The E-Mag Enhancer

[Maghog]

Alright guys, I've been working on this concept since the beginning of the year. In theory, it has to work, but something's missing. I'm not planning on doing any production or anything, but I'd just love to see it work. I'm willing to send this model out to someone who's up for extensive testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LNBm9kYLLc

Sorry about the video quality and the way it's shot, but I couldn't do it any different.
Let's hear what you think.
Dan@Triggernomics

[river031403]

looks great would that also work for rt valves like the one you guys tried a few years back? im willing to test

[zondo]

I guess I'm missing what you are gaining from doing this...

Lighter pull? Shorter pull? More adjustable?

Also, have you seen if this works for the mech side of the mag?

I think if you moved some of the paper towels it would be easier for me to give you a better answer as I can see how the trigger interacts with the marker :D

[Maghog]

Okay let me explain what I imagined happening. The lower(opposing magnets) create the "pull" force by pushing against one another. The upper magnets create the return force. If the pull and return force are equally strong enough, it must at some point cause the back part of the trigger to quiver back and forth.
It's not about a lighter pull, but more about trying to get the e-mode to go crazy. It might even have interesting effects on the Hybrid mode as well.
I'm not really sure what I expect from this, it's just one of those things I wanted to try. I don't have working gun over here so I can't do more than what I've shown. As far as the paper towels go, they don't hide anything that make a difference.
I will have two prototypes of this that I'll send to two different people when they are completely assembled. There will be a few requirements though.

-knowledge and understanding of the e-mag system
-willingness to create a video of the process
-ability to make small modifications
-and most important-want to have fun with this

I have no goal here. I'm not really in the trigger making business anymore. I just think it's an idea that has potential. Maybe one of you brains could think of a way to make it better. I can still modify the second piece considerably so let's have it!
Dan

[RST]

Now this looks very impressive even if I think I did not understand it to 100%

An enhanced reactivity of the trigger (and not the valve) in E mode?

Wenn du möchtest kann ich den Trigger für dich testen, ich arbeite als Tech bei paintball.de in Düsseldorf und besitze eine XMag die ich dafür nehmen kann.



*edit;
Wohoo understood it right.

[Drix]

If it's your idea to make a perpetual motion trigger this will fail, it may however give you a few shots of bounce if your hinge swings feely enough and your magnets are properly oriented. In all though, I'm not sure that this will work as you wish it to.

[MANN]

something you will want to check is that the bottom magnets will not mess with the hes sensor. seems that I remember that sensor being very finicky. It looks like an awesome idea tho.

disclaimer: I have no need or want for an emag trigger.

[hunter100]

You are just lengthening the distance that the return magnet acts upon. If you use a spring analogy, all you have done is stack two springs where previously there was one. Is it going to change the feel of the trigger? Yes. Is it going to change how the trigger behaves? No. You could do the same thing just by reducing the magnet strength, which wouldn't require the extra component.

[Gunga]

Achieved what you're trying to do 10 years ago. A bit different approach and a lot less complicated than your setup. Had to detune it cause it would start going off just from the bounce of walking around while carrying the gun vertically by the battery pack.

[RedderHokes]

Achieved what you're trying to do 10 years ago. A bit different approach and a lot less complicated than your setup. Had to detune it cause it would start going off just from the bounce of walking around while carrying the gun vertically by the battery pack.
Oh my god, it's Gunga. :wow:

[kcombs9]

Achieved what you're trying to do 10 years ago. A bit different approach and a lot less complicated than your setup. Had to detune it cause it would start going off just from the bounce of walking around while carrying the gun vertically by the battery pack.

whats the saying? pic or it didn't happen, or this thread is useless without pictures!

;)

[captian pinky]

Guy did this in Europe I think it was the guy that helpless design the xmags he used a spring Ina cylinder for. The rt pros didn't make more than a protoype

[Bunny]

Anyone interested in testing the Enhancer on an e-mag? I recently moved and organized all of my paintball parts and realized I forgot about the Maghog enhancer trigger I have. I promised Dan I would be able to test it, but I just don't have the time/energy to. I was wondering if any AOers want to help test and videotape the enhancer trigger set-up on an e-mag.

**FOUND A FEW TEST SUBJECTS** :D

Below is a write-up Maghog did about the trigger...



This particular trigger has a small screw connecting the two hinging parts. I initially intended for it to be a lockout screw, turning it into a "normal" E-Mag trigger. I would advise against doing this though, because it's probably going to be to weak to put up with the hammering of the sear rod in mech and hybrid mode. It would work if you just use it in E-mode, but then, you'll be missing out on all the fun!

As it stands, the Enhancer design is extremely finnicky, and very difficult to get dialed in just right. This is why I don't sell it. It's a combination of the right spring, the right pressure input, and a very tender trigger finger. I set up three fully functioning Enhancer back around 2001, just before I left for Germany, and when they ran, they were impeccable...nothing like what you see in the prototype video. They just screamed. The sad thing was that they couldn't just be taken out of one Mag and then put in another. THere wopuld always be issues. I would recommend picking one certain E-Mag, and keeping the trigger for that gun only. I found that trying different types of springs made a difference, and if one felt too stiff, I'd just clip it down bit by bit until it felt right.

Of course, some springs don't work at all. You will really need a lot of time, patience, air, and above all, a good crisp edged sear and bolt. They don't have to be brand new, and I'm not even positive that it makes a difference, but I felt that having a rounded bolt/sear connection led to miscycling more often than with a sharper edged set. The really nice feature on my E-Mag triggers is the adjustable Magnets, and on this Enhancer, both of the Magnets are adjustable, allowing you to dial into some pretty tight trigger pulls in E-mode. I'm really interested to see how this all works out. Alas, I have never tried one of these triggers on an E-Mag before.

Pictures will be posted later on tonight. :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

this is an OLD AS DIRT idea. basically the spring on an RT trigger idea.

[wetwrks]

I am willing to try it out. PMd

[Maghog]

this is an OLD AS DIRT idea. basically the spring on an RT trigger idea.

No one ever said the idea was new punk. I made the first of my enhancer triggers in 1999. (dirt is much older, I know) I had heard of other versions already, and I never claimed to be the first to come up with it. You might think it's uninteresting what with all the new super e-modes guns offer, but the fact remains that a mechanical trigger like this can be unbelievably fun the shoot with.
Dan@Triggernomics

[Bunny]

Thanks for the messages guys! I'll post some pictures of the triggers tonight.

Just remember, you will have to document and post videos :shooting:

[cockerpunk]

No one ever said the idea was new punk. I made the first of my enhancer triggers in 1999. (dirt is much older, I know) I had heard of other versions already, and I never claimed to be the first to come up with it. You might think it's uninteresting what with all the new super e-modes guns offer, but the fact remains that a mechanical trigger like this can be unbelievably fun the shoot with.
Dan@Triggernomics

oh for sure, i had a spring my first RT in about 2001, very fun gun to play with.

with an emag im not sure why you would want it, you can run it in full auto already ...

[knownothingmags]

oh for sure, i had a spring my first RT in about 2001, very fun gun to play with.

with an emag im not sure why you would want it, you can run it in full auto already ...
its what mag hog does, he makes interesting peices with function. this item has yet to be confirmed to function, but the idea is great,

magnets = smoother then springs.

and compared to a few on here who think a dremel looks good, which most of the time it doesnt, his work is done by hand, and ends up with a great smooth feel.

[luke]

this is an OLD AS DIRT idea. basically the spring on an RT trigger idea.

So what?

[hill160881]

Makes me wish I was set up to do some testing as I have an Emag. :(

[athomas]

It won't work unless there are changing forces. Since both magnets have fixed magnetic fields the back trigger will just find equilibrium and stay there if the front trigger is held constant at the firing point. All that happens with the two magnets in that orientation is that the trigger will be stiff at the start and end of the pull but will get slightly easier in the middle of the pull. If the trigger rod is allowed to hit the back of the front trigger, you would have the ultimate rt trigger because your finger wouldn't have as much damping effect. You would only need one set of magnets to achieve it.

[Maghog]

It won't work unless there are changing forces. Since both magnets have fixed magnetic fields the back trigger will just find equilibrium and stay there if the front trigger is held constant at the firing point. All that happens with the two magnets in that orientation is that the trigger will be stiff at the start and end of the pull but will get slightly easier in the middle of the pull. If the trigger rod is allowed to hit the back of the front trigger, you would have the ultimate rt trigger because your finger wouldn't have as much damping effect. You would only need one set of magnets to achieve it.

You are referring to the last model I displayed in the video with the hopes of the magnets creating a perpetual motion effect. That trigger is with someone who also wanted to test it but hasn't gotten to it yet.
The trigger that bunny has is actually a e-mag trigger using a spring to create the enhancer effect. For whoever does test this trigger, you need to try different pressure input along with different springs. Once you find the right combination, it will fly.
Have fun!
Dan

[athomas]

Even with a spring, anything with opposing forces will find equilibrium unless one or both of the forces is changing.

[Maghog]

Even with a spring, anything with opposing forces will find equilibrium unless one or both of the forces is changing.

This is true, and it's also the way the RT valve works. The return force is stronger than the pull force on the trigger. By having a spring in there that lies between the two, the system basically activates itself over and over.
Dan

[athomas]

The RT works because there are changing forces. There is more force pushing back during the return than there is during the pull. That is because of the regulator. If there are a permanent magnet and a constant spring, then the force of each is always there. Unless one of the forces changes (the magnet is an electo-magnet, or the spring is augmented by a cocked ram) then the only changing force is your trigger finger just like any other trigger. You can't get energy from nothing. It needs to come from somewhere. Either is comes from your finger, or it comes from stored energy in a battery or air supply. In the case of a magnet, the magnetism is constant so two opposing or attracting magnets will always push back or attract with the exact same amount of force as the object pushing them together. The spring sits at equilibrium until it is compressed. It only compresses and stores the amount of energy of the force that is compressing it. If a pair of magnets are opposing and pushing against a spring, they will only oppose each other until they get far enough apart so that the force of opposition is equal to the compression force of the spring at that location. At that point you have equilibrium. Unless some other force is turning on and off there will be no back and forth movement. In the case of a trigger; if your finger pushes the trigger the extra force will compress the spring farther by the amount of force your finger exerts. Once you release the trigger, the trigger follow your finger back and will return to equilibrium where the magnet and spring forces are equal.

If the setup is a retro mag, then the magnet and spring will remove the error of your finger from the equation. If it is an emag, then it won't work as expected because there are no external forces acting on it other than your finger.

[Maghog]

This is all true. A trigger like this would do nothing in e-mode, but the e-mag has a mechanical mode, and the real fun could start in hybrid mode. I've never tried one of these triggers on an e-mag, but I'm sure there would be an interesting result.

[knownothingmags]

This is all true. A trigger like this would do nothing in e-mode, but the e-mag has a mechanical mode, and the real fun could start in hybrid mode. I've never tried one of these triggers on an e-mag, but I'm sure there would be an interesting result.
i would love to test and and see how it rips in the different setting.

question,
is there a slot in the back of the trigger? so that the sear doesnt get stuck. or is the trigger not close enough to spec to a real trigger back that it doesnt matter?

[Maghog]

I don't know what you mean by a slow, but the trigger is made pretty close to AGD specs. I'm still waiting for bunny to post pics.

[knownothingmags]

I don't know what you mean by a slow, but the trigger is made pretty close to AGD specs. I'm still waiting for bunny to post pics.
here is the slot i refer too.right below the saftey leg and above the back magnet.:D
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx60/thetoolishere/2012-08-11110501.jpg
when i tested the emag triggers luke made i had to check for sear lockup.
if the slot is in place you have no worries on this lockup.

i know your work is amazing i was just asking.

i still need a gold trigger from you some day, one that looks like it came from hell itself. would be great just gota save the money for it.

[Maghog]

I made them without the slot, can't say if it will lock up or not. I've been out of the business for so long it makes it hard. I actually just had a gun tuned for me and found out that one of my triggers had the magnet installed incorrectly so I'm thinking about quitting making triggers altogether.
Of course, if someone comes along and wants a trigger from hell, I'm still game.
Dan

[knownothingmags]

I made them without the slot, can't say if it will lock up or not. I've been out of the business for so long it makes it hard. I actually just had a gun tuned for me and found out that one of my triggers had the magnet installed incorrectly so I'm thinking about quitting making triggers altogether.
Of course, if someone comes along and wants a trigger from hell, I'm still game.
Dan
i have your email, and when i get the money together i will definently send my info your way.

[athomas]

This is all true. A trigger like this would do nothing in e-mode, but the e-mag has a mechanical mode, and the real fun could start in hybrid mode. I've never tried one of these triggers on an e-mag, but I'm sure there would be an interesting result.I see now. Yes, the extra force provided by the trigger rod would give you huge bounce using your trigger, especially given the electronic triggering.

[SCpoloRicker]

Oh my god, it's Gunga. :wow:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1641/mokwiththis.png

/Hey buddy!