Efficiency mods?

[hill160881]

If there any other mods for efficiency please let me know. I am trying to get them all in one place. At least all the theories and proven mods.


Here is what I have done so far, it cornos and shoots 10 bps with no shoot down. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

The Classic Valve. I thought there was a thread on this but I could not find it.
I took the small tapered piece that y0da900 made for the reverse mag and fit it to some 1/2" PVC the length of the shot chamber. Also how much of the chamber can I take up before I cant crono it? Any body know from experience?

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1390.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1392.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1393.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1400.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1397.jpg


These were the inserts that y0da900 made for me and they are what I started with.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/img0957medium.jpg

I am also running this mod on the Classic valve even though it was less than stellar in its performance. I found the oring on the bolt lasted longer if the fit was not as tight.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1370.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1372.jpg


Here is the X-Valve. I just need to test it
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/PICT1509.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1373.jpg


Here is the info on the red oring in the picture above.
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_36&products_id=1798

The measurements are really close to

20mm ID

1mm cs

And the new ones this size work great!

[Tunaman]

Dont you think the man that designed the valves already thought of all this stuff? Well he did, and none of it works. I dont mean to disregard your ingenuity, but you are going to put someones eye out if you are not careful! If you are looking for valves with a smaller dump chamber they already exist. AGD tried that years ago. ;)

[hill160881]

How will I put someone's eye out if I never use the plastic insert in play, only for testing? ;) In fact I have herd of clasic valves that have made 100% improvement from there base line with devolumizing on a 12 gram co2. It would be cool to here TK's thoughts on these matters and many others I have worked on, but I have yet to prompt a response. I may never make anything work any better, but I enjoy the attempt.

I have herd things like, the noid in that EP setup wont shoot faster than 16 bps, or You cant make a mag lighter than 1.8 lbs and it not fall apart, or You cant mount eyes in a mag body from underneath and keep it from showing on the outside or intruding into the breach, or you cant remove the sear from a mag, or you cant fit that in a single trigger frame, Edit: or these mods have been tried and they dont work.......

so thanks for the chalange :D And another one bites the dust! 1600 shots on a 68/45 and it was not even full.

[p8ntbal4me]

I have herd things like, the noid in that EP setup wont shoot faster than 16 bps

The whole 15-18 BPS limit on the is based on the SMC specifications for their S070 solenoid and the intended use.

Let me start by saying that paintball, for ALL manufactures of EP solenoids, is NOT the intended use for their products. They will sell you whatever you want, but paintball causes their products to have a much shorter shelf life and in no way is something they want to warranty for end users. They are mostly intended for long duty cycles and not the 1/100th scale we use them for.

The SMC S070 solenoid was tested by myself and a few others a while ago when ASP first had them up on the site for sale.

We tested both the S070, 33 series, 43 series, 44 series, YJ series, and I think 2 more variations of the SMC valves that worked with some other DIY projects.

The limit was set on the S070 solenoid as far as BPS because where we tried to fit the ram and hoses to the setup with that specific one, we were blowing the seals inside the body due to the lack of pressure we could run into the solenoid.

What I mean by that is we figured the 15bps barrier was not going to cause the solenoid to fail, so a good number to start with for that solenoid. We went to 18 BPS,.. no issues at first. Where we had the first real issues with the solenoid was the 18+ settings on the board and the pressure from the LPR to keep a CONSISTENT rate of fire without killing the solenoid or damaging the internals so much to have it fail sooner than desired.

Basically, we decided that 15BPS was a sure fire safe number to give out that people would like to hear it could go, most people at the time would be content with shooting at the field, and it provided a safe buffer for end users to NOT kill the internals by jacking the LPR up too high to squeeze the pressure enough only for another 3 BPS.

Can the solenoid go higher? You proved that to be true :) From a stand point of selling them and offering a kit, it was not in anyone's best interest at the time when I was working on such project to go around saying it would touch 18+bps and then see the solenoids fail and return to me with people all mad about the quality of the work and settings.

Ive pointed a solenoid out to you before that reaches LUDICROUS speeds in a EP setup. Those solenoids as well as the YJ series from SMC can break 22+ BPS and not blink and eye at 100+ psi.

Its not a matter of "can it be done" Tracy
Its a matter of "can it be done without disappointment"

The solenoids with the larger coils are meant for duty cycles in the 1/100 range. Thats why WDP used the SMC YJ series originally. They perform with minimal fail on the end user side of applications.

All products and improvements have breaking points where function does not out weigh value and cost. Pushing the S070 solenoid beyond 20bps was where the issues started and we thought a larger solenoid that handles the faster cycle times was simply a much more suitable solution which allowed everyone to have a product that lasted.

[OPBN]

I'm interested in seeing what happens on these whether they have been tried or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt it said AGD had tried to get these valves to work with LP and couldnt? Yet we now see Tippmann doing exactly that with the Phenom. Isn't it essentially the valve? Not trying to disrespect the MagGods or anything, but why knock someone for trying? I don't see many other new ideas being bantered around.

[hill160881]

I understand what you mean on the noid but I run mine at 18+ all the time(over 50,ooo rounds now). The catch is the consistency of the lpr you are running that determines weather the noid will fail at high rates of fire. I toasted two noids now with crappy WGP, ANS regs, but replace the reg and noid and smooth 20's. Also during the last event I lost my LPR and the noid got 900 psi and it went full auto and then blew off the LP hose before the noid gave out. Noid still works fine. Should do is one thing, will do is what I care about. As long as there is no danger.

No noid is rated for what the paintball industry does with it. When I contacted the company they told me that under these rapid firing conditions that "the shorter the cycle time, the higher the pressure, the longer the noid will last." Also "over pressure is pointless(to a point) as the valve just opens with to much pressure" because the pressure overcomes the spring holding it shut.

The other noid they make is way stronger but makes for an ugly install so I chose to use the smaller one.

Edit:I feel obligated to point out that the Minigun uses one of these noids, and after thousands of rounds, without pause, at 20 bps, the noid is fine.

[hill160881]

I'm interested in seeing what happens on these whether they have been tried or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt it said AGD had tried to get these valves to work with LP and couldnt? Yet we now see Tippmann doing exactly that with the Phenom. Isn't it essentially the valve? Not trying to disrespect the MagGods or anything, but why knock someone for trying? I don't see many other new ideas being bantered around.

I wont be stopped,lol.


I believe every design has room for improvement, and the one who designed it is usually to close to see what those improvements may be. Or the designer is insulted that someone thinks there needs to be improvement. Further more, the best innovation is old tech mixed with new ideas. Or old ideas made possible with new tech.


I will be testing soon.

What's the average # of shoots on a 12 gram? 9 to 12 shots

What's the best anyone ever got on a 12 gram after devolumizing? 24 shots

So, room for improvement for sure,

[Spider-TW]

I think you were looking for this...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249391

I had the same result on velocity as flyingpootang.

With 8 washers, you can get to 300 fps in 60 degree weather. 50 degrees was getting a little funky. With that setup on HPA, it wouldn't go over about 250 fps without venting from the piston relief. That says to me it is at the point where you are relying the extra gas expansion of the CO2 and running a relatively high chamber pressure.

The washers are standard 3/8" nylon washers, with the OD cut down to about 1/16" under the chamber diameter. That should give you a volume on a classic valve that is pushing those limits.

There are trade offs for chamber size. Tuna has a point about the design being well designed and tested. However, if you are willing to narrow down the operation to warm weather CO2, it does have some room there.

[hill160881]

YYYYYYEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS.

Results are in and 1600 rounds on a 4100psi fill, at 285 fps. I guarantee a video this weekend. :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

I got part way through the video before the marker stopped shooting and needed the LPR turned up a bit but I had my Neighbor(who shoots an Emag) and my brother standing there speechless the whole time. Neither can believe what they saw. I drained 11 pods at 10 bps and went to the house for some rounds to crono with. :wow:

One small issue is the weight of the trigger pull is way higher than the EP mag that i use can operate reliably. Oops the on off needed a new oring and it was not screwed together all the way. Yep back to normal no random excessive trigger pull weight.

[leloup]

What is the normal amount you get off that fill? I never paid much attention, and just refilled often.

Hill, don't worry if people say you can't. That just gives you all the more permission to try it. Edison, after 700+ filaments didn't work said, "I have not failed, I just found 10,000 ways that didn't work."

[OPBN]

1600 on a 68/45 only filled to 4100 is pretty impressive. I"m lucky to get 1/2 that.

[hill160881]

1100 rounds maybe 1200 is all a 68/45 is normally good for.

And the orings after the test run. Still good. :dance:
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Sleeper%20Mag/100_1403.jpg

[hill160881]

And here is the 1700 round prototype

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1407.jpg

And next to the 1500 round insert. The difference is the aluminum piece. For this one I used the middle insert that y0da900 made for me and the same size piece of PVC as the smaller one. The largest one is in the X-valve I need to test.

Still in one piece after all that testing to
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1408.jpg

[hill160881]

The first test with the one in the X-valve and it is as big as I can make it and get it to crono. The valve is one full turn from maxed out. I dont know how much the savings is as I cant afford to test it at the moment. I will do a 68/3000 test maybe tomorrow.

Every time I try to do this with a Level 10 I get the bolt bouncing all over the place so the L10 may not work. It is caused by extra pressure in the shot chamber I think. I am going to shorten the stem on a bolt and use a slitley longer spring and see if that fixes it. If not then it looks like the L7 is the only other option.

A longer spring seems to have fixed it.

[hill160881]

Here are the three to send off for duplication. Two for the classic and one for the X-valve. So the 1700 round version will cause leaking out the back so until I try an idea to stop this I will just stick with the smaller one and the one for the X valve. The one in the middle is a improved moddel of the one above it. Same volume, different internal taper, no orings. The one on top is the tester that I used, so I will have some of those made and the new version will hopefully be as efficient.

I will need some people to test these when I get them done and give me feed back, good and most importantly bad. As any changes need to be made before someone makes a bunch of them. :ninja:
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1411.jpg








It turns out about a 25% volume reduction is the best and at full speed about 1500 rounds is about what I got in testing on a 68/45. If you shoot like I do at 265-270 you will get more.

[rawbutter]

I will need some people to test these when I get them done and give me feed back, good and most importantly bad. As any changes need to be made before someone makes a bunch of them. :ninja:

I have a scuba tank, a pneumag, a classic, and no job. I'm your man. ;)