Selling out...

[Pudgey51]

Well, I'm on baby duty this morning, so that means one thing....get the baby to nap and check out my favorite forum :D

As avid paintballers here, we all have a certain connection to our mags. they are dependable, durable, and most importantly, devastatingly awesome. So its natural that when it comes to spending our money were gonna go with the best. Many of us here apply the same principle to all of our gear...but my question dives deeper, to the point where u would really have to think things through...when is an offer too good to pass up?

My question comes from another members post regarding loaders. The member didnt wanna buy a certain type of loader because the owner of the company that made said loader once wiped during a game he played against him in. Its a valid reason for not purchasing the product. if u cannot trust the owner during a game how can u trust the product he makes, but more importantly, by buying the equipment made by the man of unfavorable character u are supporting that man. As AO members we all remember SP so i dont need to say more....

But if it came to it, would u be able to push questionable morals aside for a good deal? If sp were around and u felt personally wronged by all their business practices in the past, but they offered u a full ride to play, would u accept? would u make other, excessive demands to strike a deal? or would u rather pay ur own way than represent them?

I've been around the forum awhile, and know that many here arent that concerned with going pro, or being famous, they just love to play, which is fine. but if someone else was gonna pay for u to play for an extended amount of time, could u pass it up? think of how much u spend in a year on paintball supplies...every single cent, covered. special even across country? ur airfare is paid. entry to every event, paid....would it be enough? or would u demand more even tho they are the only ones offering it to u?

Im very interested in seeing the responses...so lets get to it!

[robander3]

Well I'm at work and have finished all my engineering drawings for the week, I love being an intern :D

Hmmm, The companies I don't like so much are SP, although I did buy a twistlock freak back from them and believe it or not I'm not a huge fan of planet eclipse (not the company itself, cuz IMO they're a really great company and help the sport out alot and bring lot of great new technology to the sport, its more of the lil punks who buy their guns and can't shoot the near side of a barn and have it on uncapped ramping, so I guess I just don't like people who miss-use Ego's but I like planet eclipse... :confused: )

But lets say SP offered me an opportunity to go play pro ball, I use to play speedball when I was younger and was on a team and loved it, alot. And i was good too, now most of the fields around me are scenario type places so i don't get to play speedball much, so like wise i miss playing it. So in my case its kind of a lose-lose situation in a way. I get to do the type of game I love but use a shocker or impulse, or I can keep my dignity and use my emag but not play speedball (so i guess its not a huge lose after all)... So I'm not sure, if I could use my gun and they provide everything else but the gun I'd do it. But I would (not to sound high and mighty) most likely not accept it and just keep were I am. Plus my current field is a BYOP field and is $25 bucks for the weekend (yes $25 for both saturday and sunday play, not just one day) and all the air I want. All I need to do is buy paint from a local-ish pro shop.

So all in all I wouldn't take the opportunity to play under SP (my chosen company IMO). :ninja:

[kcombs9]

My self, I love playing and might have to stop cause of the cost, I would say yes so I could keep playing.

But if SP was looking to sign me on I would assume they think I'm a good player and other teams/dealers would know that too so I would hit up other people to sign me on.

[MedicDVG]

If you scratch the surface on ANY large market paintball company, I am sure the dirt under your fingernails would be less then pleasant. "Corporate ethics" is one of the greatest oxymorons out there. There are those that don't like the practices of SP, KEE, Bob Long, Bud Orr, Rougefactor, or even the douche-bag field owner jacking his customers for $130/case of field paint only. All in all the business climate is what it is, and some will love you, some will hate you, and some will sue you. Good bad or indifferent, that is what it is.

I don't know that having a CEO that wiped a hit will keep me from buying a product from a company. Basically show me a tournament player that HASN'T wiped or cheated somehow. That is more the institutional norm then not these days. But show me a company that steals designs, squashes creativity, sells out their employees, and then we may have something to talk about. Unfortunately, I would venture that those things could be identified again at just about every level of paintball equipment design and manufacture.

[Newt]

Good point, Medic. Fans of so called "business ethics" end up having neither business nor ethics.

The first thing to do is always to take the problem to the man. When I feel I've been snubbed or treated with low character, you're going to hear about it. Chances are high that I've misinterpreted something or just didn't have the full story, so it's only right to give the other guy a chance to give his side of the story. If he throws it back or gives me flack, that's fine. Better to end the relationship now before we get into a real nightmare.

Talk is cheap. Need money to buy whiskey.

[vim]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.

[bound for glory]

if it was'nt for my son, i'd have been out long ago. played my first game in march of 1985 at skirmish in pa.(which i now live next to). if not for my boys love of the game, i'd be done. waaaay too many jackasses out there these days. i'm trying to get him interested in airsoft, but tbh, i would think the cheating and "jackassery" are much the same there as well...

[Loguzzzzzz]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.
Actually I find the mods on AO to be far more fair then the ones on MCB. If you are not one of Carter's clan your threads will get whacked for silly reasons while some of his group are allowed laitude.

Opinons are like a-holes, everyone has one and they usually stink! That being said as adults we can just agree to disagree and move.

As a person that does associate with BigEvil I believe that you are a little off base with your statements but then that is just my opninion and I have already stated what I think about opinions, I am sure mine only matters to me.

I have to agree that one time whiping, although cheating, would not keep me from his sponsorship. It would have to be the level of Smart Parts to keep me from that. They have in many cases done irrepairable damage to the paintball industry. Smart Parts caused good companies such as AGD to stop producing products by demanding license fees. I am sure there are others that stopped production as well. There is no denying that Smart Parts produced some great products but their acrtions have robbed the industry of other manufacturers good products. That is just a shame.

[cockerpunk]

just buy a rotor ... seriously

[Mongoose]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.

I have a bunch of the Magnus Frames........They are amazing :headbang:

[maniacmechanic]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.

How , because of 1 man & 1 product , can you condem a whole forum population ??

[StygShore]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.


Mildly offended by your statement regarding thos that associate with Big E and confused why Magnus products would be added to that "List" Most of the aftermarket stuff designed by 3rd party are simply adaptations of parts from another marker ( CCM Frame, Angel frame, 15 degree WGP adapters snatch grips etc ) If you never bought from someone who barrowed from another design, you wouldn't ever buy aftermarket mag parts.

As far as the work of the mods... if people online would get a little thicker skin and not be so butt hurt that someone has a different opinion or picks on them for their opinion the mods wouldnt have to work so damned hard in the first place.

To be somewhat on topic - As far as SP - they did their best to turn paintball into a business and not fun anymore :P - I have issues with the way they ran their business practices and what they have done after filing bankruptcy ( GoG mostly ) I dont really have an issue with any other vendors


Styg

[Ando]

He has no clue what he's even talking about. The Magnus line was a Tuna project. Keep to your word and browsing your way back to MCB douche bag.


But I digress. Back in my prime, I would have never sold out to the like of SP. I have no issues with any of the other manufactures


just buy a rotor ... seriously
Bazing :rofl:

[Dirge]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.

How would know? You go there even less.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g229/stevecos/VIMScreenshot2011-08-17at54729PM.png


Back to topic:

As my current financial state is good, I can say that I would stay away from companies with questionable ethics.

Should I hit hard times and still want to play, accepting a deal for a chunk of my soul may be contemplated. Would have to be a really good deal though............. :D

[Pudgey51]

ok guys lets bring it back on topic....


this isnt flame whoever has wronged u...and while most are defending some individuals i brought this here to AO because u guys are known to be the more mature ones, now show it....dont bring it down to pbn status...

[behemoth]

Well put MEDIC. You can add BigEvil and his MAGNUS products and those who associate with him to that list. I mostly avoid Automags.org and spend most of my forum browsing time over at MCB to avoid them. The owner of MCB fixes any issues over there much better than the mods do here.

Did you try crying about it? I heard that helps.

[MAGpie]

IE: Would you sell your soul to the Devil... Sorry, I don't touch ANYTHIN SP/GOG. Not barrel socks, not grips, not barrels, not even their money.
For example.

So, no.

For me, principals are very important. It is when people start giving them up, that they start losing sight of what is important to them.

But keep in mind that I am not an unforgiving ass either. People make mistakes. If they own up, if they make it clear that they regret their wrongs, then I am not beyond the point of giving them a second chance.
Please just don't ask me to give anyone a 3rd chance.

[sjrtk]

As far as taking a sponsor ship from SP, I would have to say no. Mainly due to there ethics, I don't take credit for what i haven't done and don't expect to take a hit for what some one else screws up. I really hate what they did to the industry and i can't/wouldn't support them even if they were willing to pay me to play. I would leave the game first.

As far as the DYE issue with the wipe as mentioned befor. Hey every one has a Jackass moment, even in rec ball there is cheating. It happened, its over, don't take it personal because the guy was a dick. For buying a rotor, well i'll pass unless I find one at a VERY good deal. I just prefer the Halo. So it really ins't a ethics issue for this case. Just a preference issue.

[Tropical Life]

lol This is such a basic and easy sports response: How many athletes are currently playing for teams they dont like? do they cry about it no?Actually hyped they got picked up.Take the money and make a name for yourself and get paid doing it. When your contract is over you move on to a better sponsor. Again this is more for the Pro player wanting to move up, as a paintball consumer/rec-player you can buy what you like or dont like cause personal opions and are totally entitled to it.

Pro sports business 101

[athomas]

Each person has reasons that they buy or don't buy products. If it stems from an association because of something you witnessed and didn't like then so be it. That is as good a reason as any to avoid a product. You should always be comfortable with your choice. I have done the same thing in the past and will probably do so again in the future. We all form opinions based on some perception. Whether it is real or not doesn't matter. It is our perception and the feeling we get because of it. Depending on the level of infraction or perception of the offending company or product, a larger price discount could persuade most people to overlook the problem. There is nothing wrong with that. That is essentially the same as forcing a company to pay $ for their mistakes. Its a cost associated with a wrong doing even if it is from a used source and not directly from the offending company. Any used product that is heavily discounted affects the new value as well because of the reduced "trade-in" value.

You just have to be aware of the line where the discount no longer offsets the infraction. You always have to be comfortable with your association or it is not worth it.

[spece108]

As for the dye issue, the same guy took time to individually help out and hook up our little team from alaska twice while he ran the pan-am. Once with hotel theft issues and another time with needed products. Plus he ran that series with his wife, working with family is cool in my book.

If anyone remembers there was a video of a gog shot on bob long that was removed crazy fast a number of years ago. All in the experience I guess.

[Dawg047]

Curse you BEO and Tuna with his Magnus products, how dare you all provide great information and sweet high quality products to further the Automag and keep its legacy going? You guys are no better than those darn dirty apes.

But seriously, I personally don't care who makes the product as long as I see it is quality, it is designed well and it will meet my expectations. Of course when business ethics effect opinions or product quality, I think that is when you have a problem. A while ago when Craig Palmer and Bud Orr had there tiff about pneumatic operations of there markers, I stayed away from WGP for a while because I thought Orr was in the wrong but it didn't stray away from the fact the Autococker was still a great marker but I do agree, it effected my decision making. That's why I shoot Mags, because Tom's ethics IMHO have always been provide first class quality, design and technology first, and deal with any business tiffs outside everything else.

[Sniper Steve]

Good topic, I usually don't post in general discussion topics but I like this one. I too have thought a lot about this, I am not a SP fan and I usually wont play with SP stuff but I do buy and sell used SP stuff from time to time because I do know that other people like it and that doesn't bother me. But I do use the Freak inserts for my Deadlywinds barrel and in my opinion one of the best I have shot(although on a side note I recently shot a Hammerhead barrel system and I loved it).

Sometimes a product can be great from a not so great company or the price might be too good to pass on for a product. I don't think that is compromising one's beliefs, I think that is making a sound decision and laying pride aside. Another good example of this is Walmart, can't say I agree with their overall philosophy but in though economic times saving money is important.

[stevewar]

just buy a rotor ... seriously
Since I'm the one who wrote the post originally, I will put in my .02. I will never buy anything Dye makes, because the company founder wiped paint in game in which his team was playing (and destroying) walk on players. After having your butt kicked for 1/2 the day, it's a small buy joyous victory to have watched a shot out of my gun fly through the air, smash into him, and leave a glorious splat. Then to see him duck down, rustle around, and come back up without that big splat was infuriating. Rememeber, I was playing with essentially a couple of decent players and about 20 noobs.

That said, if Dye were to offer me a sponsorship, and got Mr. Youngblood to apologize for being a douche that day (I'm not saying he's a douche in general), then I would probably have taken them up on it.

To be honest, I was offered a pro sponsorship and turned it down. I liked playing walk-on games with my friends, and the casual / friendly nature of the game. I think taking the game too seriously might have ruined the fun for me.

My .02

PS.
I have never, and will never own anything made by Dye.

[stevewar]

As far as taking a sponsor ship from SP, I would have to say no. Mainly due to there ethics, I don't take credit for what i haven't done and don't expect to take a hit for what some one else screws up. I really hate what they did to the industry and i can't/wouldn't support them even if they were willing to pay me to play. I would leave the game first.

As far as the DYE issue with the wipe as mentioned befor. Hey every one has a Jackass moment, even in rec ball there is cheating. It happened, its over, don't take it personal because the guy was a dick. For buying a rotor, well i'll pass unless I find one at a VERY good deal. I just prefer the Halo. So it really ins't a ethics issue for this case. Just a preference issue.

one not,e if it was just ANY jackass I wouldn't care, but in this case, it was the HEAD jackass.

[stevewar]

As for the dye issue, the same guy took time to individually help out and hook up our little team from alaska twice while he ran the pan-am. Once with hotel theft issues and another time with needed products. Plus he ran that series with his wife, working with family is cool in my book.

If anyone remembers there was a video of a gog shot on bob long that was removed crazy fast a number of years ago. All in the experience I guess.
Agreed, I don't think the guy is generally a douche bag, he's done a lot for the sport.

I also said in the original post that it is my own persona, and petty issue.

[sjrtk]

one not,e if it was just ANY jackass I wouldn't care, but in this case, it was the HEAD jackass.

I know what you mean no hard feelings, just because you the head doesn't mean your not an ass.

[Pudgey51]

wow guys, i forgot to subscribe to the thread but some good valid points have been made.

stevewar- didnt remember it was u who posted the thread about the beef with dye, but i tried to keep ur name out of it as u can tell by my generalization of the info. in any case, i apologize if u felt obligated to post and bring ur name into it....


as for my side, its a toughy...i dont know if i could turn my back on a companies ethics without knowing everything first and really is any company gonna represent themselves honestly to a perspective representative? they will probably put on their smiley faces nod to ur questions and make everything copasthetic (sp?) but they all have dirt to hide. i guess it would depend on what they were offering. If i could play the amount i want to, never pay a dime, and receive some extra cash inflow i might be persuaded to represent a less than reputable company. for at least a little while, remember dave chappele has represented both pepsi and coke, it just depends on who signed the most recent check...

or if u prefer paintball terms, Ollie Lang once was the poster boy for Dye..but he isnt anymore...and i bet some people have already forgotten that fact...

its a tough one, ill give everyone that. for those of u who can easily say no....i salute u.

[Fat Yoda]

I think most teams today would just bite the bullet and accept the sponsership from anyone no matter what thier polices are. Now a days it is what you can get for free. The love of the game is lacking. The team I usta play for way back in the day (late 80's and up to the mid 90's) was heavely sponsered by S P and Dye and others. I have played against all of them at one time or another. As far as not buying from the said companies that have unscrupulas owners or employees, to each his own. I will not buy a S P marker, barrel system yes, marker no(because of thier polices against AKA and how they ripped off Pnue Ventures) With so many different companys out thier now, you should be able to find anything you need.
And yes I will say the Gardner brothers are butt heads and Mr. Long are some of the best cheaters out there. But then again, thier heydays are over.
Stay true to you convictions and play safe, and most of all HAVE FUN!!!!