could shaving the On/Off pin really increase reactivity?
Yes

[maniacmechanic]

Change the on/off pin to the shorter E-mag on/off pin or shave a little bit of the one you got to make it shorter and it probably rt fine.

The length of the rt on/off pin is .750
The length of the E-mag on/off pin is .712

Get a pair of calipers & 4 or 5 on off pins , then start playing with lengths , some valves will want a different length , shorter usually means faster , as you can set up the ROF with pin length , I've actually set up on/off's diff , 1 for day play ( lots of RT ) & 1 for night play ( will only shoot semi ) 10 seconds you can change the on/off

[sjrtk]

Like they said on/off pin makes a huge difference. Also not all valves want the same thing, my X has a .712 and I can RT at will. but my ReTro with a .712 didn't RT well, with a .728 it RT's great. I am using the same tank, body, ect. with both valves both have level 10's tuned up right. They are just different.

[Justus]

I haven't changed my on/off pin yet, but I did take my gun out this afternoon for some testing. I loaded up my Q-loader with some Nelsplat paint and put on my 68/45 Nitroduck with about 1500 psi left in it. The temp outside was 32 degrees, but my gun, tank and paintballs were all inside. After I got everything loaded up, I walked out on my front porch to take some shots at a nearby tree.

The first shot I took went about 10 feet. Everything else shot fine, it seemed. I could shoot pretty quick in a semi-auto fashion, but no RT at all. At one point I attempted to RT by just lightly pulling on the trigger, and the first shot fired but the second shot seemed to just get stuck - my trigger, I mean. The sear pin wouldn't fully reset up against the trigger, and when I tried pulling it again I couldn't fire at all. (This shouldn't be happening, even if my X-valve doesn't RT, right? What's going on here?)

So, I took my tank off and went inside. I adjusted the velocity up a little and then went back outside and put my tank back on. Pop! Things started working fine again - in semi-auto only. So I fired a bunch of quick shots, until I noticed half a paintball fly out my barrel. I had a chop. I've got a level 10 bolt (with the gold spring) and I'd only been outside in the cold about 10 minutes total, so I don't know why I got a chop. Luckily I caught it right away and didn't continue shooting. I took everything inside and cleaned it up. I took the next paintball out of the breech and noticed that it now had about 1/3 of the previous paintball's shell wrapped and stuck around it. The only paint I found was right at the back of the barrel, in the breech, on the tip of the bolt, and in the lower part of the q-bow feed magazine. (That's what led me to believe it was a legitimate chop.)

I realize these problems are minor, but if I experienced any of them in a game I would be toast. Anyone got any ideas of where to start troubleshooting?

[XM15]

It seems you have tried just about everything except one. I would go back to your friend that you know has a RT on/off that RT's and stick it in your valve. If your valve starts RTing then stick your RT on/off in his and see if his gun has the same issues your does with it. This will tell you if its your RT on/off thats the problem or something else and doesn't cost you anything. My guess from your description of what its doing is the on/off pin could be slightly bent thats why its hanging up and not restting or RTing even when running 1200 psi into it.

[Justus]

I sent Ochsy a text this morning right about the time you posted - he only has a ULT, not a regular RT on/off. Bummer.

[athomas]

It sounds like your setup is experiencing a tiny bit of bolt stick. Always tune the level 10 without any shims installed. That way you avoid accidentally introducing a shim induced leak down the barrel. These shim leaks can be stopped by using a carrier size that is too tight and will cause bolt stick issues. These often occur when the gun sits for a while and the first shot will be at a lower velocity. To prevent this from happening, always use the largest carrier size that does not cause a leak when no shims are installed. Always use the same white powertube carrier oring in each carrier that you try. Its the inner diameter of that oring that you are adjusting.

The spring that you use depends on the air pressure in the front chamber, which depends on the barrel setup you are using. Each gun setup is a bit different so you will have to determine the best spring for your gun. The proper spring should allow you to shoot at about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun starts to shoot at. If you desire a velocity of 280fps and the gun starts to cycle at 260fps with the red spring, then it is the proper spring for your setup. If the red spring does not allow the gun to start cycling until 275fps, then you will need to use the gold spring to allow consistent operation at 280fps. If the gun starts to cycle at 240fps with the red spring, then you will probably want to try the silver spring and see at what velocity it starts to cycle.

If you want to simulate a shorter on-off pin, install a couple of shims in between the two halves of the on-off assembly.

The retro valve reactivity will never be the same as a Tippman reactive trigger. It was not designed that way. To maximize the ease of achieving reactivity, pull the trigger near the top. That way it has more reactive force pushing against your finger.

[ochsy]

Justus we can still swap parts. I can still rt like crazy even with my ult. I loaned my tank that has the ninja reg but it will be easy to get back.

[Justus]

Got your text, and it sounds good, Ochsy. Let's shoot for Wednesday afternoon. I'll bring my Nitroduck tank (will need a fill), my Chrony and all my parts.


If you want to simulate a shorter on-off pin, install a couple of shims in between the two halves of the on-off assembly.
Very good to know!

[Justus]

Alright, here's an update after teching the gun awhile with Ochsy today:

After swapping valves, and then swapping on/offs, and re-tuning my Level 10 with a larger carrier, we've determined a couple things. First, my problem with the sear not resetting after a shot was probably due to bolt stick at the end of the shot. I had previously used a larger carrier when tuning the Level 10, but got a leak down the barrel and immediately switched to a smaller carrier. I probably should have just oiled the gun, because I went back up to the larger carrier today with no problems, and did not have the sear reset issue afterwards.

Second, my RT failure lies in my on/off or the on/off pin. Swapping to Ochsy's ULT caused my gun to rip. When I pull my on/off out of the valve, the pin is usually left behind, stuck in the o-rings. Everything is just so tight with the on/off assembly. The pin measured 0.746". When I put a couple Level 10 shims inbetween the two halves of my on/off assembly, I was able to pull off a few 2-shots and 3-shots, but they were pretty slow.

My solution: slowly dremel down the length of my on/off pin to see if that helps reactivity. If not, then acquire a ULT. I'd rather have a heavier trigger pull with reactivity, but if I can't get it then I'll take a reactive hair-pin as a consolation.


(By the way, that ULT with 4 shims really rips! It's like, "Oops! I just fired off 10 shots." lol)

[ochsy]

I think it was more like a mini gun :headbang: wish I had my ninja 1200 :wow:

[Justus]

I broke out the dremel this evening and put on a super-fine gray grinding wheel. Then I went at my on/off pin. First I took it from 0.746" down to 0.735" and tried it out. It was like night and day. My X-valve RT'd very nicely, though it still seemed a little on the slow side. (I also still got one chop, and heard a small leak down the barrel after shooting about 30 paintballs.)

So I cleaned everything up and then went back to the dremel. This time I took the pin down to 0.724" and reassembled. Boom! It went off. Two and three shots were easy, and I could go very high on the trigger to rip off 20 and 30 shot bursts. Not once did the bolt or sear stick. Very nice! :clap:


I still have a leak down the barrel, though, and now it's definitely more noticeable. The leak would trail off and stop when I shot and held the trigger down, and would also stop if I barely pressed on the trigger without firing. I tried 4 drops of oil in the valve but the leak didn't stop. This means I have too large of a carrier on my Level 10, right? Or maybe a shim or two extra in the Level 10? (I have 2 shims in.) It was about 7* outside when I was doing my test firing. :rolleyes: So maybe I should just try more oil.

[athomas]

Yes, sounds like a level 10 shim issue. Take them out. You shouldn't ever need them.

[Justus]

After searching for this thread to reference it to help out Enhander, I realize I never posted an update. I ended up taking out the shims in my powertube and had no more leaks whatsoever. I'm now a fan and advocate of the no-shim-method for tuning a Level 10. ;)