1500 rounds on a 68/45 & 950 on a 68/3000

[hill160881]

Ya I screwed it up again :mad: There are two videos as I did not realize that the slow shots at the end of video one was due to the paint in the barrel, not low air. So Devilman turned it back on to finish. You only missed 30 rounds maybe. So he was a witness.

Setup is an EP classic mag with NO barrel matching, .690 barrel, and completely stock unmodified L7 bolt.so not the most efficient I can make it by far. I drilled 4 more small holes in the devolumizing insert to take a little out for tuning purposes. I want a 1500 round insert and a 1700 round insert. The other thing i will do before the next test is to lock tight the tourney lock so the valve does not turn it self down 10 fps.

Also it is important to say that the marker used was only used so I would not have to pull the trigger 3000 times and it needs fine tuning as a part broke inside the frame and caused several short strokes and chops. They were chops not brakes, before the part broke I shot a full case with no brakes or chops.

DXS field paint in these videos. bottle filled 10 min before and toped off to 4500 psi just before i shot. O look a tree, my favorite target,hehe Go to the next video for the end of this test I forgot to check to see that it was actually out of air and not the crap in the barrel
<iframe width="640" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7lMbdIjGIC4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/keyNe0jWd2Y?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


The second attempt. 68/3000 on a hot fill. 950 rounds of $25 a case bonus ball. A cross pin that holds the ram in place came loose and really screwed of this video, but it is efficiency not the pneumatics being tested here, sort of.

<iframe width="640" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wYKW4RW4pXY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


So a little fine tuning and I will have two prototypes to send off to have made into aluminum inserts that won't put someones eye out. ;)

[captian pinky]

wow hill you continue to amaze me. i was talking with skeeter today about the mag efficiency and specifically mentioned your name and here you go and put a vid up lol

good job and continue to test tune and convert non believers

:shooting: :shooting:

[Joelus Morolus]

hill im subscribed to you on youtube, saw your videos, found this thread, but my main question is

HOW? did you do this!?

[Tropical Life]

Beast...nothing else....

[captian pinky]

see when hill was born his mom secretly had tom kaye as the pool boy and well..... special hugs..... and now we have super duper mags lol

[hill160881]

^^^Might make that my sig^^^

Here is how and I can do more. I did not even have the modified bolt in it and that is 15 fps right there.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257441

[captian pinky]

i thought it was pretty good too

[Fatalis]

Just let me know what your PP info is so I can pre-order. ! Subscribed!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[hill160881]

y0da900 is making the first set of inserts and if all goes well I will see if he is interested in making a run of them.

I still need to make another one and try to get it to 1700 shots but this will be for the pump player and Classic player. I still need to put it on a mechanical marker and also test it in several classic valves to insure consistent results from valve to valve.

But soon, some how some way I hope to get a set of two inserts, One for 1500 rounds and one for 1700 rounds, on the market.

Since i dont have the ability to make these myself it will probably be another known shop or individual here that actually sells them. As usual since I have no way to make a profit with this type of mod I see no reason not to give it to a company/shop that can actually make them and some money. :cheers:

[Newt]

This is probably a dumb question, but is there any chance this will be adaptable to the x style valves?

[hill160881]

This is probably a dumb question, but is there any chance this will be adaptable to the x style valves?


Check the thread I linked to. I am working on an insert for the X-valve as well. Just have not tested it yet.

[cyrus-the-virus]

I'd be interested in the x-valve version. Only compatible with the L7 or will the L10 work as well?

[hill160881]

That remains to be seen with the type of bolt, but I would think the L10 would still work fine. It may not work as an anti chop though.


God I Love shooting the Pin striped purple mag. It always brings a smile to the face at 26 bps hehe. I forgot it was set for speed testing.

The first test with the one in the X-valve and it is as big as I can make it and get it to crono. The valve is one full turn from maxed out. I dont know how much the savings is as I cant afford to test it at the moment. I will do a 68/300 test maybe tomorrow.

Every time I try to do this with a Level 10 I get the bolt bouncing all over the place so the L10 may not work. It is caused by extra pressure in the shot chamber I think. I am going to shorten the stem on a bolt and use a slitley longer spring and see if that fixes it. If not then it looks like the L7 is the only other option.

Edit: A longer spring seems to have fixed it.

[Newt]

Does this change the sound signature much?

[hill160881]

Not a lot, but some. when I had the moded power tube tip and oring tipped bolt in, it made a big difference in the sound. But I need a lathe to do those mods to the right tolerances.

[Pudgey51]

subscribed to both threads...really looking forward to see if this works in field testing, if it does i def will be trying to get a finished product. plans to mass produce it for all of us? :D

[Newt]

Not a lot, but some. when I had the moded power tube tip and oring tipped bolt in, it made a big difference in the sound. But I need a lathe to do those mods to the right tolerances.
Sweet. Those were the aspects of the mod I'm most interested in. So those are probably the biggest efficiency gains? do you mind posting how deep you cut those oring glands?

[hill160881]

My micrometer does not fit in a gap that small so i dont really know. I will try to find out. Also the ULE body has shown issues with destroying the orings. I think the ball detents need a larger oring to keep the threaded part totally out of the breach. Once i have the right equipment I will do the oring on the bolt right and get a proper test.

I will have the test inserts soon and will need some people who want to pay cost + shipping as long as they give me some feed back. That is 5 of each, the classic and X valves. Just five for now so I can see if any changes need to be made. You will need the red power tube oring. Not sure on the cost but it will not be much.

[Newt]

I hadn't thought of the detents. You might just need to go with a higher durometer oring to keep the threads out. Funny they protrude so far in the first place.

In either case, I've looked for oring gland info on the net with zero luck before, but I tried it again this morning for kicks and scrounged THIS (http://www.engineersedge.com/general_engineering/oring_gland_size_dynamic_cylinder.htm) up. Thought it might be of use.
:cheers:

EDIT:
I ran across this as well:
http://www.parker.com/literature/ORD%205700%20Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf

[cockerpunk]

with a solid underbore i was rockin 1300 or so on a 68/45. be great to combine these methods, then the mags would have realistic effienecy.

[hill160881]

with a solid underbore i was rockin 1300 or so on a 68/45. be great to combine these methods, then the mags would have realistic effienecy.


Ya I purposely used an old .690 and did not try to get better #s. If I tuned it to the max and shot 275, i think it would brake 1600.

With a classic valve the down fall is rate of fire,limited to 11 bps before shoot-down. With the X-valve no shoot-down seen, even at 20+ bps.

I am hoping for good results with the first inserts I get into peoples hands. The main thing i am looking for is that they drop in and work with little tuning.

[cockerpunk]

Ya I purposely used an old .690 and did not try to get better #s. If I tuned it to the max and shot 275, i think it would brake 1600.

With a classic valve the down fall is rate of fire,limited to 11 bps before shoot-down. With the X-valve no shoot-down seen, even at 20+ bps.

I am hoping for good results with the first inserts I get into peoples hands. The main thing i am looking for is that they drop in and work with little tuning.

i think you also need to be careful about bolt speed and power pulse peak. the reason the air chamber is so large is the shape the of the power pulse on the automag to both limit bolts speed 9and thus bolt strike) and prevent a strong peak in the power pulse of the gun. your bascially doing the exact opposite, which like we see is good of effiency, but at some point your going to be hurting performance in terms of paint roughness.

[hill160881]

That is why i backed off the 1700 round insert. It would be to close to braking balls in the barrel with the faster, higher pressure cycle, and the valve leaked at 300 fps. TK went for a slightly softer stroke at the compromise of efficiency, for a good reason, but now that paint is way more consistent than in those days I think Its time to see if a bit more force will play without issues.

It is worth mentioning that this is an old idea and nothing new. I have been working on what others have said there best performance was with 12 gram co2. The next step was to put it into a fast shooter and see the real #. I just dont think anyone has made a drop in insert. There may very well be a good reason for this, but until a few are tested in real world conditions i wont know that my results were not a fluk.

[DevilMan]

Just so ya know Hill, I have a 12G changer... and a box of 12's.. I'll get to ya one of these days.

DM

[Newt]

i think you also need to be careful about bolt speed and power pulse peak. the reason the air chamber is so large is the shape the of the power pulse on the automag to both limit bolts speed 9and thus bolt strike) and prevent a strong peak in the power pulse of the gun. your bascially doing the exact opposite, which like we see is good of effiency, but at some point your going to be hurting performance in terms of paint roughness.
In other words, if this goes to market it should probably have a couple sizes like in the new Dye guns. People who play mostly with six month old paint with a yoked scuba tank in the back woods like me will happily take a couple smeared barrels t squeeze out a few more rounds. On the tourney field saving a trip to the fill station is nice when your team is on deck, but man, you gotta treat that evil paint right.