Bolt Stick???

[Loneassassin]

Gun is an RT ULE w/ X-valve, ULT, and pneumag mods.

Tonight I went out to play a few games, excited to try out my new Micro-rock Lpr and Crossfire Hp reg. For the first 100 shots or so, it was like a machine gun. I could walk it possibly up to 16bps (I think it was bouncing a little too, hehe.) But after the first 100 shots or so, I had an issue. When I pulled the trigger, it wouldn't shoot. At first I thought it had something to do with the new Lpr, but then I heard the sear "click" and I could shoot again. Unfortunately, from then on, I'd get 1 or 2 shots, then it would lock up, and I'd have to wait about 10 seconds for the sear to reset. I even took the hopper off once and reset the bolt by hand.

Anyway, does this sound like classic bolt stick? It's a lvl 10 bolt, btw. And I've also noticed when I stick my finger in the feedneck to check the lvl 10 effect, it seems to have more force than it used to; I think it would probably chop a ball.

So I took the gun apart tonight to check the bolt spring, and it's about 1/8" from the end of the bolt. I thought maybe a new spring might be in order. Your thoughts?

[Ando]

Were you resting it with your finger?

I would for GP just go up a carrier and see if it leaks. If it does then you know you had the proper carrier installed.

[Loneassassin]

Do you mean resting my finger on the trigger? If so, no.

I don't think going up a carrier size is the answer, as last year, I had to use the next smallest one because I was getting leaks.

I've been oiling the gun regularly through the asa, but maybe I should take it apart and apply lube directly?

One thing I forgot to mention is that the problem gets worse and worse the lower the tank pressure gets, and not necessarily at extremely low pressure. At 1200 psi and below, it becomes difficult to shoot even one ball every 10 seconds, due to the bolt sticking.

The only other theory I've thought about is that I was shooting some kind of irregularly shaped/sized paint. Some of it rolled through my .684 back, and some was slightly snug. I'm wondering if the lvl 10 effect was activating on some of the larger balls, and not quite resetting.

Unfortunately, I'm away from home and don't have my larger barrels to try.

[Newt]

Ando is asking if you're reseting the bolt with your finger, ie: sticking the finger in through the body front or through the feedneck and pushing back to reset.

Your oil practice should be fine. Manually wetting orings should not be needed, but cant hurt.

By the time the paint is moving into the barrel, the Lvl X is already past "nice guy mode" and is going full speed. Even if you're severely underboring, it will load and ask for more.



Some things to try:

1) New orings, especially the carrier oring.
2) Follow the Lvl X tuning procedure.
3) For troubleshooting, remove the pneu frame and swap for a standard setup. If that fixes the issue, you know you have some pneu tuning work.
4) Check your regs. The 1200psi comment makes me want to suspect the crossfire reg's recharge rate. Is it possible it was dissembled and some part was not put back together correctly? You can also take your micro rock apart and clean/lube it.

As always, do ONE THING AT A TIME. Otherwise you can only guess what the fix really was.

[Loneassassin]

Ando is asking if you're reseting the bolt with your finger, ie: sticking the finger in through the body front or through the feedneck and pushing back to reset.

Your oil practice should be fine. Manually wetting orings should not be needed, but cant hurt.

By the time the paint is moving into the barrel, the Lvl X is already past "nice guy mode" and is going full speed. Even if you're severely underboring, it will load and ask for more.



Some things to try:

1) New orings, especially the carrier oring.
2) Follow the Lvl X tuning procedure.
3) For troubleshooting, remove the pneu frame and swap for a standard setup. If that fixes the issue, you know you have some pneu tuning work.
4) Check your regs. The 1200psi comment makes me want to suspect the crossfire reg's recharge rate. Is it possible it was dissembled and some part was not put back together correctly? You can also take your micro rock apart and clean/lube it.

As always, do ONE THING AT A TIME. Otherwise you can only guess what the fix really was.

Thanks for the info. That's good to know that it's not the barrel/paint match. None of the paint really fit what I would call "tight" anyway.

And yes, I was removing my hopper and resetting my bolt with my finger. It took minimal effort to reset it, which leads me to think that maybe just a slightly stronger spring would fix the problem. How far should the spring be past the end of the bolt at rest? Mine is only about 1/8." I have a silver spring I could trim to just a little longer than my gold one.

The Crossfire reg is practically new, I've only put a couple of cases through it on my other guns. The recharge rate seems to be excellent, because at least with a full fill, I've never been able to walk my pneumag that fast without chuffing. It's working WAY better than my Myth'd tank (which, by the way, is not working as well either, can't walk the trigger without chuffing, at any pressure.)

I suppose I could try to rebuild my Micro rock, because I bought it used. But at least when my Crossfire is full, everything seems to work really well. I think that tank was down to around 2500psi when I first noticed this problem, and it steadily got worse from there.

[hill160881]

Try a different tank, then use a bolt spring 1/2" longer than the bolt face. Cut a grey or red one down. Insure the body screw and valve screw are not to tight as well.

Also replace all orings in the valve if problem prissiest.

[Newt]

If you're getting true bolt stick (ie: you do have to push it back with your finger), then first things first, plug through the standard lvl10 tuning procedure. Also, hill is correct. 1/8" spring is way too short.

[Loneassassin]

Okay, I'll try all of that. Minus the tank, I don't have anything else available to try.

One more question about bolt springs - the one I have in there now fits slightly loose around the bolt, but the silver spring I'm going to cut fits rather tightly around the bolt. I actually have to force it on. Is that going to cause a problem, or is it something that will wear-in over time? Should there be any lube on the inside of the spring so that the bolt can slide through more easily?

[hill160881]

That is normal, and no lube needed.

[Ando]

Don't just go cutting that spring. Find the tutorial that AThomas did in the lvl 10 problem thread and go step by step. If you go cutting without knowing what your doing. You just going to cause more issues.

[my automag]

Don't just go cutting that spring. Find the tutorial that AThomas did in the lvl 10 problem thread and go step by step. If you go cutting without knowing what your doing. You just going to cause more issues.



For sure what he said... pricey issues, a bit of nerve, and time too.

Try the other carrier anyway, or inspect every part well...

Sounds like one of your o-rings is worn, OR dirty, and as the air pressure supply gets lower from your tank so does the sealing capability of the o-ring in the worn area from either slower recharge or lowed pressure of air on the working/not working o-ring. :confused: :p

[Loneassassin]

Don't just go cutting that spring. Find the tutorial that AThomas did in the lvl 10 problem thread and go step by step. If you go cutting without knowing what your doing. You just going to cause more issues.


I looked through that thread for about two hours last night and I still couldn't find any exact directions for trimming the spring. I was thinking I'd just cut the silver spring so that it's about 1/4" longer than my gold spring. Is the silver spring stiffer or something, necessitating the extra care in cutting it?

As far as I understand, using a stiffer/longer spring is the best way to soften the level 10 effect, other than using a tighter carrier fit? I definitely want to make the lvl 10 effect a little gentler, in addition to fixing my bolt stick problems. The way it is, I think it would still chop a ball, though I use a Prophecy which has no trouble feeding quite fast.

[athomas]

Don't use carriers to soften the effect of the level 10. Always use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

As for bolt springs. They should last about 30000 cycles. You can get more, but the quality of the return could be compromised. Its not a hard and fast rule, but a general guideline for determining if your bolt spring is getting worn out.

When determining which bolt spring you need, you should select one that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to shoot at 280fps, then the gun should start cycling at about 260fps for optimum performance. Most of the time a gold spring will start cycling much lower than that. The red springs are usually in that range depending on barrel setup. Since only grey springs are available now, clipping them is a necessity for most setups to get them in the proper operating range. Try the grey spring first without clipping. Turn the velocity all the way down, air up the gun and start pulling the trigger as you increase the velocity. When the gun starts to cycle, put a ball in the chamber and measure the velocity. If it is too high, then you will need to clip it. I wouldn't clip it if it is only 10 fps below the velocity that you want to operate at. However, most of the time the grey spring will be higher than 300fps. Clip 1/4 of a coil off and try it again. Only clip one end and make sure you put the cut end against the bolt. Keep doing this until the gun starts to cycle at 20fps below the velocity that you want to operate at. The bolt spring will be fully tuned for your setup at this time.

Do not oil the bolt spring or the outside of the bolt. This transfers oil to the balls and barrel and causes velocity fluctuations and inaccuracy. Also, any time you oil your mag, blow the excess oil out by cycling the gun without the barrel on for the same reason.

Check the rest of the level 10 setup as well. Make sure all the shims are removed first. Then use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak. Its the oring that you are adjusting so always use the same white carrier oring each time.

[Loneassassin]

^^Thank you. I have no idea how many cycles have been put on my gold spring. I certainly haven't shot it that many times, but I bought it used (like-new condition though). I played all last year with it, but also played a lot of pump, so it wasn't the only gun I used. The gold spring very well could be up to 30K cycles.

When I bought the gun, it was getting bolt stick, and I went with the largest carrier that wouldn't leak, and that fixed it. About 4-5 cases later, I had to go down a size because it started leaking, then it worked like that for the rest of the year, and for the beginning of this season.

A few days ago, after reading all of these posts and looking through the lvl 10 problem thread, I saw that I should remove the shims from the lvl 10. (I had left them in when I first got the Mag running, because it seemed to work fine with just a carrier change.) When I opened it up, I found 3 shims in there, lol. So now I'm thinking it might work with the next carrier size up, now that I've taken the shims out, because I see that having the shims in there sometimes causes you to need a tighter carrier.

I'll play around with it for the next few days and see what I can do. Unfortunately, the gun didn't come with a "medium" spring, just the gold and the long silver one. I remember trying the silver spring when I got the gun and couldn't get it to cycle at all. But I'll try it again without clipping it before I do anything else.

[Loneassassin]

Update: So I went ahead and switched my carrier to what I think is the next size up, and maybe the biggest one in my kit. (I'm a little confused as to the sizes. I've got one with no markings, another with three dots, another with a groove, and the one I'm using has a groove and three dots - I'm assuming it's the biggest one.)

I aired it up, to about 1600 psi (all I had in my Scuba). Anyway, there are no problems with bolt stick now; I can walk the trigger blazingly fast with no issues, and it seems to be unchuffable. :shooting:

The only problem is, there's a slight leak. After cycling it for awhile, the leak went away, then reappeared, then went away. I think it's right on the verge of leaking/sealing. Which leads me to question whether or not to replace the carrier o-ring with a new one, or go back to the original carrier and just keep it lubed excessively. At what point do you need to replace the carrier o-ring? There were no visible signs of wear, yet I'm sure it must wear down eventually.

[athomas]

Each groove represents a single size, and the three dots represent a half size. Your single groove with 3 dots represents a size 1.5 which is the largest one that you have at this time.

It could be that your oring is not quite symmetrical or has some surface flaws. This would cause it to require a tighter carrier to keep it from leaking. That would also cause your chuffing due to a tight carrier. When using the proper carrier, the surface imperfections cause random leaking. That may not be your problem, but it has appeared with others in the past. With most of those users, the problem stemmed from an inconsistent batch of orings. In those instances, installing a new oring and retuning the level 10 fixed the problem.

[Loneassassin]

Each groove represents a single size, and the three dots represent a half size. Your single groove with 3 dots represents a size 1.5 which is the largest one that you have at this time.

It could be that your oring is not quite symmetrical or has some surface flaws. This would cause it to require a tighter carrier to keep it from leaking. That would also cause your chuffing due to a tight carrier. When using the proper carrier, the surface imperfections cause random leaking. That may not be your problem, but it has appeared with others in the past. With most of those users, the problem stemmed from an inconsistent batch of orings. In those instances, installing a new oring and retuning the level 10 fixed the problem.

Okay, thanks! I will try a new o-ring. The weird thing was that when sliding the carrier over the bolt stem to check the new fit, it seemed much looser and easier to move than with the carrier 1/2 size down; that one was kind of tight. I would have thought there would be less of a change between carriers.

[Newt]

I'm convinced that at least 90% of mag problems can be solved by replacing orings. :cheers:

[Loneassassin]

^^Haha, you're right. I changed the carrier o-ring and *viola* - no leaks, no bolt-stick, and no chuffing. :shooting: The thing is SUPER easy to walk now, literally like an electro. I'm hoping to get a video up later today. Stay tuned! :cheers:

[Loneassassin]

Here's a vid. I chopped one right at the end; you can hear the lvl 10 kick in, but I think the ball didn't fully break until it was in the barrel. There was paint on the end of the bolt though. Probably wouldn't have chopped, but the hopper was getting almost empty. Shoots pretty quick though...bouncing a little, lol. :shooting: :D Enjoy!
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb268/loneassassin66/?action=view&current=P7150020.mp4

[Newt]

It may also have been a loader break. Ball us loaded too hard/fast and fractures but it's in place, lvl 10 doesn't kick in, air forced against ball, ball flies apart, paint is in barrel but not in breach.

I had this happen a lot before I knew not to turn my Reloader B all the way up. You can see high speed videos of it from planet eclipse on YouTube.

[Loneassassin]

^^^I'm pretty sure it was a chop though, probably due to getting down to the last few balls in the loader. The Prophecy is very gentle on paint. Plus, there was paint on the end of the bolt, and I heard the lvl 10 kick in.