Need beta testers for efficiency inserts

[hill160881]

Looks like these will cost $12 to $15, shipped for the beta run with the requirement of feedback. Meaning the buyer needs to have purchased the red power tube oring and are prepared to pay attention to there air to ball consumption pretty closely as they play. Then report back those numbers and any tuning issues they had.

I need feedback so I cam make any needed changes before I have a bunch of these made.

These are the prototypes

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1411.jpg

There are 5 spots for the Classic and 5 for the X-valve. So post if you want to pick one up and help with the testing process. If any changes are needed the people who get a beta version will get the improved version free of charge.

Classic Valve(I will do a video but you may need to have the power tube removed by a pro on this valve)
1. chadders(MCB)
2.leloup
3. redlaser666
5.
5.


X-valve (I will do a video on how to remove this valve's power tube.)
1. chadders(MCB)
2.sjrtk
3.leloup
4.stevewar
5.bumbabeef


Locations for the red power tube oring and so you know what it looks like. Once removed you can open and close the power tube area many times without damaging the oring, but the first time destroys it usually.

Xvalve
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1373.jpg

Classic
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1393.jpg


Here is how to getting into the shot chamber on a classic valve. Try at your own risk

There is the Lathe method and the drill press method

The drill press method(I think Loguzzzzzz did a thread on this once)
Get it clamped firmly into the jaws
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1541.jpg
Get it turning and use a hacksaw blade and cut about a 1/16" deep. (See the lathe pics for a better depth and location pic) It should unscrew with little effort once you cut deep enough. It is up to you what you crank on the two with to loosen it, but I dont suggest pliers unless you have many layers of Etape on it.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1542.jpg


The lathe method.
Here is where you cut. 1.6mm back from the face.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1533.jpg
Cut until it comes apart with some but not much force, trying it regularly so you dont cut to deep.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1535.jpg
And done.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1536.jpg

[leloup]

If I could get my classic taken apart, I'd do that, but I am curious on the x. I won't be able to play again for another month, so how long are you willing to wait for data? Also, would there be a discount on any final product you go with?

[hill160881]

Like I say in the OP, if any changes are made to the inserts the new ones will be free to the ones doing the beta testing.

No hurries on anything and I wont have the inserts for another week. I will put you down for an X.

[bbotts77]

I would volunteer, but I'm not sure when I'll get to play.

[stevewar]

can you explain the theory behind these mods?

[hill160881]

The reason the mag is so inefficient is to reduce pneumatic force on the ball. (I think)

By reducing the volume in the shot chamber you need more pressure to do the same amount of work. A higher pressure lower volume seems to just be more efficient in general due to the restrictive design of the power tube. So I was left with two options to get better #, Option one is to make a power tube with a larger opening and then a bolt to fit it. Or option two, volume reduction. Option two was way easier and affordable.

So the inserts take up volume making me turn up the pressure. This makes the blast of air that propels the ball more intense but with todays paint it has not caused ball braking.

[sjrtk]

I am willing to give this a shot for the X valve. Sign me up.

[Justus]

Hill, you should package deal this thing with a red powertube o-ring. Increase the price a bit if necessary. But I think you'd have more takers for beta testing and on the final run if you send the o-ring with the mod.

[hill160881]

Hill, you should package deal this thing with a red powertube o-ring. Increase the price a bit if necessary. But I think you'd have more takers for beta testing and on the final run if you send the o-ring with the mod.

I am trying to do this but finding them is not easy.

[stevewar]

The reason the mag is so inefficient is to reduce pneumatic force on the ball. (I think)

By reducing the volume in the shot chamber you need more pressure to do the same amount of work. A higher pressure lower volume seems to just be more efficient in general due to the restrictive design of the power tube. So I was left with two options to get better #, Option one is to make a power tube with a larger opening and then a bolt to fit it. Or option two, volume reduction. Option two was way easier and affordable.

So the inserts take up volume making me turn up the pressure. This makes the blast of air that propels the ball more intense but with todays paint it has not caused ball braking.

I volunteer with my xvalve.

[leloup]

I'll try my hand at taking apart my classic, so put me down for one of each.

[bumbabeef]

Hill put me down for the x-valve

[GEE TEE]

What are the difficulties with stripping the classic - is the powertube loctited in place?

[DevilMan]

The classic valves are "welded" from what I understand. You have to cut the weld very carefully and then they unscrew.

EARLY ones were not welded.

DM

[Justus]

Where exactly would you get a red powertube o-ring? Tunaman? AGD direct?

[hill160881]

Yes but I have not herd back from tuna yet. Otherwise I will get some aftermarket.

[Storminnorman]

Last time I tried to find that oring it was impossible. It seems they were not a standard size.

[hill160881]

I have done several classic valves and have not damaged the oring yet. So those testing the classic will most likely not need it.

There is an update in the first poast on how to get into a classic valve's shot chamber.


Here is the source to buy the shot chamber oring. Mcmaster-car only sells them in packs of 100
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_36&products_id=1798

[redlaser666]

I would be willing to volunteer a clasic.

[GEE TEE]

Thanks for the update on the classic

I think it's well beyond what I can manage DIY without trashing a valve :cry:

So I'll bow out, pull up a comfee chair and watch the thread with interest

[hill160881]

Here is how to get into the X-valve. I used the tools that most people will have available. Take your time and go slow.

Here are the tools minus a bench vise.
Adjustable pliers, a strip of plether and a vice
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1553.jpg

Clamp like this. Clamp it snug but dont over do it. Also use E-tape on the area the pliers will bite.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1547.jpg
Now here is the hard part. Get a firm grip and slowley unscrew it making sure the pliers dont slip. Take your time and redo the tape if you are concerned about scratching the SS.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1549.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1548.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1551.jpg

If you are lucky you will not destroy the red oring. Once you are done you need to clean the thread lock off both threaded areas and you will not need tools to get into it again. :shooting:
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/100_1552.jpg

[TOTShadowCompany]

***Puts another bag of popcorn in the microwave...

[sbpyro]

It seems a strap wrench would work very well.

[hill160881]

I tried several strap wrenches and they did not have enough torque.

[Justus]

So you don't have to apply heat to get the powertube off the X-valve? I thought that was a requirement, and that's why the red o-ring was trashed every time?

[my automag]

I had no problems with using strap wrenches, but I also "BOILED THE X-VALVE" first. :)

I boiled the water, then put the X-Valve in for 3 - 5 minutes, (NO REGULATOR attached and other remaining internals emptied out also, just in case).

If you clamp one end of the valve into a vise carefully, (NOT the power tube end) it makes it allot easier to put a good torque on it with one strap wrench.

You can also leave the air fitting attached, it can aid a better grip with less clamping force applied to the valve if you set it up right in a vise .

You can also wrap a couple elastic bands around it to get an even stronger grip with the strap wrench.

There was NO DAMAGE to the red o-ring at all, and NOT A SINGLE dent or scratch on the metal valve parts.

After that make sure to pick and clean off really good the old locktite that is on there from factory, before you re-assemble the two parts back together. :cheers:

[hill160881]

Thanks for another way to get into the valve.

Also the oring I linked to earlier is the right one, i got 20 so the beta inserts will come with an oring :D

[Pneumagger]

OK... after crying a bit for some of those valves here is the best way to take them apart so there are NO marks.

Xvalve: Use a lathe with a 63/64" collet chuck. The collet chuck grips the entire OD of the powertube base leaving NO galling or gouging that wrench may leave. Lock the head of the lathe and just tist the valve body with your hand... it will unscrew smoothly using nothing but hand pressure and the factory oring will be just fine.

Classic: Use a 1/2" collet to grip th powertube. Once again, no gouging or galling. Using a Kenametal "Thinbit" or similar parting tool (thinbits can be .030" in width or smaller) just clean the weld out of the weld groove. You can do this so that you only remove weld and no actual valve material. Then just unscrew the powerube like normal.

Now what I want to know is where to buy more xvalve powertube tip orings? I think they're M22x1 or M22.5x1 silicone orings. Both my xfactory valve orings were intact and functional after removing and reinstalling them several times... unfortunately I just plain lost one of them. :tard:

I think these are two possible replacements, although they are Buna-N... which shouldn't make a difference in immediate operation.
I can't find red silicon orings that match though.
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_36&products_id=1798
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_36&products_id=1799

[hill160881]

I just got 20 and tested them and they are the right size :D So you found the right ones.
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_36&products_id=1798

The classic valve I broke into was messed up to start with. It had plier marks all over it to begin with. That is a much better way(your way) to remove the power tube though, but i tried to demonstrate it with the tools everyone would have or have access to.

[Pneumagger]

I just got 20 and tested them and they are the right size :D So you found the right ones.
http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_36&products_id=1798

The classic valve I broke into was messed up to start with. It had plier marks all over it to begin with. That is a much better way(your way) to remove the power tube though, but i tried to demonstrate it with the tools everyone would have or have access to.

What, everyone doesn't have access to precision lathes with collet heads?

Next I'll bet you're going to say thy don't have access to hard-vacuum electron beam welders or CNC TIG welders to properly reassemble their Classic valves! Absurd!!

[leloup]

what is the eta, hill?

[hill160881]

Sorry been busy with another non paintball related project.

I am just waiting on the inserts from y0da.

[y0da900]

Sorry been busy with another non paintball related project.

I am just waiting on the inserts from y0da.


On their way finally. Sorry for the delays everybody.

[hill160881]

Thanks y0da900 :hail:

Arrived today. I will get it all together and send out PMs soon. Looks like the total will be $10ea shipped with a replacement red power tube oring.
:cheers:

[hill160881]

Here are the finished inserts. The one with the oring is the one for the classic.
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/DSC00475.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/DSC00476.jpg
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae195/hill160881/Temp/Projects/DSC00477.jpg

[Justus]

You have the testers for the X-valve covered, right? If not, count me in and let me know.

And if so, just keep us informed as to the results, reviews, and timetable for release. ;)

[hill160881]

I have 10 of each so there some extras.


I will try to get this all put together tomorrow night.

[Jiker]

Have there been any results reported from this yet?

[hill160881]

To be honest I have been totally warped up and will get to these this weekend. So I will put together a sales thread in the BST section since I got more than signed up as possible testers.

Super sorry for the delays but life happens.

[stevewar]

I'm super excited to test this out!

[sjrtk]

life happens.


Yes it does no big deal just can't wait to get a hold of this to test

[hill160881]

A thread is up in the misc section of the BST now :dance:

[hill160881]

Here it is :D

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2778130#post2778130

[Venom]

[QUOTE=Pneumagger]Using a Kenametal "Thinbit" or similar parting tool (thinbits can be .030" in width or smaller) just clean the weld out of the weld groove.QUOTE]

I might be wrong, but Kaiser makes ThinBits... http://www.kaisertool.com/

I don't think Kennametal has a comparable product.

[GEE TEE]

Hi Hills,

Ive just picked up an RT Pro valve and which needed stripping to swap a few seals. The front tube unscrewed from it when i tried to remove the power tube tip. Must have only been finger tight. Not sure which insert would work with this valve but i'm happy to give one a try if there's any spare. The red o-ring wasn't damaged so it should re-seal ok

[tasker89]

Hey Gang!

I haven't posted here in like...forever...but this is one thread I just had to drop in on. The inserts that you are doing were done once before and I had a hand in it. Many moons ago I played early NPPL ball with SWARM (Illinois based team and one of AGD's only factory sponsored teams...SOB's and Jax Warriors being the other two).

Early on when HPA was in its infancy (shortly after John Dale left AGD), all that was readily available were 68cui/3K tanks. A gun running well would struggle to hit 800 shots. Like most of my teammates the ideal number was 1000 shots (what I could clear on vertically mounted 20oz) and so we started looking at ways to go back towards a LVL5 type valve.

Eventually shims and inserts evolved into an aftermarket mod that was sold through Fox River Games. With AGD's approval we actually went so far as to have a run of LVL7 valves built with smaller air chambers. The guns were marketed as HyperMags (get it? HI PER...like high pressure Mag. :D clever I know) and we sold through that one run of guns before the whole thing fell flat.

We were swimming against the current (LP was becoming all the rage...complete with the SP pseudo-science about ball deformation and such) and although we had a mod that averaged about a 25% increase...players didn't want it.

The pros:
- Improved recharge time.
- Less drop off in rapid fire strings.
- Increased shots per tank.

The cons:
- Sear/bolt wear.
- Harder on paint.
- Before the advent of improvements (ULT) the higher pressure operation resulted in a noticeably heavier (but snappier) trigger pull.

If you ever come across a valve with a laser-engraved Fox and HyperMag text on it...snatch it up. Mag history my friends...albeit a tiny part.

Peace!
Adam

[fierymartel]

post from MCB

Here is a blueprint for an Level 7 Automag powertube and dump chamber.The power tubes are threaded 7/8" x 32 threads per inch, the older power tubes were locktited the newer ones are laser welded to keep them from unscrewing.HyperMag dump chambers were sleeved down from .843" ID to .625" ID.
Most Hypermags were older standard Automags that were converted by Fox Paintball in the early 90's, so they are unmarked on the outside of the valve.

http://www.paintballcity.org/images/Smiley/magpowertube.jpg

[hill160881]

Very interesting info and consistent with what I have found through trial and error. very cool.

I always wanted to make a power tube that screwed into an old valve and had a larger diameter air passage. There is still an 1/8" to spare in the L7 bolt. That would allow for a lower pressure operation, like people have wanted for a while.

It may be that with todays paint choices the higher pressure wont be such an issue. Also I dont think people were doing the pump thing as much. Or the pistols.

[GEE TEE]

I'm going to have a go at making an insert for my RT Pro valve here in the UK

[hill160881]

The insert for the X/retro-valve is 7/8" long and 3/4" diameter ruff. Approx 3/16" wall thickness with two 1/8" holes to prevent gasses from being trapped. For more exact specs PM me.

Make it out of delrin or PVC. It is pretty easy with a dremal and some patients. But what I do with a dremal others usually think was done with a machine :p . So it may be harder that I think.

I have plenty of pics to use as reference in my threads.

If you need and advice let me know.
:cheers:

[redlaser666]

Here is my first report on this mod.
First the test setup:
Old Minimag valve, opened by the drill and hacksaw method (importat later on)
12g CCI bucket changer on an ASA attached directly to the valve by a 2" nipple
SS body with twistlock Minimag barrel stock, unported, measured as 0.693 bore

The 12g were Brass Eagle brand. They are very inconsistent, so I weighted and empty and then weighted all the other ones. I found they varied by almost 1.5 grams between the highest and lowest.
I picked to use for the test 2 that were the same weight. I used the other ones to set the velocity.

Paint was Draxxus Rec Sport (measured around 0.683 on the widest points 0.676 on the thinner parts)
Test performed in my basement with a room temperature of about 62deg farenheit (not CO2 optimal but still workable.)

Notes:
As i mentioned before, the hacksaw method of opening the vlave works, but its not very efective. I managed to damage the original o-ring, and the hacksaw blade left a 0.040" gap between the powertube and body of the valve. This meant my other o-ring would not seal unless i cranked the PT all the way in. The insert i received was 0.905" long and it would not allow me to screw the PT in enought to seal, so I had to file it down to about 0.860"

Results:
Unmodified vlave (after I had opened it and re attached the PT with the new oring)
31 shots total varying from 209 FPS to 324FPS (really inconsistent, crappy paint? old reg seat?)
average for all the shots 251fps

Modified valve (had to crank the rear adjuster 1.5 turns to get around the same velocity)
Tried it twice to check if ther was a fluke CO2 powerlet. results are from the second time
13 shots (both times) that went from 187fps to 333fps (again inconsistent)
average = 253fps
There was more CO2 remaining in the powerlet after the gun stoped firing, but it seems it didnt have enough pressure for the bolt to go forward.

I can post the detailed chono readings if anyone care to look at them. Also ROF was shoot, write and shoot again (about 5-7 seconds between shots ??)

Conclusion:
This mod is not 12g friendly. The low temperature in my basement probably didnt help, but since the mod required more pressure, the 12g couldnt supply it.

I will try with a 13/3000 ninja tank next to see how running this on HPA may improve the shot count.

[hill160881]

Thanks for the info. Keep the testing going. Try to get a more consistent corno reading before the next test if you can.

The average rounds per 12g at 270 fps I have been told is around 15 shots. I actually developed this mod copying ones already done on 12g C02 mags. They reported almost 60% gains but no one tried it on an electro to see if it would still keep up. Although I have not tested it on a C02 mag yet. It may need to be bigger for the 12g mags.

[GEE TEE]

Would the increase in pressure needed by smaller dump chamber affect the way Level10 systems function on X valves, or LvL 10 modified classics/RT's? I'm curious because I'm going to install a Lvl 10 kit on the RT Pro valve I was planning to use an insert with. I'm guessing the anti chop would need re-tuning to work properly.

[redlaser666]

Thanks for the info. Keep the testing going. Try to get a more consistent corno reading before the next test if you can.

The average rounds per 12g at 270 fps I have been told is around 15 shots. I actually developed this mod copying ones already done on 12g C02 mags. They reported almost 60% gains but no one tried it on an electro to see if it would still keep up. Although I have not tested it on a C02 mag yet. It may need to be bigger for the 12g mags.

Im going to do a full rebuild of the valve and move the 12g changer a bit farther away from the valve to see if it helps.

[hill160881]

Would the increase in pressure needed by smaller dump chamber affect the way Level10 systems function on X valves, or LvL 10 modified classics/RT's? I'm curious because I'm going to install a Lvl 10 kit on the RT Pro valve I was planning to use an insert with. I'm guessing the anti chop would need re-tuning to work properly.
You just need a spring 1/2" longer than the bolt face. Then just tune it like normal.

[hill160881]

Im going to do a full rebuild of the valve and move the 12g changer a bit farther away from the valve to see if it helps.
It is best to make sure that the valve is in proper working order before doing these tests. I have had some wired test results my self due to a valve issue.

[GEE TEE]

Thanks for the info

[Ando]

Would the increase in pressure needed by smaller dump chamber affect the way Level10 systems function on X valves, or LvL 10 modified classics/RT's? I'm curious because I'm going to install a Lvl 10 kit on the RT Pro valve I was planning to use an insert with. I'm guessing the anti chop would need re-tuning to work properly.

A longer spring would be needed to keep your bolt at the same hitting force on your paint if the lvl 10 trips. The longer spring will counter react the increased pressure but in doing so would also need an extra bump in velocity to allow the marker to fire.

In my experience with devolumizing the chamber. The more mass you add to the chamber the more velocity is needed to get the marker shooting at your target fps. One thing you need to take in consideration is the Reg Piston. It's only going to allow you to go so far before it starts venting. You need to find a comfortable medium between the 2.

[skyless]

Here is my first report on this mod.
First the test setup:
Old Minimag valve, opened by the drill and hacksaw method (importat later on)
12g CCI bucket changer on an ASA attached directly to the valve by a 2" nipple
SS body with twistlock Minimag barrel stock, unported, measured as 0.693 bore

The 12g were Brass Eagle brand. They are very inconsistent, so I weighted and empty and then weighted all the other ones. I found they varied by almost 1.5 grams between the highest and lowest.
I picked to use for the test 2 that were the same weight. I used the other ones to set the velocity.

Paint was Draxxus Rec Sport (measured around 0.683 on the widest points 0.676 on the thinner parts)
Test performed in my basement with a room temperature of about 62deg farenheit (not CO2 optimal but still workable.)

Notes:
As i mentioned before, the hacksaw method of opening the vlave works, but its not very efective. I managed to damage the original o-ring, and the hacksaw blade left a 0.040" gap between the powertube and body of the valve. This meant my other o-ring would not seal unless i cranked the PT all the way in. The insert i received was 0.905" long and it would not allow me to screw the PT in enought to seal, so I had to file it down to about 0.860"

Results:
Unmodified vlave (after I had opened it and re attached the PT with the new oring)
31 shots total varying from 209 FPS to 324FPS (really inconsistent, crappy paint? old reg seat?)
average for all the shots 251fps

Modified valve (had to crank the rear adjuster 1.5 turns to get around the same velocity)
Tried it twice to check if ther was a fluke CO2 powerlet. results are from the second time
13 shots (both times) that went from 187fps to 333fps (again inconsistent)
average = 253fps
There was more CO2 remaining in the powerlet after the gun stoped firing, but it seems it didnt have enough pressure for the bolt to go forward.

I can post the detailed chono readings if anyone care to look at them. Also ROF was shoot, write and shoot again (about 5-7 seconds between shots ??)

Conclusion:
This mod is not 12g friendly. The low temperature in my basement probably didnt help, but since the mod required more pressure, the 12g couldnt supply it.

I will try with a 13/3000 ninja tank next to see how running this on HPA may improve the shot count.
I would like to give my experience on this type of setup. I have been working on getting the most out of 12grams with my mag, I have 2 different devolumized mags with plastic washer inserts. I found that running 12gs directly into the valve had reduced shots and horrid consistency. I kept trying to make the setup as compact as possible and finally reverted back to using a Micro CA II because it gave the best results and was easy/fun to use. I would get maybe 12-15 running 12gs directly into the valve and the best I got was 25-28 using the micro ca mounted under grip with braided airhose filled with weedwacker line to reduce the ID. I would really like to see the effects of using a palmer reg in various setups to see what the increase in cosistancy/efficency would be. I have been out of the AO scene for a while due to school but ill be back at it trying to break the 30 ball mark with my newly pumped mag. (same mag I hit 28 balls out of a 12g but its now pumped so im hoping with finetuning Ill get that 30) I hope this helps and feel free to pm me with any questions reguarding setup. Also If I used too many plastic washers I was not able to get 280fps without leaking out the reg. Since making my mag pump I have not even come close to breaking the 25 ball mark, but ive not had the time to put the effort in. I think giving the 12gs a bit of room to expand/equalize really helps with efficiency/cosistency, as well as devolumizing the valve.
Hope this is helpfull.

[hill160881]

Thanks much for the advice as you are one of the ones who I spoke with regarding the efficiency increases during the trial and error phase. Thanks again for all your input.
:cheers:

[gommie404]

hi all gommie404 here from the uk,,, i have been reading this item with interest,,
as a lot of you know im a keen inventor and marker maker,,

but im trying to work out what you are doing here,,, as far as i can see,,what you are trying to do is drop the volume of air by fitting a spacer in side the dump chamber,,

em,, boyles law,, is worth a read,, what ever volume you remove,,will be taken up by pressure,,

and your going to increase the bolts forward speed,, not good,,

but the amount of air your going to use will be the same,, all your be doing is filling a smaller space with the same amount of air but at a higher pressure,,

< note all based on no ajaustments being made to rear reg >


now talking about a higher pressure,, if your new chamber size is to small ,,
your be making more preesure than you have at the reg piston at the rear,, this will result in air feed back and piston bounce,,


so you will suffer more shoot down not less,,, come have a chat,,

[hill160881]

All theories aside, it works. Doing the work at a higher pressure with a faster cycle is more efficient than a lower pressure with a slower cycle, to a point. This is just how it works with a mag. As it turns out AGD got the same results I did with devolumizing only did not use the insert angle and produced another valve. Some valves were made with a smaller shot chamber, but who would buy another valve to get better efficiency?

[Justus]

... but who would buy another valve to get better efficiency?

What? There are tons of people who have bought other complete markers to get better efficiency. If AGD released a new version of the X-Valve that was efficient enough to get a case off a 68/45 I think there would be tons people that would jump at that. Hence, the interest in these devolumizers. ;)

[mogli]

gimme sometime over break I'm looking to design a new power tube and bolt combo to greater reduce flow resistance by a increase the power tube's diameter. Didnt spend 8yrs in college and the past two years modeling blood flow through a ventricle assist device to not apply things learned to something I care about, sorry i do care about helping ppl with heart disease, just hate being a puppet for universities and project sponsors with no common sense, sorry back to my thesis for me..... mmm beer

[cougar20th]

FYI: These inserts will not fit a lvl 5 valve. Its been to long to remember exactly why it didnt fit but I can always check. Gonna need to find myself another way to devolumize the valve.

[splat15k]

hi all gommie404 here from the uk,,, i have been reading this item with interest,,
as a lot of you know im a keen inventor and marker maker,,

but im trying to work out what you are doing here,,, as far as i can see,,what you are trying to do is drop the volume of air by fitting a spacer in side the dump chamber,,

em,, boyles law,, is worth a read,, what ever volume you remove,,will be taken up by pressure,,

and your going to increase the bolts forward speed,, not good,,

but the amount of air your going to use will be the same,, all your be doing is filling a smaller space with the same amount of air but at a higher pressure,,

< note all based on no ajaustments being made to rear reg >


now talking about a higher pressure,, if your new chamber size is to small ,,
your be making more preesure than you have at the reg piston at the rear,, this will result in air feed back and piston bounce,,


so you will suffer more shoot down not less,,, come have a chat,,


Boyle's law does not apply here since we're not dealing with a closed system. Boyle's law would only apply if we sealed off all ports in and out of the dump chamber and then we reduced the volume without ever breaking the seal.

[mogli]

i agree i thought it only was applicable to static systems, here we are mad transient

[y0da900]

Not only transient, but there is a huge assumption made that the system reacts linearly to changes in pressure. If that were the case, then devolumizing the dump chamber and smoothing the transitional entrance to the flow path wouldn't do anything. Thankfully, that's not the case, and the energy consumption of the system (and other similar valve trains) drops at the higher pressures resulting in the ability to decrease the net energy stored in the chamber.

[mogli]

The stock powertube has a minimal ID of .283" right behind the oring. I want to try to increase that to about .375 which is just over 75% gain in orifice area. The only thing that is difficult is coming up with a bolt design I can fabricate easily.

[y0da900]

It's an odd balance making the ID of the powertube larger. To make that larger, you need to increase the Id of the bolt to maintain the same cross sectional area through that as before, or it can be futile.

Two piece bolt with an outer portion having the main length of the bolt and the spring lip having an internal thread to attach the bolt face and core. Relatively simple to make with a lathe.

[mogli]

Ya I was thinking the same but wanted to look into one piece options also. It would just require a special style of boring bar/insert combo.

[captian pinky]

the lvl 10 bolts are 2 pieces and the inside piece is press fitted

[mogli]

after further inspection i found the lvl 7 are press fit two piece also

[gommie404]

em this is a very interesting thread,, :)

so what sort of shot savings have you or the beta testers found so far,,,

im gonna be rebuilding my emag soon,, but back into a mech set up,,with a x vavle,,

im looking to make up a simple marker for over seas travel,,

but with the xvalve ,, im all ways bumping into the,,needs a certain pressure to work,,

and when i play over the pond i have to leave my big bottles at home,, and then end up loaning a small bottle,,

which as we know is a pain,, with lv 10 and a x vavle

[mogli]

haven't designed anything yet but from early calc i can get a 60% increase of Cross sectional area of the power tube and increase the main flow path of the bolt by 18% now looking to increase the flow area of the bolt face and incorporate an laminar flow element style face.

now the next debate is whether to make the prototype from SS or alum, alum would be easier but i dont like thread alum into SS as I'm gonna be working on the classic valve.