Can the sear be removed from the system? I think so.

[hill160881]

First a picture of the test sear.

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/102_1214.jpg

[hill160881]

Well the proof is in the lack of chuffing and every shot hits :dance: :dance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hAf5KH5Qc

[captian pinky]

oooo man u are awesome.

could this led to removing the rail all together and using a mpa3 to push directly on the on/off?

so did you just use cut the front of the sear off and assemble?

or did you do something to the noid?

[DevilMan]

:wow:

DM

[fierymartel]

nice job!

[hill160881]

oooo man u are awesome.

could this led to removing the rail all together and using a mpa3 to push directly on the on/off?

so did you just use cut the front of the sear off and assemble?

or did you do something to the noid?


I supose one could loose the rail with this idea. The goal is to loose the sear all together and push up on the on off pin directly, as you said. I am just doing it this way to test the theory before I get to far into it.

The noid is open instead of closed. It is a different noid.

I am not even sure that this will crono and all that, but we will see. I will shoot it tomorrow for the second test. :D

[hill160881]

The main hope is to get better efficiency. But I think the bolt and power-tube will last way longer without a sear. Also it would make running eye wires less risky.

My worry is that the tuning will have to be so perfect that this will only be a mod for really experienced mag owners that totally understand how it works.

[StygShore]

making a mag into a invert Mini :)


Styg

[hill160881]

Between this mod and the sleeper eye mod I came up with, it is looking and acting more and more like a mini. Or does the mini look like a Mag? :D

[vf-xx]

if you get confident in these mods, you can move back to a lvl7 bolt and pick up some efficiency there.

[93klauss]

The main hope is to get better efficiency. But I think the bolt and power-tube will last way longer without a sear. Also it would make running eye wires less risky.

My worry is that the tuning will have to be so perfect that this will only be a mod for really experienced mag owners that totally understand how it works.





Maybe a NOOB question, what happens that causes the bolt and power tube wear? What eventually happens?

[georgeyew]

I have a sear that is worn (the part that was removed in the photo) and my mag will not shoot reliably. I don't know what to say.

[hill160881]

Maybe a NOOB question, what happens that causes the bolt and power tube wear? What eventually happens?

The bolt rubs against the sear every time the gun shoots. This is a metal to metal contact. The bolt only lasts about 150,000 rounds before needing replaced due to this contact.

[luke]

oooo man u are awesome.

could this led to a mpa3 to push directly on the on/off?



Or, what about removing the on/off together and replacing it with a pneumatic one.

[hill160881]

Here was the first shooting video. It was working perfectly until I turned the velocity up. Without the LPR wrench to turn it up to, it started to leak down the barrel after the hopper. I turned The lpr up after and shot some more and leak gone.

Now that i have seen it will function it is time to go all nuts and start building a prototype to try and use in a few weeks.

I believe the main problem I am running into is that the ram vents to slow, causing me to run a very fine line between input pressure from the valve and the pressure the LPR is set at. So I will install a etek QEV on it and see if that makes a difference. The second thing I dont like is that the etek 2 board will only go up to 15 ms dwell :mad: I wanted to start at 20.

Well the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xCVzqjxVE0

[hill160881]

Or, what about removing the on/off together and replacing it with a pneumatic one.


That would be way cool. I think that is out of my abilities , for now :D

[kcombs9]

so this raises the questions, why was that part of the sear even there? TK if you see this Id like to know AGD reasoning behind that part of the design. maybe some issues we don't see yet?

[StygShore]

so this raises the questions, why was that part of the sear even there? TK if you see this Id like to know AGD reasoning behind that part of the design. maybe some issues we don't see yet?


simple enough - mags were Mechanical guns in the pre electro era, and their electro guns still have the ability to work in mechanical mode

not to mention 25+ years ago noids that small didnt exist


Styg

[kcombs9]

simple enough - mags were Mechanical guns in the pre electro era, and their electro guns still have the ability to work in mechanical mode

not to mention 25+ years ago noids that small didnt exist


Styg

so your saying this wouldn't work if it was a mechanical mod? don't see why that would matter, I was under the impression you need the front part of the sear (where I hooks onto the bolt) to keep the bolt from going forward, but if this works with a noid I don't see why it wouldn't work in mechanical as well.

I'm not questioning the use of the full sear, just the part that Hill cut off

[DevilMan]

I have a sear that is worn (the part that was removed in the photo) and my mag will not shoot reliably. I don't know what to say.

Because on your marker you still need the sear. It's not a simple take it out and forget about it. You still have to have something to hold the on/off pin in place at the right length and such.

(YMMV)

BUT I do know that if it's worn, if you can get me a pic of it I may trade you one out.

DM

[DevilMan]

so your saying this wouldn't work if it was a mechanical mod? don't see why that would matter, I was under the impression you need the front part of the sear (where I hooks onto the bolt) to keep the bolt from going forward, but if this works with a noid I don't see why it wouldn't work in mechanical as well.

Think of the ramp on the front of the sear that Hill cut off. Think of the interaction of that and the on/off pin. Think of the pin being down, and then being pushed back up to shut off the air flow to the bolt, until the bolt can make it back to a lock position as the bolt comes back the ramp of the sear. Then the air is shut off as the bolt comes back and then is released to shoot again after it latches, but it can't go because the hook on the sear has bolt held in place.

Then you pull the trigger, the sear drops out of place and away it goes. The air flow passes through and the cycle repeats. You know when it's out of time and you shoot and it leaks down the barrel, so you have to hold the trigger to get it to stop. You are closing the on/off. Then you adjust your sear rod length accordingly.

If it didn't need to be there, I'm sure it wouldn't be. Keep in mind that Hill is tinkering as he said on fine line between functional and disfunctional (on more than one level actually :rofl: )

YMMV,

DM

[Ando]

I believe someone had quoted Mr. Kaye not too long ago (last week or two) saying the front part of the sear was also a safety device. So the gun wouldn't runaway with nothing to stop it. Just think about it. Say the spring snaps or the back part of the sear goes, which both have happen. There's nothing there to stop the bolt. You would either have to shut the air off or let it run it's course. :rofl:

In this setup. A spring snapping would just cause a huge barrel leak but if the back sear would happen to go. You would have a run away marker.

[DevilMan]

I believe someone had quoted Mr. Kaye not too long ago (last week or two) saying the front part of the sear was also a safety device. So the gun wouldn't runaway with nothing to stop it. Just think about it. Say the spring snaps or the back part of the sear goes. There's nothing there to stop the bolt. You would either have to shut the air off or let it run it's course. :rofl:

So you are saying that TK invented RAMPING as well??? SAWEEEET!!!! :clap:

:spit_take

DM

[vf-xx]

so your saying this wouldn't work if it was a mechanical mod? don't see why that would matter, I was under the impression you need the front part of the sear (where I hooks onto the bolt) to keep the bolt from going forward, but if this works with a noid I don't see why it wouldn't work in mechanical as well.

I'm not questioning the use of the full sear, just the part that Hill cut off

I think you could get it to work mechanically, but it'd be difficult. Since Hill's Mod effectively reverses the sear cycling pattern, if you piped it all up purely pneumatically, whenever you held the trigger down, your bolt would stay forward and you'd vent gas down the barrel continuously.

You'd have to use a pneumatic pulse switch to control the dwell of the on/off ram. Someone on MCB was designing one a while back, but I don't think they ever actually produced it.

[kcombs9]

I believe someone had quoted Mr. Kaye not too long ago (last week or two) saying the front part of the sear was also a safety device. So the gun wouldn't runaway with nothing to stop it. Just think about it. Say the spring snaps or the back part of the sear goes, which both have happen. There's nothing there to stop the bolt. You would either have to shut the air off or let it run it's course. :rofl:

In this setup. A spring snapping would just cause a huge barrel leak but if the back sear would happen to go. You would have a run away marker.

this is more what I was looking for, thanks!

also what efficiency will be gained? I under stand less ware on bolt ect.

p.s.

Not trying to debunk Hill and his project, I have projects of my own and I'm just trying to understand pro and con of this mod and maybe what I'm doing with my emag and noid.

[luke]

That would be way cool. I think that is out of my abilities , for now :D

Well then, removing the sear all together and installing the MPA directly under the on/off would be an easy mod you can do on your drill press. :D

[fierymartel]

How about removing the on/off assembly, tapping the hole, and then reinserting the top half of the on/off. Then, install perhaps a QEV that is fed from a 2-way solenoid or pneumatic valve?

[fierymartel]

or along those lines......... :cool:

[fierymartel]

I mean, we really just need a piston of some sorts in there, right?

[hill160881]

I believe someone had quoted Mr. Kaye not too long ago (last week or two) saying the front part of the sear was also a safety device. So the gun wouldn't runaway with nothing to stop it. Just think about it. Say the spring snaps or the back part of the sear goes, which both have happen. There's nothing there to stop the bolt. You would either have to shut the air off or let it run it's course. :rofl:

In this setup. A spring snapping would just cause a huge barrel leak but if the back sear would happen to go. You would have a run away marker.


This is the real danger. If something looses pressure it will go full auto until you turn off the air. :D


But like that will ever happen,,,,,,, maybe should not have said that :tard: .

[hill160881]

For now I am going to try to get it playable in this configuration and test the efficiency. If there is no gain at all iI will abandon this project as a fun idea. If there is a gain I will start putting all my Ideas into a marker.

[vf-xx]

This is the real danger. If something looses pressure it will go full auto until you turn off the air. :D


But like that will ever happen,,,,,,, maybe should not have said that :tard: .

Maybe add a 1/4 turn ball valve as an emergency cut off? the ones from Palmers are pressure rated and shouldn't restrict flow.

[Dirge]

An ICE Epic works in a similar manner to this concept. The on/off is held in place by a sliding plate. When the trigger is pulled, the plate slides out, allowing the on/off to open. It however does have another on/off that seals the dump chamber when the trigger is pulled.

Just putting that out there (I love this idea).

[hill160881]

the latest video, Much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAsSNB5xc6I

[jade_monkey07]

i would imagine that it could potentially reduce bolt cycle time once the dwell is tuned properly, less friction. maybe new speed record out of a mag? im looking forward to seeing what comes of this.

[snoopay700]

Teacher, i have a question. Did you make something to fill in the void that was previously the dump chamber? You didn't mention it, but if this was to improve efficiency then it would seem foolish not to.

I've toyed with this idea many times, never had the funds to pull it off though, good on you. :cheers:

[hill160881]

Teacher, i have a question. Did you make something to fill in the void that was previously the dump chamber? You didn't mention it, but if this was to improve efficiency then it would seem foolish not to.

I've toyed with this idea many times, never had the funds to pull it off though, good on you. :cheers:

Not yet. I am just going to see if it plays. Then get a base line on efficiency, to see what improvements come from a smaller shot chamber then different springs....

My theory on the size of the shot chamber is that the chamber size is not as important as the dwell and spring length on the bolt. The amount of air used is related to dwell and pressure not the size of the shot chamber in this set up. We will see if that is the case. maybe a bit of both.

[hill160881]

Last video until i do an efficiency test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88TTHmqky8Y


This is another efficiency mod that has shown limited results, but I may as well. I also put two on it instead of just one.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/102_1222.jpg

[snoopay700]

Not yet. I am just going to see if it plays. Then get a base line on efficiency, to see what improvements come from a smaller shot chamber then different springs....

My theory on the size of the shot chamber is that the chamber size is not as important as the dwell and spring length on the bolt. The amount of air used is related to dwell and pressure not the size of the shot chamber in this set up. We will see if that is the case. maybe a bit of both.
That's what you'd think, but the thing is that you are seeing two losses in the flow from the on/off to the powertube, and those are the losses due to the sudden expansion of the dump chamber, the second is the sudden contraction. If you can make a spacer that makes it one diameter the whole way, you should see a rise in efficiency.

[p8ntbal4me]

Not yet. I am just going to see if it plays. Then get a base line on efficiency, to see what improvements come from a smaller shot chamber then different springs....

My theory on the size of the shot chamber is that the chamber size is not as important as the dwell and spring length on the bolt. The amount of air used is related to dwell and pressure not the size of the shot chamber in this set up. We will see if that is the case. maybe a bit of both.

When your working with a setup like this involving a sear from EP... dwell effects air efficiency on the size of usage on the LPR related to tank capacity, not the valve.

Your right to assume that the ram and dwell effect the efficiency of the valve when you are relating it to MROF or similar.

If dwell is time on/energized, then we can relate that to the solenoid, ram, and LPR. When you talk about those components in relation to the valve, you need to add in factors of the other components and what they take away from the valve, specifically the on off.

Better explained: you have a gap on your mpa3 between the ram and sear. You need some gap for pre-stroke and travel. This is a decrement value to your efficiency of the solenoid sear and lpr. You haven't even pushed on the pin yet to shut the air off and your already loosing battery life, air, and time.
Now the ram starts to push on the sear, so technically your dwell is your setting value PLUS pre-travel. Do you have a spring in the mpa3 still?
If so we need to figure friction. Obvisouly frictionless would be nice but probably not going to happen. Since the on off pin has enough pressure to reset the ram you are going to loose more time in your dwell value due to the mpa3 spring where the solenoid needs to supply enough air to push the ram plus spring friction. Keep in mind that compression and friction increases as the ram extends. Your dwell value is value PLUS spring compression now.
At this point, you haven't even fully cycled a shot yet....

See where this is going?

I think once you figure out what you want to do with the setup Hill, you should revisit the ram and solenoid. Your loosing a lot of time right there and that is what we are talking about when we all say "efficiency ". Personally, I would use a 4-5 way solenoid because they vent the fastest over soneloids without internal QEVs. Adding QEVs to a 4-5way would speed it up that much faster and drop the extra compression you are getting internally from the spool in the solenoid body.

Did you ever pick up one of those 3way solenoids I linked you to couple months back? The ones with the larger coil?
If you are okay with loosing battery power some, you can use a larger coil solenoid and drill out a vent hole for the body to act as a QEV. I know you had your heart set on a smaller 3way to save space. This may be one answer for you.

Could you take some pictures of the internal setup or make a nice diagram in MSpaint so we can see what the cycle looks like from LPR to valve?

[hill160881]

I will lay all the parts out in an expanded format so everyone will see how it is put together and I will try to do a diagram if I can figure it out I use a mac and there is no paint

I kinda follow what you are saying. Yes there is still a spring in the mpa3 so the pressurizing of the ram is slowed by it. But I could not get it to work without it. I tried and without more input pressure it wont cycle without a really long dwell.

I am going to devolumize it after I play it tomorrow.

[hill160881]

Keep in mind the components being used were just used due to there being easily acquired. I am only in this for $50 and a sear that was no good at this point

Once I see if there are any gains I will look for better components for this application.

Edit:OOPS, I left it charged all night. Power on.......pull trigger...........pop. :dance:


Edit: If I could get it to run at 750 pis input pressure it would be better on the efficiency as well.

[MAGpie]

Little late in on this discussion, but do you know what surprises me most about this: That no one thought of it earlier... Think about it, PumpMag. The sear's ONLY function in a pumpmag is to hold the bolt back to overcome the wave-spring... The logical next step should have been, well, the sear has no real purpose then in other configurations... Well, apart from preventing the degassing fart when the air pressure is too low.

Wow... sometimes innovations is just so simple, it is missed altogether.

Nicely done Hill.

[hill160881]

First off, The POS camera died before the first video and wont turn on anymore. :cuss: Time for a real video camera.

A day of testing, 4000+ rounds and some surprising numbers, but not way better. With the gold bolt spring it did not want to crono over 250. With a slightly longer grey spring it cronoed fine.

The most noticeable differences were the accuracy difference between the two markers, and how much smoother the reverse mag shot. The reverse mag is one of the most accurate markers I have ever shot, I played 3 rounds on a hopper and two pods. I never shoot this little amount. It stacks way better at longer distances than my insert marker.

All test were with the same paint and barrel. I rounded all # to the nearest lower pod but none of the setups got into the next pod really.

Reverse Ego mag/level 10- Full 68/45- 1280+- rounds at 285ish

Ego mag/level 10- Full 68/45- 1080+- rounds at 285ish

Ego mag/level 7- full 68/45- 1120+- rounds at 285ish

If the bolt were lighter and the shot chamber were smaller I think I could get another 100+ rounds or so. I also need to try other on off pin lengths, to try to use the plugged level 10 bolt I have . So some tinkering will settle it and it will take its place as my workhorse marker due to its amazing accuracy at longer ranges.

[hill160881]

After the day I put a .007" shorter on off pin in and crono problem solved. I was having a hell of a time with the different spring lengths, pressure from the LPR, and pressure from the valve to get it to crono but no longer. It was the pin.

A quick video to show the progress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6waaxqAjF7k

[XM15]

Lightening the bolt is a good idea. I think you gain alot of things from that. Less recoil/kick lighter spring and lower pressure to operatate. I would flute it like a firearm barrel with 6 or 8 flutes. I would even tree pan the flange on the valve side to shave even more weight. I would think a bolt like that would be at least 30% or more lighter.

[hill160881]

Very good Idea, like taking notches out of the area where the sear grabs?

Something like this? I can always take more off but I already took off 4.5mm on the diameter and cut notches.

It is really light. My scale wont turn on, dam. It makes a noticeable difference in recoil when dry firing.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1425.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1426.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1430.jpg

[hill160881]

The next step is to de-volumeize the shot chamber. Here is the sketch of the insert I want to have Luke make. but I need to figure out a starting point on the % reduction.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1422.jpg

[snoopay700]

Little late in on this discussion, but do you know what surprises me most about this: That no one thought of it earlier... Think about it, PumpMag. The sear's ONLY function in a pumpmag is to hold the bolt back to overcome the wave-spring... The logical next step should have been, well, the sear has no real purpose then in other configurations... Well, apart from preventing the degassing fart when the air pressure is too low.

Wow... sometimes innovations is just so simple, it is missed altogether.

Nicely done Hill.
Actually a few have had this idea throughout the years, myself being one of them, warbeak being another to come to mind, though i'm sure there were many more. The main problem was always time and money, but i'm assuming he found a deal or had the parts on hand.

Hill, i think you'd be better off making it so that it matches the ID of the inlet to the dump chamber, and make it the entire length of the dump chamber. Then you should also make it so it gradually opens up to the ID of the power tube. I think you'll see the greatest increase in efficiency this way.

EDIT: this is what i mean hill, the grey is the insert

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/rebelsk8r700/rtemag_6fps.jpg

[hill160881]

Thanks much.

Actually i am into the Ego mags, and have been making the frames for people. So I had all the parts minus the different noid. That was less than $50. If you have a Star framed Ego mag then all you need so far is the noid. :D But i dont recommend you do this unless you have a passion for making a efficient mag that doesent eat it self. You may go crazy and never achieve it, or both. :tard:

[XM15]

I wasn't actually thinking of notches in the bolt like that. I was thinking of something more like this.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/Bzrkr21/2011-04-18123947.jpg


Its a old foamie bolt before the lvl 7. The stock lvl 7's I have weigh 2 oz this one with the foamie and lightening milling weighs in at 1.6 oz a 20% weight difference. If you want to try it out your welcome to it. The sear edge of the bolt is kind of worn but I think it will work.

[hill160881]

Cant do that with a L 10 because they are so thin. At least that is what the cads drawings show. Good Idea for a Level 7 bolt to take the weight out.

[Newt]

If you can find a vendor who will do real type III hard anodizing, a 7075 aluminum bolt may be a viable option these days.

[Frizzle Fry]

This is the real danger. If something looses pressure it will go full auto until you turn off the air. :D

I'm picturing every scared renter ever when their Tippmann runs low on c02, can't completely recock, and goes full auto. Or anyone who's ever used a Proto SLG (which does the same thing when the tank runs dry) or (god forbid) Proto SLG users who've experience a sear snap. I can't find an SLG animation, but trust me it looks familiar...

[hill160881]

3+ cases and no run away yet. :) (Knocking on wood right now.)

[hill160881]

Ok today was the first real day of play and the only problem i am having is an occasional drop in LPR pressure because the AKA reg is just not up to this task. This causes a hot shot and it brakes the ball in the barrel. So I am putting the pebble on it next week.

In the mean time I thought I would show off the great accuracy that this new firing order produces. At 20 yards it is ball on ball. Keep in mind that I am standing and in simi mode so I have to pull the trigger every time at high rates of fire. Also THIS IS DXS FIELD PAINT. So not the greatest.

At 20 yards and 280 fps I will hit you in the head almost every time, even while ripping :D . It is so accurate that it is scary, All the way out to where they hit the ground. One reason is no more recoil. Devilman got a side by side comparison between my pinstriped baby and the reverse mag, so he can confirm my statements as will this video. :wow: That poor mask.

Notice how silent it is at 20 yards away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9WFby2t74

[Pneumagger]

Thats pretty sick.

Try adding an LP volume chamber. That may halp with the occasional hot shot issue.

So to sum up... you're getting more efficiency, smoother shooting, better accuracy and the only changes are:
1) reverse sear cativation
2) Decreased dump chamber volume
3) correct spring selection and lightened lvl 1o bolt.

[hill160881]

Thats pretty sick.

Try adding an LP volume chamber. That may halp with the occasional hot shot issue.

So to sum up... you're getting more efficiency, smoother shooting, better accuracy and the only changes are:
1) reverse sear cativation
2) Decreased dump chamber volume
3) correct spring selection and lightened lvl 1o bolt.

I have not yet reduced the chamber size but yes. The efficiency is about where a Level 7 clasic mag is right now. That is with a L10. I hope to use a plugged L10 bolt with the reduced shot chamber. My goal is to get it from 1280 to 1500 rounds per 68/45.

It is a fickle beast though. To much or to little pressure on either reg can cause it to not work properly. The input pressure will change things as well, because that is what controls how much pressure is needed by the LPR.

The gold bolt spring is the one I am using again.

[Pneumagger]

I was thinking...

A classic valve with the reg capped and the top of the on off chamber bypassed to the input should behave EXACTLY like your reverse mag valve. You would probably have to pt an RT on/off in the classic valve though.

The pressure feedback regulator on the xvalve (the reason it recharges so quickly) is irrelevent when you use the on/off to control bolt movement. No reason to take apart a $$ xvalve to play with the dump chamber when you can get the same result from a classic.

using a nice large braided line, or fat hardline, or capping the reg to make a sort of volumizer might give you quicker flow to the bolt.

Something else to think about... do you think a heavier bolt helps get your velocity up? A heavier bolt has more inertia to get moving allowing the dump chamber to build more pressure before the bolt stem can clear the powertube. Then maybe you can use the small bolt springs again.

Finally, why not just set the lpr pressure above and beyond what's needed, or give the ram more leverage. As long as you have a QEV, I think you'd be fine. Are using a ULT or RT on/off?

I love following this project.

[hill160881]

I dont think a clasic valve would work due to the flow rate. Also I rely on the RT effect to get it to function without shoot down(theory). Taking the pwoer tube off an x valve takes seconds now that I know how, so the de-volumeizing inserts will take less time to install than a Level 10 carier. The x-valve I have been using can be easily done by hand without destroying the oring.

The heavier bolt and heavier spring does not help wit turning up the velocity. I went back to a lighter spring and bolt and the speed went up not down. I did not foresee that outcome but it kinda makes sense with how the level 10 bolt works with a slower build up of pressure as opposed to a intense release of air. Less air is lost through the small port in the stem of the bolt prior to venting(theory).

A larger line is not needed, I would think in this design due to the flow rates at a input pressure of 800+ psi. I cant cap the reg on the back because the X valve is not as easy to cap due to its reliance on the high input pressure for its response time on the on off assembly, as the input to the valve and the top of the on off assembly are connected internally. Hince the input pressure affecting the rt speed. This may work with a clasic valve like you stated above but may suffer from shoot down if the shot chamber could not stay at the 300+psi during sustained fire. The on off in a clasic mag just wont flow much air without alot of pressure behind it and you cant plug the top of it because that is what makes it move down, the pressure from above the little teflon o-ring in the top pushes it down.
If it were pluged it would need a spring. Even if a rt on off were used it would still need the pressure from the top to push it down.

The higher the LPR pressure the harder it is to get a consistent crono, it is a very fine ballance between input pressure and lpr pressure, depending on how fast (fps) you want to shoot and how efficient you want it. If I set the LPR to high I cant get it to crono over 250, if I set it to low it will end up with hot shots and not be very accurate, or it could just runn away. Basically I turn the LPR down 1/4 turn or as far as I need to get it to hit 290. I then when cronoed at 290 I adjust the lpr up to get it to 275 ish. The LPR pressure has more to do with the true dwell than the board. Higher pressure shorter dwell, lower pressure longer dwell.

This is what the testing suggest anyway. It may all change when I de-volumize the shot chamber.

[Pneumagger]

I dont think a clasic valve would work due to the flow rate. Also I rely on the RT effect to get it to function without shoot down(theory). Taking the pwoer tube off an x valve takes seconds now that I know how, so the de-volumeizing inserts will take less time to install than a Level 10 carier. The x-valve I have been using can be easily done by hand without destroying the oring.

... This may work with a clasic valve like you stated above but may suffer from shoot down if the shot chamber could not stay at the 300+psi during sustained fire. The on off in a clasic mag just wont flow much air without alot of pressure behind it.

The higher the LPR pressure the harder it is to get a consistent crono, it is a very fine ballance between input pressure and lpr pressure, depending on how fast (fps) you want to shoot and how efficient you want it. If I set the LPR to high I cant get it to crono over 250, if I set it to low it will end up with hot shots and not be very accurate, or it could just runn away. Basically I turn the LPR down 1/4 turn or as far as I need to get it to hit 290. I then when cronoed at 290 I adjust the lpr up to get it to 275 ish. The LPR pressure has more to do with the true dwell than the board. Higher pressure shorter dwell, lower pressure longer dwell.

This is what the testing suggest anyway. It may all change when I de-volumize the shot chamber.

I find it interesting that the LPR pressure has more velocity effect than the dwell. It sounds like the MPA is fighting the on/offwhee milliseconds are a huge factor. I wonder if a ULT would help the ram move quicker. Someone upthread mentioned removing the MPA spring... that might help a little. Maybe use a larger air input and hose ID on the MPA-3 & QEV so air can travel quicker (or even use an MPA-5).

As far as the valve flow issue with usng a classic, I certainly think the superior flow of an Xvalve versus the AIR Valve is not a factor for a reverse mag modification.

The way the Xvalve works is that input pressure is allowed to travel directly over the on/off until the chamber is full. This causes the trigger reactivity. Once the chamber is full the feedback pressure shuts off HP input alltogether and pressures normalize between the reg and dump chamber. Air is regulated AFTER the air passes the on/off. This, along with the imabalanced on/off pin, give a lighter resistance than the initial reactivity.

The way a classic mag works is that ALL air fed though the on/off and to the dump chamber travels through the regulator. Pressure acting over the on/off pin is never really "high pressure" and this along with a balanced on/off pin create a situation where there is no reactivity. The slower flow happens because lower pressure travels through the passages to the dump chamber.

With you operating the marker in "reverse mode" the regulator likely never closes. The only thing that matters is the on/off being open or closed. That means as long as HP input can acess the top of the on/off, the valve has an incredible recharge rate. And since the regulator becomes irrelevent, the unique feedback of the RT/X regulator is not required. A Classic valve with an air passage bypassing the reg (or you could just remove the reg seat and reg pin) using a similar on/off should behave IDENTICAL a reverse Xvalve. HP air will travel straight from the NPT input to the on-off feed passage. Assuming the regulator is not effecting anything, an RT on off in the classic valve should give the reaction as the X-Valve. The only other variable would be the orifice and passageway sizes within the valves themselves - an I don't think they are drasitcally different (if anything, the Xvalve may have more restriction when flowing around the reg tube & reg seat).

One way to test whether the reg is being totally bypassed in the RT/X valve is to play with the regulator adjustment screw. If it has little or no impact on velocity, then it does not close.

See illustration... in either Reverse Xvalve sceario, there is no reason for the RT reg to ever stop flow unless you believe the dump chamber achieves full pressurization before the bolt (with no mechanical restraint) starts moving.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/ReverseMag.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/ReverseMagClassic.jpg

[hill160881]

Good illustrations. I think your right about the flow through the classic valve it self, but I still think the speed and force at which the on off pin moves down is what makes this possible. I would have to try a test and I dont currently have a clasic valve. Maybe later this week.

Without the spring in the mpa3 the marker wont cycle consistently. I also have a QEV on the ram already. The ram venting was a problem right off the bat.

[hill160881]

Well a weekend of testing and not the results I wanted. The de-volumizing inserts did not work due to them trapping a small amount of air in the shot chamber that caused all kinds of hissing after a shot, and it caused double feeding. It looks like I will need to drill port holes around the diameter of the insert and try this again next weekend. Also when I use the smaller inserts they slide back and forward in the shot chamber, causing damage, so I will have to use the longer one and trim it down, on the inside, till I get the results I want.

[Pneumagger]

Isn't the inside of an Xvalve's chamber reverse tapered - the back of the chamber is a larger diameter than the front of the chamber?
Or is actually straight walled?

Either way, why not just put oring face seals on the front and back of the devolumizer so the powertube seals them when it's screwed on? Then no air can get trapped around the outside of the spacer.

I'm pretty interested in this project (and I have a lathe)... so if you shoot me some dimensions I can machine you a spacer with oring glands. No charge, of course.

[hill160881]

Isn't the inside of an Xvalve's chamber reverse tapered - the back of the chamber is a larger diameter than the front of the chamber?
Or is actually straight walled?

Either way, why not just put oring face seals on the front and back of the devolumizer so the powertube seals them when it's screwed on? Then no air can get trapped around the outside of the spacer.

I'm pretty interested in this project (and I have a lathe)... so if you shoot me some dimensions I can machine you a spacer with oring glands. No charge, of course.

It is a reverse tapered space. I was using orings but it is impossible to get a perfect seal so porting it is the only option. It is to big anyway and I need to remove some of the volume anyway.

[magtard13]

how about milling my lvl10 bolt down like yours + the milling like xm15 had? that would make it ultralite!

[hill160881]

Dont modify the bolt unless you are removing the sear like I did.

[hill160881]

Got it, I think. At least the leaking is gone and it will crono. I wont know for sure until I go play with it.
I had to cut a oring groove in the front to hold it in place once the power tube is tightened. Also I took off a substantial amount of the inside. I managed to keep it tapered evenly using a dril to spin it while I cut it with a dremmal.

I plan to try these in both a standard mag and the reverse mag. I will post the results as soon as I get them. If they are good then I will send it to y0da900 to be replicated, so I can get several out in the community for input.

Before
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/img0957medium.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/img0958medium.jpg





After and the shorter ones will not work
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1510.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1509.jpg

[Pneumagger]

How do you remove the powertube on an Xvalve?

[hill160881]

I will tell you how I do it, but Tuna would have a seizure if he saw me doing it :rofl: . So I dont recomend this method but it is the one I use. Large curved jawed adjustable pliers, a piece of rubber and a vice. Just dont let the pliers slip and it will barley be noticeable. Clean the threads after you get it apart and you can put it back together without tools. Just dont use any lock tit till you are sure you are not going to remove it again or you will loose the red oring.

[Pneumagger]

is there aleady red loctite on it from the factory?

[hill160881]

Yes so heat helps, You will most likely destroy the red oring the first time you take it off but after that you can take it off many times if you dont use any locktite

[MoeMag]

WOW! I disapear for a while to come back and find this... AMAZING.

[hill160881]

I will have final test results with the volume reducing insert tomorrow, I hope. This will be the last test for a while until I can put several cases through it in play.

[zeroaz]

Maybe I missed it earlier, but will this work with a PneuMag setup? If not can you please briefly explain why?

Thanks

[kcombs9]

Maybe I missed it earlier, but will this work with a PneuMag setup? If not can you please briefly explain why?

Thanks
this is a Pneumag set up, just with the Noid open rather then closed.

[Pneumagger]

Maybe I missed it earlier, but will this work with a PneuMag setup? If not can you please briefly explain why?

Thanks
No. In a purely mechanical setup, there would be no way to consistently control dwell. Your shot would be too slow or too hot and inefficient with manual control of the ram/actuator.

It has to e solenoid controlled ram/actuator so you can set the dwell.

It would work manually but not consistently or efficiently. Plus you'd need a different 3way alltogether because the typical MSV-2 is a normaly closed 3 way that always vents.

[Chrome]

I wasn't actually thinking of notches in the bolt like that. I was thinking of something more like this.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/Bzrkr21/2011-04-18123947.jpg


Its a old foamie bolt before the lvl 7. The stock lvl 7's I have weigh 2 oz this one with the foamie and lightening milling weighs in at 1.6 oz a 20% weight difference. If you want to try it out your welcome to it. The sear edge of the bolt is kind of worn but I think it will work.


I know I'm very late to this party, but I saw this pic/post and want to ask - the reverse mag project completely aside, have you installed this bolt in a standard spec gun and tried it out? Thanks!