Wedge design.

[luke]

I plan on designing a wedge mount pretty soon, looking for input in what you guys like about them, or what you would like to see in one. I’ve never used one so I want to make sure all things are considered.

I’ll figure out a good angle and such, but when I’m going through the design process I don’t want to over look something you guys may like or dislike. Really I’m after information like how you like the marker to shoulder, marker and hopper height, things of that nature. Pros and cons will help will help.

[zondo]

NDZ Drop kick:

http://www.newdesignz.com/Pics/art_drop%20kick.jpg

Fireball Mountain Power Angel:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/misc/fbm_angle/screws.jpg

I think both are about at 30*.

[river031403]

1. finally
2. 45 degree angle
3. direct mount to grip
4. cut for dovetail so on/off asa may slide back and forth(so it will fit inline maxflo reg)
5. i take one thanks
6. did the cad file i sent you work for you? :D

[luke]

So that is all you need in a wedge? Don’t want something different? Don’t care how it fits your shoulder? Height? Wrist angle? etc

[fierymartel]

Luke, I've used a wedge (NDZ Kick) for years and really like it. Bringing it up and swinging it out for snap shooting I find is much easier with the tank resting on the shoulder. I think you may need a greater angle that shortens the "pull" length when using a 68cui tank.

[zondo]

So that is all you need in a wedge? Don’t want something different? Don’t care how it fits your shoulder? Height? Wrist angle? etc

I don't have one to try, and not through my lack of looking either.

Are you going to try a couple of different angles on a couple different angle style of grip frames?

EDIT:
Might be interesting to see picks of markers shouldered with 45, 86, 90, Y, and Z grips.

[river031403]

So that is all you need in a wedge? Don’t want something different? Don’t care how it fits your shoulder? Height? Wrist angle? etc

aahhh mine will be used with a zgrip. I'm currently using one from FBM dont like though cuz i currently have to use a cp rail to have it work with my maxflo reg

[luke]

2. 45 degree angle

Why?


3. direct mount to grip

Is there a diffrent option?



4. cut for dovetail so on/off asa may slide back and forth(so it will fit inline maxflo reg)

They will be a dovetail mount.



5. i take one thanks

Cool.



6. did the cad file i sent you work for you?

Not really, (No offence, but you ask) it didn’t have any information I needed. These are pretty standard in regard to mounts (grip mount or reg mount)

I'm looking for information on what you guys deem comfortable and why, other wise I'll just design something I like.

[river031403]

Why?



Is there a diffrent option?




They will be a dovetail mount.




Cool.




Not really, (No offence, but you ask) it didn’t have any information I needed. These are pretty standard in regard to mounts (grip mount or reg mount)

I'm looking for information on what you guys deem comfortable and why, other wise I'll just design something I like.
:( i think im just gonna log off now. let me know when your done with them.

[fierymartel]

The lesser the angle, the greater the distance between the grip and shoulder. The object is to make for a tighter profile allowing you to snap quicker while staying tight by using the butt of the tank as a pivot against your shoulder. The greater the distance between the grip and shoulder, the wider your profile becomes when pivoting the marker off center one way or the other.

[fierymartel]

However, the greater the angle, the more uncomfortable it becomes in terms of the wrist. I hope this helps.

[sQuidvision]

I'll have a render for you in an hour or so... Possibly something with a bit more mass appeal.

[river031403]

However, the greater the angle, the more uncomfortable it becomes in terms of the wrist. I hope this helps.
unless you own a zgrip

[sQuidvision]

how about something adjustable?

http://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b461/sQuid-Vision/Kick.jpg

[Ratt]

Quite frankly, I think there is very little to improve on with respect to the NDZ drop kick. I find the angle PERFECT for all my guns/setups. The design was simple, and fairly easy to install. The only problem I saw with the drop kick was that the bearings inside the drop kick were pressed in, and they were steel bearings. This meant that you could not take the bearings out and have the drop kick anodized to match your gun. And from what I was told, you can't anodize the piece an aluminum part with steel bearing still inside. So, in order to make a wedge that could be anno'd (by the user), you would either have to make the bearings out of aluminum (probably not feasible), find a way to secure the asa to the wedge without the use of setscrews and bearings, or design the wedge so you could easily remove the bearings, have it anno'd, then re-install the bearings.

If you wanted to get a little fancy with it, you could mill/engrave your own logo (if 'Luke's Customs' has a logo), or maybe the AGD logo onto the sides of the wedge... Honestly, you wouldn't have to make the thing fancy. Whatever you make, you can count me in for at least one (if not, two) wedges when you start selling.

I have tried (unsuccessfully) to find someone to take this project on. Believe me - I am THRILLED that you are taking this project on and moving forward with it. :headbang:

[Ratt]

Zondo got me thinking, so I decided to take one of my dropkicks off of one of my guns and install it onto my Z-gripped RT (never did this before). As you can see, the setup is pretty tight. On the shoulder, it feels very comfortable. As is, there is very little room to slip your thumb in between the the grip and the tank. I can do it, but I have smaller hands. Someone with larger hands may or may not be able to fit their thumb in there. Some adjustments may need to be made in regards to the angle and/or how far forward or back the wedge mounts to the frame.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb91/RogerRamirezJr/IMG_0571.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb91/RogerRamirezJr/IMG_0568.jpg

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb91/RogerRamirezJr/IMG_0567.jpg

[luke]

I have thought about a fully adjustable wedge in the past, not sure where I want to take this though.

I have also done a few prototypes of a wedge with an offset reg mount to clear the wrist, it just didn’t work out well, it was a little awkward to shoulder.

[luke]

The only problem I saw with the drop kick was that the bearings inside the drop kick were pressed in, and they were steel bearings. This meant that you could not take the bearings out and have the drop kick anodized to match your gun. And from what I was told, you can't anodize the piece an aluminum part with steel bearing still inside.

Thats a fact, anodizing will eat the steal balls away.





So, in order to make a wedge that could be anno'd (by the user), you would either have to make the bearings out of aluminum (probably not feasible), find a way to secure the asa to the wedge without the use of setscrews and bearings, or design the wedge so you could easily remove the bearings, have it anno'd, then re-install the bearings.

I would not copy their mounting system anyway, I'll do something diffrent.

[Ratt]

I would not copy their mounting system anyway, I'll do something diffrent.


Awesome!

[Ando]

Those bearings can be popped out. Remove the set screw(s) on the side and using that same allen key. Install it where the set screws were to push the bearings out threw the bottom holes. They'll come out with little to no force.

Like luke said the offset wedge was awkward to shoulder. The biggest issues we had was clearance of the thumb like Ratt showed in his pic. The offset of the wedge fixed it but it threw off the LOS down the marker which most people use to aim. I never got use to or comfortable with it and I played with it a lot. Even took it to last years TB.

That whole project was a sore subject with both Luke and I and it got scrapped/put to the side.

Just keep it plain and simple. One angle which I would say NDZ got right for regular 45 and 90 frames and one that's angled a little more downward for say the Z-grip if you even want to go that route again :rolleyes:

Only complaint I have using wedges and the Z-grip for that matter is after a while the tank reg digs into your wrist pretty bad. You def need to use gloves or wrist protection when using them.

Luke has a offset rail for the Z-Grip that fixed that issue and we tried to incorporate that offset with the wedge but..."it got scrapped/put to the side". :tard:

[luke]

Ando, I have not completely given up on it, now that I'm machining on a cnc mill things that posed issues (mainly a ton of time) on my manual have gone away, if I can figure out how to make it work I will certainly make some. I'm not sure if I should mess with it on this project or not, I'm still undecided on which way to go. I have materials for a standard wedge so I should probably just do those first. Once I get some information on the pros and cons of these I can do some different mock ups to get a personal feel for them.

[Coralis]

On your offset wedge do you think that using a twist so that the back of the bottle would be back on the center line would work for you guys. (I was reading the thread and the idea just kinda popped into my head)

[luke]

On your offset wedge do you think that using a twist so that the back of the bottle would be back on the center line would work for you guys. (I was reading the thread and the idea just kinda popped into my head)

That is pretty much what my off-set rail does, but the problem with incorporating in the wedge is it moves the tank into an awkward position on the chest.

[C_losjoker]

I have a hando cradle on my viking set, love how it works and very comfy. Looks forward to this.

[zondo]

Just keep it plain and simple. One angle which I would say NDZ got right for regular 45 and 90 frames and one that's angled a little more downward for say the Z-grip if you even want to go that route again :rolleyes:


Now I wonder if an Endo style drop is a better option for Z and Y-grips because it would drop the tank down and open that gap for the thumb (at least, I think it would).

[C_losjoker]

Now I wonder if an Endo style drop is a better option for Z and Y-grips because it would drop the tank down and open that gap for the thumb (at least, I think it would).

damn auto correct, thats the cradle I have. I can put it on a z grip and take some picures.

[zondo]

damn auto correct, thats the cradle I have. I can put it on a z grip and take some picures.

I figured that's what you meant ;)

[Ando]

The Endo would cause it's taller.

[darknite667]

While I like the 30 degree angle of my dropkick a slightly greater angle of say 40-45 degree angle would be more desirable in my opinion. While on the subject of new/improved wedge designs I would like the throw the idea of a wedge for the axe/mini out there. The use of bearings used to tighten in the dropkick and the asa in the mini bear a striking resemblance in the way they work. Food for thought.

[Ando]

The problem with a sharper angle is you start having clearance issues with your tank and the back end of the marker.

[darknite667]

The problem with a sharper angle is you start having clearance issues with your tank and the back end of the marker.

I agree 100%, a greater angle would be problematic to markers that extend past the back of the trigger frame much or used a trigger frame aside from a 45-90 so the 30 degree wedge angle would probably be the way to go. Its just a personal preference that if possible an angle greater then 30 degrees would be a more cotmfortable option. Im hesitant to throw this out there for scrutiny but since this thread is about comming up with wedge option ideas I will, has anyone thought about crossing the wedge design with a cradle rail system? It would be adjustable e individual marker setup and would keep the tank centered with the rest of the marker. Just throwing it out there.

[OPBN]

How hard would it be to make it a two pc design where the two halves are held together with a bolt and the mating sides are a ratchet design? I can't think of a good reference that everyone would know, but think something along the lines of the MM2K9 breach, but with more settings. This way it would be adjustable and might appeal to a wider audience.

[luke]

I’m going to put lots of smiley faces here so no one gets their feelings stepped on.

:) :) :) :) :)

No offence to anyone that is contributing to the ideas here, but we are drifting away from my intent of the thread. I'm not asking for design ideas, what I'm after is "part function ideas" if that makes sense.

I have many ideas on how to make the part adjustable in everyway necessary. If you guys can tell me what function and what problems you have with the wedge designs that are out there now, I will try to design a part to the standards which you guys deem important.

My only real problem is I have never used this part myself so I don’t have a reference to the pros and cons of its intended function.

Remember form follows function.
Also, making references to other products does not do me any good unless someone wants to send them to me to use for reference.

Here is what I have gathered from the input so far:

A. Basic idea behind the wedge is to shorten the marker horizontally.
B. I'm also guessing that the tank resting on the shoulder stabilizes the marker for firing.
C. Problem area: Wrist angle.
D. A single angle will not suit every frame, i.e. 45, 90*, Y or the Z grip.

When we get closer I will start doing mock ups so I figure out some of the issues myself, I just have a few projects ahead of it so it give me some time to gather your likes and dislikes.

I’ve ran into this for many years (not just in paintball) people come to me and ask me to make something and the first thing they start with is how to design and go about making the part, my response is always the same “tell me what you want it to do, not how to design or make it”. ;)

:) :) :) :)

[river031403]

seems like the NDZ works good with just about every frame out there why not tweek it a little so there is no problems legally.small smiley face so nobody's feelings get hurt :)

[river031403]

I would think that this product is'nt for everybody out there. So who ever is comfortable with the angle usually purchases one and whoever is uncomfortable with the wrist angle can choose not to purchase it. your never gonna make everybody happy with a product unless it is a one-off to suit that particular individual. So that being said it seems like majority have had no problems with the NDZ wedge. the only problem is that they are not going to make them anymore yet some of us are still in the market for them so i hope that helps answer any questions of what is in demand for this product. just my 2 cents

[OPBN]

I've not used one, but was considering it. I am not sure of what angle is best, thus my idea for adjustability. I also thought part of the reason for the angle was resting it on the shoulder helped with weight distribution resulting in less fatigue.

[river031403]

I've not used one, but was considering it. I am not sure of what angle is best, thus my idea for adjustability. I also thought part of the reason for the angle was resting it on the shoulder helped with weight distribution resulting in less fatigue.

yeah the shoulder resting is very sweet! you get in nice and tight behind the gun

[going_home]

New Designz drop kick.

Got 3 myself.

The angle is just right.


;)

[need4reebs]

I’m going to put lots of smiley faces here so no one gets their feelings stepped on.

:) :) :) :) :)

No offence to anyone that is contributing to the ideas here, but we are drifting away from my intent of the thread. I'm not asking for design ideas, what I'm after is "part function ideas" if that makes sense.

I have many ideas on how to make the part adjustable in everyway necessary. If you guys can tell me what function and what problems you have with the wedge designs that are out there now, I will try to design a part to the standards which you guys deem important.

My only real problem is I have never used this part myself so I don’t have a reference to the pros and cons of its intended function.

Remember form follows function.
Also, making references to other products does not do me any good unless someone wants to send them to me to use for reference.

Here is what I have gathered from the input so far:

A. Basic idea behind the wedge is to shorten the marker horizontally.
B. I'm also guessing that the tank resting on the shoulder stabilizes the marker for firing.
C. Problem area: Wrist angle.
D. A single angle will not suit every frame, i.e. 45, 90*, Y or the Z grip.

When we get closer I will start doing mock ups so I figure out some of the issues myself, I just have a few projects ahead of it so it give me some time to gather your likes and dislikes.

I’ve ran into this for many years (not just in paintball) people come to me and ask me to make something and the first thing they start with is how to design and go about making the part, my response is always the same “tell me what you want it to do, not how to design or make it”. ;)





hey Luke thanks for taking on this project! the drop kick is a great wedge, but i agree with Ando that to much of a Angle on a Z-grip frame and it starts to interfere with the back of the marker! the Z-grip frame is the only frame i have to take my tank off to easily get to the valve cause of where the angle of the drop kick puts the tank? so far thats the only con for the drop kick that i kno of we except you rarely find them...haha...its gonna be kool to see what you come up with! thanks man!!! :headbang:

[river031403]

hey Luke thanks for taking on this project! the drop kick is a great wedge, but i agree with Ando that to much of a Angle on a Z-grip frame and it starts to interfere with the back of the marker! the Z-grip frame is the only frame i have to take my tank off to easily get to the valve cause of where the angle of the drop kick puts the tank? so far thats the only con for the drop kick that i kno of we except you rarely find them...haha...its gonna be kool to see what you come up with! thanks man!!! :headbang:
thats why it will be cut with a dovetail.this way you can comp for funky angle

[Ando]

thats why it will be cut with a dovetail.this way you can comp for funky angle
The NDZ wedges already have dovetails and still get in the way. :rolleyes:

[luke]

It’s agreed that one design will not suite all frames, no need to argue that...

[river031403]

The NDZ wedges already have dovetails and still get in the way. :rolleyes:
yeah i am aware that they have a dovetail cut into them but doesnt seem to be in the way if you move far back enough in my case anyway. :p

[river031403]

New Designz drop kick.

Got 3 myself.

The angle is just right.


;)
^^^^^^^^^ thats what im talkin about :cheers:

[luke]

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/art_drop20kick.jpg

Can anyone that owns one of these tell me what angle this is?
I don’t plan on copying it; I just need a starting point for a prototype. I have an idea I would like to design for an off-set wedge, this info will give me a head start.

[C_losjoker]

Hey luke, how about combining the endo with ptp drop. Ptp drop you can attach the asa on the left or right side of the drop.

[luke]

Got a picture?

[Ando]

It's basically the same thing we were doing luke but adj left to right.

[RT Lover]

looks good didnt know they had these, making a adjustable one would seem best :confused:

[luke]

OK, so I designed and manufactured a part that will allow me to test as many configurations as I want until I can dial in the perfect off-set and wedge angle. I really doubt I will end up making a fully adjustable assembly because it would probably end up costing too much and probably look gaudy too boot.

I have 7-8 custom projects coming in this week so I really don’t anticipate much progress on this one over the next few weeks. But it is at the front of the line for the next product. :cool:

[river031403]

:dance:

[river031403]

OK, so I designed and manufactured a part that will allow me to test as many configurations as I want until I can dial in the perfect off-set and wedge angle. I really doubt I will end up making a fully adjustable assembly because it would probably end up costing too much and probably look gaudy too boot.

I have 7-8 custom projects coming in this week so I really don’t anticipate much progress on this one over the next few weeks. But it is at the front of the line for the next product. :cool:

status

[rawbutter]

status

Tunaman's last post mentioned he's been recently diagnosed with cancer. This might be on the back burner for a while.

[Justus]

Tunaman's last post mentioned he's been recently diagnosed with cancer. This might be on the back burner for a while.
Maybe I missed it, but what does Tuna's chemotherapy have to do with Luke's wedge design? As far as I know, Luke isn't shutting down shop. In fact, he just got done doing some excellent work for me (again).

[luke]

I did find a configuration that is comfortable (offset-wedge) but there are issues I need to figure out, otherwise it may end the project. I am currently working on other stuff and waiting for solution to this one to come to me.

[mr doo doo]

Hey Luke,

Didnt read through the thread, but I have one of these NDZ Dropkicks that I can send to you for, er, research. Send me a PM if you are interested - that way I get an email - because I dont check the forums much.

[river031403]

Hey Luke,

Didnt read through the thread, but I have one of these NDZ Dropkicks that I can send to you for, er, research. Send me a PM if you are interested - that way I get an email - because I dont check the forums much.

im interested if you would like to sell the dropkick let me know :)

[river031403]

Bump

[luke]

I spent some time on this and ran into issues with doing an offset wedge, I'm still not sure if I can work it out or not. At the time I needed to work on other projects with fewer issues. No one really seemed interested in a simple wedge so I never made those.

[E30bimmerman]

There is really no need in my opinion to redesign something like the wedge. I have one on my intelliframe and I have no issues with it. I love how much easier it is to sholder and brings the marker closer to the shooter. The only thing we really need is to get someone to start making them again and maybe make one with a slightly smaller angle for those z grips. Just my $0.2 on the matter. I know there are alot of guys out there looking for one.

[river031403]

There is really no need in my opinion to redesign something like the wedge. I have one on my intelliframe and I have no issues with it. I love how much easier it is to sholder and brings the marker closer to the shooter. The only thing we really need is to get someone to start making them again and maybe make one with a slightly smaller angle for those z grips. Just my $0.2 on the matter. I know there are alot of guys out there looking for one.
:headbang: Exactly you nailed it!!! Seems like every forum I go onto there is a demand for them once someone decides to make them again alot more people are gonna want them. Make them and they will come :D

[luke]

No one makes a simple wedge anymore?

[river031403]

No one makes a simple wedge anymore?
FBM MAKES THEM
but I believe some of us AO'ers would like to see you make them like the NDZ angled drop no changes just make em :)

[luke]

That's doable. I will look into this again when the grip frame is complete...

[Ando]

I pretty sure FMB isn't doing them either. I ask about them when I asked about the stilettos.

[river031403]

I pretty sure FMB isn't doing them either. I ask about them when I asked about the stilettos.
You gotta talk to the right person there they have a kid answering phones in the morning I ordered two a few months back and they got to me in three days.Theyre also on there web page

[luke]

You gotta talk to the right person there they have a kid answering phones in the morning I ordered two a few months back and they got to me in three days.Theyre also on there web page

Can you show me a FBM wedge?

[river031403]

I'm in Texas for another 10 days but I'll see what I can do about getting a pic up of on. I would really hope you be interested in making a wedge closer to Ndz

[dboggs79]

Any thoughts on a wedge that would allow for a sleeper pneu mod?

[river031403]

Thinking that might be difficult sealing it to asa and bottom of grip frame unless you have a grip frame with a wedge under side incorporated in it already. I don't think any machinist would be up to that? Just my .02 cents :cheers:

[dboggs79]

Thinking that might be difficult sealing it to asa and bottom of grip frame unless you have a grip frame with a wedge under side incorporated in it already. I don't think any machinist would be up to that? Just my .02 cents :cheers:
Yeah, I'm a machinist myself. Been kinda kicking around the idea in my head. Sometimes a second set of eyes sees the obvious. Maybe someone else can come up with a simple solution.

[wetwrks]

Thinking that might be difficult sealing it to asa and bottom of grip frame unless you have a grip frame with a wedge under side incorporated in it already. I don't think any machinist would be up to that? Just my .02 cents :cheers:

Um, I would think you could do it just like you would a direct mount Asa.

You drill the asa and put an o ring in to seal it to the grip frame.

With a wedge you will drill the asa and also the wedge. You use an o ring to seal the asa to the wedge and another o ring to seal the wedge to the grip frame. Just a bit more work but should be doable.

[river031403]

Um, I would think you could do it just like you would a direct mount Asa.

You drill the asa and put an o ring in to seal it to the grip frame.

With a wedge you will drill the asa and also the wedge. You use an o ring to seal the asa to the wedge and another o ring to seal the wedge to the grip frame. Just a bit more work but should be doable.

I tossed that idea around also but was thinking you have more orings more problems aka more money more problems. nature of the game. :p

[OPBN]

What if you secured the wedge from inside the frame? Instead of coming up from the bottom through the ASA to secure it, you came from above through the frame into the wedge. You could secure the ASA to the bottom of the wedge as you would normally to the frame from the bottom.

[dboggs79]

Biggest issue I see is where to put the hole. Look at the distance between the holes in the pic on the first page. Not much space there to play with.

[OPBN]

Cant you elbow the hole? drill part way down from the top and then come back through from the bottom? I don't think the hole has to be that big.

[river031403]

At this point were just trying to get him to make one like NDZ's wedge. :)

[luke]

At this point were just trying to get him to make one like NDZ's wedge. :)

No worries, I'm just going to keep it simple at this point and get it done (after the grip frame) I have materials already for a simple wedge. ;)

[river031403]

No worries, I'm just going to keep it simple at this point and get it done (after the grip frame) I have materials already for a simple wedge. ;)
Thanks Luke! :cheers:

[need4reebs]

you could possibly use a LPR extension that could go thru the Wedge? that would eliminate the extra O-ring? if you have access to a square aluminum block, drill holes to mount to the frame and then cut the square aluminum block into two 45 degree triangles and then you will have to wedges to experiment with? countersink the mounting holes to the frame, drill and tap the holes to mount a ASA and then drill a hole up the middle of the wedge big enough for the LPR extension to go thru? hopefully i said that right? if not my bad? if i had the machines to do it i would try it out, but it shouldnt be too hard to do with the proper tools?

[need4reebs]

you could possibly use a LPR extension that could go thru the Wedge? that would eliminate the extra O-ring? if you have access to a square aluminum block, drill holes to mount to the frame and then cut the square aluminum block into two 45 degree triangles and then you will have to wedges to experiment with? countersink the mounting holes to the frame, drill and tap the holes to mount a ASA and then drill a hole up the middle of the wedge big enough for the LPR extension to go thru? hopefully i said that right? if not my bad? if i had the machines to do it i would try it out, but it shouldnt be too hard to do with the proper tools?


and Crickets to another good idea? oh well??? :rolleyes:

[river031403]

You got pics of Lpr extension

[Arstron]

I would love to see something bigger then a wedge, something like the old endo cradle that not only angled the tank, but pushed it back away from the trigger frame as well. :D

[need4reebs]

You got pics of Lpr extension


there is a pic in the Pneumag kit section

[luke]

Guys, I'm a one man band, I can only do one project at a time. ;)


I would love to see something bigger then a wedge, something like the old endo cradle that not only angled the tank, but pushed it back away from the trigger frame as well. :D

That is what I'm looking into instead of the off-set, just kicking it back a tad will clean up the grip-wrist-tank problem.

Here is what I was working on>

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/wedgedrop.jpg

[Ando]

wrong angle.

[river031403]

No bueno sorry I know it takes time effort swet etc. just s simple new Luke designz angled drop kick would do just fine. I have a New Designz Drop Kick waiting for me in the mailbox as soon as I get home I can take photos and measurements if you'd like look :cheers:

[need4reebs]

those look like the ol Kapp drops, just these have a dove tail...i cant remember if the Kapp drops have the dove tail or not tho?

nope the kapp drop doesnt have a dovetail...here is a pic:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kapp-Drop-Forward-Red-NEW-/150141244103?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item22f51d92c7

[Arstron]

hmmm I like it Luke. Just estimating comparing that to my endo, it should put the tank around the same area as the Endo Jr would. :dance:

[luke]

I will have to do a mockup to figure out a good angle, just moving the tank back changes how the tank rests on the shoulder. But I think this will fix the grip/tank/wrist issue.

[Ando]

But I think this will fix the grip/tank/wrist issue.
:cheers:

[going_home]

So if I'm looking at it right, this design is moving the tank further back on the frame ?

Why ?

The purpose of the NDZ Drop Kick design is to get the gun closer to you making
your arms closer to your body, a tighter package, so to speak.

Maybe I'm just not understanding how it attaches to the frame.

:confused:

[river031403]

I totally agree with this guy ^^^^^just keep it the same as Ndz drop kick simple

[Ando]

Have you guys played all day with a Z-Grip or one of these Drop-kicks?

If not, then you don't know nor do you understand what Luke is trying to accomplish with this design. Let him work the kinks out and then pick it apart.

These drops are great but they have a flaw...a very painful flaw. :cry:

[need4reebs]

I totally agree with this guy ^^^^^just keep it the same as Ndz drop kick simple


hey River and Ando here is that idea, took 30 minutes with a hack saw and ill clean it up with some sand paper...but you end up with 2 angled drops similar to the FBM and NDZ drops, and the bigger piece can be used to experiment with the Sleeper mod? just used a extra A-5 drop adapter that can be bought off ebay for 12.95 and under

Pics

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh230/jiggawat99/Angledropidea.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh230/jiggawat99/agi1.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh230/jiggawat99/agi.jpg

would be alot easier to do if ya had better tools, but it can be cut with a hacksaw :headbang:

[going_home]

Have you guys played all day with a Z-Grip or one of these Drop-kicks?

If not, then you don't know nor do you understand what Luke is trying to accomplish with this design. Let him work the kinks out and then pick it apart.

These drops are great but they have a flaw...a very painful flaw. :cry:


Maybe it would work better for a z grip.

But not for a standard frame.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/going_home/Stuff%20to%20keep/DSC_0002-10.jpg

And yes I have used a drop kick all day with no issues.

Whats it supposedly causing pain to ?

Thats news to me.


:ninja:

[river031403]

Have you guys played all day with a Z-Grip or one of these Drop-kicks?

If not, then you don't know nor do you understand what Luke is trying to accomplish with this design. Let him work the kinks out and then pick it apart.

These drops are great but they have a flaw...a very painful flaw. :cry:
First of all Yes I have. Man up ando :rofl: :cheers:
Secondly I was the one asking him to make a drop kick wedge For me but then he wanted to see if there was more interest

[Arstron]

Just for reference, although the endo design pushes the tank regulator back, the angle actually makes for a tighter setup. I roughly traced out lukes design in my sign program and overlayed it on top of this picture, of course I was guessing on the size, but the current angle did look more like the drop kick then the endo.

http://www.fusionowners.org/DSC_0225.jpg

[river031403]

Just for reference, although the endo design pushes the tank regulator back, the angle actually makes for a tighter setup. I roughly traced out lukes design in my sign program and overlayed it on top of this picture, of course I was guessing on the size, but the current angle did look more like the drop kick then the endo.

http://www.fusionowners.org/DSC_0225.jpg
There is nooooo way that the endo cradle gets the bottle and gun in tighter than a Ndz drop kick I'll hook mine up today and post a pick
I'll leave it to the computer savi to do a side by side comparison

[Justus]

There is nooooo way that the endo cradle gets the bottle and gun in tighter than a Ndz drop kick I'll hook mine up today and post a pick
I'll leave it to the computer savi to do a side by side comparison

I don't know... looking at the NDZ that going home posted, compared to the Endo that Arstron posted, and it looks like he's right. Just judging from the back of the valve to the back of the tank, it appears that the Endo makes a shorter distance. The tank sits higher, and on a slightly different angle, but that's exactly what makes it tighter in the front-to-back line.

Of course, it's not going to look that way if you post a pic using something smaller than a 68/45 tank or using something other than a standard-sized regulator.

[river031403]

I don't know... looking at the NDZ that going home posted, compared to the Endo that Arstron posted, and it looks like he's right. Just judging from the back of the valve to the back of the tank, it appears that the Endo makes a shorter distance. The tank sits higher, and on a slightly different angle, but that's exactly what makes it tighter in the front-to-back line.

Of course, it's not going to look that way if you post a pic using something smaller than a 68/45 tank or using something other than a standard-sized regulator.
What If you slid the tank and forward with the dove tail then what kind of angle would you have then?

[zondo]

Have you guys played all day with a Z-Grip or one of these Drop-kicks?

If not, then you don't know nor do you understand what Luke is trying to accomplish with this design. Let him work the kinks out and then pick it apart.

These drops are great but they have a flaw...a very painful flaw. :cry:

I mounted a Drop Kick on a vert frame and did NOT like the feel of my tank and wrist fighting for space, so I never even used it in a game. I can only imagine what a Y or Z-grip would feel like. The Endo looks like it solves that with an noticeable drop.

Looking forward to see what you come up with, Luke. :cheers:

[river031403]

I mounted a Drop Kick on a vert frame and did NOT like the feel of my tank and wrist fighting for space, so I never even used it in a game. I can only imagine what a Y or Z-grip would feel like. The Endo looks like it solves that with an noticeable drop.

Looking forward to see what you come up with, Luke. :cheers:
Do you still have your Ndz drop kick? If you don't like It Free up I'll take it and yes looking forward to seeing what the final Luke's design will be :cheers:

[river031403]

Guys, I'm a one man band, I can only do one project at a time. ;)



That is what I'm looking into instead of the off-set, just kicking it back a tad will clean up the grip-wrist-tank problem.

Here is what I was working on>

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/wedgedrop.jpg
Luke I like and trust your expertise

[Arstron]

Here is a quick little comparison I did while bored here at work. If going_home's mag had a regular 45 there would still only be maybe a 1/2" difference, not what I expected from the pictures i've seen of the drop kick. Both tanks are very close in length from end to where the regulator screws.

http://www.fusionowners.org/compare.jpg

[Ando]

First of all Yes I have. Man up ando :rofl: :cheers:t
It's not a question of manning up. It's the carpel tunnel feeling you get the day after playing



Secondly I was the one asking him to make a drop kick wedge For me but then he wanted to see if there was more interest
This isn't lukes first time to the rodeo. He and I (more he) came up with a different drop kick design like 2 yrs ago. Tried to incorporate his Zgrip drop with the wedge.

Biggest issue with the wedges to include the Z-Frame is where the gauges and fittings sit once the tank is sitting at it's 45* angle. Gloves are somewhat needed to play.

All day play with gauges and fittings resting on the wrist will turn any good time into a problem.

[river031403]

It's not a question of manning up. It's the carpel tunnel feeling you get the day after playing


This isn't lukes first time to the rodeo. He and I (more he) came up with a different drop kick design like 2 yrs ago. Tried to incorporate his Zgrip drop with the wedge.

Biggest issue with the wedges to include the Z-Frame is where the gauges and fittings sit once the tank is sitting at it's 45* angle. Gloves are somewhat needed to play.

All day play with gauges and fittings resting on the wrist will turn any good time into a problem.
Sorry to here you suffer from Carple tunnel.
Where are the other designs you and Luke have been doing R&D on for the last 2years?now that I no longer have a zgrip maybe an ando ;) aka endo type drop may be better? Personally I play very tight so I'm interested in a design that keeps the marker in close I play up front alot so in playing up front it beneficial to have it tucked in close.Looking forward to what Luke ends up with :cheers:

[luke]

:)
The off-set wedge design has been prototyped, tested and failed a few years ago. It’s something I do want to figure out just because I have it in my mind that I can with some effort. Even if I do a simple wedge for guys that don’t care about wrist angle, that does not mean I’m not going to pursue the other. The reason for this thread was to find out likes and dislikes on the various configurations and the problems they pose for players; gathering that information gives me a direction for the design process. There really is no right or wrong answer and it’s not a competition for a single design to win a production run.
;)

[river031403]

:cheers:
:)
The off-set wedge design has been prototyped, tested and failed a few years ago. It’s something I do want to figure out just because I have it in my mind that I can with some effort. Even if I do a simple wedge for guys that don’t care about wrist angle, that does not mean I’m not going to pursue the other. The reason for this thread was to find out likes and dislikes on the various configurations and the problems they pose for players; gathering that information gives me a direction for the design process. There really is no right or wrong answer and it’s not a competition for a single design to win a production run.
;)

[Ando]

Sorry to here you suffer from Carple tunnel.
Lol...I don't have it, but it sucks never the less. If you play with gloves on then you probably never experienced it. I don't like playing with gloves but it's really a must for me since everything i shoot has either a wedge or stiletto installed.

[river031403]

Lol...I don't have it, but it sucks never the less. If you play with gloves on then you probably never experienced it. I don't like playing with gloves but it's really a must for me since everything i shoot has either a wedge or stiletto installed.
I don't play with gloves and yes I did get a my thumb knuckle a bit raw

[river031403]

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/133DFF5A-570E-45D5-BB7E-B43E0757AE3F-3633-00000378B0334B3B.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/8DE5ECF1-43F0-4EEE-8D22-7F6586EF3428-3633-000003789754A584.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/B27A3EF7-3C3B-44F5-B2E7-B4053961FD69-3633-00000378A32A3F5D.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/1E795EC2-DB08-4F45-9AAF-93B3BA0EC222-3633-000003788DCCEC11.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/C2AF0022-A80A-44F4-AABE-7A2AE7ABD18B-3633-0000037884CA976E.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/0A2E4A12-496A-4A3D-9320-75F0747FC951-3633-000003787CA8E328.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/88925325-20BF-42BB-A427-075D9A17141A-3633-000003787185DF46.jpg

[luke]

Thats a cool idea, I may be able to use that for the off-set design, thanks for the post...

[river031403]

Thats a cool idea, I may be able to use that for the off-set design, thanks for the post...
:hail: Your welcome ;)
I predict some will like and some may not like :p

[C_losjoker]

I like it. what rail is that?

[river031403]

I like it. what rail is that?
Home brew wedge

[C_losjoker]

Home brew wedge

The wedge is, but the rail on the red ule?

[river031403]

The wedge is, but the rail on the red ule?
tac1 rail may be for sale soon not sure yet I have a slug rail in need to get milled out first for project

[river031403]

Bump LUKE bump

[luke]

I cant even begin to think about this until the frames, triggers and panels are done. I'm a one man show. ;)

[river031403]

Seems like this keeps getting pushed behind other projects.

[river031403]

Up?

[luke]

I'm back on this project, I think I have overcome the design issues I was having a few years ago. This will be my final attempt on the design that I have in mind! As stated before, prototypes have been made that failed to make the grade but I think I have worked all that out. If I can pull it off it should be pretty slick, at least I will think so. :)

[Syko89]

Interested

[barkingspider]

Yep........definitely interested

[dodge3500]

Ooooh yeah baby.:)

[RT Lover]

Sweet

[grub]

Yep, I'm in

-grub

[grub]

BTW can you make it match the armada rail:stick: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

-grub

[wetwrks]

BTW can you make it match the armada rail:stick: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

-grub

Is that the am length or the rt length...and is it the early version or the later? :D

[dodge3500]

?

[luke]

?

They are messing with me. ;)

[dodge3500]

Lol they got me too then lol.

[Sockpuppet]

I would buy at least 3 of these if you get a working design.:D

[luke]

I nailed down a design I like. This is more about function than looks, a wedge is a wedge, but I'm stoked non the less. Now I have to figure out how to make fixtures for it! Easier said than done I'm afraid. :shooting:

[wetwrks]

Sweet. I might even give one a shot.

[luke]

What type of ASA mount is preferred, standard dovetail, T-slot, standard two 10-32 screw??

[maverick13]

With a wedge, I'd say standard dovetail.

[wetwrks]

With a wedge, I'd say standard dovetail.

Yep

[Grelvire]

All my stuff is dovetail

[dano_____]

I like the option of a dovetail and 10-32 holes. I like to use direct mount bl asas for certain guns and like to have the option for both.

[luke]

I like the option of a dovetail and 10-32 holes. I like to use direct mount bl asas for certain guns and like to have the option for both.

Due to the design I can't add 10-32 screw "option" to the bottom of the standard dove tail.

The 10-32 hole design would have to be a separate design (wedge) or I can machine a male T-slot mount that screws to your ASA then mounts in the T-slot on the wedge.

[Syko89]

Dovetail

[Sockpuppet]

I would also prefer Dovetail mount, if that matters at all...

[dodge3500]

Either way will be sweet.:)

[Sk8ermog]

What type of ASA mount is preferred, standard dovetail, T-slot, standard two 10-32 screw??

Can you do it with Spyder off-set holes and Metric threading? ;)

I'm on the train now for one of these. Always wanted to try a wedge and if Luke makes it then you know it's going to be good.

[luke]

Can you do it with Spyder off-set holes and Metric threading? ;)

Can I? Yes.
Will I? No.

[barkingspider]

Dovetail gets my vote

[C_losjoker]

Can you do it with Spyder off-set holes and Metric threading? ;)

I'm on the train now for one of these. Always wanted to try a wedge and if Luke makes it then you know it's going to be good.

Always one in the bunch.

I get the feeling Luke is going to make my wallet hurt for a long time to come. Or worse yet, hurting for real, unless I figure out how to get all the stuff in the house without the wife noticing.

[BLachance75]

Due to the design I can't add 10-32 screw "option" to the bottom of the standard dove tail.

The 10-32 hole design would have to be a separate design (wedge) or I can machine a male T-slot mount that screws to your ASA then mounts in the T-slot on the wedge.

I'd be interested in either of these options, and possibly a dovetail one as well.

[bowcycle]

I hate the "set screw pushing a ball" design on the dropkicks and many other rails. So while I get that dovetail is going to be the standard, I'd rather just have the standard 10-32 screws. You guys should check out stacking a small on/off drop forward on a dropkick. with the 45/68 tanks I use, it puts the butt right in the curve of my shoulder with the top of the marker at eye level.

[luke]

My design does not incorporate the ball bearing style lock down, plus this is an off-set wedge to move the tank and regulator away from your wrist. ;)

The ball bearing lock idea was a necessity on the wedge, they really had no other option on that part.

[audioSLAVE]

My design does not incorporate the ball bearing style lock down, plus this is an off-set wedge to move the tank and regulator away from your wrist. ;)

The ball bearing lock idea was a necessity on the wedge, they really had no other option on that part.

I like this. Something similar, but at the same time different. Now I'm interested.

[luke]

After working on the manufacturing end of these, it looks like the standard 2 screw style mounting is out. The fixturing on these have been the hardest part of the project and what I came up with wont work on those. The best I could do would be a t-slot option.

[maverick13]

And the dovetail ?

[luke]

Dovetails and t-slots are not an issue at this point, if they were the project would have tanked. ;) Of course I still have to test what has been designed and programmed.

[luke]

Been a busy week, all the programming is done, two of the three fixtures are machined, hope to get the third done this weekend, then I can machine a prototype.

[luke]

Boys and girls I think we have it, a wedge-off set rail. I'm happy with how it turned out! Pictures coming...

[luke]

Right Hand Side>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge2_zps56d7cc6b.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge2_zps56d7cc6b.jpg.html)

Left Hand Side>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge3_zpsc7b6d558.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge3_zpsc7b6d558.jpg.html)

Rear View>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge4_zps86b66ea8.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge4_zps86b66ea8.jpg.html)

Comparison to the Wedge.
Angle is the same, tank ends up in the same place on your shoulder.
The Offset Wedge feels the same when shouldered except the tank and regulator is moved out of the way hand and wrist.>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge5_zpscbbdd5c8.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge5_zpscbbdd5c8.jpg.html)

Looks wider from this side, but really there is little difference of where the tank ends up.>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge6_zps548e4e2a.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/LukesCustomsOffsetWedge6_zps548e4e2a.jpg.html)

Trick little screw mount. First you install the screws into the bottom of your grip frame leaving about an 1/8" between the screw head and the bottom of the grip. Then slide the wedge over the screw heads and slide forward. Then it's tightened by running the allen wrench through the wedge from the bottom to tighten the screws down the rest of the way.>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/4170d01a-94ed-4df4-ae64-2ac32141021e_zps1303772a.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/4170d01a-94ed-4df4-ae64-2ac32141021e_zps1303772a.jpg.html)

[audioSLAVE]

I love it. You're going to hate me for this, but is there the option to mill the underhang lip of the wedge so that it is flush with the front of your Luke's frame? That was my beef with the Dropkick on your frame.

[zondo]

Cool! I'd like to see it mocked up with the warpfeed too.

[audioSLAVE]

I love it. You're going to hate me for this, but is there the option to mill the underhang lip of the wedge so that it is flush with the front of your Luke's frame? That was my beef with the Dropkick on your frame.
After a closer look, no. The frame mounting screw hole would get cut into, my bad.

[Grelvire]

Want, especially since I use Armageddon regs on my setups........

[luke]

I love it. You're going to hate me for this, but is there the option to mill the underhang lip of the wedge so that it is flush with the front of your Luke's frame? That was my beef with the Dropkick on your frame.

You answered your own question, but I did look into that already, really there is no option to change what you see. There were some engineering hurdles to get this to work, form follows function. ;)

[knownothingmags]

hmm nice.

[luke]

Cool! I'd like to see it mocked up with the warpfeed too.

It will definitely work, I threw this air system together just for the picture, not something I use...

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/WarpedOffsetWedge1_zps460edc8e.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/WarpedOffsetWedge1_zps460edc8e.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/WarpedOffsetWedge2_zps21815c0c.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/WarpedOffsetWedge2_zps21815c0c.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/WarpedOffsetWedge3_zps9408168b.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/WarpedOffsetWedge3_zps9408168b.jpg.html)

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/WarpedOffsetWedge4_zps43179961.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/WarpedOffsetWedge4_zps43179961.jpg.html)

[luke]

Want, especially since I use Armageddon regs on my setups........

I think the Geddon will be the 'worst case scenario' with a wedge in general, my offset definitely corrects the problems with it.

I've never used a wedge of any kind so I can't draw from experience in my design but I really can't tell any difference between mine and the original except it frees up you hand and wrist. In other words if you like the wedge you should be happy with my design.

[barkingspider]

Love your twist to a simple component accessory. I'm looking forward to this. Any thoughts to a cool milling pattern on the side, or where you planning on leaving it plain?

[luke]

Love your twist to a simple component accessory. I'm looking forward to this.

For as simple as it looks, you would be surprised how much of a hassle it was to engineer and how difficult it was to actually machine. ;)

[luke]

Any thoughts to a cool milling pattern on the side, or where you planning on leaving it plain?

I had planned on leaving it as is, but could do something, but as soon as I did someone would ask to leave it off. ;) lol

I'm not opposed to doing something, but if I did it won't be an option, that just screws with inventory. :)

[keiko_819]

I had planned on leaving it as is, but could do something, but as soon as I did someone would ask to leave it off. ;) lol

I'm not opposed to doing something, but if I did it won't be an option, that just screws with inventory. :)

I vote for AO hex's...:cheers:

[alpha_q_up23]

I vote for AO hex's...:cheers:

Make that 2 votes for the AO hex's

[luke]

I'm up for making these but I'm going to have to do a pre-order, any takers or is it gonna be a flop?

[barkingspider]

I'm in for two

[luke]

Pre order here>

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?269636-Offset-Wedge&p=2869455#post2869455

[bowcycle]

no love for the lefties?

And another vote for the AO hex-pattern, if them come in lefty that is.

[dboggs79]

My vote would be to incorporate the AGD lion somehow. I know it's a small space. The hex pattern would screw with the looks of markers that don't already have the hex pattern incorporated into it. Maybe the lion wouldn't be the greatest choice either. Something could be done with that area. Why not just incorporate a logo in there. It wouldn't bother me a bit to rock that with a big ol' Luke's Customs logo. I always wondered why you were fighting this project so much. I didn't realize you were putting the offset in there with it. I'm sure it was a real pain now that I see what you were trying to accomplish. Nice job again Luke!

[luke]

no love for the lefties?



Not likely, it's not an easy change, all new fixtures, all new CADs and programining.

[luke]

I decided what I'm going to do for a logo an the RHS, the left will remain blank. I'll cut one more prototype to test it out this morning. (Unfortunately once these are machined past the first operation (There's four) there is no way put them back in any of the fixtures to engrave)

[BLachance75]

How does it feel holding it in your left hand

[luke]

How does it feel holding it in your left hand

Definitely not a LEFTY setup, worse than a standard wedge..

[luke]

Here is what I'm going with>>

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/LukesCustomsOffsetWedgeLogo1_zps91091472.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/LukesCustomsOffsetWedgeLogo1_zps91091472.jpg.html)

Optional T-Slot>
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/e2a28fb1-aeaa-4a3f-bcac-c23fa134081f_zpsfb5232fb.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/e2a28fb1-aeaa-4a3f-bcac-c23fa134081f_zpsfb5232fb.jpg.html)

[bowcycle]

looks great! Sad there won't be a lefty version.

[luke]

looks great! Sad there won't be a lefty version.

Can I sell 25 of them? If so I'll do them, its just to much work to do any less. ;)

[bowcycle]

Can I sell 25 of them? If so I'll do them, its just to much work to do any less. ;)

put me down for 2 of the lefty version if more people express interest.

[BLachance75]

Can you do one of the T-slot ones and make an adapter so it can be used with a regular ASA. If so what is the extra for that piece.

[blamtro]

Forgive my ignorance but I have never used a dovetail or Tslot ASA. I just have a CP direct mount ASA, can I use this on one of your wedges or do I need to get a new ASA first?

[luke]

This adapter would work with the standard two screw mount ASA and the T-Slot Offset Wedge.

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/TSlotAdapterforstandardASAs_zps0acedf41.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/mtumbleson/media/TSlotAdapterforstandardASAs_zps0acedf41.jpg.html)

The only problem is it would be a hassle to only make a few, not sure if enough could be sold to warrant the hassle. I would need to make at least 10 or 12 of them, that doesn't come close to paying for my time but I would do it so you guys wouldn't be left out.

[luke]

T-Slot wedge adapter pre-order, need to do 10 units.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?269683-Pre-Order-For-T-Slot-Adapter-and-T-Slot-Offset-Wedge&p=2869766#post2869766