DYE out of business?

[drewwho]

So my friend said DYE is going out of business. i am out of the loop, is there truth to this?

[bound for glory]

would'nt bother me.i meet "super" dave once many years ago when i went out to cali for a wedding. smug and arrogant.

[MeÐiCX]

Seriously doubt that.

[Ando]

Seriously doubt that.
Agree...

[Frizzle Fry]

Agree...

Seconded.


DYE owns a good chunk of the high-end softgoods market. The Matrix bottomed-out in 2008, and the Ego has started to in 2010. Unfortunately the GEO has beaten the hell out of the NT on many levels and will probably outlast it. I doubt that DYE is going anywhere but I expect they'll drop the DM, fix up the NT, and come out with something other than the PMR/SLG to appeal to the mid-low market like a strip-down NT or something. We might see a new DYE, but it'll be DYE.

[bound for glory]

well, hate to burst all your bubbles(because i really doubt most of you have been in his presence), i was introduced to dave by a friend of a friend. looked over his gear and stood there and listened to him have a conversation with one of his lackeys about, well, how great his markers were compared to "just about everything out there for the foreseeable future". and i don't care if you guys read any number of magazine articals and he seems like a nice guy. i heard him, he acted big headed, and thats how he was that day.
again, the magic of the internet! now, lets hear how great the guy is. because so many here know him, right? :rolleyes:

[Frizzle Fry]

well, hate to burst all your bubbles(because i really doubt most of you have been in his presence), i was introduced to dave by a friend of a friend. looked over his gear and stood there and listened to him have a conversation with one of his lackeys about, well, how great his markers were compared to "just about everything out there for the foreseeable future". and i don't care if you guys read any number of magazine articals and he seems like a nice guy. i heard him, he acted big headed, and thats how he was that day.
again, the magic of the internet! now, lets hear how great the guy is. because so many here know him, right? :rolleyes:

Calm down man, I think we were all collectively doubting that DYE is going out of business, not your story. That's the topic of this thread, after all.

[Coralis]

someone get the nets

[bound for glory]

sorry. went off half cocked.

[MeÐiCX]

well, hate to burst all your bubbles(because i really doubt most of you have been in his presence), i was introduced to dave by a friend of a friend. looked over his gear and stood there and listened to him have a conversation with one of his lackeys about, well, how great his markers were compared to "just about everything out there for the foreseeable future". and i don't care if you guys read any number of magazine articals and he seems like a nice guy. i heard him, he acted big headed, and thats how he was that day.
again, the magic of the internet! now, lets hear how great the guy is. because so many here know him, right? :rolleyes:

Doesn't really matter if Dave is a douche or not. Dye has a good share of the market. Their new line of scenario gear has good reviews (expensive for my taste). They've been around along time and haven't made any major bad decisions that would lead them to failure.

[RogueFactor]

Never met Dave and dont care if he is a douche or not. As long as he takes care of his customers. I wouldnt lose any sleep if this were true though.

[bound for glory]

i had my emag and about the only thing he directly said to me was "hows that cinder block shooting today"? when i said "great", he said "miracles never cease". and then he acts like hes already forgotten i'm there and says to lacky #1, "i can't get past the weight of that thing"..."who would want to carry that around all day"?...and my favorite, "your carrying a cider block, that breaks half the paint that goes through it, you need a car battery to power it, all for $1200". the lacky laughs like a horse and some hangers on hot looking chick laughs and(i am not kidding) says, "if it ain't dye, it ain't paintball". really.

[kurtisqpublic]

i had my emag and about the only thing he directly said to me was "hows that cinder block shooting today"? when i said "great", he said "miracles never cease". and then he acts like hes already forgotten i'm there and says to lacky #1, "i can't get past the weight of that thing"..."who would want to carry that around all day"?...and my favorite, "your carrying a cider block, that breaks half the paint that goes through it, you need a car battery to power it, all for $1200". the lacky laughs like a horse and some hangers on hot looking chick laughs and(i am not kidding) says, "if it ain't dye, it ain't paintball". really.

Cinder block? Does Davey remember his "pimped VM68" days?
:tard:

[skipdogg]

i had my emag and about the only thing he directly said to me was "hows that cinder block shooting today"? when i said "great", he said "miracles never cease". and then he acts like hes already forgotten i'm there and says to lacky #1, "i can't get past the weight of that thing"..."who would want to carry that around all day"?...and my favorite, "your carrying a cider block, that breaks half the paint that goes through it, you need a car battery to power it, all for $1200". the lacky laughs like a horse and some hangers on hot looking chick laughs and(i am not kidding) says, "if it ain't dye, it ain't paintball". really.


Yeah, thats a total low class jagoff comment. I'm glad it made him feel better as a person to have to say that stuff.

[bound for glory]

and thats the point i was trying to get across. tho, tbh, he was making remarks about several paintball guns.
and thats the diffence between guys like the great gardner brothers and youngblood(and for the most part, bob long), compared to tom kaye. its something called CLASS! and yes, i've meet all these people. just my opinion, btw.

[RogueFactor]

and thats the point i was trying to get across. tho, tbh, he was making remarks about several paintball guns.
and thats the diffence between guys like the great gardner brothers and youngblood(and for the most part, bob long), compared to tom kaye. its something called CLASS! and yes, i've meet all these people. just my opinion, btw.

Maybe the only difference is situation. Ive heard Tom speak not-so-highly of the Gardner brothers at a semi-private invite only AGD tech conference to a few of us. Ive never seen him do this in an open public forum.

And to be fair, AGD has its fair share of hanger-ons too. The EMag does have its shortcomings, weight and battery were among them, especially before all the ULE stuff debuted. DYs tact towards a non-customer in the situation may have been a poor choice, but his opinions arent far off base.

[going_home]

So my friend said DYE is going out of business. i am out of the loop, is there truth to this?

Interesting.

First post and it very much looks like a troll.

Lets see what I can get started on AO.....

Wonder what forum a link to this thread will show up in.

It must be true its on the internets.


:tard:

[bound for glory]

i don't know if the op is a troll. and i reaally did'nt mean to go off on dave youngblood.
that being said, the guy was acting like a classless dick. and i know the emag has its problems. but:
1) i don't have girly arms or stamina, so it being a "cinder block" does'nt bother me :p
2) if my "car battery" fails, i had a switch on the thing that makes it work again ;)
3) with the level 10 mod.(witch dave surely must have heard of) my emag broke almost no paint
4) emags>dms(ANY) 'nuff said
and yeah, i'm very sure tom has his opinions on the jerkoff brothers and others. ditto thier markers. but to sit there, secure in your own crowd, with a bunch of "yes men", and make just plain idiotic statments about ANYONES gear in front of them, that is the definition of classless.
i'm for agd. right now, i'm magless due to a bad trade(my emag for a devilmag...don't ask). i have a very nice RL timmy and my boy shoots a shocker i got a great deal on. but if money allowed, my boy and i would be shooting mags again. :shooting:

[Daze]

DYE owns a good chunk of the high-end softgoods market. The Matrix bottomed-out in 2008, and the Ego has started to in 2010. Unfortunately the GEO has beaten the hell out of the NT on many levels and will probably outlast it. I doubt that DYE is going anywhere but I expect they'll drop the DM, fix up the NT, and come out with something other than the PMR/SLG to appeal to the mid-low market like a strip-down NT or something. We might see a new DYE, but it'll be DYE.
Personally I expect the NT to be tweaked,and the DM to be discontinues and re-released after a year or so as the PM and at the same pricepoint as the old PM's were. I still expect the Rail to settle out to one model, and drop in price a bit. The SLG will stay about where it is.

It actually speaks towards Dye's stability that they have so many makes and models out right now, especially new ones. It almost seems like (especially with the Rail models) they're just seeing what will sell and what wont. Thats very dangerous unless you're very secure financially.

[RogueFactor]

Thats very dangerous unless you're very secure financially.
Or its necessary because youre not financially secure.

[Frizzle Fry]

Interesting.

First post and it very much looks like a troll.

Lets see what I can get started on AO.....

Wonder what forum a link to this thread will show up in.

It must be true its on the internets.


:tard:

I noticed that as I typed... Methinks this could be something more than a troll (i.e. a competitor trying to drum up lack-of-support fears, DYE trying to drum up some mid-range marker business, a private seller trying to add value to a collection). I'm no conspiracy theorist but there are plenty of better places to start a "DYE is disappearing" fight than on AO; like any other paintball forum - TechPB and PBN come to mind. I dunno it just seems weird, and "drewho" hasn't come back to respond.

[luke]

This post reminded me of this article I read back in 2006 about DYE. Unless you're machinist, you probably haven’t seen it. I don’t know DYB but at least he manufacturers his own markers in the US and on American made CNC machines (And hopfully employs Americans). He gets a vote from me for not being an American sell out like most US companies these days (Not just paintball).

If he has sent his manufacturing over seas since then, well I retract my good thoughts about the guy.

http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/images/covers_md/v10i34.jpg

Here's a link to the "E-mag" azine>>
http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/Ebook/v10i34/index.html#

[cockerpunk]

This post reminded me of this article I read back in 2006 about DYE. Unless you're machinist, you probably haven’t seen it. I don’t know DYB but at least he manufacturers his own markers in the US and on American made CNC machines (And hopfully employs Americans). He gets a vote from me for not being an American sell out like most US companies these days (Not just paintball).

If he has sent his manufacturing over seas since then, well I retract my good thoughts about the guy.

http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/images/covers_md/v10i34.jpg

Here's a link to the "E-mag" azine>>
http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/Ebook/v10i34/index.html#

interesting article besides being an add for haas ... haha. i didn't know that dye still was in the USA, no wonder there stuff is so expensive. its hard to keep things in the USA, thats for sure.

i have to say though, having recently inspected and comapred an NT11 to a g6r, the NT11s machining was sub par and ratehr disappointing. the g6r on the other hand was pretty amazing.

[luke]

interesting article besides being an add for haas ... haha.

It's a HAAS customer magazine made by Haas. ;)

[Coralis]

i had my emag and about the only thing he directly said to me was "hows that cinder block shooting today"? when i said "great", he said "miracles never cease". and then he acts like hes already forgotten i'm there and says to lacky #1, "i can't get past the weight of that thing"..."who would want to carry that around all day"?...and my favorite, "your carrying a cider block, that breaks half the paint that goes through it, you need a car battery to power it, all for $1200". the lacky laughs like a horse and some hangers on hot looking chick laughs and(i am not kidding) says, "if it ain't dye, it ain't paintball". really.



should of told him your DM blah blah was broken again and you had to get something reliable to shoot

[Frizzle Fry]

should of told him your DM blah blah was broken again and you had to get something reliable to shoot

I've rarely encountered issues with any Matrix I've owned. I'm not a fanboy, quite the opposite, but they were and are well made markers that (like most high-ends, other than maybe the Creed) tend to develop problems due to users errors rather than the manufacturers. DYE did a good job regulating 3rd party accessories when they bought the rights to the Matrix too... weeded out much of the low quality less than reliable stuff, at the expense of some great companies though.

[insixdays777]

I cant believe Dye still has its fanboys counting freaking blinking lights on their $1800.00 2011 flagship markers.

I mean my 2001 LCD Angel had an LCD Screen!

[Daze]

Or its necessary because youre not financially secure.
Also true. Given the popularity of their markers and soft gear, and the exorbitant prices charged, I assume they aren't broke. I also don't hear of them buying stupid things, or trying to sponsor the whole world of paintball, so I assume they aren't pissing money away either. It could all be going to blackjack and hookers though...

[d4m4don3]

This post reminded me of this article I read back in 2006 about DYE. Unless you're machinist, you probably haven’t seen it. I don’t know DYB but at least he manufacturers his own markers in the US and on American made CNC machines (And hopfully employs Americans). He gets a vote from me for not being an American sell out like most US companies these days (Not just paintball).

If he has sent his manufacturing over seas since then, well I retract my good thoughts about the guy.

http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/images/covers_md/v10i34.jpg

Here's a link to the "E-mag" azine>>
http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/Ebook/v10i34/index.html#

He has since sent manufacturing over seas to a point. Team guns are still milled in the US.

[bound for glory]

oh, so he can still be bothered to mill something for his teams, but anyone else gets something from china for their money. and thats the meaning of the new world order...

[Frizzle Fry]

oh, so he can still be bothered to mill something for his teams, but anyone else gets something from china for their money. and thats the meaning of the new world order...

No it means that he has rough milling done overseas (as does Bob Long and many others) and that the beauty milling for all standard and team guns are done in the US. Team guns cost more because they have additional/different milling, but are available to "everyone else".

[luke]

That's too bad with production going over seas; I estimated that at the time of that article he easily had more than 3m invested in that shop, probably way more than that.

[Frizzle Fry]

That's too bad with production going over seas; I estimated that at the time of that article he easily had more than 3m invested in that shop, probably way more than that.

I agree but I can't fault DYE any more than anyone else who does it, since so much of the industry does these days it would be unfair to single them out. Hell, even Angel went to China for a while and after disastrous results is now UK exclusive again. I'd like to see somebody get a US-parts-and-labor-only marker made that isn't just assembled or polished in the states.

[OPBN]

What I don't understand is why move rough cutting overseas? I would think that this portion of the process would be pretty automated. I can't imagine that it costs that much more to have someone standing and watching a machine here anymore than it would to have someone in China stand and watch the same machine, especially after you figure in shipping. I have a customer in Germany that I was discussing production costs with one time and made the comment that I was surprised so much of the board assembly was still done domestically. His response essentially was that the cost differential between assembly locally and overseas was about the same. So much of it is automated, that they calculated the actual costs and didn't see any substantial savings by moving the produciton offshore. "The machines cost the same here as they do there" was his comment. And then when you figure in the costs and reset time if there is a quality issue, you eat away any potential savings. And when dealing with China, there will be a quality issue. Not if, but when.

[RogueFactor]

I can't imagine that it costs that much more to have someone standing and watching a machine here anymore than it would to have someone in China stand and watch the same machine, especially after you figure in shipping.

It does. The guy in China probably makes at most $5/day. The Union machinist makes 50+ times that per day, not including benefits, pensions, sick days, 401K, etc.

[OPBN]

It does. The guy in China probably makes at most $5/day. The Union machinist makes 50+ times that per day, not including benefits, pensions, sick days, 401K, etc.
That's why you manufacture in non-union states. Even at the costs you give, how many rough bodies can be produced in a day? Can one person run multiple machines? I guess my piont being that at $1600+ per marker, seems to be plenty of room in there to produce stateside, especially if you own the equipment.

[cockerpunk]

oh, so he can still be bothered to mill something for his teams, but anyone else gets something from china for their money. and thats the meaning of the new world order...

no, thats free market economics.


That's too bad with production going over seas; I estimated that at the time of that article he easily had more than 3m invested in that shop, probably way more than that.

*looks over shoulder at 14.5 million dollar machine*

no, probably not ;)

we have cool toys at 3m

[luke]

I agree but I can't fault DYE any more than anyone else who does it, since so much of the industry does these days it would be unfair to single them out. Hell, even Angel went to China for a while and after disastrous results is now UK exclusive again. I'd like to see somebody get a US-parts-and-labor-only marker made that isn't just assembled or polished in the states.

I'm talking about the USA in general, not just DYE, hell last I heard Budwiser sold out too.

[luke]

no, thats free market economics.
*looks over shoulder at 14.5 million dollar machine*
no, probably not ;)
we have cool toys at 3m

Haas machines don't run into that kind of money although they sell some pricy higher end stuff. The average size machine he's running in that shop for paintball items, with all the bells and whistles, would come in on average of $100,000 (rough guess of course)

Not counting tooling and fixtures plus everything else it takes to get the product made and out the door.

[cockerpunk]

Haas machines don't run into that kind of money although they sell some pricy higher end stuff. The average size machine he's running in that shop for paintball items, with all the bells and whistles, would come in on average of $100,000 (rough guess of course)

Not counting tooling and fixtures plus everything else it takes to get the product made and out the door.

our stuff is typically custom, we hardly buy anything off the shelf because we do things that no one else in the world can do. we end up building most of our machines ourselves. raises the price a bit.

[RogueFactor]

Also true. Given the popularity of their markers and soft gear, and the exorbitant prices charged, I assume they aren't broke. I also don't hear of them buying stupid things, or trying to sponsor the whole world of paintball, so I assume they aren't pissing money away either. It could all be going to blackjack and hookers though...
Back in 2007 I walked into a paintball shop where I knew the owner. He had brand new DM4s, DM5s, and DM6s(and of course the new DM7s) on the wall he just received from DYE. DYE still had stock of all years models since inception.

Now that was at the height of the electro-craze. At that time, they had yet to sell out of any years production. Things havent been rosy since 2007, so it would be hard to imagine that sales have gotten better.

Just my $.02.

[saintnoir]

why have rough work done in china,no unions,cheap labor and no osha safety costs
simple example
chinese safety (http://youtu.be/W_YnaHNcISw)

[CatoRockwell]

Not speaking of China specifically, but honestly whats wrong with doing manufacturing in a foreign country? There are plenty of examples of shoddy quality control in the US just like in any other country. Look at the American Auto industry. It doesn't matter where you do your manufacturing, it matters who is doing your manufacturing. Being made in America isn't inherently better than any other country, unless you're focused on protectionism. I don't see it as selling out if you aren't a protectionist. I buy the highest quality products regardless of what nation they come from.

Back on topic, Dye isn't going anywhere and I think this is a Troll post. They're tactical line seems to be getting rather popular, according to my local sources, the DM isn't going anywhere at least for a few more years. The Rotor is hands down the most popular hopper and the Dye I4's are a popular high quality mask.

I personally prefer my PE Ego11 & my prophecy, I currently use the I4 and I've been very satisfied with it. My only complaint with Dye is their softgoods which quality-wise have slipped in the last few years.

As to DYB. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. Never met him personally, but as a company DYE has had pretty good customer service. I think Roguefactor was spot on about how in that many legends in paintball have smeared their reputation by being an @$$ at one time or another. I could tell you stories about the times I've met Bob Long & his team, but as long as these companies provide a quality product I will purchase the product on its own merit not on the individual moral merits of it's owner. If I only bought things from people that were never stupid, then I wouldn't have a single option in paintball.

[Frizzle Fry]

Not speaking of China specifically, but honestly whats wrong with doing manufacturing in a foreign country? There are plenty of examples of shoddy quality control in the US just like in any other country. Look at the American Auto industry. It doesn't matter where you do your manufacturing, it matters who is doing your manufacturing. Being made in America isn't inherently better than any other country, unless you're focused on protectionism. I don't see it as selling out if you aren't a protectionist. I buy the highest quality products regardless of what nation they come from.

I think a lot of older players are concerned with keeping jobs stateside, as the last 20 years have seen a country farming out production to the point that many if not most are engaged only in the import and retail of the things they and their fellow citizens buy. So yeah that's protectionism, but it boils down to the fact that $15/hr in a retail store doesn't buy a whole lot of paintball gear or pride. On the other side of things many of the employees of south east asian machine shops work in extremely dangerous conditions for little money with no benefits; it's inhuman to say the least.

Either way, on a consumer level I'm more concerned with the shoddy quality of much of what comes out of that kind of production. I'd love to see how many of the bodies that are rough milled are actually utilized in the production of markers (even then not all those used are up to snuff). It's true, American-made doesn't mean quality but on the one hand there seems to be a greater chance of it being well made (no matter how slight) and on the other you know that it's supporting our economy, providing jobs to our citizens, and providing workers with a safe work environment where they are better rewarded for their labor.

[CatoRockwell]

If we want to support our economy then we better start incentivizing business owners to stay here. Remove regulations & taxes. As someone who has grown up in a family who runs and owns small businesses locally I can say that 99% of the problem comes from our BS trade agreement with our neighbors, which boils down to: We are going to regulate & tax Americans into the grave but we will incentivize our neighbors to have cheap labor. I'm all for saving the American manufacturer, my problem is the people who assume that "made in the USA" somehow implies a superior product, which it doesn't. There's a reason the japanese car manufacturers are running the American one's out of business. And have already done so in electronics. Until we stop subsidizing bad companies like Chrysler, and stop pillaging start up companies, our country is hosed.

It amazes me how backward our solutions to problems are. If a company produces and is smart and successful, we tax and regulate them into the grave. If they are idiotic, make stupid investments, well then, thats the sort of thing we should dump taxdollars in to bail out.

Looks like Ayn Rand was right.

[Frizzle Fry]

I'm with you man. NAFTA and our lovely little 2000 trade agreement with China have done more damage to us than anything else in my lifetime. You'll notice a common name signed at the bottom of both. I guess from the perspective of a paintballer it's just a small way to put their money in the hands of US business who produce their product in the US - and obviously they'd want to buy the product that's best made and most suited to their needs, so even if there is a lower quality product out there that was also made in the US it probably isn't the first choice.

[hill160881]

They(China) make everything we buy and use, and they hold most of our debt. Think they set it up that way? Think they read the ART OF WAR? Make no mistake, China is our enemy and they have us right where they want us. How can a country wage a war with THE major super power, with no money, no reserves, no means of production, and no debtors willing to support us in a conflict. Wars are decided by money, and we are trillions in the whole while China has a surplus.

China would clean our slate in a conflict. They have huge reserves in, gold, silver, oil, coal, iron ore............ We have nothing in comparison because we sold our reserves to them. Ya our lovely system allowed a few money hungry people to destroy our ability to defend ourselves, and put every tax payer $100,000 in the whole.

Further more OSHA has destroyed the small workplace, just like the modern union. They once had there purposes but now they just make the work place more expensive to operate. If you saw the list of things they can fine a General contractor for you would laugh. Manufacturing jobs need OSHA but not small home run businesses. Also unions are fighting the wrong people. If they stop asking the companies for more money and put there efforts into changing the political problems causing us to need higher wages(Inflation), then i would support unions.

The only incentive to keep manufacturing here in the US is to pass laws that would make it more expensive to make things anywhere but here. Money talks and we all know what walks. So as long as we have this capitalistic system, the lowest bidder will almost always win. Also we dont have a capitalistic system, those types of systems dont bail out failing businesses. They let them fail and allow the smaller company to advance, (survival of the fittest). I wont even say the type of system we have in practice. The bailouts only served to show us who controls the country, and its not the people. So as long as big business is running the country, they will continue to do what is most profitable for them and screw us in the process.

my 2 cents

[mpsd]

I've been reading your discussion and found it quite interesting and high level. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much.

Now, just some quick facts:

- Anheuser Busch (Budwiser) was sold in 2009 for a Brazilian group but all the factories and most of the jobs were kept in US
- Over 95% of the products sold in Wal Mart are made in China
- Here in Brazil, an employee costs over twice of what he gets paid for the company. Imagine someone who receives a R$ 10,000.00 salary (I'm speaking of less than 2% of the workforce here - the minimum salary is R$ 545.00). The company has to pay so many taxes, benefits, unions etc that the company will spend something between R$ 19,000.00 and R$ 21,000.00 with that employee. Not only that, the employee will also have to pay so many taxes that in the end of the month, he will only receive R$ 7,000.00 in his bank account.
- At the same time, here in Brazil, one has to pay for his own education, health insurance, security etc because the public services are really, really lame and, trust me, lame is a soft word for what it really is. Also, every product sold here pays AT LEAST 40% of taxes. That's right. 40%. When one buys gasoline to put in his tank, 53% of the cost are taxes. When one buys a car, 48% are taxes. When one buys industrialized food, 40%. And every imported merchandise pays 78% of taxes. 78%!
- There isn't a SINGLE day whithout news of corruption between our local politics, police officers, government companies directors etc. Every day you open the news paper there's a new scandal. Think of that.

So I really wish I was in USA, paying for every penny your government wants for labor and taxes. Not only it's WAY cheaper, you guys actually get what you pay for, meaning you do receive good education in public schools, you do receive good health on your public hospitals (I know they charge you but if you can't pay they will still heal you) and you do have good security on your streets (generally speaking, I know).

[Hook]

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The rest was made in China."

:rofl:

[hill160881]

I've been reading your discussion and found it quite interesting and high level. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much.

Now, just some quick facts:

- Anheuser Bush (Budwiser) was sold in 2009 for a Brazilian group but all the factories and most of the jobs were kept in US
- Over 95% of the products sold in Wal Mart are made in China
- Here in Brazil, an employee costs over twice of what he gets paid for the company. Imagine someone who receives a R$ 10,000.00 salary (I'm speaking of less than 2% of the workforce here - the minimum salary is R$ 545.00). The company has to pay so many taxes, benefits, unions etc that the company will spend something between R$ 19,000.00 and R$ 21,000.00 with that employee. Not only that, the employee will also have to pay so many taxes that in the end of the month, he will only receive R$ 7,000.00 in his bank account.
- At the same time, here in Brazil, one has to pay for his own education, health insurance, security etc because the public services are really, really lame and, trust me, lame is a soft word for what it really is. Also, every product sold here pays AT LEAST 40% of taxes. That's right. 40%. When one buy gasoline to put in his tank, 53% of the cost are taxes. When one buys a car, 48% are taxes. When one buys industrialized food, 40%. And every imported merchandise pays 78% of taxes. 78%!
- There isn't a SINGLE day whithout news of corruption between our local politics, police officers, government companies directors etc. Every day you open the news paper there's a new scandal. Think of that.

So I really wish I was in USA, paying for every penny your government wants for labor and taxes. Not only it's WAY cheaper, you guys actually get what you pay for, meaning you do receive good education in public schools, you do receive good health on your public hospitals (I know they charge you but if you can't pay they will still heal you) and you do have good security on your streats (generally speaking, I know).

We are pretty spoiled here, its true.

[Old School 626]

It does. The guy in China probably makes at most $5/day. The Union machinist makes 50+ times that per day, not including benefits, pensions, sick days, 401K, etc.

Don't forget the regulatory environment, benefits and taxation.

[cockerpunk]

They(China) make everything we buy and use, and they hold most of our debt. Think they set it up that way? Think they read the ART OF WAR? Make no mistake, China is our enemy and they have us right where they want us. How can a country wage a war with THE major super power, with no money, no reserves, no means of production, and no debtors willing to support us in a conflict. Wars are decided by money, and we are trillions in the whole while China has a surplus.

China would clean our slate in a conflict. They have huge reserves in, gold, silver, oil, coal, iron ore............ We have nothing in comparison because we sold our reserves to them. Ya our lovely system allowed a few money hungry people to destroy our ability to defend ourselves, and put every tax payer $100,000 in the whole.

Further more OSHA has destroyed the small workplace, just like the modern union. They once had there purposes but now they just make the work place more expensive to operate. If you saw the list of things they can fine a General contractor for you would laugh. Manufacturing jobs need OSHA but not small home run businesses. Also unions are fighting the wrong people. If they stop asking the companies for more money and put there efforts into changing the political problems causing us to need higher wages(Inflation), then i would support unions.

The only incentive to keep manufacturing here in the US is to pass laws that would make it more expensive to make things anywhere but here. Money talks and we all know what walks. So as long as we have this capitalistic system, the lowest bidder will almost always win. Also we dont have a capitalistic system, those types of systems dont bail out failing businesses. They let them fail and allow the smaller company to advance, (survival of the fittest). I wont even say the type of system we have in practice. The bailouts only served to show us who controls the country, and its not the people. So as long as big business is running the country, they will continue to do what is most profitable for them and screw us in the process.

my 2 cents


why would you get in a war with someone you are making so much money off of?

art of war? more like good business sense.

[hill160881]

what money? We owe them trillions.

[CatoRockwell]

I'm all in favor of a complete free market, NO social services, period. NO regulations by government. Let the free market of employees decide which business to work for based off of who offers the best benefits. Companies that offer better benefits will attract higher quality employees.

That said, a war with China isn't so simple, they may be the largest manufacturer, but we are still the largest Food exporter on the planet, especially Meat.

I disagree about OSHA, it shouldn't exist. Let the free market determine workplace conditions, if there is a manufacturer that doesn't take care of its employees, inevitably a competitor will arise that does.

[mpsd]

I'm all in favor of a complete free market, NO social services, period. NO regulations by government. Let the free market of employees decide which business to work for based off of who offers the best benefits. Companies that offer better benefits will attract higher quality employees..

That's kinda anarchist, I think. And it may lead to newer, bigger problems.


That said, a war with China isn't so simple, they may be the largest manufacturer, but we are still the largest Food exporter on the planet, especially Meat. .

I think Brazil is ahead of USA when it comes to food production and exports.


I disagree about OSHA, it shouldn't exist. Let the free market determine workplace conditions, if there is a manufacturer that doesn't take care of its employees, inevitably a competitor will arise that does.

Remember that every country have uneducated people who will work for less than nothing.

[OPBN]

While it may seem like everything is made in China, I am pretty sure that the U.S. is still the worlds largest manufacturere. I didnt think it was estimated that China would actually surpass us until 2016-2017....

[Frizzle Fry]

While it may seem like everything is made in China, I am pretty sure that the U.S. is still the worlds largest manufacturere. I didnt think it was estimated that China would actually surpass us until 2016-2017....

2012, and they're not far behind now. As of two years ago the estimation was 2020 and a few years before that it was 2030. Before 2000 there was no concern at all. The issue is that Chinese consumers aren't buying what they make OR what we make (gee Mr. Prez, I thought you promised they would) and the rate at which production has grown there.

Stateside, companies like WalMart sell mostly cheap chinese products to US citizens who can't afford better, all the while signing lucrative contracts with small(er) US businesses until they get almost exclusive production rights, then, a year later, offering the pennies on the dollar to said business knowing they'll have to take it because they've lost their presence on the market and can't survive at all without them. At that point either the company folds or starts outsourcing. Voila, now you've got a company full of broke guys looking for cheap clothes and food. WalMart is invested in keeping people poor - that's their market - and their means is cheap chinese production. It really is a war.

[Daze]

what money? We owe them trillions.
We owe the Chinese less than one trillion dollars.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

We owe foreign nations, as a group, around 30% of the national debt. The rest is held in the country.

If I'm not mistaken, the amount owed per citizen is closer to 50,000 than 100,000.

He was asking why China would go to war with us if we owe them so much money. You can't get money from someone you kill. It's why bookies only break bones.

[cockerpunk]

We owe the Chinese less than one trillion dollars.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

We owe foreign nations, as a group, around 30% of the national debt. The rest is held in the country.

If I'm not mistaken, the amount owed per citizen is closer to 50,000 than 100,000.

He was asking why China would go to war with us if we owe them so much money. You can't get money from someone you kill. It's why bookies only break bones.

shhhhhhhh, no facts and fear mongering is way more fun then reality.


the free market obession is also very dangerious. i have no problems with the free market, but the free market cares about one thing and one things only - profit. the issue with the free market religion is that poeple mistake profit, for morally just. the free market doesn't care about morals, it doesn't care about right or wrong, it cares about profit. slavery? fine. poeple dying in workplaces? fine. child labor? fine. environemental polution? fine.

these are all things that cut into profits heavily, and it all things that we pay for every single day when we buy goods.

i for one and perfectly fine with that. i'd rather live in a nicer town, with clean water, good air, and where children get educations rather then have to work, even if im poorer for it. being the richest man in a garbage dump is not an appealing position for me.

[OPBN]

And the Chinese people are beginning to ask for higher wages and better working conditions. Even now, manufacturing costs in the coastal cities are beginning to rise, so factories are having to move farther and farther inland. This in turn is diminishing the cost savings as transportation costs rise. From my understanding, at some point the labor begins to be less and less of a factor as more of the per unit cost is taken up by fixed raw materials costs. China is actually starting to lose more and more manufacturing to places like Indonesia and Vietnam.

[hill160881]

We owe the Chinese less than one trillion dollars.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

We owe foreign nations, as a group, around 30% of the national debt. The rest is held in the country.

If I'm not mistaken, the amount owed per citizen is closer to 50,000 than 100,000.

He was asking why China would go to war with us if we owe them so much money. You can't get money from someone you kill. It's why bookies only break bones.

Wait, did not China over the last three years loan us over a trillion for our bailouts? I dont trust that the government is totally honest with its books. They tell us what will upset us the least, and what melds with all there other lies.


And its $100,000 per tax payer since 1/2 the country does not pay into the system. I dont count the ones that dont help pay the bills.

We(the USA) dont repay our debts, we just shift them around. How long have we been running in the hole? Up to like 12 trillion now. Has that number been Zero in anyones lifetime.

My point is that China is in the best position with money in the bank and we are in the whole.

[murdercrow]

http://www.haascnc.com/CNCMag/images/covers_md/v10i34.jpg


This is a very interesting discussion. No really.
But is that Kristin Kreutz?!

[leloup]

shhhhhhhh, no facts and fear mongering is way more fun then reality.


the free market obession is also very dangerious. i have no problems with the free market, but the free market cares about one thing and one things only - profit. the issue with the free market religion is that poeple mistake profit, for morally just. the free market doesn't care about morals, it doesn't care about right or wrong, it cares about profit. slavery? fine. poeple dying in workplaces? fine. child labor? fine. environemental polution? fine.

these are all things that cut into profits heavily, and it all things that we pay for every single day when we buy goods.

i for one and perfectly fine with that. i'd rather live in a nicer town, with clean water, good air, and where children get educations rather then have to work, even if im poorer for it. being the richest man in a garbage dump is not an appealing position for me.

You are a little incorrect. The free market, of which the US is the closest example doesn't have people dying in workplaces, child labor, and environmental pollution with out heavy government recourse. China may have those things, but are far from anything resembling a free market. Profit does care about morals (since we are personifying a thing that doesn't think, feel, etc.) If your customers will not buy a product because of manufacturing methods (happened many times in the past), you don't make money. Profit adjusts to the societies views and morality.

[sjrtk]

Well the way things look, it took the US approx, 60 years (industrial revolution forward roughly 1900 give or take) to become the manufacturing King of the world, then 30 years (from now back) to lose all of our ability to REALLY compete with the global market. So that is a basic 90 year cycle for our rise and fall. China has rocketed up in the world market since Approx 1972-3 (?). so in 30 years they rocketed to to top, are now realizing what skilled labor cost and are starting to dump it on lower paying groups. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Remember prior to China WE held the bulk of European countries in debt, Trillions of dollars in debt. Yes alot of that was rebuilding after WW2, and war material. But it was OUR industry that supplied them with what was needed to rebuild. We have set our selves up for it now we have to pay the piper and don't like it. But this is something that WILL hit every one and every thing. The faster the rise the harder the fall. We just got an extra kick in the crotch to go with it.

So stop strangling business, either by the Unions, Taxation, wasteful spending, and ridiculous/absurd EPA regulations. I.E. 2 Texas oil refinery will not have there certifications renewed due to noncompliance with EPA regulations that did not exist when they were built and are licensed for 5 more years. Or the refineries in PA and NJ who will be just shut down by the EPA because they are to close to the river (makes it easier to ship the prduct to the rest of the county when your refinery is also a shipping port).

[Daze]

Wait, did not China over the last three years loan us over a trillion for our bailouts? I dont trust that the government is totally honest with its books. They tell us what will upset us the least, and what melds with all there other lies.
I would like to see that referenced somewhere. While I'm sure some dancing is done with money, I don't think they could hide triple the amount of debt they're showing. If we can't believe the published documents to some extent, everything dissolves into conspiracy theories and rumors.

[dahoeb]

Well the way things look, it took the US approx, 60 years (industrial revolution forward roughly 1900 give or take) to become the manufacturing King of the world, then 30 years (from now back) to lose all of our ability to REALLY compete with the global market. So that is a basic 90 year cycle for our rise and fall. China has rocketed up in the world market since Approx 1972-3 (?). so in 30 years they rocketed to to top, are now realizing what skilled labor cost and are starting to dump it on lower paying groups. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Remember prior to China WE held the bulk of European countries in debt, Trillions of dollars in debt. Yes alot of that was rebuilding after WW2, and war material. But it was OUR industry that supplied them with what was needed to rebuild. We have set our selves up for it now we have to pay the piper and don't like it. But this is something that WILL hit every one and every thing. The faster the rise the harder the fall. We just got an extra kick in the crotch to go with it.

So stop strangling business, either by the Unions, Taxation, wasteful spending, and ridiculous/absurd EPA regulations. I.E. 2 Texas oil refinery will not have there certifications renewed due to noncompliance with EPA regulations that did not exist when they were built and are licensed for 5 more years. Or the refineries in PA and NJ who will be just shut down by the EPA because they are to close to the river (makes it easier to ship the prduct to the rest of the county when your refinery is also a shipping port).


you make good points and I agree with you 100%. But something to keep in mind is that China still has approximately 21 million in poverty and 30 million that are just above the poverty line. Plus they have 1+ billion people that have to be supported. Their economy may surpass ours but the weight of their population will continue to be a liability for them.

[sjrtk]

you make good points and I agree with you 100%. But something to keep in mind is that China still has approximately 21 million in poverty and 30 million that are just above the poverty line. Plus they have 1+ billion people that have to be supported. Their economy may surpass ours but the weight of their population will continue to be a liability for them.

Thats why i am looking at there rocket to the top like i am. They have to export the labor (like we did) faster to try to keep up with the burden of there population. Either way it will be brutal when they tank, after they'll give the facade of success for as long as they can.

[CatoRockwell]

That's kinda anarchist, I think. And it may lead to newer, bigger problems.



I think Brazil is ahead of USA when it comes to food production and exports.



Remember that every country have uneducated people who will work for less than nothing.

Exactly I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. ;) The United States is still the largest exporter of Meat in the world. I don't mind if people are willing to work for less than nothing, that is their individual choice.

There will always be social/economic problems, this world cannot be perfect. However, I choose to live in an imperfect world where my individual sovereignty isn't violated rather than a collectivist world where bureaucrats tell me how I should run my business and limit my potential.

Government doesn't exist to wipe our chins and tell us what to do with our liberties, it exists to safeguard those liberties nothing more. Despite what many wish to believe this is a growing sentiment in the USA & other parts of the world where we get to see just how effective the Nanny state isn't.

[dahoeb]

Exactly I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. ;) The United States is still the largest exporter of Meat in the world. I don't mind if people are willing to work for less than nothing, that is their individual choice.

There will always be social/economic problems, this world cannot be perfect. However, I choose to live in an imperfect world where my individual sovereignty isn't violated rather than a collectivist world where bureaucrats tell me how I should run my business and limit my potential.

Government doesn't exist to wipe our chins and tell us what to do with our liberties, it exists to safeguard those liberties nothing more. Despite what many wish to believe this is a growing sentiment in the USA & other parts of the world where we get to see just how effective the Nanny state isn't.

Well said buddy.

[cockerpunk]

You are a little incorrect. The free market, of which the US is the closest example doesn't have people dying in workplaces, child labor, and environmental pollution with out heavy government recourse. China may have those things, but are far from anything resembling a free market. Profit does care about morals (since we are personifying a thing that doesn't think, feel, etc.) If your customers will not buy a product because of manufacturing methods (happened many times in the past), you don't make money. Profit adjusts to the societies views and morality.

right, we regulate the free market, and that is why we don't have those bad things. the free market as a whole however, does not have any problems with those things. thus the need for regulation. i am in favor of that.

centrally planed economies like china was (they are free market in principal right now), is also nutoriously bad at these things as well, look at CCCP ...

[dahoeb]

right, we regulate the free market, and that is why we don't have those bad things. the free market as a whole however, does not have any problems with those things. thus the need for regulation. i am in favor of that.

centrally planed economies like china was (they are free market in principal right now), is also nutoriously bad at these things as well, look at CCCP ...


Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.

[halB]

right, we regulate the free market, and that is why we don't have those bad things. the free market as a whole however, does not have any problems with those things. thus the need for regulation. i am in favor of that.

centrally planed economies like china was (they are free market in principal right now), is also nutoriously bad at these things as well, look at CCCP ...


HEY! Centrally planned economies can't be all bad. Russia was the only country to actually expand their GDP during the Great Depression...


//because it's really easy to expand from 0 to .02.
///because they had never built tractors before and there was a market for tractors.

[halB]

Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.


FOCUS buddy. You're all over the place. Let's just list some bull regulations that everyone can agree need to be repealed.

For instance, did you know that US businessmen cannot bribe foreign officials in foreign countries? That's ridiculous. A lot of foreign countries run on bribes.

Did you also know that France is perhaps the most competitive nation for international trade?

[cockerpunk]

Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.

just laws, yeah, exactly.

my posts were in opposition to the "free market should control all" religion-like posts here. its pretty obvious we agree.

[dahoeb]

FOCUS buddy. You're all over the place. Let's just list some bull regulations that everyone can agree need to be repealed.

For instance, did you know that US businessmen cannot bribe foreign officials in foreign countries? That's ridiculous. A lot of foreign countries run on bribes.

Did you also know that France is perhaps the most competitive nation for international trade?


Congratulations, "buddy", you can actually find laws and rules that make sense, pm me your address and I'll send you a cookie. Or better, you should rattle off some other laws that are good, like the laws against rape and murder or even child abuse.

Anyways, please show me where I'm "all over the place". I simply stated that there is such a thing as EXCESSIVE REGULATION. I guess you disagree with that? In fact, I even said that SOME laws and regs are good. But when you start getting "excessive" laws and regs, like ridiculous "luxury" taxes on things like cars which cost over 25g, like in California, you'll see a net business loss over a 5 year period in that state (since 05'), even at times when most states show positive growth. In fact, most of those businesses aren't going bankrupt or shutting down, most of them are simply leaving, many going to Texas, Colorado and Az. (85 businesses moved out in the first 6 months of 2010 alone)

And using France as an example of ANYTHING to be striven for is just an insult. When was the last France mattered in anything. I'm not suprised at all that they're doing well with international trade, they're the same "allies" who were "trading" NVG's to Iraq before our invasion, and they're the same "allies" "trading" warships to our other "friends" in Russia.

[going_home]

Anyone else notice even after all these elegant dissertations the OP still has only 1 post ?









:ninja:









I forgot to say one thing in my previous post.......









:rolleyes:









In before the lock !









:tard:

[dahoeb]

Anyone else notice even after all these elegant dissertations the OP still has only 1 post ?


:tard:

wow...hmmm....

[Frizzle Fry]

since 1/2 the country does not pay into the system.

Just the ones who use the system least. Any the ones who pay the most (by % and quantity) almost not at all.

[CatoRockwell]

Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.

I advocate it's return ;)

Slavery is against a free market system, indentured servitude, however, isn't and I'm in favor of it. If someone wants to sell themselves into slavery then who am I to stand in their way?

The problem with people who say "there's nothing wrong with regulation, it's just being done wrong" is that every single person has a different idea of what "good regulation" is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on it, what they are not entitled to is to force that opinion down my throat when it's my business. The true uninhibited free market is the best form of regulation. You provide a crappy product, people stop buying it, you go out of business. You don't take care of your employees and a competitor does, you will quickly find your most skilled people leaving to greener pastures or unionizing. There is a natural consequence to every business decision, we don't need the government jumping in and making a ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL regulation. The moment we start down that slippery slope we get what we have today: A bunch of uneducated bureaucrats & puppet politicians who now make rules that benefit some and punish others.

I'll take my chances with the free market thank you.

[murdercrow]

This is a very interesting discussion. No really.
But is that Kristin Kreutz?!

I had a very important question...

[dahoeb]

I advocate it's return ;)

Slavery is against a free market system, indentured servitude, however, isn't and I'm in favor of it. If someone wants to sell themselves into slavery then who am I to stand in their way?

The problem with people who say "there's nothing wrong with regulation, it's just being done wrong" is that every single person has a different idea of what "good regulation" is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on it, what they are not entitled to is to force that opinion down my throat when it's my business. The true uninhibited free market is the best form of regulation. You provide a crappy product, people stop buying it, you go out of business. You don't take care of your employees and a competitor does, you will quickly find your most skilled people leaving to greener pastures or unionizing. There is a natural consequence to every business decision, we don't need the government jumping in and making a ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL regulation. The moment we start down that slippery slope we get what we have today: A bunch of uneducated bureaucrats & puppet politicians who now make rules that benefit some and punish others.

I'll take my chances with the free market thank you.

In principle I agree with you 100%; the whole "regs and govt is good, it's just being done wrong" argument is the same thing people use to say in favor of any tyrannical, centrally planned govt. "You just need an enlightened King/Czar/Govt Panel to run things".

I wouldn't trust these filthy politicians to babysit my house for a weekend let alone run an entire country. As far as I'm concerned, the only purpose of the federal government is to protect the borders, US assets abroad (US shipping lanes/merchant ships, US embassies/consulates, stuff like that). For everything else, I'd let the local governments handle it, thats why they're in place.

However, so much of the population is so dependent on the wonderful welfare state thats been created (and god knows civilization won't exist without the trusty hand of govt guiding us) I believe that the US is too far gone to roll back all the "progress" over the past 120 years. So I gotta aim for the next best thing and hope to just to have the current regulations stripped down to the very basics necessary to provide basic employee/customer safety. I do recognize though, that this would eventually lead to wonderful organizations like OSHA, the EPA, FDA, and most of the other alphabet agencies eventually.


As far as market manipulation, bailing out select businesses, forcing people to purchase a product (healthcare), regulating the internet, affirmative action, the welfare state in general, I'm hugely opposed to it. The war on hunger, the war on drugs, the war on poverty; not a single one is even remotely successful and has only served to expand government. I long to see the day in which somebody comes crawling to the Feds asking for a subsidy or any other type of handout only to have the POTUS tell them, "Sorry, that's not my job."

I actually remember reading an article about some obscure president from the late 1800's (Cleveland I think)...but a farmer from Oklahoma mailed him, asking for Fed assistance and a subsidy after his large farm had been devastated by drought and dust storms. The POTUS mailed back an absolutely scorn filled letter, shaming the farmer for having to gull to ask the Feds to get involved in something that was not their responsibility and for basically compromising the dignity of resourceful, full grown men everywhere who pick themselves up. You would NEVER have a response like this nowadays. It's truly hard to believe that the govt was EVER ran like this.

Not to get off on too much of a tangent though: but a part of me believes that a population gets the govt that they deserve. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, the Kennedy's, Barnie Frank....they don't vote themselves in office, their constituents do (you can probably lay some of the blame on crooked district structuring though....). Congressman like them represent the ideals of millions, otherwise they wouldn't be elected decade after decade. Unfortunately theres a lot of Americans that love sucking from the Govt teet and are scared to death of actually having to be adults. This is the culture we live in. Just look at Wisconsin.....

[CatoRockwell]

If you believe the system is too far gone to fix, then the only solution is to do as the founding father's did and secede.

I'm not opposed to this idea.

You are right, too many people want the system we have, but thats not the question. The question is: Do they have the right to force that tyranny on you or me? If not, then we must either fix or disentangle ourselves from this system.

[cockerpunk]

The moment we start down that slippery slope we get what we have today: A bunch of uneducated bureaucrats & puppet politicians who now make rules that benefit some and punish others.

i'd raise you with we have a public which niether cares, nor even knows teh first thing about governement regulations and there effect on your daily life. the EPA is a perfect example. they get crap all the time from all sides, and yet the EPA and the regulations it enforces are some of the best written, and most wildy sucessful regulations out there. anyone educated in complaince with the EPA knows that thos regulations effect EVERYONEs daily lives, and health. like fishing? like hunting? you better like the EPA, they are the ones that make that possible. without them the fish you catch would either not exist or be toxic and filled with heavy metals. like smog free cities? better like the EPA. they make sure NOx and SOx and mercury don't fill your lungs with every breath. like not havign acid rain? same thing .... it could even get to the point like china, a perfect example of a free market industrial society without environemntal regulation, and there children die every day from just playing outside. why? heavy metal posioning. the health effects of environmental protection are estimated to cost china more money in healthcare then it would cost to enforce good envornmental policy. this is a key reason why china is stiffening its eviornemental policys, it costs to much to not have them.

it all goes back to public understanding and education. step 1: we all need to agree that there needs to be SOME kind of regulation. in an industrial society where a single chemical accident can cause decades of health problems (death, cancer ...), this should be obivous. step 2: we need to deal with the experts and there data and not politicans or political dogma to make SMART regulations. there are plenty of smart regulations, and there are plenty of dumb ones.

[BigEvil]

like fishing? like hunting? you better like the EPA, they are the ones that make that possible.


Hmmm... I seem to recall hunting and fishing being around A LOT longer than the EPA. :tard:

[cockerpunk]

Hmmm... I seem to recall hunting and fishing being around A LOT longer than the EPA. :tard:

yeah, before industrialization. now we use so many toxic chemicals to sustain our daily lives, that they would easily destory what is left of our waterways if left unregulated.

the EPA regulates mercury. coal and pretty much everything we burn for power has mercury in it. this goes into the air, and eventually coems down in the rain, and pools in lakes and rivers. this is probably the number one contamination of waterways in rural areas, and it has gotten so bad in some places fishing is banned in many lakes in norther minnesota becuase of it. this is a key reason why mercury regulations have gotten tighter, becuase it gets everywhere when you burn coal. EVERYWHERE. its also nearly impossible clean up.

its not even worth starting on heavy metal and SOx and NOx polution controls in light of that obvious example.

now, in an age before industrialization, there is almost no need at all for environemtnal potection. but in the days where even common household products are produced with dangerious chemicals (which they are), that makes any production facility capable of cuasing massive fallouts, health problems, and even death.

heres a great example - chrome plating. pretty commonplace thing right? ends up on all sorts of stuff. chrome plating includes at least 6 chemicals which will kill you. do you want these poeple just dumping them? burning them? even if that is ok with you, can you see the problems that will happen if that leaches into the aquafers? or pools in lakes?

we have these regulations becuase the cost of what will happen if left unreglated is far higher then the PITA cuased by regulating it.

[BigEvil]

IIRC, the EPA was created in the early 70's buy the Nixon administraion. The country survied the industrial revolution, the total-war mobilizations of WWI & WWII, the post WWII boom, the 50's, the 60's, including the Hippy-stink of the late 60s - all without an EPA.

[cockerpunk]

IIRC, the EPA was created in the early 70's buy the Nixon administraion. The country survied the industrial revolution, the total-war mobilizations of WWI & WWII, the post WWII boom, the 50's, the 60's, including the Hippy-stink of the late 60s - all without an EPA.

ever herd of how technology advances? you know how much our lifestyles have changed since the post war era? all that technology is both complex to manufacture and costly to run.

this is also before widespread electronics manufacturing, widespread optical manufaturing, advanced polymers, composits .... you know, all that high tech stuff they don't do overseas ... also by far the most dangerious stuff.

also, the country has been averaging an increase in electrical useage incraese by about 10% per year, which means we have more then quadrupled the amount of electrical usage since the post war era.

our lifestyles have changed, technology changes, and higher tech stuff becomes mainstream, these problems are only going to get worse.



but hey, if you want to get rid of the EPA, just go check out china. plenty of non-regulation there, and look how sucessful that has been :eek:

[BigEvil]

ever herd of how technology advances? you know how much our lifestyles have changed since the post war era? all that technology is both complex to manufacture and costly to run.

:

Actually it funny you mention this point. As the technology to manufacture advances, so does the technology to do so both more efficiently and cleanly.

BTW, im sure you 'herd', but there already is a perfectly clean, minimally polluting source of energy already available that the tree huggers have made it almost impossible to implement.

[breg]

Well, avoiding all the political dissertations, and getting back to the DYE going out of business:
I seriously doubt that DYE will ever completely disappear. They have too tight a strangle-hold on the market for soft goods, and even though I am not a fan of their guns, they are pretty popular.
But, if you want proof there is this to consider: show me ONE DYE gun that retains its value the way AGD guns do.

The DM series just seem too top heavy to me. I have just never been a fan, and the NT series just does not do a lot for me. I mean yeah the tool-less sticky grips are nice, but the thing that sends me for a loop is that the image that it puts in my mind is that you must need to get into the grip frame a lot if the designers added that design feature. (Just kidding)

But, in the end, I am not gonna knock someone for picking DYE over another gun. It is a personal choice. I just think that there are so many other better choices for the money out there; both quality and performance wise. I mean look at the G6R: 3/4 the price, better efficiency, and easier to maintain.

Or another example: The GEO2. The gun is simpler, comes stock with a screen as opposed to blinking lights, and has a tool-less field strip. Yes, it does have a lower efficiency than the DMs or the NTs, but it is in my opinion a better firing gun.

And, finally, my favorite example: The Ripper Victory. $1500 will get you a better preforming gun: faster, better efficiency, definitely more limited (1 of 500), will hold its value far better, and has better support for the gun.

[cockerpunk]

Actually it funny you mention this point. As the technology to manufacture advances, so does the technology to do so both more efficiently and cleanly.

BTW, im sure you 'herd', but there already is a perfectly clean, minimally polluting source of energy already available that the tree huggers have made it almost impossible to implement.

of course the technology to make it clean must advance.

why?

becuase of enforcement of the laws.

do you seriously think that companies would invest billions in something that doesn't make them a single penny? do they do this out the goodness of there hearts? lets look at the rest of the world and see if companies do this in non-regulated nations. china? nope. Thailand? nope. India? gonna go with a f*ck no on that one ....

sorry man, without enforcement of sound regulations, corporations have not, and will not police themselves. the free market cares about one thing - profit. it doesn't care about anything else.




as far as power, yes of course. nuclear has always been the solution. i have written a 20+ paper on nuclear power and just how advanced it is today (thanks to france ... lol!). im no tree hugger, im an engineer. i dont think its the tree huggers per se, there is more then widespread opposition to nuclear ever since 3 mile island. as always, the public needs education on just how safe the gen5 plants are, and the gen6 plants are gonna be brilliant.

[ProblemKinder]

Actually it funny you mention this point. As the technology to manufacture advances, so does the technology to do so both more efficiently and cleanly.

BTW, im sure you 'herd', but there already is a perfectly clean, minimally polluting source of energy already available that the tree huggers have made it almost impossible to implement.

i actually laughed out loud when I read that. do you think that companies are taking it upon themselves to put money and resources into researching ways to do their work more cleanly? um, no. they're not. more efficiently maybe, just to lower their own costs, but they don't give a crap about doing it more cleanly, unless they have to give a crap (regulation).

companies will always do things as cheaply as legally possible, (and sometimes even cheaper, until they get caught).

[Ando]

do you think that companies are taking it upon themselves to put money and resources into researching ways to do their work more cleanly? um, no. they're not. more efficiently maybe, just to lower their own costs, but they don't give a crap about doing it more cleanly, unless they have to give a crap (regulation).
Reason why the EPA was created, to shove it down their throats to comply and fine them out their tails for not doing so...

Only thing with that is these few million dollar fines are a joke to these companies that make billions. That's one thing that needs changing.


companies will always do things as cheaply as legally possible, (and sometimes even cheaper, until they get caught).
or blow **** up... BP FTW :rolleyes:

[BigEvil]

You guys are not getting it. You do NOT need a bureacracy of unelected do-gooders to establish legal guidelines. These officials are unaccountable to almost anyone, and this sort of regulating was meant to be left to the state (and later federal after the commerce clause) legislatures.

[M98Punk]

I've read most of this post and find it very interesting so I have reached into my pocket to pull out my $.02

I think that the free market is a great system, as is democracy even the quasi version America has. BUT the thing that screws the pooch is the lack of free neutral information. Even in the internet world it is very true for an unbiased report to get out and circulate. Not to mention the wonderful meme of, "I don't want the facts to get in the way of how I feel"

This nation has been bought and sold by big companies, I daresay that the framers never thought that a business would be able to buy and sell nations, but that is the situation we live in. I have no idea how to fix that problem BUT I think one way to help would be campaign finance reform, which gives people a chance to run and win an office without having to whore themselves out to the money holders. Maybe even elect an honest uncrazy politician now and again.

And on a final note we need to get some well directed shame back in this country! Seriously we have had what 3? generations of people living off welfare? These people need to be ridiculed and stigmatized. Harsh? Yes but come on, these people are parasites, am I bitter? Hell yes when I bust my *** and my wife works herself to the bone so we can pay our bills and student loans back and then I find out that some of my students get "income" and talk about it with pride, like the government is paying their parents to be awesome. They have no idea that it means their parents are so worthless they can't support their kids. Not to mention the dumb *** stuff they buy, kids have a new 360 and video games at the beginning of every month but never have clothes that fit.

Or when you hear about how much money they get to spend on buying food. Seriously when I found out that a woman with 3 kids gets almost $800 to spend a month on food... we are lucky to spend half that and we actually work. But we don't what to hurt their self esteem so we don't call them food-stamps anymore and look they have a cool debit card so they can feel like they are real citizens adding to society and participating in capitalism when in reality they are vultures wearing eagle skinned clothing

[cockerpunk]

You guys are not getting it. You do NOT need a bureacracy of unelected do-gooders to establish legal guidelines. These officials are unaccountable to almost anyone, and this sort of regulating was meant to be left to the state (and later federal after the commerce clause) legislatures.

that is just a cop-out though.

federal level, state level .... either one is government. plus most states do have more strict regulations then the EPA, i know the minnesota EPA has very very strict mercury regulations compared to down south bceasue of all the lakes we have. and why would you ever want to put this back in the hands of congress? i'd rather the regulations were written and inforced by those who know the science, not bumbling idiots who only care about election year and public opinion.

the point is, as bull sh*t as regulation is, we have to do it. i know, it sucks (i work for one the largest manufacturing companies in the world, believe me i know), but the dangers of attempting go without it are terrifying.

[Army]

Well, this thread has seriously jumped the tracks.