Question: What skills from paintball transfer to personal protection with a firearm?

[Miscue]

I'll throw in a few things to start with...

Things that transfer:
* You get used to point-shooting and shooting instinctively
* You get better at using cover/concealment and understanding where your body is in relationship to it
* You get used to shooting while moving
* You get some exposure to operating under stress and with adrenaline
* You get some simulation of someone using tactics/strategies against you with some type of gun

Things that don't transfer:
* Knowing when you can or should shoot
* For the most part, it does not teach you how to use a handgun
* Trigger control (especially with electronic triggers)
* A typical paintball game does not recreate a "real-life" scenario - it's not like force-on-force training

[sjrtk]

I'll throw in a few things to start with...

Things that transfer:
* You get used to point-shooting and shooting instinctively

Disagree Point shooting is only remotely effective with a shot gun. Window for error is to big with a pistol or rifle.

* You get better at using cover/concealment and understanding where your body is in relationship to it

Agree It does make you realized you knee or shoulder ect. is exposed.

* You get used to shooting while moving

Agree You get used to the idea, but the margin for error is much smaller in the game.

* You get some exposure to operating under stress and with adrenaline

Agree No comment it is true

* You get some simulation of someone using tactics/strategies against you with some type of gun

Agree But depending on the players opposing your game type it would be in effective.

Things that don't transfer:
* Knowing when you can or should shoot
* For the most part, it does not teach you how to use a handgun
* Trigger control (especially with electronic triggers)
* A typical paintball game does not recreate a "real-life" scenario - it's not like force-on-force training

Agree all ^^^


Agree and Disagree

My 2 cents

[BigEvil]

Holy Crap Look Who's Back!!

[Shirow]

Here are the skills that transfer IMO.

Being able to crawl the snake
Talking smack to the ref
Overshooting little kids
Wiping
Being super agg
Wearing a bandana

[Pneumagger]

Agree and Disagree

My 2 cents
I think point shooting can be very effective with a pistol. I do USPSA competitions and a huge part of knocking down target rapidly is point shooting. For 70%+ of the targets (all but the far ones) if you're "aiming" you'll be too slow. At distances under 15-20 yards, point shooting works well with pistols and rifles/SMG.

[going_home]

Holy Crap Look Who's Back!!

I was gonna say... who the heck is that ?

Must have been called back up for another tour on the battlefield since
Beemer has abandoned us.

On topic, well sort of.
Putting holes in things is as expensive as paintball but its fun.

;)

[behemoth]

Agree and Disagree

My 2 cents

Like Pneumagger, I disagree with your disagree.

When shooting up close, and quickly, point shooting is perfectly fine, if you're good enough at it.



Also, welcome back Q.

[rx2]

I'm not a big fan of point-shooting. Learn to use your sights properly, and they will work for you. As they say in shooting games, you can't miss fast enough to make up time. In other words, while you may shave a fraction of a second by not bringing the gun up to eye-level, and bringing the front sight into focus, you will miss more often in the long run, and no matter how fast you may be shooting, the misses still don't count. People like Sevigny, Miculek, and Butler aren't winning matches with point-shooting.

ETA - Point shooting is OK in some instances, such as shooting from the hip at someone five feet from you.

I also disagree, partially, with the cover/concealment point. In real life, being too tight into cover can get you injured. When at all possible, you should stand back from cover. Bullets fragment and ricochet, and cover will explode in your face. Of course, using cover improperly is still better than not using it at all. Paintball at least sets you in the right direction.

I agree that one major point to consider is that the mechanics of firing a gun are different from working a marker. Recoil, mag exchanges, 4 lb. + and DA triggers, and conservation of ammunition aren't things you usually don't deal with in paintball. You also can't "walk" a rope of rounds onto target (unless you are using tracers, I suppose).

Because of the said mechanical differences, I really don't think that the "shooting on the move" aspect really translates that well. Doing so with a 13 bps marker with an electronic trigger is vastly different from doing so with a real firearm.

Paintball does get you some exposure to manipulating gear and maneuvering under pressure. Obviously, though, it doesn't even begin to approach the feeling of having someone actually pointing a gun at you and/or firing at you.

The tactics argument is something I am undecided on. I have never really seen anyone try to translate paintball tactics to a real firefight. However, I have seen people try to translate military and police tactics to paintball, and get destroyed. I have a feeling that it would work the same should roles be reversed.

I base all of this on my experience in law enforcement in a high-crime area, with military training, and as a competitive shooter in IPSC, GSSF, PPC, 3-gun, and tactical shoots (haven't gotten around to USPSA).

Just for the hell of it, here is a shot of just some of my toys (from an old thread on another site).
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l599/richard_fitzwell1/glockar.jpg

[DevilMan]

Point or Reflex shooting is what I call it... As it's a reflex... I think all of the points can be learned as well as reloading, clearing jams, and overall safe handling techniques.

Anyone who says Reflex shooting is no good hasn't had to do it enough. I can't target shoot to save my life, but you give me a target to hit and I'm much quicker to get it dead on the run than if it were stationary. I've shot deer in a full tilt run through the woods and took her down. It wasn't a one shot one kill, but the shot went through the spine just behind her shoulders and she ended up in the freezer.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/DevilMan75/Private%20Stash/th_SANY0058.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/DevilMan75/Private%20Stash/?action=view&current=SANY0058.mp4)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/DevilMan75/Private%20Stash/th_SANY0072.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/DevilMan75/Private%20Stash/?action=view&current=SANY0072.mp4)

Just a couple of them... And I know that these targets aren't moving... my point is that I never saw the sites on the pistol... I pick up, rack the slide and drop the hammer... trying to find sites takes wayyyyyy too long sometimes...

DM

[kcombs9]

I'm like others agree/disagree. I don't shoot many fire arms myself.

BUT one thing I can't stand is kids who think that because they are good in Paintball, they think they would make great military/special ops/swat/seal what have you in real life.

apples and oranges in my mind.

[Outlaw5]

Nothing really and that is because the mindset of gunfighting and paintballing are completely different. The tasks that need to be trained and the understanding that a person who will be in a real gunfight needs to have are very diffferent from paintballing. A couple of examples: 1) you can be pinned down by real gunfire where as you are never "really" pinned down in paintball. 2) the cover and concealment that is used in paintball will get you killed in a real gunfight...both in urban and rural combat.......real rifle bullet go through trees of surprising size as well as walls eithin houses etc.

I say all of this for one profound reason......if you are interested in the art and science of self-defense then please go find training and go practice at ranges along with different everyday scenarios you thik you would be in. The more you train and understand the various required tasks that need to be mastered the better you will be as a self-protected citizen and understand the laws of your state and locality as an informed citizen should be.

just my .02 cents......good luck! Outlaw5 :D

[behemoth]

I'm not a big fan of point-shooting. Learn to use your sights properly, and they will work for you. As they say in shooting games, you can't miss fast enough to make up time. In other words, while you may shave a fraction of a second by not bringing the gun up to eye-level, and bringing the front sight into focus, you will miss more often in the long run, and no matter how fast you may be shooting, the misses still don't count. People like Sevigny, Miculek, and Butler aren't winning matches with point-shooting.

ETA - Point shooting is OK in some instances, such as shooting from the hip at someone five feet from you.

I also disagree, partially, with the cover/concealment point. In real life, being too tight into cover can get you injured. When at all possible, you should stand back from cover. Bullets fragment and ricochet, and cover will explode in your face. Of course, using cover improperly is still better than not using it at all. Paintball at least sets you in the right direction.

I agree that one major point to consider is that the mechanics of firing a gun are different from working a marker. Recoil, mag exchanges, 4 lb. + and DA triggers, and conservation of ammunition aren't things you usually don't deal with in paintball. You also can't "walk" a rope of rounds onto target (unless you are using tracers, I suppose).

Because of the said mechanical differences, I really don't think that the "shooting on the move" aspect really translates that well. Doing so with a 13 bps marker with an electronic trigger is vastly different from doing so with a real firearm.

Paintball does get you some exposure to manipulating gear and maneuvering under pressure. Obviously, though, it doesn't even begin to approach the feeling of having someone actually pointing a gun at you and/or firing at you.

The tactics argument is something I am undecided on. I have never really seen anyone try to translate paintball tactics to a real firefight. However, I have seen people try to translate military and police tactics to paintball, and get destroyed. I have a feeling that it would work the same should roles be reversed.

I base all of this on my experience in law enforcement in a high-crime area, with military training, and as a competitive shooter in IPSC, GSSF, PPC, 3-gun, and tactical shoots (haven't gotten around to USPSA).

Just for the hell of it, here is a shot of just some of my toys (from an old thread on another site).
[IMG]http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l599/richard_fitzwell1/glockar.jpg[IMG]

An oldschool AOer from Cleveland... I wonder if we've played together at some point.

Also, where do you shoot competitively around here? I've had hard enough time finding ranges that arent way out of the way, let alone one that holds competitions...


Also, nice hardware.

[spece108]

You do take a site picture though. This includes slide, front site, etc in your sight plane. Same as shooting paint. Hours of practice equals results.

As far as translating, one of my teammates was the only person to win the academies 1 against 5 entry scenario with a single 15rd mag of simunitions

[Newt]

Another aspect that will transfer well is the ability to qgressively react to opportunity, and to make good opportunity out of bad ones. Most uf us have been frustrated at team mates who can't do this (if not, you're probably that guy :D ).

This also works with babes and business.

[b-cuzz]

I don't shoot a lot of firearms anymore (not for lack of interest), but I've fired just about every handgun round out there. I won't say anything about military training, because for pistol shooters in the air wing, it's almost nonexistent.

The only commonality I see between pistol shooting and paintball is the fact that playing paintball teaches the brain how to willingly squeeze the trigger whilst pointing the business end at an actual living, breathing human being.
Also, as in paintball, your level of familiarity with your weapon of choice will save your life as much as any other factor in any given situation. Repeated drills at the range with the same gun will improve your accuracy and consistency. Pick a gun. Know it. Get accurate with it. Then get fast with it. Then get fast and accurate. Don't shoot your toe off.

[Miscue]

A "student" asked me this. I had to think about it a bit and said... no, paintball doesn't teach you anything. Maybe in some small way, but really it does not have anything to do with firearms or defense training. Then I backpedaled a bit and said... but I could see it having some value. "How's that?" "Let me get back to you on that." I didn't have an answer ready.

I think I've decided that... it's not worth mentioning what parallels there may be - it creates confusion when so many things do not apply. I'll leave it as: It's useful as a physical activity... that's about it.

[Miscue]

Here are the skills that transfer IMO.

Being able to crawl the snake
Talking smack to the ref
Overshooting little kids
Wiping
Being super agg
Wearing a bandana

Yeah... I think you're right about this.

[DevilMan]

Saying that no skills or ideas transfer over is like saying that because you know how to bake a cake don't mean you know anything about reloading. Or because you know how to tie your shoes don't mean that you can learn how to make a double slipknot knot.

My point is.. there are plenty of things that transfer over... some in very distinct, others only in reference, but being able to put logic and rational from what you KNOW into circumstances that you may know nothing about is what makes you human. You don't have to know that a 3 X 3 X 3 chunk of concrete with X in density weighs 194 lbs. But you can relate it around that if you drop a 3 X 3 X 3 chunk of concrete on your head off of the tailgate that it's gonna hurt... for a very short time granted.

Learning proper handling and safety with a PB gun is no different than learning with a real gun. The PROPER way is what you are learning. Sure the projectile of the real gun is more "dangerous" in a way, but both demand respect.

You shoot yourself in the hand with a PB gun that you thought was unloaded and it'll smart you. If you aren't smart enough to relay that over to "I wonder if this gun is loaded?" and unload it into the palm of your hand then I feel sorry for ya...

If you can't relay various life experiences over into other aspects of your life then I don't know how one could make it too far in it.

DM

[Shirow]

Yeah... I think you're right about this.

I know, I have sent my HK USP .45 to be powdercoated gloss white and gloss red, do you know anyone who makes leopard print grips for it?

[Daze]

Also, as in paintball, your level of familiarity with your weapon of choice will save your life as much as any other factor in any given situation. Repeated drills at the range with the same gun will improve your accuracy and consistency. Pick a gun. Know it. Get accurate with it. Then get fast with it. Then get fast and accurate. Don't shoot your toe off.
Just so you know, I'm going to quote you very, very often to the twerps at the local field.

[dre1919]

Easily, the most transferrable skill is shooting 30 shots when one or two would do the job. Of course, I'm also kidding too.

In all seriousness though, I would say maybe some aspects of MILSIM or Woodsball might provide some skills. Speedball though wouldn't provide much if anything IMO.

[Magmerc]

I know the point shooting / reflex thing has already been covered, but to add my two cents a paintball gun and a rifle or handgun are two totally different things. That said, when I shoot in pistol competitions I only use sights on far shots, steel, or targets with body armor / hostages. I've practiced with it enough (and its a longslide) that close shots are just point and shoot. And in the open gun class, at the rates of fire open gunners shoot the red dot in their sights bounce like crazy and can barely be used, except a little bit on the first shot. "Find the dot find the dot find the dot..."

Beyond that, I've only noticed two things I've learned from paintball that can actually transfer to shooting competively. The mindset (right word?) of being safe and aware of whats around you and whether or not the guns loaded, round in the chamber, on safe, don't break the 180, et cetera. And being able to use cover in IDPA, though those people ALWAYS find a reason to hit you with a penalty. Beyond that, paintball and firearms don't mix. And you don't want to go into a shooting match thinking paintball, or vice versa.

[Dover]

reball was just awesome today, roasted people with a classic Automag (drop shots ftw) and i have a LOT to learn when using a paintball pistol...

i tend to go kamikaze and rush in alone instead of communicating and using team-mates :(

[38super]

[QUOTE=MagmercAnd in the open gun class, at the rates of fire open gunners shoot the red dot in their sights bounce like crazy and can barely be used, except a little bit on the first shot. "Find the dot find the dot find the dot..."
[/QUOTE]
I watch my dot on every single shot I fire from arm's length distance out to 50 yards. There is no problem tracking the dot in recoil or on transitions if you use the correct techniques, and you can shoot just as fast seeing this visual feedback as you can not seeing it (and missing as a result).

Thread hijack over....

[behemoth]

I watch my dot on every single shot I fire from arm's length distance out to 50 yards. There is no problem tracking the dot in recoil or on transitions if you use the correct techniques, and you can shoot just as fast seeing this visual feedback as you can not seeing it (and missing as a result).

Thread hijack over....

WIth a name like 38 super and talking about dots.... Lets see that race gun.

[38super]

WIth a name like 38 super and talking about dots.... Lets see that race gun.
Sure thing.
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/relliott_photos/?action=view&current=12-29-09_lastgroup.jpg
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee1/relliott_photos/?action=view&current=100_0423.jpg

[spece108]

I've tried to ask this question a few times and have always gotten a muddled response. But since you displayed your beautiful toys....

As a design vehicle do you find any advantage to your CZ based guns over the 1911 ( guessing sti frame?).

Can you get a higher grip with the web of your hand a touch higher to bring recoil more in line, less muzzle rise?

Does going to the heavier caliber negate this at all? Ie, do you like the 1911 frame better for 40 or 45?

Do ploymer frames flex enough to help even slightly or is it just a bit of bumper, recoil sink effect?

Last, trigger geometry. Pivot versus straight, does hand position matter with the choice? Do you prefer one over the other?

Sorry, lots o questions :shooting:

[38super]

Tanfoglio gun is a little better for pure ergonomics, though the STI (2011) has new grip available that address this manufactured by SVI. They just cost too much and add too much weight for my taste.

Tanfo frames and slides are currently made from castings and then surface hardened, whereas STI's are cut from forged billet. Durability is key in a high round count sport like IPSC/USPSA, so the STI gets the nod there

Both guns shoot exceedingly well....better than me. I can shoot as well with ether gun, but the Tanflglio is now my back-up and the STI my primary.

I like steel framed guns a lot but the STI is modular with polymer grip insert and Ive got it balanced and weighted to my taste. Both guns soak recoil about the same. Honestly, I have NEVER noticed any flexing in the frame. The Tanfo sits a little lower in the hand for what should amount to a little better control of the recoil arc, but again, the timer tells me the story that both guns in my hands shoot the same split/transition times.

.40 caliber isn't competitive in this division, but if I was shooting standard right now it would be with either an STI framed custom gun or a Tanfo set up with a good set of adjustable (Bomar style) sights. I LOVE .45 ACP but it's just too expensive now and too hard to get brass. Also gives up some mag capacity to .40 S&W, so .40 it would be. I would likely shoot a bullet of 185 or 200 grains....preferring the 200.

Triggers: I love the pivoting trigger when set up properly, however, since I do my own lock work I have both guns set up exactly to personal taste so I can go back and forth between them with no issues. The pivoting trigger has been heavily worked to shorten the take-up and reset as well as move the whole trigger reach (sear engagement point) back closer to the frame. I can't say now which I prefer...as they both pull at about 20 oz and have quick, positive resets so they can let me shoot as fast as I can see the sights settle.


I've tried to ask this question a few times and have always gotten a muddled response. But since you displayed your beautiful toys....

As a design vehicle do you find any advantage to your CZ based guns over the 1911 ( guessing sti frame?).

Can you get a higher grip with the web of your hand a touch higher to bring recoil more in line, less muzzle rise?

Does going to the heavier caliber negate this at all? Ie, do you like the 1911 frame better for 40 or 45?

Do ploymer frames flex enough to help even slightly or is it just a bit of bumper, recoil sink effect?

Last, trigger geometry. Pivot versus straight, does hand position matter with the choice? Do you prefer one over the other?

Sorry, lots o questions :shooting:

[behemoth]

Those are some beautiful guns.

I wish there was a following around here. My buddy from Canada grew up in a club that was big into idpa and ipsc, and as such got into it.

I wish I could just stumble into it here.

[38super]

Those are some beautiful guns.

I wish there was a following around here. My buddy from Canada grew up in a club that was big into idpa and ipsc, and as such got into it.

I wish I could just stumble into it here.
I don't know where you are but USPSA has probably/definitely got better saturation nationally than we do here with IPSC in Canada. You might be closer to a participating club than you know.

[Pneumagger]

Well, when you shoot a .38 super (versus a real caliber) my guess is that you can see the red dot all day long trough the recoil... or lack thereof.

:ninja: :argh:

[38super]

Well, when you shoot a .38 super (versus a real caliber) my guess is that you can see the red dot all day long trough the recoil... or lack thereof.

:ninja: :argh:
.38 super delivers roughly the same energy out the business end as a .357 magnum and the same in recoil, so I guess it's real enough for me.

It's surprisingly easy to loose track of the dot (or iron sights on non-race guns) in hi speed shooting, but correct practice of correct techniques helps eliminate this.