Ultra Light Mag

[hill160881]

I have more than a few projects going at the moment and here is another one. This one has been a while in the making.

Here it is, Only missing a sear at the moment and it is so light it feels like a toy. I will get a true weight at the post office later because my scale wont work at the moment. Its well under 2 lbs though.

This was a collaboration between me and the Devil :D (Devilman). I still plan to take a good amount of weight off the valve but the progress so far and it is looking good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ibOsyGYAc

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1435.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1445.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1438.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1433.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1443.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1442.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1440.jpg

[redlaser666]

Nice touch on rounding the back of the rail by the frame.

[Flatliner333]

If your just going for ALAP take the foregrip off.

[Smoothice]

I wonder what weighs less. Capping the valve and using a reg like a stab or fatty? Or just keeping it how you have it?

If you capped the valve then you could remove that much more rail from the back.

Also is that a ccm barrel? Does the ccm barrel weigh less then a dw barrel with an insert?

[kcombs9]

I wonder what weighs less. Capping the valve and using a reg like a stab or fatty? Or just keeping it how you have it?

If you capped the valve then you could remove that much more rail from the back.

Also is that a ccm barrel? Does the ccm barrel weigh less then a dw barrel with an insert?

Also if you caped the valve you could use the reg as the forgrip, I prefure forgrips on my markers.

DW makes the Null barrel, no inserts just CF and little alum for threads, or stiffie (sp?) makes a full CF barrel with no alum.


nice mag I like the rail too...

[hill160881]

Capping the reg is a wash on weight as I discovered. The AGD reg is pretty darn light. That for grip is ultra ultra light.

As for the rail, it was done with a table saw and a dremmal.

[captian pinky]

whats the plan for the valve? teardrop milling?

[hill160881]

Not sure on that yet. That will be up to DM.

[Tunaman]

Dont mill the valve. You may ruin the 3000 psi rating. ;)

[Mongoose]

I have a fore grip for ya :cheers:

[MANN]

Dont mill the valve. You may ruin the 3000 psi rating. ;)

I would guess that less than 1% of the valves out there ever see 3000psi.

[snoopay700]

I would guess that less than 1% of the valves out there ever see 3000psi.
Yes, but it's still a safety factor. I personally wouldn't touch the valve because it's there for a reason because you could get it so that it should be able to hold 1000 psi, but things still find a way to fail even if they shouldn't. Plus the fatigue life of aluminum is never infinite, so milling an x-valve is even more foolish of an idea than a classic valve.

[hill160881]

Here is the weight. 1lb-7.75 oz :D
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Ultra%20Light%20mag/PICT1454.jpg

[DevilMan]

I've got a lighter feedneck for it as well... not sure how much lighter but it is a bit... hmmm... where else to shave weight ;)

DM

[hill160881]

1.5 lbs aint light enough :rofl:

Noodle arms. :p

[Chrome]

You HAVE to get rid of that brass safety and swap in a plastic one - the brass must weigh a TON on that gun, not to mention that it is throwing the balance WAY off. . . :D

I might not have gone as crazy on the rail, but I agree that the rounding at the back for the grip frame looks very smooth. :cool:

[continuing to pick nits]:

Single detent or dual? Dropping a detent might shave a few more tenths of an ounce.
SPD-style panel grips? Maybe a pair of the finger-grooved Lapco ones, just to stay away from the oh-so-heavy rubber?

[DevilMan]

You HAVE to get rid of that brass safety and swap in a plastic one - the brass must weigh a TON on that gun, not to mention that it is throwing the balance WAY off. . . :D

I might not have gone as crazy on the rail, but I agree that the rounding at the back for the grip frame looks very smooth. :cool:

[continuing to pick nits]:

Single detent or dual? Dropping a detent might shave a few more tenths of an ounce.
SPD-style panel grips? Maybe a pair of the finger-grooved Lapco ones, just to stay away from the oh-so-heavy rubber?

The panels aren't rubber... they're plastic... and they've been UL'd on the inside, same for th CF frame. There is more that can come off, but I don't want it to flex like a coke bottle when I squeeze it.

The detent is a dual because it's what the Pariah's come with. I've weighed it. I really think that the amount of metal that comes out of the hole is more than the hollow detent with the spring and plastic ball, though I can't confirm that 100% yet. But I'm pretty sure it is.

Those are the lightest grips that I can find. And SPD doesn't make (to my knowledge) any that are single bolt center style.

And I'm thinking of picking up a Stiffi barrel that is non switch to weigh and try out, but the fork area on that style weighs just as much as the insert does on the switch it looks like though I can't be certain yet. And the MF barrel weighs twice as much as it's made from a thicker wall CF tube with extra epoxy on it for the threading.

DM

[Chrome]

Just playin' with ya. :cheers:

I used to run those grips on my guns; they're more comfortable to me than the finger groove kind, but I found I shoot a little more consistently with the finger grooves. Just trying to think out loud for some other options. Now that I think on it, there are some VERY old ones (I think they are WGP stock grips) that came on the cast metal frames - I remember those were very thin walled plastic (probably about where you're at with the ULE work done).

Anyhow, I've never owned a ULE body before, but could the body profile at the front be changed any further (kind of a mini-exile milling, if that makes sense?), or is the cut at the front of the AM/MM rail length right at the end of the barrel threads?

Also, depending on how nuts you want to get with the CF sleeve on the body, I know you can cut decorative slots/notches in the back top of the body on the valve side with no ill effect - looks pretty cool and it would let you grind off a few more tenths?

:cheers:

[bumbabeef]

nice

[snoopay700]

You know, the trigger frame and foregrip are really optional. Just use the sear arm as a trigger, the barrel as a foregrip, run it remote, and put that rail on more of a diet. I think you'd see a difference then.


Yes, this is all in jest.

[correia3]

Have you considered making a new regulator/velocity adjustment screw out of aluminum? It is a fairly large piece of stainless steel back there that could see some weight savings from aluminum construction...Maybe switch over to CCM macro fittings too since they are aluminum and the ones on the marker look like stainless...

[correia3]

Also, have you considered removing more material from the rail between the gripframe screw and the foregrip mounting screw similar to what you did in the middle of the rail? Just throwing a few things out there...

[Shirow]

Run a remote, small hopper, then you don't need a foregrip :)

[hill160881]

Also, have you considered removing more material from the rail between the gripframe screw and the foregrip mounting screw similar to what you did in the middle of the rail? Just throwing a few things out there...

The rail only weighs 1.5 oz and is ULEd on the inside so i cant take any more out. The rail flexes already so it is as light as I dare.

I figure it will be 1.2 lbs when totally done.

[Flatliner333]

You need to get with Mongoose for some uber light ULE rail bushings :D

[Pneumagger]

One thing I regret is never getting around to having that one frame I designed produced.
Totally ULE'd, the frame would have made for one of the lightest setups ever because you can get rid of the rail.
I'll bet if the frame were made from glass-filled nylon it would fantastically light... and still no rail.

I'd be up for producing a few prototypes if someone had the capabilities... all my personal machines are not CNC. :(

This version of the design isn't completely ULE'd... it has a cutout for an MPA-3 pneumag piston directly under the on/off and a tab for easy mounting of the MSV-2.
Notice the cutouts & holes to accomodate a sear directly in the frame.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/rail_frame.jpg

This was a plainer version with an integrated 15 degree foregrip.
This frame could have also accomodated a sear.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/v01_cutaway.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/V2UMF-1.jpg

[Pneumagger]

You might be able to make the top of your CF frame concave with a counterbore fo rthe ULE screw standoff, cut/drill features for a sear slot & hole, and shorten the sear arm so the rod & clevis fit in the original trigger rod channel. You'd probably need a ULT and to cut the guard and add a double trigger because the sear would become a bit harder to pull. Then you could ULE cut whatever is not needed from the rest of the CF frame.

Although, I'm not sure if the frame is long enough. :confused:
The sear slot might come through the back of the frame where the webbing of your thumb sits.

[hill160881]

Very interesting. I may need a similar setup when I move the MPA3 ram under the on off in my reverse mag build.

Do you have a cad with values assigned to them?

What board would fit in there if any?

[Pneumagger]

Very interesting. I may need a similar setup when I move the MPA3 ram under the on off in my reverse mag build.

Do you have a cad with values assigned to them?

What board would fit in there if any?

No, there are not formal drawings. There are so many splines and so many sections would be needed for a proper drawing that it's not worth the time. If I were making it I'd skip drawings and just generat ehte G+M code directly from the model.

The board kind of depends on the noid you'd put in there. I remember the SMC noids were pretty small.
I've fit boards, noids batteries & pistons in regular UMFs and Airwalk frames before.
Then again, since it's still just a model, the grip screws could be changed to Dye 3-screw grip pattern and you'd have tons of room.

[93klauss]

Capping the reg is a wash on weight as I discovered. The AGD reg is pretty darn light. That for grip is ultra ultra light.

As for the rail, it was done with a table saw and a dremmal.


And you still have fingers to fire that thing!!!!!
Or do you look like this GuY!!! :headbang:

[hill160881]

I am terrified of table saws and I have been using them for over 15 years now. So I give them lots of room and respect, and never get my hands anywhere near the blade. So I still have most my fingers :tard:

Only kidding all 10 of them.lol

[Dover]

and yet you do wonders with metal, but not wood? have you considered a career here:

http://www.gdcareers.com/gdchq_jobs/main.cfm

https://www.cia.gov/careers/index.html

[hill160881]

I am sure they want people with a degree, and I think school is a wast of time that could be better spent with hands on learning. As I learn best that way. But if I had a proper education I would work somewhere really cool. :D Instead I clean pools at the moment.

I was a pretty good finish carpenter in Carmel Ca once upon a time, until 07. Worked on some really really expensive homes there, as a start to beautifull finish carpenter. I did it all except the granite counter tops. So I can make pretty nice stuff form wood, which is why I am using all wood working tools at the moment, and aluminum is as soft as some hard woods. Got tired of that work, it is a beating and pool work pays better these days.

[Dover]

that's a lot less stress too :)

[hill160881]

Ya no stress at all, I work locally and get a list every day, and the boss dont care when, as long as it all gets done by the end of the day. So I make my own hours.

[skyless]

Im reading this thread while at school typing a research paper for an english class that is required for my engineering degree, stressed about getting it done plus my calc and physics homework and work work getting on my case for being distracted and not meeting their standards for the management job that they put me in despite saying i could not take the extra work because of school. Some times i think it would be better to just get a job at a machine shop and work my way up, since that is probably how its going to go anyway.
End rant.....
Keep up the great work Hill, if you have the resources and ability anything is possible....with mags :dance:

[gunman_2000]

Pneumagger I remember really looking forward to that integrated rail and frame you were designing way back when. I was sad when it never came to fruition, one day I hope you get to give it a shot.

[Pneumagger]

It's been on my mind, even since my break from AO.
It's not dead... just on the back burner. I'm actually trying to get something going here soon.

[Rudz]

Nice work Tracey, you could probably ULE out that foregrip some more, I think you need better looking grips, maybe some wood?

Nice to see you back Joe, I always wanted to see that frame with the integrated 15* asa

[hill160881]

Ripping at 850 psi or so. My Ego feels like a brick after handling this thing.

NO BARREL LIFT. At 16+ bps DM is not getting it back :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ibOsyGYAc

[Dover]

Ripping at 850 psi or so. My Ego feels like a brick after handling this thing.

NO BARREL LIFT. At 16+ bps DM is not getting it back :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ibOsyGYAc

are you shooting that fast using just a single trigger and trigger bounce from the XValve ?

[hill160881]

Yes but the on off pin is .710" and I am using a Quad ring in the on off. So I dont need high pressure input. I have a nack for making mags shoot fast. :D

[stevewar]

Ripping at 850 psi or so. My Ego feels like a brick after handling this thing.

NO BARREL LIFT. At 16+ bps DM is not getting it back :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ibOsyGYAc

What do you suppose caused the "no barrel lift" which I will call a lack of kick? I'm not a mechanical engineer, etc, but I really want to come up with a way of lightening the bolt as much as possible to minimize kick. Your thoughts?

[Spider-TW]

That grip frame puts your hand at a very nice angle and very close to the line of the barrel. Higher geometries magnify the force required to eject paintballs at 16 bps at ~300 fps. That part will never go away. Long vert frames would seem a lot worse, but they also tend to make you tuck your bottle in for support.

I've was surprised by the size of 05/06 egos. I had thought of them smaller than 2k5 timmys, but they weren't.

***

Anyway, kick is the unrecovered force from the bolt slapping at each end. You don't get much on the forward stroke of a mag because of the bolt spring. You get some on the back stroke when the bolt hits the valve. TK tried a lighter bolt at one time (delrin? the black plastic level 10 beta). It didn't hold up too well. So yes, it can be done; it's just getting into diminishing returns.

I have an angel A1 fly with the lightened valve and bolt (all delrin). It is silly smooth, quiet, and very fast. With the different grip angle and the wrong color paint, I have trouble seeing where my shots went, and I don't know how many actually went out. I didn't expect such a small gun to require that much practice, and I often miss a little bit of vibration from a shot.

[hill160881]

I am going to say the grip frame and the way it is held fully supported, like spwder-tw said.