Mystery Problem... ULE Body out of wack?

[sQuidvision]

Ok! so im completely stumped... granted i am fairly new to mags, but i made sure to try to do my homework before posting... im just hoping someone can set me straight :)

First up, the Problem:

I gas up, no leaks, i get resistance on the trigger (stiff not soggy), but when i pull the trigger i get nothing...

So here is the setup:

-Warp Left ULE Body
-Emag Valve w/lvl10 Bolt
-Z-Grip
-HPA tank (full, 900 PSI output)
-Sear armature pin set to have a credit card width gap between trigger when gassed up.
-.75 on/off pin
-On/Off is not using the emag "quad" orings
-AM/MM rail
-Warp Feed w/Halo 2 (i am sure that its not related... but WTH... doesn't hurt to be throughout...)
-New style AM/MM sear (T shaped instead of having the "triangle" like end)

I did the milling on the AM/MM rail and have made ABSOLUTELY sure that there is clearance for the body... its over milled by at least 1/8" on all sides where the warp comes out.

I had to mill down the threaded "thingy" on the bottom of the ULE body a tiny bit to get it to sit flush in the rail (i hear thats a common problem with the ULE's and AM/MM rails), i have made absolutely sure the body sits flush in the rail.

I also had this problem when i had my benchmark trigger frame on but with the benchmark a Minimag valve (level7) would cycle in the ULE body without issue. Now that the Z is on i cant get anything to cycle.

I have tried turning up the velocity as well...

The Emag valve cycles fine in a minimag body (havent tried the minimag body with the Z grip yet)

im stumped!

[TwilightG]

Ok! so im completely stumped... granted i am fairly new to mags, but i made sure to try to do my homework before posting... im just hoping someone can set me straight :)

First up, the Problem:

I gas up, no leaks, i get resistance on the trigger (stiff not soggy), but when i pull the trigger i get nothing...

So here is the setup:

-Warp Left ULE Body
-Emag Valve w/lvl10 Bolt
-Z-Grip
-HPA tank (full, 900 PSI output)
-Sear armature pin set to have a credit card width gap between trigger when gassed up.
-.75 on/off pin
-On/Off is not using the emag "quad" orings
-AM/MM rail
-Warp Feed w/Halo 2 (i am sure that its not related... but WTH... doesn't hurt to be throughout...)
-New style AM/MM sear (T shaped instead of having the "triangle" like end)

I did the milling on the AM/MM rail and have made ABSOLUTELY sure that there is clearance for the body... its over milled by at least 1/8" on all sides where the warp comes out.

I had to mill down the threaded "thingy" on the bottom of the ULE body a tiny bit to get it to sit flush in the rail (i hear thats a common problem with the ULE's and AM/MM rails), i have made absolutely sure the body sits flush in the rail.

I also had this problem when i had my benchmark trigger frame on but with the benchmark a Minimag valve (level7) would cycle in the ULE body without issue. Now that the Z is on i cant get anything to cycle.

I have tried turning up the velocity as well...

The Emag valve cycles fine in a minimag body (havent tried the minimag body with the Z grip yet)

im stumped!
Sounds like you milled the "pim". I've never heard of this being necessary for a ULE body. Hopefully it doesn't cause you any alignment problems later. I've only heard of this being necessary for AM/MM bodies on E-Mag rails (but I could be wrong)

Since you've swapped trigger frames, first thing that comes to mind is to make sure the rail bushing is still there to align the rail and frame.

[Ando]

Stupid question but have you tried turning up the velocity? Stay with the gold stock spring before moving to a larger one.

[sQuidvision]

Twilightg, I milled the (pim?) Slightly at the advice of roman with AGD support... I guess its only an issue with some of the older AM/MM rails... I do still have the rail bushing.

Ando, never hurts to ask the 'stupid user' questions especially with a newb like me, but yes I did mention in my first post I tried turning up the velocity.

Also, a quick update, I was able to get the minimag valve to cycle with the z-grip, I had to shorten the armature pin by a half turn to get it to work... still having issues with the emag valve though. MAGpie thinks its bolt stick... does that sound resonable? I will try pulling the shims (and a different carrier when I get them in the mail.)

[Ando]

Which bolt spring do you have installed? If it's the long gray one then there's your problem.

[sQuidvision]

Which bolt spring do you have installed? If it's the long gray one then there's your problem.
Its the gold spring... I wish it was that easy!

[Ando]

If the emag valve is cycling fine in your other marker then it's not bolt stick. You might have to mess with the frame and thumb screws, the milling might have thrown something off. Just snug down the frame screw and loosely hand tight the thumb screw. Air it up and fiddle with both.

I have a mag that does this same thing. I have to tighten the thumb screw down with an allen key to get it cycling properly.

[TwilightG]

Twilightg, I milled the (pim?) Slightly at the advice of roman with AGD support... I guess its only an issue with some of the older AM/MM rails... I do still have the rail bushing.

Ando, never hurts to ask the 'stupid user' questions especially with a newb like me, but yes I did mention in my first post I tried turning up the velocity.

Also, a quick update, I was able to get the minimag valve to cycle with the z-grip, I had to shorten the armature pin by a half turn to get it to work... still having issues with the emag valve though. MAGpie thinks its bolt stick... does that sound resonable? I will try pulling the shims (and a different carrier when I get them in the mail.)
It would have to fire first in order for the bolt to stick. Also, you'd hear a leak if it was bolt stick.

since you've had to adjust the armature pin for the MM valve, I suspect that you might need to do the same for the e-mag valve. the on/off pin lengths are probably different and you've already mentioned not using the quad o-rings. It could be making the on/off pin too long.
I don't know the spec. off hand, but try to search for the factory length of that trigger arm.

[sQuidvision]

Thanks guys, I didn't think it was an issue with bolt stick... but what do I know :D

I will try to shorten that armature pin a little more for the emag valve. I also ordered a new sear from AGD last night... I will be sure to post up the factory length as soon as I get it!

[sQuidvision]

New sear assembly came... though i am out of air... the stock length of that pin is 2" on the dot (to the back of the whole assembly, not to where the clip goes through the sear)

I measured the length of the one i had in there and it was quite a bit longer... i will test with the factory settings and post the results.

[athomas]

Sounds like you milled the "pim". I've never heard of this being necessary for a ULE body. Hopefully it doesn't cause you any alignment problems later. I've only heard of this being necessary for AM/MM bodies on E-Mag rails (but I could be wrong)Emag bodies bottom out on the AM/MM rails due to the bodies having a longer pim. There is milling on the AM/MM bodies to be used in Emag/retro rails though, because the pim on the AM/MM bodies is oblong and the RT/emag rail has a round hole.

sQuidvision: There has been the odd ULE body that has had clearance issues on AM/MM rails. Since the pim has been filed, that issue is no longer a concern. Having it filed down won't cause issues later on, so you are good to go.

The problem is probably not bolt stick if the valve is working in another gun. That being said, for future reference, lack of a shot could be caused by bolt stick as well. Bolt stick doesn't have to occur after a shot. It can occur prior to a shot. Bolt stick refers to any lack of movement from the bolt when the sear releases it. This includes not resetting properly and also not moving forward properly. They can all be caused by the same problem of a carrier that is too tight or a bolt spring that is too long.

Check the length of the on-off pin assembly. It should be fine though, with your setup. Using the emag valve is the same as a regular retro valve, so a pin of 0.750" or shorter will work with the standard on-off top orings. If you had used the quad orings, you may have needed a shorter pin due to the sealing point moving farther out the on-off assembly.

The Z-grip trigger assembly may not move the sear the same distance as a regular trigger frame. Make sure the sear is rotating far enough to release the bolt and also that it is going far enough forward to open the on-off. I suspect that one of those movements is related to your problem. Have you tried a regular grip frame on the rail with the emag valve assembly?

[sQuidvision]

An update for you all! The zgrip and a mm valve are shooting just fine together (with the exception of some shoot down... uhg) the emag valve also ran like a champion in my aboMAGnation today ( pics later tonight hopefully...)

I will have another ULE body to test he emag valve in by the end of the week and also an xvalve to test in my current ULE body.

When I have time I will throw the emag valve back in with the stock sear... I'm thinking that's going to do the trick though.

Thanks all for your help!