Need opinions, need input. The state of paintball.

[breg]

Ok Cats and Kittens,
We all know that paintball is in a slump. The fields are gettign smaller, attendance is dropping off at major events, fewer new playeres are comming, and fewer still older players are returning.
We all have thousands upond thousands of reasons, theories, and points of conjecture as to why. I'm not entirely intrested in those at this point in time.
What I want to know:
1. What can be done in your opinion. I do not care how outlandish it is, but please, please, please do not let your resonpses stray into finger pointing and negativity. We get that too often as it is.
2. What is bieng done right as far as paintball goes. I realize that soemthign I may really enjoy about paintball is something that someone else might find detestable. Opinions cannot be wrong; only disagreed upon. The intent is not to start a debate about what is right and wrong, but rather to form some idea as to where the tastes are laying.
3. What is not right about paintball. Please don't say something like "Raming sucks 'nuff said." That is not really solving anything. Also see #2 above.
4. What you are willing to compromise upon when it comes to the necessiary changes that need to be doen to revamp the sport.

Thanks, Breg

[sjrtk]

The major problem IMHO is the kids (age irrelevant) who come in to the sport with (fill in which ever brand) gear who cheat, overshoot, yell at reffs, and cuss out people who are playing legit. These people are the ones who seem to show up and drive people out of the game then leave as soon as they do as much damage as possible. the regulars at the field were i play are pretty good about self policing these kinds of guys out of there and helping the kids who are just starting have fun. We still manage to play hard but we still manage to take it easy on the new guys. I don't know what it is but paintball players seem to be the worst thing that has happened to paintball.

In short we need to relax at the field and remember we are ALL THERE TO HAVE FUN. Let the new guys have the same fun as the rest of us who are "better" and don't just pound them out of the game.

[breg]

Agreed. Refs/fields need to garner some back bone and not tolerate the jerkish big spenders.

[dahoeb]

In addition to the devolving attitudes, I think the overall piss-poor state of the economy is also playing a big role in the downturn of the game. Many people (including myself) are very weary about throwing hundreds or sometimes thousands of dollars at something as expendable and relatively unimportant as paintball. Unfortunately paintball isn't like soccer or basketball where all you really need is a $5 ball.

When the economy shows some legitimate stability, then we might see the market grow as people quit hording their cash. People that left the sport might be willing to come back in.

As far as the attitude problem, who knows if that will ever change. Thats something that starts at home with the parents and how these people are raised.

How do we deal with the attitude problem on the field? simple, hold everyone accountable and don't tolerate their shenanigans. Like in football or baseball, the refs are the ultimate authority, and if you argue, you get ejected. cya! adios! later! Unfortunately, we don't see it as much as we should because a lot of refs are real young and don't want to deal with confrontation, so instead of acting as a supreme authority, they act like camp counselors.

[bound for glory]

but paintball "for fun" has'nt been in "vouge" for years. back when i started(1985) you could have a laugh. now, try to bring a girl on the field...or a new guy with no clue. and the fake tough guys. and the guns that shot hot. or the ramping idiots. or the wipers. or the just plain mean. its all there, on any given day. the first field i played on, combat survival games in little gap, pa., was run by a former marine sargent. you broke the field rules, or pissed him off, you were housed. but he did'nt care if you came back. he owner the land. and he owned his own construction business. the people who came back did so because it was a great field, and it was WELL POLICED! thats a damn rare thing these days.
paintball **** the bed when people started making big money on it. when it became "bad business" to kick someone out for breaking the rules. when we started talking about "pro players"(that one always makes me cring). when everybody stopped thrashin' togeather and having a good time, reguardless of what kinda gun you used.

[breg]

Ok, so what I am getting so far, is that it is more about the business than about the sport/hobby. I do miss the old feeling of fraternity (spelling sucks) we used to get even 7 or 8 years ago.
So, we need to focus less on the one guy spending 1000 dollars and focus more on the 10 guys that might spend 200?
Also, the other thing that keeps popping up is ramping. Is a return to straight semi in a rec ball setting (and by rec ball I am refering to anything that is not an organized tournament) somethgn that might help?

[pbjunky99]

With the markers that are out today, I dont think going back to semi will fix that much, heck with a 12.5 ramp you will get hit less than with a semi player that can walk a trigger at faster rates. I do think that the fields needs to keep better check on there turny players that decide to play rec ball with the birthday parties or church groups(those are the 2 biggest group types that come out to my field). I think the regular players need to relise that this sport needs there help to grow and going out there with there high-end markers blasting everyone isn't helping.

I myself try to get that point across to the players at the field I play at but there mind set is much diffrent. They feel that if they want to come play on THERE field they better bring there A game. All they want to do is punish the new players and don't care about anyone else. The field owner tries to keep them in check but he dosn't want to scare off the regular busness due to poor turnouts for the past few years.

So in short, the players(not all of them) need to take it upon themselves to help make paintball a better experiance for the newer players.

[breg]

Agreed about the ramp ban... I can actually shoot quicker in smei than the 12.5 bps that PSP will allow you to ramp to.

One theory I have is a return to a bigger game format. Say more of a woods ball style where there is more involved in the game than just Getting into a bunker and unloading paint into a lane, and waiting for your front man to bunker some luckless newbie.

The biggest feed back I am getting is to limit the ROF against rec players/rentals.

[OPBN]

I think a lot of the blame rides on the lack of fields, as well as the lack of variety in the fields. I like playing, but get bored quickly with small fields or ones that don't change very often. It's a catch 22. Most of the fields that have decent variety, are also FPO and it runs $100+ for a day of play. Most of the BYOP fields are usually smaller and not making enough money to pay for improvements.

Distance of fields is a big issue for me right now as well. Where I'm at, it's at least an hour to the closest field and at least 2 hours to a good field.

[Smokee_2_7]

I have not played a game of paintball in over two years.

I began playing in 1996 on my buddies' farm with a couple friends and some cheap pump guns. We had the time of our lives. When I graduated high school and 'the group' began to fragment, I began to play at my local field. It was a blast. I remember feeling compelled to "practice" my rapid fire shooting with my first Automag. At that point, you could tell the experienced player apart from the newer players based on the sound their guns made. The experienced guys' guns would sound one of two ways: a single 'pop' followed by someone calling 'HIT', or short controlled bursts of rapid fire from mechanical 'mags and 'cockers that would STILL make many of the players on the field drop their jaws in disbelief. :wow:

If a player had more than three breaks on them, then the shooter was pulled from the game as well.

The better players could easily sustain a ROF around 8-10 bps, but they were not often pulled for over shooting. The rules of the game favored individuals that were more disciplined.

The first Angel I saw ( V6 . . ) at the field belonged to a locally known tournament player. I did not see his 'gun before the first game we played. The marker had a bit more of a 'crack' to it, but there was no noticeable difference in ROF. After the game is saw it and realized that THAT was the 'Angel' we had been seeing on the internet. This player had no more breaks on people that day than usual - - - he knew the meaning of 'fire control'.

A couple years later, I saw my first of what I'd later learn to call 'AGGlets'.
Some whiny DB kid whose parents had more money than sense had bought him one of the new Angels with the LCD screen. . . . It wasn't exactly light years ahead of the other electronic guns that we were used to seeing, but it sure did cost a lot more. During the games that day he kept getting pulled for over shooting. He was shooting about three times the paint of the rest of us, and would infrequently get the drop on someone. Five to seven breaks on someone usually mean they were :cuss:, and he was was pulled from the game screaming on how it wasn't his fault that they got hit so many times - - - they were playing on, or wiping, or to slow, or ran right in front of him. . .ANYTHING other than accept responsibility that he couldn't control that 'machine gun'. Within six months the field has lost a few semi regular players. Many of them cited the behavior of the aforementioned player as a deciding factor for them to go play renegade ball elsewhere. They player wasn't banned because every weekend his parents dropped a couple hundred bucks at the field for the rest of us to baby sit him. He stuck around for about a year, ran a bunch of players off, then quit playing paintball.


I learned to reff, I learned about the paintball business. I began playing some local tournanments. I moved away, and fit right in with one of the local fields in my new town. I ran the field, ran the pro shop. I encouraged over protective mothers to let the little boys ( 15-16 yrs old, in some cases!) wipe the dirt off their own faces when they came off the field. We organized and hosted tournaments, and we competed in other events. As everyone knows, guns got faster and faster. 'Cheater boards' entered our vocabulary. "Ramping" was another word for the old shocker 4x4's 'turbo' mode. By 2005 I was pretty much burned out. I got sick of playing and watching people wipe. I got sick of getting bunkered by the same guy I had just shot out, and catching 3 -4 in the head point blank while he was at it. I noticed that I spent more time being angry while I was playing than I spent having fun.

And, in the middle of that, the SP incident began. Smaller companies that we loved doing business were stopping gun production. Cheap electros flooded the market. This was great for spoiled punks of slightly less affluence. Some days at work I would notice that there were more Agglets than 'normal' people.

As was stated before, these kids ( yes I'm sorry. . . MOST of them are under the age of 18) tend to follow a set cycle. Discover paintball, get wealthy parents to give them the best of everything right off the bat. They had little to no self discipline. They over shot. They pushed the rules. They generally :cuss: 'd people off. Their parents payed the shop bills and my paycheck. These players would go from paintball 'zero' to self-proclaimed 'hero' in about six to eight moths. Within a year and a half they were done with the sport. As soon as one got out of paintball, he was replaced by two more. It got to the point that, if you were over 21, you were either someones father, worked at the field, or were (according to the agglets) some N00b with a private group that really should let the agglets play just ONE game with them. . just for fun. . .

By 2005 I'd had enough. I'd put too much of my time and resources into a sport that I felt was headed downhill. I finished my degree and started work in 'the real world'. Maybe once a year I'd go out with a couple friends and play some walk on ball. To many people, "overshooting" was more than 6 breaks, and there was no real penalty for it. You could tell that, with some, tempers were boiling from time to time.

We'd have fun, but my sorta- celebrity status at the field would inadvertently lead to my other pet peeve- - equipment problems. New players are obviously exempt- - but if you've been playing paintball for a year and own your own equipment- - know how to chronograph and maintain your marker. Don't track me down in between games 'cause "he's that guy that can fix everything". However, this is my fault and is not indicative of the problems with the paintball world.

Anyway, I haven't played since 2008 and it's not because of cash flow or economy. I have, however, kept up with the what's happening in the paintball world- - through my buddy that still owns the field, and through weekly lurkings on AO, MCB, etc.. I see many of my old paintball buddies regularly. Out of 10-15 guys, two play semi- regularly.



Now, I said all that to say this: Based off my own experiences and the experiences of my friends, here's what I think should be done / is being done right.

1. Slow the game back down.

I feel this is already happening. Decreasing ROF limits in tournament circuits is a good thing, IMO. I'd like to see it slower at the field level, for sure. Get rid of ramping. Period. Semi only, as fast as you can pull the trigger. IF you can eliminate ramping and the return of the 'cheater' software, great. If not, go for the hopper. Ban any hopper that will feed over a certain rate: Rotor? love it, but buh-bye. Stick an old VL revolution on your EGO or whatever in semi only.

Fields rental packages: Bring back the pump rentals! When you're booking a church group, give them a lower cost option to have everyone play pump. They will have more fun, I promise. I've played with several people through their first pump games, and the reports have been overwhelming positive. The one negative comment has always been " I'd love to get my own pump, but there's not enough people to play pump with to justify me buying one."

Hold players accountable. Bring back overshooting rules for rec play. People don't actually enjoy getting lit up like a christmas tree, I promise. Stop it. If players will not learn self control and discipline, then they need to go back to lazer tag. Or nerf.


2. Resurgence of pump play. - - what's being done right.

This is already happening- - pump divisions in tournament play, new markers on the market. Five years ago there wasn't much of a pump option between 'plastic' and a nice phantom. People were not willing to take a $350 plunge on a phantom when they didn't know if they would ever have pump only games available. The azodin pump, the Check-it snipers, and the return of the Trracer are AWESOME steps in the right direction. Help people realize that they don't have to get caught up in the arms race.

Actually, This is what has me posting right now- - - I've been rebuilding my old Trracer, and getting my 'pseudo sniper ready to play. I'm thinking it might be time for me to test the waters again.



3. What's wrong.

My opinion should be obvious if you've read the whole post but for those of you just joining us, I believe that we need to focus catering to a more mature demographic. Overprivileged children have rapidly changing tastes-- - They are in and out of paintball and on to the next hobby in no time flat. The result is that you have a never ending cycle of immature players. This has shifted many peoples' view of paintball. It's now viewed more as a children's game. Bring back the game to those players that actually have to work to play. Those that play because they love it and they choose to spend their free time and money in paintball, versus those that do it 'cause they can, and will spend mommy and daddy's cash on it just as readily as they will on anything else.


Focus of improving the experience or 'fun level' versus the amount of money / time invested.


4. Compromise?

I'll compromise everything I've said if it would save the sport.

However, If people do not have fun playing a game that costs lots of money. . . . . . . . then they will not spend their money on that game. It's pretty simple. Figure out what is fun about paintball and enhance that. Figure out what is not fun about paintball, and minimize that. All of the above is my opinion ( and the opinion of others I've talked to) of what is fun and what is not.

[Old School 626]

Along with the posts above I add this nugget.

I'm an "older" player, mid 40's to be exact. I started playing in the late 80's and have taken breaks from the sport at least once. I play 4-8 times a year now with this sport competing with golf, mountain biking and various ocean sports competing for my free time and my money. I would play more paintball if so much time was not spent waiting for the field to get their act together between games, to get us all thru the chrono line, give us the safety breifing and figure out where we're playing next and then to have some zit faced kid yelling to get us to hurry up after he/the field took 30 minutes to get us our next field.

[breg]

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm a bit older myself... 30. Basically I saw where we were, where we are, and where we are heading... I just want to take my kids paintballing one day.

And, for the record... I agree with 99.99% of everythin said so far. The biggest point I have seen in this thread on here and other forums is athat we need to start policing ourselves.

....and...

To stop treating the new players like mobile targets.

That is the biggest thing I have noticed across the boards.

[155mmPaladin]

I play with mostly Cockers of various types and now my newly aquired Emag. I'm just a recball player whos used to play alot of scenario games and tried a couple of local tourneys. Against guys with their $1200 EGO's and being almost 40 I can run faster than most half my age and hold my own better than most of the tourny players I find at the field.

Age is the factor IMHO about these new players. I can play down to the level of a first timer not get aggressive and enjoy the game. Younger kids that have all of mommy and daddy's money and sling paint with no reguard of who the opponet is puts a bad taste in new players mouths. They think it's fun to shoot up noobs that decide to enter their turf. Thats one of the main reasons I like going to a field, to put the young punks in check. I come out with a maker whose design is over 10 years old plus only shoots SEMI and they think "easy target" this will be easy. Such as today was going head to head with one of the D2 guys on the opposite team. Young, had a EGO, alot of paint, and a cockyness.......all the way to the dead box.

When I go against the noobies they don't see all the flashy markers and young players. They see a older guy with a odd operating marker system, a smile, and a non-intimidating persona. I take them out, teach them a couple of skills, and play to thier level. Then make sure they had FUN.

I don't think it's a good idea to mix the tourny guys with the birthday parties and chruch group unless the tourny players are seperated. But they all will try to stick together and where's the fun in that for the Noobies?

As for fields if the Refs allow a shooting gallery then they aren't doing their JOB! Just my .02.

[Smokee_2_7]

Along with the posts above I add this nugget.

I'm an "older" player, mid 40's to be exact. I started playing in the late 80's and have taken breaks from the sport at least once. I play 4-8 times a year now with this sport competing with golf, mountain biking and various ocean sports competing for my free time and my money. I would play more paintball if so much time was not spent waiting for the field to get their act together between games, to get us all thru the chrono line, give us the safety breifing and figure out where we're playing next and then to have some zit faced kid yelling to get us to hurry up after he/the field took 30 minutes to get us our next field.

Excellent point.*

Waiting around for disorganized staff is really not acceptable. *If a field advertises that it opens at 9 with the *first game at 10, then there better be a pretty good reason why I'm sitting on my butt waiting to play at 10:30. Especially if I'm laying more to play 'all day'.*

Not fun, and any business that aims to keep it's clientele had better learn to operate as advertised.*

Now, in the spirit of this thread, I'd like to propose a solution.

PROBLEM:
Players do not enjoy waiting for games when they should be playing.

CAUSES:
Staff does not have a plan to get players 'checked in', safety briefed, and chronographed in a timely fashion. *Delays are often caused by:
*
** * 1. Disorganized business practices.*
*I could write a book here but I'm not. *Suffice to say this rests on the shoulders of management / owners.*

** * 3. *Players arriving just before the first game's start time, and the staff's willingness to wait for those extra players.*

** * 3. Problems with one or more marker's over the chronograph. *This may be a rental fleet maintenance issue. *That needs to be addressed by management long before Saturday morning.*
Often times the chrono issue is a player with his/ hers own ( often brand new) marker. In my experience, this was more likely a player that had just bought their new brass eagle, etc. from Wal Mart the night before. *Inexperienced player*+ brand new marker ( perhaps of questionable quality) = no clue how to adjust velocity, let alone change hammer springs to lower a hot 'blowback on C02. *I've also seen countless players show up at the chrono with no means to attach their hopper to the gun and no idea how to properly load paintballs.*
This is going to happen, and should not be frowned upon. It's part of being a newbie in ANY hobby / sport. *It's also understandable and desirable that the staff wants to make sure that these new players have a good experience, and that experience relies on someone helping them out with their gear.*


Unfortunately, these problems are *often managed *to the benefit of few at the expense of many.*

SOLUTIONS

I propose that a given field make it clear in it's communication that games are planned and run on time, with no or very few exceptions. *Schedule out the whole day if you have to. Post the field schedule like a bus schedule, if that's what it takes.*

If the field opens at nine with first game at 10, *and there are ANY players ready to play, then the staff needs to have them on the field. *If that means the first game is 1v1 while there's 20 more late comers in staging, then so be it.*

It should be made clear that players with their own gear are responsible for knowing how to assemble, adjust, and use that gear. * It would be in the business's best interest to try and have staff available to help these customers, but not to essentially penalize the customers who know how be prepared for a paintball game----- are paying for a full day of play.*

I knowThis sounds harsh, but these are the things that contribute to that '30 minutes deciding what field to play'. It's VERY rare that any given group of players will UNANIMOUSLY want to play one specific field next. If the ref tries to please everyone at all times, then you have very few games that actually take place. *If games start every 20 minutes, then the people who never clean their gun, didn't bring Allen wrenches to tighten that bottom line, and just generally fail at planning will get to play less games than those that are prepared. * Eventually the unprepared players figure it out and get there on time ready to resulting on a better experience for everyone, or they are replaced on the field by other players that do. *Regardless, over time your player base becomes better and more self-reliant.*

As far as zit faced kids ( and staff in general) go..... reward them for a job well done, and be specific. Give a good ref five bucks at the end of the day and tell him why:
**" hey, I really appreciate the way you ran the games today. I know you have a lot of friends out here and that they keep pounding you with questions about gun XYZ. But I think you dod a really great job of focusing on the group and making sure we all had a good time."

When the other refs learn that lil' Johnny makes an extra $20 per day because he keeps the group moving, they will follow suit.*
Then, tell the same thing to the manager.*

If you have a bad experience, talk to the manager and tell them why-- specifically. Try to avoid generalized tirades.*

Just remember, everybody gets used to getting ******'* at. *It always does a lot more good to hear what you did right every now and then.*


Carl.*

PS. Typed, copied and pasted on my phone, hence the mysteriously gratuitous use of asterisks.

[death594]

hi there i see im probably one of the first "kid" players posting. i am 20 now and started playing in 2006-07 some where in there. so i really didnt know the good old glory days. one of the biggest things i have seen happen at my local fields is that half the staff doesnt punish anybody. one of the best games i have played this year is where i saw the worst of it and made me start thinking. here is the short version my team was doing good the whole day prity much owning the field all day. the last battle of the day comes around and it was like we were being stoned from people shooting hot. one guy next to me we were at the back of the field reinserting was getting bloody welts threw a tac vest and rags from players more than 150 feet away. when i left the field i found a ref just sitting down and told her she said " yea i know you are not the first person to tell me." WHAT THE :cuss:. yes it was a hot day and there was people using lower end markers and CO2 that i know can bounce radically on hot days but a 98 custom doesnt hold a pattern the size of a tea saucer across the field.

my ideas to fix the problem
1. as stated above tip good refs i am a lifeguard and a good comment from some one or a tip for doing a good job means alot and makes you want to do it more.

2.separate experienced players from newer players. if the more experienced playes can lower their game to play with the new guys then let them do it if not dont go near the new guys yea you can mark up alot of guys but wheres the fun in no challenge. one of my first times i played there was a guy at my local field older experienced player 30- 40 area. who had all the top of the line gear Jersey pants ego you name it he had it. it was one of the best feelings i have ever had when i got him out. late after playing some more with him later he told me he went out there with half a hopper just to shoot off the break to make people think he was playing hard. then got in stupid positions to let newer players get that "trophy" player out. i think we need more player like him in the sport. but that will be a while

3. have some thing like a frequent player card some thing so that field owners can see how much you are playing and put you with a group about your skill level and possibly give breaks on prices like buy 50 cases and get one 1/2 off and so on.

4. i agree with what other people say about marker control no one likes getting light up but you know it happens you cant call back the balls in the air. but try to get people in to shooting in bursts so one if you do hit some one their shouldnt be much at one time. one way to also get it across is remind players that it will save them paint as well. like i said though im not really for or against ramp all the markers i have owned after my 98 have had it i think its more of if the rule is semi than make sure every one is in semi and punish those who are not.

5. punish rule breakers i dont care if they did help build the field or not and if they play alot then they know the rules and the code of conduct hold them responsible for their actions.

i know i will think of more later but until then.

i know im not a good speller guy and my grammar is probably prity bad but i just got off of work with screaming children so a little slack is appreciated thank you and have a good night.

[breg]

^^ No, no... your age is not a factor... I want input from everyone that is willing to give it to me.

And you make several valid points.

[breg]

Thank you everyone for your input so far...
The things I notice it keep comming down to are as follows (bear in mind that this is also posted on AO and TechPB and MCB)

1. Price. It seems that in many cases for a day of play things are just too over priced the whole way around. I realize that fields need to make enough money to pay the staff, pay insurance, keep the fields and equipment in good repair, etc. I believe it was suggested that they offer better quality paint for the price or increase feild fees to cover.

2. De-emphasize electros. It seems that many people feel that doing away with ramping in general will not be enough. And, I for one miss the days of the good ol' Mags and Cockers. I will agree to the point that playing on a field with mechs will definately cut down on over shooting as well as over all paint consumption.

3. We need to police ourselves. That is probably the biggest one that I keep finding. Or the one that sticks out the most to me. Does this mean that we need to be able to alert the ref or field staff to a player that is habitually over shooting players or cheating? Either way it means that we have to lead by example.

4. The mixing of exp levels. No, I don't think it is fair the the green players to have 10 of them goin up agains an expierenced 5 man team. How this can be fixed... well I dunno. for one, the refs need to break up the teams to make it fair to the newer people. Just basically do like we used to do in Albuquerque..."you go up, you go down, you go up, you go down... etc." And do not be afraid to swtich a player's side. If you notice one side really hosing the the other side... pull one of the more expierenced players to the other side. That occured as well. It helped. Also, there could be dedicated practice days for your higher level players.

5. The staff needs to enforce the rules fairly for all. This is something of a hot button issue. We have all seen it. Little Johhny Paintball comes to the field with the newest paintball gun his parents can afford, usually costing more than several of the cars inthe parking lot, sets is brand new gun to the highest rate of fire possible proceeds to buy a metric butt load of paint and then overshoots every body chronos his gun right at 300, ignores hits, ignores safety rules, and then throws his weight around becuse he (his parents) has money. And the staff tolerates it because he (his parents) spend so much at the shop and on the field. This has to stop. Please don't think that I am pointing fingers because I am not. I realize that not every kid with a new high end gun is atool... just Johnny Paintball. Or they turn a blind eye to the shens from the big tourney team. The rules have to be enofrced and there have to be penalities that are applied to all who break them.

I really appriecate all the input so far. The interesting thing is that even though I have posted this on AO, TechPB, and MCB the feed back has been roughly the same. Do I miss paintball the was it was in 2002? yes. Do I harbor some grand illusion of bringing back it's heyday? Not so much. If we go back to the way things were then we went backwards. We have to go forwards. Paintball has been with us for nigh on thirty years. In that space of time it has gone form a fringe hobby using "marking pistols" intended for marking trees or cattle to a multi-million dollar industry that is played and enjoyed on every continent in many countires. From all of this we all see there are things that are wrong. We all see the things that are right. What we need to do as paintballers weather you are a rec baller, a hardcore tourney player, a tach-ed out mil simmer, Johnny paintball, or your kid brother looking timidly at his rental Tippmann; is set the example. Don't bonus ball, if you are playing against a bunch of newbs set your gun to semi or go grab that old sypder out of your gear bag, switch sides to the disadvanaged side so they will see that someone is willing to take a hit with them, or just treat the new players AND expierenced players like you want them to come back next weekend.

This is not done and is it far from over.

Keep it comming.

breg

[kobeastly]

Lots of reasons the industry is suffering though I think the main one is the economy. Entertainment is the first thing to go on a reasonable persons budget when things get tight.

I don't like the current ramping and rate of fire rules these days but that really doesn't keep me off the field.

I think some of the manufacturers may be suffering due to guns really not getting any better. A gun from a few years ago shoots the same as this years, it just looks a bit different. There really isn't any reason to go buy a new one. Other than my TPX the last 10-15 guns I've bought have been used.

I kindof agree with one of breg's points. I have an emag, viking, cyborg and a good asortment of bushies but it wouldn't break my heart at all to see paintball go back to mechanical guns being the norm. I'd love to see a purely mech league or even a single trigger league.

[OPBN]

I would play more paintball if so much time was not spent waiting for the field to get their act together between games, to get us all thru the chrono line, give us the safety breifing and figure out where we're playing next and then to have some zit faced kid yelling to get us to hurry up after he/the field took 30 minutes to get us our next field.
I was going to mention this point as well in my posting, but had limited time. Keeping the games moving is essential to keeping peoples attention, especially experienced players.

1. I don't want to sit around discussing every aspect of a game for 10 minutes that actually lasted all of 2 minutes.
2. I came to play paintball, not listen to the dbag ref who has been probably playing for less time than me regale us all with his past adventures.
3. Explain to people to that the time in the staging area is time to reload, refill etc., when the is done, than BS. Nothing chaps my butt more than to leave the staging area, go to a field to play and have the ref take a break after one short game to let 1/2 the people go back and reload because they came to the field with 1 pod of paint and 1/4 or a tank of air/co2
4. Train your staff to change things up a little and be creative. Instead of starting everyone at the same spot every single time and playing the same games, mix it up. By the same token, make sure the refs know where they are going and have an idea of what they are doing before they get there.

There's probably more, but I am probably getting redundant. The main issue is that some people drive a fair ways to play and they want to get as much playing time in as possible. I have driven 2 hours to get to a field and in the 6 hours that I was there, maybe played 8 games. Considering some of the games were terribly lopsided and ended within minutes, this is horrible.

One thing to consider, and I don't remember it being brought up, is communicating your thoughts to the owner or manager of the field. As a customer, I figure my feedback to the owner is valuable, so I freely give it. In the case of the ref taking forever to start games and bs'ing about his awesomeness, I sat with the owner for a couple of minutes after we had gotten our gear together and expressed my concerns. They actually seemed pretty receptive and did go on to explain that the ref that day was new and most of their regulars were at some show. While it didn't make the day more enjoyable, it made me wililng to come back and see what the regular refs were like and probably emphasized the importance to them of having good, well trained staff on hand no matter what. Doing this also gives you a good feel of how things may be in the future. If a field owner blows you off or is patronizing, my time there is limited as I realize they aren't interested in bettering their field or accepting input. You should also let a filed owner know when they or their staff are doing a good job. Most owners aren't out there playing, so they need input from someone else other than their refs.

[Loneassassin]

Lots of good points here. I haven't seen this one posted yet so I'll throw it in:

I think one way that the game could be improved would be to establish paint limits as a kind of norm. I'm not sure what a good standard would be, but I do think that getting away from people shooting 6 pods + a hopper per game would help level the playing field between those with limitless funding (and firepower) and those who play with a rental and/or play on a limited budget.

This would go further than rof limits or doing away with ramping, in my opinion. In my experience, playing against people ramping at 12.5 vs. 15 or even uncapped semi doesn't really ammount to much difference. The thing that remains the same is that there is typically a very high volume of paint being fired at all times on your average field. That gets expensive, because in a lot of ways you have to match the firepower of your opponents in order to compete. (unless of course, you are a lot more skilled than your opponents.)

I think that if it became a norm to only be allowed, say, 2 pods and a hopper, people could still shoot quickly if they want to, but they'd have to have some control over it. They'd be less likely to just sit in the back and pour paint downfield while their front guy goes up and bunkers all the cowering noobies.

I also think that increasing the size of fields and taking the emphasis away from filling lanes with paint would also help lower the cost of playing - and would reward players willing to use athleticism and cunning to get people out rather than raw firepower. I think this would also reduce the "intimidation" factor that new players experience. In a perfect world there would be all-pump games available to newer players at every field - but I realize that's not likely to happen.

So, for the short version - we need to take measures to lower the volume of paint being fired; to reduce the incentive for rich people to just lazily rain paint all over the field, while a lot of people struggle financially to play the game as is.

[hill160881]

Its simple and a combination of things.

Economy
Competition
Generational
Greedy field owners and companies.
Industry stagnation

The economy has been in decline since Katrina in 2005. That is when the US started shedding craft and industrial jobs. The market followed in 07/08 and things continues to get worse.

Competition from video games and the Internet combined with a lack of funds and people just stop playing paint-ball and start WOW or Call of Duty or.................

This young generation prefer less strenuous activities, they are LAZY couch potatoes.

When paint costs a field owner $15 to $30 a case, why are they selling it for $50 to $80? Greedy bastards. This gets worse with the size of the event. Look at D-day and Living Legends. Then there the SP in the industry that nearly destroy the marker market with there greed.

The industry has been wrapping the same marker internals with a different skin for years without coming out with something truly new. They use the same technology as years gone by and Hype it up with advertising.

Agglets are usually from a wealthy family in my experience, and if the sport were more affordable it would drive them out because most wealthy kids wont hang out with average income kids. There stuff is not cool enough, and they think they are better some how.(this is a wild theory)

[Smokee_2_7]

....
my ideas to fix the problem
1. as stated above tip good refs i am a lifeguard and a good comment from some one or a tip for doing a good job means alot and makes you want to do it more.

2.separate experienced players from newer players. if the more experienced playes can lower their game to play with the new guys then let them do it if not dont go near the new guys yea you can mark up alot of guys but wheres the fun in no challenge. one of my first times i played there was a guy at my local field older experienced player 30- 40 area. who had all the top of the line gear Jersey pants ego you name it he had it. it was one of the best feelings i have ever had when i got him out. late after playing some more with him later he told me he went out there with half a hopper just to shoot off the break to make people think he was playing hard. then got in stupid positions to let newer players get that "trophy" player out. i think we need more player like him in the sport. but that will be a while

3. have some thing like a frequent player card some thing so that field owners can see how much you are playing and put you with a group about your skill level and possibly give breaks on prices like buy 50 cases and get one 1/2 off and so on.

4. i agree with what other people say about marker control no one likes getting light up but you know it happens you cant call back the balls in the air. but try to get people in to shooting in bursts so one if you do hit some one their shouldnt be much at one time. one way to also get it across is remind players that it will save them paint as well. like i said though im not really for or against ramp all the markers i have owned after my 98 have had it i think its more of if the rule is semi than make sure every one is in semi and punish those who are not.

5. punish rule breakers i dont care if they did help build the field or not and if they play alot then they know the rules and the code of conduct hold them responsible for their actions.
....


Thank you for such a well thought out post!! I wish that I had been able to express myself that clearly ten years ago (if you'd like to see, look up my posts. I've been floating around here since before AGD took over the website).

It's great to see the views of someone who has discovered paintball since I've left it. After reading through your post, I can say that people are not any different now versus "then". When guys reminisce about 'the good ol' days', just remember that those memories tend to be a little. . . polarized (filtered).

There has always been the kind of player that would push the limits for whatever reason. Intentionally shooting hot has been going on forever. Often, it's not been handled properly at the field. This is something that has to change.

Death, the kind of hits you're talking about: What is their effect on a first time newbie? Would they think "ah, that's just the way it is sometimes"? NO! They don't know the difference between a 'normal' hit and a 'nasty' hit. Enough of those bloody welts on ANY first time paintballer will discourage them from coming back. Your average newbie barely has a grasp on what the FPS limit is, and no clue how that number was determined and why it's important. There is a HUGE difference between a normal paintball bruise and the 'weltzilla' acquired from a 400fps rock. All Johnny or Susie newbie knows is whether or not they had fun. If you ask them, 90% will say "sure, it was fun". Keep in mind that most people, especially young males, will stretch the truth in order to keep from being viewed as a wimp. The proof is in whether or not they come back a few weeks later.

You're correct- - - the staff has to be trained to handle situations like this, and have the cajhones to step on someones' feelings and check the gun during the game. Someone that 'mysteriously' cannot keep their marker below 285 (or whatever the field limit is) gets their 'defective' gun banned from the field until it has been 'repaired'.

Anyone caught adjusting their velocity on field should be asked to leave immediately, no refunds. Unlike 'forgetting' and lifting their goggles 'cause Robbie Newbie got really really excited and forgot, players that intentionally shoot hot are exhibiting malicious intent. They are TRYING to hurt people. You can't "forget" to NOT turn your velocity up. Often, you have to carry an allen wrench in your pocket, find some cover, and then adjust whatever reg or restrictor you happen to have. This act shows an intentional disregard for others' safety. It should be treated as such.

If a field actually enforces these rules, then your problem players either shape up, or stop playing. Either way, the games at that field just got better. Besides, nothing discourages a potential cheater better than seeing someone publicly booted from the field.

Now. Separating players based on experience levels. I hear this ( and have said this ) thousands of times.

It's a great idea. I have never been to a field that didn't say that they tried to do this.

But.

Let's say you run your own field. You're the boss. You have two referees scheduled for Saturday morning, and players are showing up. One of your refs calls in sick. You have to run the register, work the shop, and answer the phone.

Now, the players.

You have five walk-ons that are all at least semi regular. They all have their own gear, ranging from EGOs to 98's. The experience ranges from D2 down to that guy that comes out about once a month for the past 6 months. Twenty minutes before first game time, you have a minivan pull up with three 12 year old girls, none of which have ever played before. Everyone has payed for a full days' play, and the girls are really excited about being on the same team with their BFFs.

What do you do?

It stinks because there is no right answer. Hopefully, your regular players are stand-up individuals, and would love to help make sure the three newbs have a wonderful time. Unfortunately, the truth is that you will probably have a couple that really don't want to waste their saturday paying to teach a paintball class. As paying customers, they are entitled to that position, right?

Of course, the safe bet is to alternate games 2 v 3 for the regulars (not great, but OK. . ) and then 1 v 2 for the girls ( not so much fun for them). But THEN, you've got regular players upset because they spent over half the day waiting for a field / ref.

We let children play beginning at age 10. Is this too young? Not necessarily. However, do believe that the age and maturity level of players is something that needs to be looked at very closely.




4. i agree with what other people say about marker control no one likes getting light up but you know it happens you cant call back the balls in the air. but try to get people in to shooting in bursts so one if you do hit some one their shouldnt be much at one time. one way to also get it across is remind players that it will save them paint as well. like i said though im not really for or against ramp all the markers i have owned after my 98 have had it i think its more of if the rule is semi than make sure every one is in semi and punish those who are not.

You're right. You can't call paint back once it's left the barrel. Learning to shoot in bursts is a good start. You can tell people to shoot in bursts, but I promise they won't listen. Folks get pumped up on adrenaline, and get trigger happy. We have ALL done it. By the time you see the first break, there are 10 more on the way.
We have to have some kind of rule to police people by. Lack of an enforced rule is what got us to this point. Bring back the 3 break rule. You break more than three balls on someone, you're out too. That WILL get people to shoot in bursts. We've got to hold people accountable!







....
One thing to consider, and I don't remember it being brought up, is communicating your thoughts to the owner or manager of the field. As a customer, I figure my feedback to the owner is valuable, so I freely give it. In the case of the ref taking forever to start games and bs'ing about his awesomeness, I sat with the owner for a couple of minutes after we had gotten our gear together and expressed my concerns. They actually seemed pretty receptive and did go on to explain that the ref that day was new and most of their regulars were at some show. While it didn't make the day more enjoyable, it made me wililng to come back and see what the regular refs were like and probably emphasized the importance to them of having good, well trained staff on hand no matter what. Doing this also gives you a good feel of how things may be in the future. If a field owner blows you off or is patronizing, my time there is limited as I realize they aren't interested in bettering their field or accepting input. You should also let a filed owner know when they or their staff are doing a good job. Most owners aren't out there playing, so they need input from someone else other than their refs.


Spot on. I had mentioned something similar in one of my long posts above:



....
As far as zit faced kids ( and staff in general) go..... reward them for a job well done, and be specific. Give a good ref five bucks at the end of the day and tell him why:
**" hey, I really appreciate the way you ran the games today. I know you have a lot of friends out here and that they keep pounding you with questions about gun XYZ. But I think you dod a really great job of focusing on the group and making sure we all had a good time."

When the other refs learn that lil' Johnny makes an extra $20 per day because he keeps the group moving, they will follow suit.*
Then, tell the same thing to the manager.*

If you have a bad experience, talk to the manager and tell them why-- specifically. Try to avoid generalized tirades.*

Just remember, everybody gets used to getting ******'* at. *It always does a lot more good to hear what you did right every now and then.*








I think the first thing the industry (at the field / shop level) needs to do is focus on the difference between RECREATIONAL paintball and TOURNAMENT paintball.

RECREATIONAL paintball has been hailed as the great equalizer. A sport where you can have grandfathers and granddaughters on the same field, in the same game.
If this is what we want ( and it is what I believe the RECREATIONAL paintball world should be like) then we need to develop a rule set that EVERY player can be held accountable to.

If a person comes out to play RECREATIONAL paintball, then they are subject to these rules. If Johnny-Wannabee-Lasoya and his "team" need to play with each other for "practice" because they are going to start playing "tournaments", then the rec field open play day is not the place for that. As a field, offer a special time slot or special day. We (speaking as the field I used to work with) tried that for a time. We called it "Team Practice" night. Here were the rules:

No individual players. Two or more man TEAMS only.
Not for open play: Scrimmages, drilling, etc only.
We offered discounts on field paint at the case price, and discounted air.
We provided a staff member to assist with any needs on the field (i.e. not referee, but help with drills, lights, etc.)
We charged a small field fee- - $5 per person. BYOP, if you like.

Sounds amazing, right? It's almost like a light sponsorship for any two people that want to ride together and call themselves a team!

Here's what happened:

Within a month, 85% of the players that had shown up for 'team night' stopped. It turned out that they were not interested in practicing lanning, crawling, snap shooting, or scrimmaging against other teams. Most of them were only interested on banding up with their buddies and playing as a "team" against other disorganized walkons and newbies. Actually, there were several of them that got upset because there was not a ref available to chrono their gun for them, run the games, and wipe the paint off their goggles in between games!
Team practice night faded away after a few months due to lack of interest.


Anyway, keep the recreational sport separate from the tournament team sport.




I think that if it became a norm to only be allowed, say, 2 pods and a hopper, people could still shoot quickly if they want to, but they'd have to have some control over it. They'd be less likely to just sit in the back and pour paint downfield while their front guy goes up and bunkers all the cowering noobies.


I think that limiting paint during Rec games is a great idea.



I'll address price and 'Greedy Field Owners' in another post.

DocCarl

[155mmPaladin]

You know one other thing I haven't seen on here is where is it written that a ref has to be present on the field in order for you to play a game? Is it because of insurance reasons?

I still play that honor ball system on my field. Who ever gets out first just got voluenteered to be the ref for that game to point out those not so obvious hits or end the game.

A field local to me had a ref just for each field at their location, so there would be 4 or 5 games going on at once. Unfortunatly it closed down because the property got sold. Now the local field left only play one game type at a time with all that want to join.

All I want to do is have a good time and get the most bang for my buck

[Smokee_2_7]

You know one other thing I haven't seen on here is where is it written that a ref has to be present on the field in order for you to play a game? Is it because of insurance reasons?

I still play that honor ball system on my field. Who ever gets out first just got voluenteered to be the ref for that game to point out those not so obvious hits or end the game.

A field local to me had a ref just for each field at their location, so there would be 4 or 5 games going on at once. Unfortunatly it closed down because the property got sold. Now the local field left only play one game type at a time with all that want to join.

All I want to do is have a good time and get the most bang for my buck

Honor ball is awesome, as long as everyone follows it.

Hypothetically, would you put five 11 year old boys who had never played before onto your field by themselves and tell them to referee themselves?

I THINK that referees are covered in the insurance requirements, but I'm not sure.

'One ref at a field, players float' can work-- with a certain type of player. Unfortunately, many players tend to camp out in the staging area and then wonder why they got so few games, unless there is someone to gently move them along.



Tips for fields to operate more efficiently can go on for months--- and you'll always have good examples and bad examples of businesses in any given field.

What are things about the sport in general that are keeping people away? What's wrong with 'the game'?

The economy has been mentioned several times. Obviously, that is one of the bigger reasons, at least it os of you have to buy 2 cases a day and carry $2,000 worth of gear on the field every game.
But, there are lots of people that have not been affected as harshly--- and yet they still don't play.


Why?

[Army]

It was those dang Garner boys!!!

.....heh, someone had to say it :)

Acceptance of ramping, lackluster reffing (to include tourney's), and overall expense.

Kids getting their first taste of P'ball start off with a Wal-Mart special, and are amazed and highly disappointed that their new Brass Eagle blaster is comparable to the stone age....especially so when they get blazed by the latest electro ramping beast, costing 100X what their clear plastic POS did.

Instant ''wanna go home'' and never play again pain.

Not to mention, it is/was hard to get media coverage that was positive. Huntington Beach was a tremendous start....then it went bust.

Can't put the Genie back in the bottle, but I think the game can be steered back on course again.

[teichild]

I have been playing paintball for about 13 years and i have seen alot of changes to the game. I think the biggest thing i have seen that has had a negitive effect on the game is the players and their attitudes.

When i first started playing PB i had a hammer plus (pump gun for those that arnt familiar) and i had to play against people with ALOT more exp and way better equipment than me. This led to me becomeing a very good player. i watched what they were doing and how it was done. Eventualy i got better and ended up on their team. Now from what i have read so far in most threads is that people feel like we should segrigate the noobies from the exp players. i think thats a bad idea. they should be grped with people that have alot of knowlege and better gear because it will promote the growth of a better player. Odviously the better players need to realize thats what they are doing not just being fed easy targets.

Basicly the only real solution to the problems PB is faceing right now is the players. If people can learn and exercize self-control, then most of the hardships the sport faces will fix themselves. A helping hand from a better player goes a long way too. When a new player and exspecily a younger player goes home after a day of paintball and they are asked "so how was it?" and they tell a story about how this cool guy helped them and showed them some stuff, not only will the kid wanna return and learn more on how to play and improve but the parents will be more than happy to let them go.

Its really no different than any other sport. we need the better and more seasoned players to, for lack of a better word... mentor our new and younger players. when we see something that is unbecomming of a good and self-controlling player, its our duty to after the game take it apon yourself to try and help the guy out or give some insite. Just take care to be nice and considerate about it, we cant leave it up to the Refs to take care of it all the time.

Just how i see it anyways.... i could be wrong :cool: and yes i know i cant spell to save my x-mag

[Sniper Steve]

Good thread, i thought I would throw in a solution that I haven't seen on here to the reffing problem that comes up. The field that I play at not only uses regular refs the owner has given out what are called "player ref cards" He informs the players at the game that there are these players refs on the field, and says that if needed they can step into situations to help or if they see someone cheating that they have authority to act. Most regular players know that these player refs are from my team and a couple other teams, but it still seems to cause people to play better because they don't know if they are being watched. Sometimes I think people cheat when they don't see the refs around but if they don't know if they are being watched by a player ref it seems to keep people more honest, I have even carried a chrono on field and randomly checked guns. It seems to keep players more honest and can cut some costs of the field owner if he doesn't have to pay more refs.

Just thought I would throw this out there, I know that the field that I go to isn't the only ones to do this but if there isn't anyone who hasn't heard doing it this way.

[ghost271]

Im 37 and started playing '90-'91. I am glad that I got to see the sport evolve and see the technology increase. Im not going to get into the whole Smart Parts argument, but that's when I knew the industry was heading for disaster. When once companies shared ideas an inovations for the love of our sport, to one where everybody is trying to cut each others throats to get another dollar, it was a fast spiral down.

As a player, once electros became cheap and disposable, every 12 year old would walk onto the field thinking he was the best because his gun could ramp real fast. The field owners loved it because the money poured in as kids needed to feed their 'beasts'. For years we played with only our cockers, pumps, but the time came when we were getting tired of getting lit up by little kids wiping and over shooting us. So the options were to quit or fight fire with fire. It wasn't long before the same kids who once enjoyed over shooting us, got their medicine back in return ten fold.

I remember about 7 years ago, I recommended to our field owner to start 'pump only games'. My intention was so that the new kids could experience the fun that I had starting out, without the fear of being over shot. His reply to me was, " We'll make no money if we do that."

And now you see new kids getting lit up and not coming back. The speedballers at our field have such a poor turnout on the weekends that they walk over to the rec fields and then proceed to light people up, then leave again so they have something to shoot at. When we played scenarios, we used semi only. After about the third one we refused to be the 'whiping boy' to everyone else with their full auto Tippmanns and the Ego10s. So now when we play scenarios, we put our guns on Ramp or Autoresponse.

I'm hoping that the attitude of the younger kids gets to the point where they'll just stop showing up because they're getting tired of us older players handing them their asses week after week.
I think XBall and speedball and the DerDer videos that followed that praised cheating and gun throwing promoted the 'cool kids' to follow suit with similar behaviour at their own fields.

I miss the days when you could punch a cocky kid in the face and put him in line. Nowadays, they just act tough and then threaten to charge you with assault if you hit them. Our politically correct society is shooting itself in the foot and we see it in our youth.

As a sport, I hope the Speedball-esque games die and people can get back to the basics of what once made this such a great game.

[OPBN]

I miss the days when you could punch a cocky kid in the face and put him in line. Nowadays, they just act tough and then threaten to charge you with assault if you hit them. Our politically correct society is shooting itself in the foot and we see it in our youth..

God I hope you're kidding. :tard:

[ghost271]

No. I wish I was too. However seeing the arrogant 'tough guy' schtick that I see these days, its whats needed. You mouth somebody off, get in their face, swearing at them, and insulting them....thats exactly what they deserve.

How did you stop a bully from bothering you 20 years ago ? You beat the **** out of him after school and he never bugged you again. Nowadays, we need to wear a pink shirt, and just talk about it. Everything will work out ok..........right....?

[OPBN]

No. I wish I was too. However seeing the arrogant 'tough guy' schtick that I see these days, its whats needed. You mouth somebody off, get in their face, swearing at them, and insulting them....thats exactly what they deserve.

How did you stop a bully from bothering you 20 years ago ? You beat the **** out of him after school and he never bugged you again. Nowadays, we need to wear a pink shirt, and just talk about it. Everything will work out ok..........right....? Big difference between punching a cocky kid at a paintball field and standing up to a bully. If you can't see that, you have some serious issues my friend. Anyone that advocates assault as a means of cleaning up paintball needs to find another hobby.

[ghost271]

Well theres a difference between what I would like to do and think should happen as opposed to what I would actually do. Have I punched a kid at a paintball field before ? No. I'm 37 years old now and dont need a criminal record. Do I think his parents need to give him a swift kick in his *** to make him lose his attitude and poor behaviour ? Yes.

The fact of the matter is, is that these new kids and their attitudes are not needed and shouldn't be tolerated at a field. I have had some 20+'s get in my face playing rec ball, where any police officer would have seen me as simply defending myself due to his aggressive approach and stance.

20 years ago, yes I would get in a fight with somebody that acted like. One on One. After it was over, most times we became friends.

Im not going to apologize for my stance on this matter. If more parents disciplined their kids at home, they wouldn't be acting this way on the field or out in public. Its pretty bad when I see 18 year old kids telling a group of 45 year old adults who are out playing with their kids to 'Get over it. If you don't like it then don't play" after they've gone uncapped ramped on them.

But since my stance offends you then I'll put it this way.

" Can all you teens and twenty somethings who like to overshoot, swear, mock, and laugh at the new players please stop ? We just want to play nice and have a good time. God knows that you are the foundation of our great sport and we can't subsist without you. Most of us 'ole timers' with over twenty years of experiance know nothing compared to you . For that we apologize. "

Maybe if we just all thought of bunnies and rainbows the world would be a better place.

As we used to say in the army, " Suck it up Princess".

[MAGpie]

Big difference between punching a cocky kid at a paintball field and standing up to a bully. If you can't see that, you have some serious issues my friend. Anyone that advocates assault as a means of cleaning up paintball needs to find another hobby.

Posted this on a different form some time ago... I believe, this would be a more corect method, than assault. I was talking about cheating, specifically, and how to curb it.


In regards to a few threads of late, about why people cheat, on this forum and a few others, I thought I would write up the behavioural side of this phenomena.

Essentially, people cheat, because they can... and can get away with it.

Behaviour is dictated by consequences for most people. Many people, and you may be one of those, are governed by certain principals instilled in them by parents, role models, and heroes. But this is not universal for everyone. Your childhood hero, for example may, and probably is not, the same as mine. So behaviour varies, and the way people act on what is the general accepted behaviour, certainly more so.

But behaviour can be changed, or at least controlled. For this I will use the example of a person speeding down a highway on his way to work. He travels this highway twice a day, and knows every inch of it.

Now, unless he CHOOSES to obey the speed limit, there is nothing really stopping him from speeding. Now, let’s say, he is not a speed limit obeying kind of guy...

So he speeds. Why, because he can. After all, nothing or no-one is stopping him from doing it.

Then, one day, out of the blue, sirens!

Cops pull him over. He is caught speeding and fined accordingly.

For the next few weeks, he is cautious, obeying the limit, but as time goes by his eyes start scanning for the fuzz, and he realise that he was just unlucky. The police NEVER patrol that road!

So he speeds again.

Then one day, not to long after that, bang, a little board with a camera pictogram on it.

He slows down, cautious again. Days go by, he sees nothing, no camera. He calls the bluff.

He speeds up again.

One clear evening, suddenly a flash in his rear view.

Few days later, the fine arrives by mail. The camera came up. He slows down again.

But after travelling that same stretch of road a few times, he knows exactly where that camera is. So he only slows down there.



This guys behaviour was changed each time he was caught, but it was not intrenched. That behaviour did not become a part of him and he did not change his attitude in regards to the speed limit.

Cheaters work the same.

For our speedster's behaviour to be altered (and likely only on that piece of road), you will need to put a camera down every mile of the highway...

That is, unless he, in himself, decides, to start obeying the law.

It is unfortunate, but unless a person is willing to obey the rules on his own, out of choice, be it principal or moral, that person will continue breaking the rules until there are severe and continuous consequences to his actions.

Behaviour is altered, by choice or by consequence. If the penalty for cheating was severe enough, people won't. But severity is not the only issue. It needs to be consistent, and frequent as well.

In short, the only way to stop a “cheater” from cheating, is to catch him EVERY time, and make sure he feels the burden of his actions. Such a person will either disengage in his cheating, or leave the game. Either way, it is a win for paintball.

And guys, this is not just the marshals job. Players need to assist marshals with this, need to point out cheating and then INSIST on consequences. We need to make a cheater FEEL like a cheater, in the hopes to redeem him, to alter his behaviour. And if the field does not support this, don’t play there. If a marshal doesn’t support this, report him.

Beating cheating, is everybody’s job.

Now stop complaining and start acting!

[ghost271]

Oh and in regards to this statement, "Big difference between punching a cocky kid at a paintball field and standing up to a bully."

Please pray tell. What is the difference between some thug pushing you and making fun of you on some school field, and some kid overshooting you a dozen times with a paintball gun and laughing at you ?
I guess wearing a mask and signing a waiver makes one exempt from the official title of ' Bully' ?

[MAGpie]

Oh and in regards to this statement, "Big difference between punching a cocky kid at a paintball field and standing up to a bully."

Please pray tell. What is the difference between some thug pushing you and making fun of you on some school field, and some kid overshooting you a dozen times with a paintball gun and laughing at you ?
I guess wearing a mask and signing a waiver makes one exempt from the official title of ' Bully' ?

Well, last kid that over shot me was 5'7" tall, average build... pretty fair in size etc. Thing is, I am 6'4", and I am not average built. I am big. Not over weight, just big.

I would not call that child a... bully. Man, how degrading to myself.
He was however, a jerk. And after I pulled him aside with a marshal, explained how my next step would be to notify the police of the case of assault, then take legal action against the field for not enforcing its rules and regulations in regards to ROF limits and marker FPS, yes , he was running hot, well, I got a free game voucher for the next month, and little boy blue was told never to return to the field.

You don't have to physically touch anyone. And indeed, you should not. My goodness, how is beating up a cheater reflecting anything positive on paintball? What if he runs to the paper and tells how "poor little Timmy got beaten up by some 6'4" tall gorilla at the field..." Talk about bad PR. The truth is irrelevant in this case. It is the publicity that will do the damage. How many mothers will tell their kids not to go play PB, because, in this case, you, the bully, is lurking there.

They are not bullies. They are testosterone junkies, sadists, or simple attention craved children. The only way to deal with those kinds of people effectively is to take their toys away from them.

And that, can only honestly be done, by proper marshalling, and good, consistent enforcement of the rules.

[ghost271]

Well, last kid that over shot me was 5'7" tall, average build... pretty fair in size etc. Thing is, I am 6'4", and I am not average built. I am big. Not over weight, just big.

I would not call that child a... bully. Man, how degrading to myself.
He was however, a jerk. And after I pulled him aside with a marshal, explained how my next step would be to notify the police of the case of assault, then take legal action against the field for not enforcing its rules and regulations in regards to ROF limits and marker FPS, yes , he was running hot, well, I got a free game voucher for the next month, and little boy blue was told never to return to the field.

You don't have to physically touch anyone. And indeed, you should not. My goodness, how is beating up a cheater reflecting anything positive on paintball? What if he runs to the paper and tells how "poor little Timmy got beaten up by some 6'4" tall gorilla at the field..." Talk about bad PR. The truth is irrelevant in this case. It is the publicity that will do the damage. How many mothers will tell their kids not to go play PB, because, in this case, you, the bully, is lurking there.

They are not bullies. They are testosterone junkies, sadists, or simple attention craved children. The only way to deal with those kinds of people effectively is to take their toys away from them.

And that, can only honestly be done, by proper marshalling, and good, consistent enforcement of the rules.

I agree with you on all points MAGpie. I myself am 6'1, 230lbs and been doing martial arts since i was 13 and up till 4 years ago fought competitively. Like I previously stated. I have yet to punch anyone at a paintball field (come close) and at my age would be stupid (unless my personal safety was at risk). The *** kicking should be coming from the parents to start with. How do I deal with them on the field personally ? I overshoot the hell out of them just as bad as they dish it out. And many mothers are not going to let their kids come back to play paintball once they see the bleeding welts all over their childs body because of some kid who thinks rec ball is Speedball. I am far from the bully. Im the one teching the new kids Tippmann, handing out free paint to kids who have half empty hoppers, and giving them pointers after a game. Do I take crap from people ? No.

Unfortunately the only way you can take the toys away from these kids is to have their parents do it. Perhaps if their parents stayed around or saw how their kids played they would take their markers away, but I doubt that happens very much.

In regards to stopping cheating, I think its beyond preventing. This game is honor based, and theres always going to be the cheaters who cant stand being shot out by a pump player or losing in general.

I apologize for my rant. I have seen the game degrade far from what it was in the late 80's to what it is now. What I would like to see happen is to put 8 bps cap on electros, and more mechanicals and pumps out on the field. Will it happen ? I doubt it, but I think the massive resurgence of pump play is because people see the fun and skill in it and its a more econimical way to enjoy the sport.

[MAGpie]

I apologize for my rant. I have seen the game degrade far from what it was in the late 80's to what it is now. What I would like to see happen is to put 8 bps cap on electros, and more mechanicals and pumps out on the field. Will it happen ? I doubt it, but I think the massive resurgence of pump play is because people see the fun and skill in it and its a more econimical way to enjoy the sport.

I would LOVE to see that myself.

Where I am at, I have the rare opportunity to actually influence the field... because of my experience in the game and the fact I am the captain of a large scenario team. Heck, I actually helped established 3 fields around here and they all frequently get hold of me on rules etc.

Now, me and my boys support fields, that support good clean fun. So, we have support rules. We will not play on a field that does not enforce the rules well, and will not play on fields that allow more than 10bps… in ANY mode. (Ten was a nice round number, so we stuck to that.)

We also encourage mech and pump play, and give credit to fields that encourage this.

Now, when a group of 60 blokes support your field, you make money. And of course, those blokes draw attentions, drawing in even more people. I will not excaudate if I say we draw, by personal invite, spreading the word, etc etc, probably 5 to 15 new players a month in our community. Maybe 1 or 2 of them becomes hooked, but the point is, we are growing the game. At least, we are trying :)
On the other hand, when those blokes say nay... well, a field will lose a lot. Not just from those folks, but from the word they spread…

So the fields without our reach, they make sure they keep us happy. And we are happy, when people have fun.

[XM15]

I think a lot of things contributed to the drop in paintball but there are 3 things that are the biggest. First is the speedball format. This made it possible for any body with a football field of space to open a field. Then they allowed electro machine guns shooting 720-900 balls per min to be used on these little fields. The last thing they did was let way to young of kids out on those fields with nothing but a rental tippmann 98 or some spyder type gun. Those poor kids never had a chance. I can't tell you how many 12 year olds I have seen frozen in fear just sitting in a bunker not moving and after 3 or 4 games they were done. They weren't just done for the day you could tell they were done with paintball. In the last couple of years around here things have gotton better woodsball seems to be more popular again. That's what fields need to do in my opinion is get paintball back in the woods especially for rec play. It slows the game down in both speed and fire power. My buddy brought his twin 14 year old boys to a woodsball scenario game we played last fall and they had a blast. His one son even wanted a pump gun after playing. I think that's the experince all young players should have not getting over shot on a airball field at 12 to 15bps cowaring behind a dorrito.

[bound for glory]

but some of these young kids take the rudeness to a different level. i played castle with my emag and some young kid said(loud enough for his little gang to hear) "hey! a f*g with a mag"! :( now, at the time, i was 38 years old. this guy was about 17 or 18. ofcorse, he was tricked out in a tourney jersey, had a high end dye marker. all the new crap. ditto his gang. i was shocked. really. i could have punched my fist right through this little weeds face. but all i could say was, "i'm not gay". great come back, huh?

[ghost271]

but some of these young kids take the rudeness to a different level. i played castle with my emag and some young kid said(loud enough for his little gang to hear) "hey! a f*g with a mag"! :( now, at the time, i was 38 years old. this guy was about 17 or 18. of corse, he was tricked out in a tourney jersey, had a high end dye marker. all the new crap. ditto his gang. i was shocked. really. i could have punched my fist right through this little weeds face. but all i could say was, "i'm not gay". great come back, huh?


LOL !
Good to see Im not the only one !
There were a few times at our field when a couple guys had tried to pull the tough guy routine on both myself and another friend of mine whos a Shihan and runs his own MMA school. I currently hold a red belt (Brown equivalent in most other styles) in Pankration. Its funny because when these guys start getting heated up, the other one of us would stand back and wait for the 'show' to begin. We'd hope that these guys would throw the first punch and then the speedy *** whooping would ensue. Thats one of the joys of training in the dojo. Once the whole UFC fad/cool factor kicked in, every kid and their dog wanted to learn to fight. The big body builder roid types would get owned for two hours a class and you'd never see them again.

A word of advice for anybody out there who feels intimidated by some of these loud mouth jackasses on the field. 9 out of 10 times its the guys with the big mouths that cant back up what their spewwing. Its the calm quiet guy standing in the back ground minding his own business you need to worry about.

And I think this type of mentallity carries over into paintball too. Look at the senior recballers out there who still play with their pump guns. Nothing pisses of a kid with a $1500 gun more or bruises his ego than some old guy shooting him out with a PGP. :rofl:

Skill trumps all. And that can only be developed with years of play time and experience.

[koleah]

but some of these young kids take the rudeness to a different level. i played castle with my emag and some young kid said(loud enough for his little gang to hear) "hey! a f*g with a mag"! :( now, at the time, i was 38 years old. this guy was about 17 or 18. ofcorse, he was tricked out in a tourney jersey, had a high end dye marker. all the new crap. ditto his gang. i was shocked. really. i could have punched my fist right through this little weeds face. but all i could say was, "i'm not gay". great come back, huh?

Walk up to him, make that limp wristed f*g hand motion, maybe stroke his shoulder and bat your eyes, and say "Well how could tell big boy, those sure are some pretty lips; its too bad I didn't bring my cocker today since I can totally tell you would love to play with it. Maybe you could help me with my balls? I think my bolt might need some lube... (etc etc)"

Freak him out :wow:

[kwik175]

Well I have been playing since 95 and have seen paintball come and go in my area and also in my life. The last 2 years it has really been hot in my area (central PA). Several local fields for rec ball and with just a couple hours drive speedball tourney fields. Most of the problems I encounter are the field owners wanting to run a rec field like like an xball field. They want teams and tournaments and turn a few pallets into speedball practice. Now we have a few so called teams of kids trying to act as though they are competing at a national level showing up at field where most of the rentals are shooting 98's. Of course ROF is an issue because our local fields don't limit it. Its not fun trying to play woodsball with a guy firing 30 bps from the fort. And as previously stated field owners like the business so no one gets reprimanded. I know that cost is an issue and alot of noobs may not have the money or ability to travel, but if you want to play as team and play speedball, then go where the field only offers that. My PSP team travels to Pittsburgh, Philly, Maryland, etc to play speedball. When we go to a local field we dont wear our team jerseys and dont play as a team. I use my mags at local fields to at least bring my gun down to a rec level. Trying to mix team tourney style play at a rec field is killing the sport in my area. Just my opinion.

[38super]

This past Sunday I got lit up while calling myself out repeatedly as I tried to leave a second floor building in an attack/defend game. First I raised my hand and waved it in the open window and the guy shoots my hand several times. Try again with the hand, he shoots it again. Pop my head up to yell directly at him since he was only 12 yards away and he shoots me in the face, chest, top of the head and gun. He's got his gun shooting full auto I guess and it sounds like 20+/second-ish. I must've taken at least 15 hits. Screaming at him all the way I exit the building walking down the stairs and he keeps shooting, knowing full well I'm pissed off and not caring at all. Guy was in his late 20's-early 30's. Certainly old enough to know better.

Ref just shrugs and say he didn't see it.

I've been playing off and on for 20 years, rec only, walk-on mostly. Usually people are fine but every so often I run into one of these jerks who just don't care. It ruins it for new guys, and frankly sucks the fun out of it for me.

Now I could have taken my electro out of the bag and made him my mission in life for the rest of the evening, but I have no interest in being a poor sport or carrying anger around. It isn't fun and I can just stay home and not have fun and spend less, so I opted to leave instead. I admit, I fantasized briefly about butt-stroking him in the head, but the thought of criminal charges was a great limiter. Mentioned to the field staff why I was leaving and again, a shrug.

I also noted that the ref had very poor control of the field. Waiting for the game to start (half hour...?) with people standing around in a clot just firing their guns in all directions, usually in front of someone's face or just over their heads...at their feet, etc. Completely random and chaotic.

I think field owners need to establish professional standards of practice and sportsmanship, a clear and consistent rule-set, spell them out and and enforce them. Guys who spend lots of money but drive away customers are no bargain in the long term, and they should have their chains jerked but quick.

[bound for glory]

i certainly was'nt intimadated by the little jerk. if the kid knew he was calling a former skinhead a f*g, well, he would have thought twice about it. and even at 38 i would have shoved him or got in his face if i was'nt good friends with blue and the staff at EMR.

[peteralexander78]

I do agree with all the points said. But for me personally, I play woodsball and I am the one organizing games. I cannot control who my friends bring one time but I trust most of them not to make the same mistake again. I feel the biggest issue with the market is cost. I lost my job and an now trying to get my game on again. My issue is that the cost of paint alone has gone up $10-15 a case in 2 years. The game already cost enough for gear and other stuff.

[38super]

I would love to see all-mech games again and I would also be in favor of round count limits. I think it would lead to a higher standard of technical play, better discipline and more fun for everyone. But I guess it isn't going to happen because from a purely cash-flow point of view, a field owner would be rubbing his hands together when all the rich kids with the ramping electros show up and start buying cases of paint. The renters and mech shooters just aren't going to spend as much money. Trouble is; your average guy who comes out for a day of fun and ends up getting ripped repeatedly by some punk (or group of them) isn't going to come back, and if enough of those people stay away then the business dies anyway.

As a simple matter of relative scale, an UZI submachine gun has a cyclic rate of 600 rounds per minute, which is pretty fast in the real world. An electronic paintball gun, even if it's limited to 13 bps is still shooting a rate of 780/minute and if you're able to semi-shoot 20+ bps you're DOUBLING the firing rate of the UZI! Putting that kind of firepower up against renters and casual players is simply insane.

To my mind, it is not the fault of the evil little *****s or their parents or even the equipment; People will merely default to the lowest common denominator of behavior because there is nothing to stop them from doing so. It is the fault of the field owner and the people he has out there reffing the players. I come from a competitive shooting background where safety is the number one concern. The range officer is the ultimate authority on the firing line and his word is the word of God. And as well as for safety infractions, unsportsmanlike conduct is a disqualification offense. A paintball field should be treated similarly. I routinely see people doing things on the field with their guns that send shivers up my spine and I keep waiting for the ref to intercede. Usually they have no clue or aren't really paying attention.

If I ran a field I would post the rules clearly, make sure that they are reiterated as part of the verbal briefing, and then ENFORCE them with well trained refs. Those who cheat or use newcomers for target practice would get get one warning and if it wasn't heeded their money would be refunded and they'd be asked to leave. Come back when you can behave yourself or.....don't. If enough owners did this there would be no place for the idiots to play so they would either have to learn to behave or quit.

I think that a field that earns a reputation for fair, interesting and fun play will build a stronger core of repeat customers long-term. So calibrating the business to the paint wasters is somewhat short-sighted.

[hill160881]

Renters and self equipped should not be playing together. I played against a group with me ICE Epic a few months back, and it would not have mattered if i was using a electronic marker. But i try not to over shoot people.


I never here an experienced player complaining about me shooting 20 bps at them when they are using a pump. They could have grabbed a different marker from the bag, but they chose a pump. I have been shot out in those situations as well. And if the group is mixed with different levels of markers then split them up evenly. Everyone likes good cover fire. Besides all they have to do is ask me to slow down and I will.

Its all about the people you play with. Which is why i only play with private groups anymore.
Good group, good fun.

[RogueFactor]

I think a lot of things contributed to the drop in paintball but there are 3 things that are the biggest. First is the speedball format. This made it possible for any body with a football field of space to open a field. Then they allowed electro machine guns shooting 720-900 balls per min to be used on these little fields. The last thing they did was let way to young of kids out on those fields with nothing but a rental tippmann 98 or some spyder type gun.
For myself and a vast majority Ive known over the years, the speedball format is what brought us into or back to paintball. The industry saw the phenomenal growth it did for the first half of the last decade as a result of this format.

I can agree on your 2nd and 3rd points, because when those 2 things ruined the speedball format, these same players didnt go back to the woods, they quit paintball altogether.

[bbotts77]

One thing I have to remind the refs of at my local field is that they are the boss out on the field. If a player is breaking the rules, pull them. It doesn't matter how big or intimidating or how much money they spend at the park. The ref has the final say out on the field.

For instance: At one of my local fields, there is a group of players who play/played for a local arena football team. Most of them are total hotheads who act like the "kids" mentioned earlier in this thread. These guys spend a lot of money at the field, so they feel like they can do whatever they want to. They wipe, they have their markers set for ramping, they don't respect the 10' rule and they talk back to the refs. The refs are terrified of them because they're physically big guys and they're loud.

One weekend last summer, these guys had a pretty large group at the park. They wanted to all stick together on the same team. Their group actually outnumbered the rest of the open group, so this wasn't much of an option for them. When the ref told them they would have to split up, a few of the players had meltdowns and started yelling at the ref about how much money they spend at the park and that they're going to tell the owner that if they can't play together, then they won't continue coming to the park.

I had to step in and tell the ref to go ahead and tell the owner himself. I had to remind him that he's the boss out on the field. If he sees that the teams aren't fair, it's his responsibility to try to make them fair to keep things fun for everyone.

So, the main problems I see are players who don't play by the rules and refs who are afraid to enforce the rules. The latter falls back on the owners/managers who are not expressing to the refs how important it is for them to enforce the rules.