RT tuning

[93klauss]

So got the mag to fire some quick 3 shot burst, looking for a little more. 1200 psi reg from ninja 4 shims in the ULT. x valve LV X.

Wondering more shims in LV X? Or more in ULT? Or cut the spring?

Any ideas where would be the best place to start?

Guessing the level X shims. I am not running at all right now.

Thx Guys

Think I'm almost there!!! :cheers:

[robander3]

You should have about 2 or so shims in the lvl 10 PT, (lvl 10 shims are twice as big as ULT shims) So that when the bolt pinches a ball it can release and reset.
And every xvalve is different, I get mine to RT at 900 PSI at around 10 (guessing) bps. Adding more shims to the ULT to fine tune it will allow it to RT more so,
Add shims to the ULT until its too reactive and then back off one shim...

-Rob

[Ando]

What issues are you having that your only getting 3 shot bursts?
Does it leak afterwards?
Does the trigger go limp?
Does it chuff after the 3 shots?
Bolt stick?

Try oiling it first before you do anything. Put about 5 drops at the QD of the valve and shoot it out.

Adding shims to the lvl 10 isn't going to help. Add shims to your ULT will make the pin smaller and more reactive. Be careful, If you add too many, it'll go full auto.

You'll get better results with a stock on/off.

[93klauss]

What issues are you having that your only getting 3 shot bursts?
Does it leak afterwards?
Does the trigger go limp?
Does it chuff after the 3 shots?
Bolt stick?

Try oiling it first before you do anything. Put about 5 drops at the QD of the valve and shoot it out.

Adding shims to the lvl 10 isn't going to help. Add shims to your ULT will make the pin smaller and more reactive. Be careful, If you add too many, it'll go full auto.

You'll get better results with a stock on/off.


More of a chuff! Or ball just rolling out the barrel. no bolt stick or limp trigger!

[robander3]

More of a chuff! Or ball just rolling out the barrel. no bolt stick or limp trigger!

When the lvl 10 activates the trigger has to be fully reset, meaning that when it "chufs" the rt effect stops for that shooting spree

stupid question, are you feeding the balls fast enough into the gun?

does it do the same thing dry firing? meaning 3 shot burst then a chuff...

-Rob

[athomas]

Adding level 10 shims causes more problems than it helps. If the gun shoots, chuffs, coughs, or leaks air in any way, adding level 10 shims will not help. Level shims installed while tuning can cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. If this happens, it slows down the bolt cycle which has an adverse affect on the RT effect or shooting in general. It can cause short stroking or even bolt stick. Only add level 10 shims if the gun attempts to shoot, and the bolt moves forward but does not go far enough to release any air to allow it to reset. This is usually only a few thousandth's of an inch. Most of the time, any blockage that the bolt contacts will still allow enough movement to expose the vent hole and allow air to leak out which will in turn allow the bolt to reset.

More shims in the ULT is a good place to start if you want the RT effect. Add shims one at a time until you get uncontrollable RTing. Then remove the shim that caused it.

Using a short bolt spring decreases the chamber pressure required and therefore increases the pressure differential between the source and chamber which is what the RT effect is based around. Using a proper length barrel for best efficiency will also increase the RT effect for the same reason.

A properly tune level 10 is a big help because it makes sure the bolt is back in place when the trigger is released so that there is no extra friction on the bolt due to the sear. If this happens, it slows the bolt return and interrupts the charge discharge cycle.

A fast hopper is a necessity. Any blockage such as a partially fed ball will interrupt the cycle.

The whole RT effect is based on differential force between the input pressure and chamber pressure but it needs to have the bolt cycle fast enough to be out of the way when the sear is pushed forward by the on-off pin. The forward momentum of the push should provide enough time to charge the chamber with enough air so when your finger pressure reverses the direction of the trigger movement, the gun is ready to fire.

[93klauss]

Dry firing and have very little if any added shims in ULT to the point where the on off barley fit, After 50 or so shots the PT carrier oring went, leaving me with a leak down the barrel. Already on 0 for a carrier. Tried another on .5 and more leaks down the barrel. going to try 0 later. So I think new orings are in order.

Anyine know if the PT carrier oring is a standard oring, say that you could find at a hardwear store?

[athomas]

Sure, you should be able to find that oring at a store that sells orings. I'm not sure if its a standard off the shelf size though. I can't remember the exact size off the top of my head, so I can't even make reference. Use a 90 durometer oring if available. Use urethane for best abrasion resistance but buna will work really well in the short term. A 70 durometer buna oring will allow you to tune your level 10 better because it is softer, but it won't last as long.

[93klauss]

Adding level 10 shims causes more problems than it helps. If the gun shoots, chuffs, coughs, or leaks air in any way, adding level 10 shims will not help. Level shims installed while tuning can cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. If this happens, it slows down the bolt cycle which has an adverse affect on the RT effect or shooting in general. It can cause short stroking or even bolt stick. Only add level 10 shims if the gun attempts to shoot, and the bolt moves forward but does not go far enough to release any air to allow it to reset. This is usually only a few thousandth's of an inch. Most of the time, any blockage that the bolt contacts will still allow enough movement to expose the vent hole and allow air to leak out which will in turn allow the bolt to reset.

More shims in the ULT is a good place to start if you want the RT effect. Add shims one at a time until you get uncontrollable RTing. Then remove the shim that caused it.

Using a short bolt spring decreases the chamber pressure required and therefore increases the pressure differential between the source and chamber which is what the RT effect is based around. Using a proper length barrel for best efficiency will also increase the RT effect for the same reason.

A properly tune level 10 is a big help because it makes sure the bolt is back in place when the trigger is released so that there is no extra friction on the bolt due to the sear. If this happens, it slows the bolt return and interrupts the charge discharge cycle.

A fast hopper is a necessity. Any blockage such as a partially fed ball will interrupt the cycle.

The whole RT effect is based on differential force between the input pressure and chamber pressure but it needs to have the bolt cycle fast enough to be out of the way when the sear is pushed forward by the on-off pin. The forward momentum of the push should provide enough time to charge the chamber with enough air so when your finger pressure reverses the direction of the trigger movement, the gun is ready to fire.


So if Iam getting what your saying. To me it sounds that I had a carrier to small, causing the bolt to slow.= NO RT Which also caused the oring more wear. Shorting the life of the oring. Adding shims to the Ult would not help bc the bolt was still in the way of the sear thus slowing the bolt even more.

So new carrier orings! And re tune.

Cutting down the spring will increase the rt due to the different pressures.

I am currentlly running the warp w/o the 12 vt mod. Big cell.

The sweet spot on a woman is easier to find!! :D

[athomas]

The oring life isn't affected by anything other than what the oring is made from. The RT effect won't cause the oring to wear out.

I think you have the idea now. Also, check that the warp isn't pushing the balls too far into the breach. If it does a partial double feed, the next ball in the stack would be sticking into the breach which could cause a chuff. If this is the case, you made need to check your detents or alter the force or duration of the warp

[Ando]

Don't just willy-nilly cut your spring. Look in the tech section of the forums and find the "Official Level 10 Problems" thread. Look around for ^^^this guys^^^ post on how to tune it. Hes posted it about 20 times for 20 different people.

If your wanting a more reactive trigger, go with a stock on/off and shave the pin down.

You already have the tank covered so that's not going to be a issue.

[Flatliner333]

This may be a dumb question but if the velocity is adjusted too low will this retard the RT effect ?

[93klauss]

Don't just willy-nilly cut your spring. Look in the tech section of the forums and find the "Official Level 10 Problems" thread. Look around for ^^^this guys^^^ post on how to tune it. Hes posted it about 20 times for 20 different people.

If your wanting a more reactive trigger, go with a stock on/off and shave the pin down.

You already have the tank covered so that's not going to be a issue.


Did try the stock on off. With a .712 on off pin with quad oring. No RT tried adding ult and got very little, think this was do to poor tuning of the level X. from what I've read this set up should rip.

For tuning purposes start with stock, get that to RT. Then try adding the ult?

Anyone find the carrier oring at a local hardware store by chance? Tuna says they are not a stock oring.

[Ando]

For tuning purposes start with stock, get that to RT. Then try adding the ult?
Yes, that setup should be shooting ridiculously. Are you sure your tank it putting out what it's suppose too?

Tune the lvl 10 with the stock on/off then go from there.

[93klauss]

Yes, that setup should be shooting ridiculously. Are you sure your tank it putting out what it's suppose too?

Tune the lvl 10 with the stock on/off then go from there.

Yea its a preset 1200 from ninja air :D , so I would hope.

Thanks

[Ando]

Did you put a gauge on it?

[93klauss]

Did you put a gauge on it?


No dice there. the feilds up here dont even have one. Maybe the dive shop? any other ideas where to get this tested?

I would hope that the regs are tested before they leave ninja!

[stevewar]

In an PM converation I had with Tuna, he says the ULT won't ever be highly reactive. I'm so confused now. Is the stock on / off the way to go if you're looking for a super reactive trigger?

[Ando]

If your wanting a more reactive trigger, go with a stock on/off and shave the pin down.

Yes :cheers:

If you have a ASA on the marker, just use it. Put a gauge on one of the sides and air it up.

[stevewar]

Yes :cheers:

If you have a ASA on the marker, just use it. Put a gauge on one of the sides and air it up.

Thanks Ando, looks like it's time to try and trade my ULT for a stock on off and a .712 pin.

[athomas]

In an PM converation I had with Tuna, he says the ULT won't ever be highly reactive. I'm so confused now. Is the stock on / off the way to go if you're looking for a super reactive trigger?Its not meant to be reactive and won't be in normal situations. However, if you put on a 1200psi input and shim the ULT so that the sear hardly moves, then it can get reactive. But, with the ULT, you need to have everything perfectly tuned in order for it to occur.

With the regular on-off setup, it has much more force differential and the higher top force overcomes any friction issues there might be. The regular on-off is more likely to be reactive with very minor tweaks.