What Markers Changed the Game?

[Aslan]

I was thinking about this recently.

Obviously, if we go back to the "old days", we'll get to the first ever paintball marker, etc...

But since YOU HAVE BEEN PLAYING....what markers have really changed the game (for better or worse)???

For example, since I've been playing (1999), I'd say the battle is between:


Tippmann 98 Custom
Smart Parts Ion
Tippmann A5


And I gotta say the 98C wins....they probably are in the order I have them listed.

I mean, the 98C changed the game by making reliable, CO2 powered, easily upgradeable markers available for right $110 new. That was a huge deal. Before that, you'd have to buy Brass Eagle markers if you wanted to spend any less than $160...and those were mostly junk and hardly upgradeable.

So...what do you guys think? Marker, when you started playing, and why... :cheers:

[Frizzle Fry]

In order...

Nelspot 707

NSG Splatmaster

Sheridan PG/P (and variants)

CCI Phantom

WGP Autococker

Tippmann 68 Special

Sheridan VM68

AGD Automag

F1 Illustrator

Kingman Spyder (and variants)

WDP Angel / PVI Shocker (not gonna fight about dates & patents; they're equally important)

Tippmann M98 (and variants)

Bob Long Intimidator

Airtech/Diablo Matrix

Smart Parts ION

Planet Eclipse Ego

Invert Mini

DLX Luxe

?


Those, in my opinion, were the game changers. I find these to be the most influential because of cost, availability, popularity, functionality, evolutionary leaps in technology, trendsetting, and various other factors that can't be summed up in one word or two. Granted, some are functionally very similar, and most were cloned and cloned again to be released under different names.

These are not my favorite markers, most are actually very low on my list of preferences; they're just the ones that have made very visible and tangible changes to the sport in my paintball career (with the exception of markers 1-4, which were released before I started playing). I realize there were a lot of cool markers out there that aren't on this list, but none so "big" in my eyes when it comes to their effects on the sport.

[Silverback]

For markers that TRULY changed the game (for better or worse)

My list is short:

Line SI Bushmaster - took 007 mods out of the garage and put it into a slick package with a quick change CO2.

CCI Phantom - Ditto but an under cocker

Tippmann 68 Special - First dependable semiauto marker

AGD 68 Automag - DUH, do I REALLY need to explain this one on THIS forum.... ;)

WGP Autococker - Proved that advanced plumbing, could produce a dependable winning package. And due to it's hulking weight and ugliness brought about the aftermarket machine parts and customization market. :rofl:

Smart Parts "Shoe Box" Shocker - First "electro-pneumatic" marker......

[Frizzle Fry]

Smart Parts "Shoe Box" Shocker - First "electro-pneumatic" marker......

I've seen paperwork to state otherwise, but let's call it a tie with the V6.

[dahoeb]

I started playing in 98' so my list looks like....

1) Tippman 98: Rock solid. Low priced, pretty quick (for the time), pretty efficient, ran CO2 great, and is high quality. Perfect starting marker for a great price. The T98 opened the door to lots of people and really made it's mark on the scenario/rec side. 14 Years later and you'll still see them scattered across almost any rec field.

2) Angel: I don't remember the exact year the angel was intro'd, but I know they were really making the rounds at around this time. To a new player like myself with a spyder compact 2000, an Angel was the last gun you wanted to see on the field. I know other electros came out before the Angel, but the only one I heard people talking about was the Angel. The Angel really set the bar for what was expected for the high end $1000+ market, and in the long run, created the competitive conditions for the much cheaper electros we have today

3) Tie: SP Impulse/Bushmaster 2000: I never liked the Impulse, but both of these guns were the first successful "low priced" budget electros and they really established the beach head for that market. They were the poor man's Angel for a mere $400-450. In a way, they helped create the environment that led to the creation of other good budget electros like the Ions and Invert Minis.

4) SP Ion: This gun (for the fields I went to), sortof heralded the end of the mechanical age of paintball. It was a very low priced electro with solid all around performance, eyes, lightweight, a small profile. In the past, newer players would gravitate toward spyders or T98's; after the arrival of the Ion, new players were starting off with tourney level firepower. A few months after this marker was introduced, I saw a very noticable change to how games were being played. There was a lot more spraying and praying going on and not as much movement as I was used to. After this marker was introduced, I've seen the technology sortof stagnant with minor tweaks here and there, but nothing game changing.

It's a short list, but these are the guns that, for me, really altered how the game was approached, marketed and played.

[wetwrks]

Nelspot 007

NSG Splatmaster

Sheridan PG/P (and variants)

Tippmann 68 Special

Sheridan VM68

AGD Automag...Emag...Xmag

Invert Mini

3357 spotmarker

Tippmann SMG-60

the WGP Sniper (as well as the WGP Ranger *pump gun*) and all the nifty aftermarket autococking add-on systems.

Line SI Bushmaster

And yes...these were all commonly available new in the time I have been playing. :D

[cougar20th]

I would say the one I think changed things was the Ion.

Before that a gun that performed like it was expensive thus limitting there use, after the ion everyone coould afford something with that performance.

[Sniper Steve]

I would say the one I think changed things was the Ion.

Before that a gun that performed like it was expensive thus limitting there use, after the ion everyone coould afford something with that performance.


To add to that it also killed the value of every other gun on the market and changed how the entire financial landscape of paintball worked.

[Aslan]

I had the Ion #2 on my list behind the 98C just because the Ion didn't have the longevity of the 98C as was eluded to in another post; you can still see 98Cs EVERYWHERE on rec fields and scenario fields. By adding the response trigger, that marker went from being a step towards an A5 or X7....and became a force in and of itself.

I'll also add that is NOT my list of favorite markers. I HATE Tippmanns....and an Ion owner is one half step higher than a Cocker owner in arrogance and idiocy.

BUT....those markers changed the game like nothing ever has. The flood of participation in the 90s and early 2000s was almost entirely due to the popularity of the 98C and Ion.

I added the A5 because that marker "may" have saved paintball by expanding the mil sim market. Speedball is dieting. It's too expensive, a bad spectator sport, ramped with cheating, and the developmental leagues are chaotic. Rec players that want more are starting to actually "play war" again...and as the Afghan and Iraqi soldiers return....that's only going to increase in popularity. More magazines and vendors are focusing on mil-sim....and the A5 started that where the 98C left off. The speed, the cyclone feed, the cosmetic upgrades...that marker became a standard that other markers that followed would be compared to.

As for my "favorite" markers...I LOVE MAGS!! I don't think there is a better made marker on the planet. The technology and amazing performance...all packed into that valve...it's just a work of art. Cockers aren't just ugly....they are 200 moving parts...one away from breaking down. The mag can be thrown out of a tree and still have above average performance. I wish the Tac One would have made the Mag more of a player in the mil sim market...but it just couldn't compete with Tippmann's cost ratio. :(

[Aslan]

To add to that it also killed the value of every other gun on the market and changed how the entire financial landscape of paintball worked.

I actually LOVE this because I could have never afforded a Mag, or Matrix, or Minion if it wasn't for this. I'd still be shooting a Spyder.

[Ando]

Tippmann 68 Special

Spyder/Autococker/Automag (good old days)

Angel/Shocker

Tippmann 98

ION

Nothing revolutionary has come out since I would say but higher BPS and shooting modes.

[Frizzle Fry]

Nothing revolutionary has come out since I would say but higher BPS and shooting modes.

Agreed.

The extra stuff on my list was added for factors like being most widely available (Catalogs and Big-Box stores all stock Spyder, then Tippmann), having an enormous following with allegiance and owners pride battles (Angel vs Shocker, Timmy vs Angel, DM vs Ego, etc), inspiring widespread design changes and trends (NXT/SFT die, LUXE shows up now there are tons of high-end low-profile BOB'ed spoolies), and inspiring clones and imitations (F1 clones, VM clones, etc), and being the first mass marketed paintball-as-sport markers (PGP and Splatty). Also, Phantoms for being one of the first factory customizable mass market Nelson clones and the only Nelson clone to truly survive from the good old days. And Inverts for providing an all-metal low-end electro that isn't a sear tripper and features "high-end" features like macroless design, BOB, and industry standard threading and soft parts all around.

[fierymartel]

2) Angel: I don't remember the exact year the angel was intro'd, but I know they were really making the rounds at around this time. To a new player like myself with a spyder compact 2000, an Angel was the last gun you wanted to see on the field. I know other electros came out before the Angel, but the only one I heard people talking about was the Angel. The Angel really set the bar for what was expected for the high end $1000+ market, and in the long run, created the competitive conditions for the much cheaper electros we have today
My first marker was an automag. Man that was really something over the 68 specials and stingrays. This was back in 1994your and I get remember advertisements for an angel back then. I thought it was sovereign that was making them not sure. Definetly the first electro I remember. I embraced the elect
tos as it seems paint pri.ces dropped as well

[Frizzle Fry]

My first marker was an automag. Man that was really something over the 68 specials and stingrays. This was back in 1994your and I get remember advertisements for an angel back then. I thought it was sovereign that was making them not sure. Definetly the first electro I remember. I embraced the elect
tos as it seems paint pri.ces dropped as well

The V6 was shooting while the C9000 was still on paper at PneuVentures. The Shocker beat the Angel to the US market and consumers. The production Angel with the LED board was introduced to the US using BE as a distributor and being sold as the 1455 Angel Semi-Auto. There were quite a few full color ads with real high quality photographs in mags and pro shops in late '96, early '97. I'd say it was the only ad I DIDN'T see in grainy black and white, ever, unless it was a small retailer ad in the back pages. WDP took over US distribution quickly and changed the model over a few years to include a less finicky regulator, and eventually a crackpipe with traditional threading as well as a few other functional upgrades.

I owned the original, but sadly I modified the crap out of it in my garage and then sold it. I now only have a late '97 model that I picked up second hand. I will never forget the day I showed up at the field with the BE-distributed marker... Some guy had been making the rounds with a potentially home-brew semi-electronic autococker "thing" and the Angel was so much more clean and perfect.

[cougar20th]

To add to that it also killed the value of every other gun on the market and changed how the entire financial landscape of paintball worked.

I loved that part. Alteast the first half. Cant believe I forgot about that. I went on a very serious & expensive buying spree when the prices tanked thank to the Ion. Loved watching prices get cut in half or more on guns I wanted.

[Old School 626]

Quick 2 cents,

IN the beginning there was the Nelspot and Splatmaster.

Then the age of Snipers and Bushmaster +clones.

Then the Autococker and Automag (The Tippmann 68 special was a gas hog that only ran on liquid and broke paint so it did not change the game IMO other than getting to light up people when the bottle ran down and the sear would no longer catch it added nothing).

Next we had more blowbacks join the fray, Illustrators, VM68 and SI Promasters.

Then there was the Angel...

<took a break here>

Came back to Electros and you all know what happened there ...... F the Ion BTW.

[skipdogg]

The Automag put ROF on the map. It also religated pumps to a nitch market instead of them being mainstream like they were prior to the automag.

[bound for glory]

i'd add the carter comp. gun and the grey ghost.

[Hobbez]

I can really only think of two that really had any effect on the game itself. And even then its not really specific guns themselves, more a change in type.

When semis appeared on my local fields, how we all played changed. The game itself changed. Much less sneaking, hiding, and stealth and a lot more movement and shooting. In my little corner of central Maine, games were getting shorter and more action packed. This was a very good time for the average player in my area.

And then when the electros started to show on the field. The game changed again. In my area, it was the start of dark days. Angels flooded the fields just as soon as the ads started running in APG. High ROF and bonus balling became an every game thing. Teenagers with electros started overshooting folks to the point of injuries and the field owners wouldnt stop it because they bought 3-4 cases a day of $150 a case proball. This was a great day for owners, because 4 guys with electros would buy more paint than the 20 usuals that showed up every sunday. Its good thing they did, because us 20 regulars got sick of it and built a series of outlaw fields we rotated to each sunday from then on out.

So, now that I've rambled like an old man on a bus bench, let me just say. The semi changed the game (VM-68s mostly in my area) and electros changed the game (mostly angels in my area). I really can't think of anything else that changed paintball like that except professional play. But thats a rant for another morning post.

[athomas]

The original nelspot based markers were the start. Almost all original pump markers were derivatives of this design.

The quality of construction and success of the Line SI Bushmaster made it a favorite for tournament teams and pushed other manufacturers to follow suit. For that reason, I think it deserves acknowledgement in the category of game changers. I know the phantom also came at around the same time and had a lot of support, but the Bushmaster hit the market slightly ahead of it and garnished most of the fame due to its use by the top tournament teams. It was that fame that pushed other manufactures and changed the game.

Glenn Palmers Hurricane deserves mention. It was the first really successful pneumatic semiautomatic paintball gun. The autococker almost deserves mention. It is the semi-auto marker that most people know from the early semi-auto years. But, the autococker is only a modified version of the original Bud Orr Sniper with added pneumatics. Guess what? The pneumatic design was a copy of those done by Glenn Palmer. For that reason, I think that Palmers guns deserve mention as ones that changed the game.

The Automag is another early semi-auto marker that changed the game. It was so much faster than any other semi on the market when it came out, that it took over as the marker of choice at most of the tournament series. It was the gun that started the rate of fire arms race. If it had been introduced with a level 10 bolt system at that time, I doubt anyone today would even know what an autococker was.

The Spyder was a game changer because it introduced a reliable low cost semi-auto marker to the masses. The Spyder was based on the common stack tubed blow-back design. It wasn't a high performance gun, but it satisfied a market for casual users that allowed them to play with semi-auto markers at a price often less than that of a pump marker.

The Shocker was a game changer as it introduced electronic control to semi-auto markers. This started a whole new arms race because it allowed operators to fire guns faster than they could pull the trigger without actually firing fully automatic, which was illegal in most tournaments.

The Angel deserved mention because it introduced quality construction for electronic semi-auto markers. It was the first really fast electronic marker and set the bar that others tried to match, although the high price kept it as a high end gun that only serious players could afford. Even though people used other markers, they really wanted the Angel.

The Ion deserves mention because it, like the Spyder, introduced a low cost electronic marker to the masses and forced other manufacturers to lower their price point to compete.

There are other nice markers out there that have been around for a long time and are well known. It could be argued that they are game changers, but most are copies of other designs and didn't really influence or change the sport of paintball.

[OPBN]

I really like threads like this. I have only been seriuosly around paintball for a few years and find the history very interesting. I always knew that peple often times replaced their AC pnues with Palmers, but didnt realize that Palmers actually introduced them if I am getting the above post correct.

[Carnage reigns]

I really like threads like this. I have only been seriuosly around paintball for a few years and find the history very interesting. I always knew that peple often times replaced their AC pnues with Palmers, but didnt realize that Palmers actually introduced them if I am getting the above post correct.

I tend to agree. These thread give me some prospective. What part of Ohio are you shooting in sir? I don't think I have EVER seen another mag on the field unless our field owner plays.

[hunter100]

Blow back semi-autos. These are the lifeblood of the rental market. No rentals=no fields=no paintball. You can argue all you want about tournament guns, but cheap reliable semi auto markers have been the only thing that keeps fields in business.

[OPBN]

I tend to agree. These thread give me some prospective. What part of Ohio are you shooting in sir? I don't think I have EVER seen another mag on the field unless our field owner plays.
I am outside of Lima Ohio which sits between Dayton and Toledo.

[Carnage reigns]

I am outside of Lima Ohio which sits between Dayton and Toledo.

I know where that's at. A little 2 far north. I'm by cincy.

[Carnage reigns]

I am outside of Lima Ohio which sits between Dayton and Toledo.

I know where that's at. A little 2 far north. I'm by cincy.

[bound for glory]

carter comp>line si bushmaster
colin comp(aka grey ghost) dito
if you have to ask or google, you were'nt there...

[athomas]

Blow back semi-autos. These are the lifeblood of the rental market. No rentals=no fields=no paintball. You can argue all you want about tournament guns, but cheap reliable semi auto markers have been the only thing that keeps fields in business.Absolutely! But the need for reliable semis for rentals was driven by development of fast guns for tournament use. Many of these tournament guns were used by rental players and were out of their price range for the majority. This meant that the majority of the players couldn't compete with the firepower of a few of the walk-on players until the low cost blowback markers were introduced and got into the rental armory.

The innovations developed for high end equipment often end up in the designs for the lower end equipment. We see these innovations more often in the lower end equipment and most often associate it with them. We all want the Ferrari but often settle for the Camaro.

[bound for glory]

i owned a '75 camaro ;)

[Aslan]

Quick 2 cents,

(The Tippmann 68 special was a gas hog that only ran on liquid and broke paint so it did not change the game IMO other than getting to light up people when the bottle ran down and the sear would no longer catch it added nothing).

...... F the Ion BTW.

If we expanded the topic to include all paintball items/actions...then I'd have to add:


Brass Eagle- Ya hate them because they were so blatently cheap…but how many players playing today would there be if it not for the Talon, Tiger Shark, Stingray, and Raptor?? Not to mention all those cheap masks, paint, squeegies, elbows, etc...
Thermal Lenses: Back in the day, the worst part of paintball wasn't getting hit, it was your goggles fogging up…which they would all eventually do no matter what anti-fog/dishwasher detergent you wiped on them.
Smart Parts suing AGD: I don't have all the history, most of us Mag lovers perfer to just pretend it never existed…and hate till the cows come home…but the bottom line is that had Smart Parts not stopped the X-Mag…I gotta think AGD quality would have lured many players…and AGD would still be a profitable giant.
If we're talking about mags…the Level 10 takes the cake. The Shoebox has a chance, but not if it stays $550… But the Level 10…that made Mags shootable at high ROF without chopping and without eyes…that's complete genius and was an influx of life to Mag owners everywhere.

[Aslan]

I'm still torn on how speedball/X-ball has affected the sport overall.

A part of me thinks rate of fire and air fields just completely changed paintball from a fun game in the woods into a "sport" where those who could run and slide and shoot 30+bps...and AFFORD the equipment, paint, practice, etc...pushed us rec ballers to the side...laughing at us for our Spyders and Tippmanns. In doing so, they attacked the base of the pyramid and the entire industry started to crumble.

On the other hand, if paintball is ever going to be mainstream, it has to have a constant flow of interest...and it has to have the AGG teenagers pushing for faster markers and hoppers and better paint. And pushing for high school teams and semi-pro/pro development. If it wasn't for the speedball guys, we wouldn't have the quality of paint we do now...everybody would still be shooting Brass Eagle, PMI, or Zap with the rich kids shooting old Marbs.

So Speedball/Airball...jury is still out.

I think FPO was a "negative" as it became popular. It made fields profitable, which was a good thing; but it drove up the prices to the point that players started retracting from fields and avoiding them. I played a LOT of Outback/Outlaw paintball where players REFUSED to go to fields...they couldn't justify the extra $20 a case for paint and $15 to play...and having to play with noobs and aug jerks. So they bought reasonably priced paint, a large tank of CO2 for $1 fills...and they all just gathered at Outback/Outlaw fields.

[hunter100]

Just a guess, but I'd say 95% of paintball players have never played x-ball or know what it is. I'd also guess that 80% of paintball players have NEVER bought paint anywhere but at a professional field.

[going_home]

Gen E Matrix.


;)

[Aslan]

Just a guess, but I'd say 95% of paintball players have never played x-ball or know what it is. I'd also guess that 80% of paintball players have NEVER bought paint anywhere but at a professional field.

And WOW you'd be wrong. I'm not sure about X-Ball...you may be right on that one. But paint sales and players playing rec ball on their on or nearby land...MUCH percentage than that. If I had to guess...I'd say rec field paint sales make up 45%...65% TOPS.

BYOP is the first thing I look for in a field...and MANY do the same thing.

[SeeK]

And WOW you'd be wrong. I'm not sure about X-Ball...you may be right on that one. But paint sales and players playing rec ball on their on or nearby land...MUCH percentage than that. If I had to guess...I'd say rec field paint sales make up 45%...65% TOPS.

BYOP is the first thing I look for in a field...and MANY do the same thing.

First off, I believe you would need to differentiate between commercial fields (which was probably intended) and professional fields (we all know there are too few of these).

The vast majority of the players probably only go out 1 or 2 times a year. So they don't know any other fields other than the one their friend brought them. Or if you are a parent, go to the most convenient one.

I would say that BYOP would only be an option for the largest operators since they have a stable customer base to make enough money off of field and air fees.

[bbotts77]

I would say that BYOP would only be an option for the largest operators since they have a stable customer base to make enough money off of field and air fees.
I find that it is the smaller fields that are more willing to do BYOP. They typically charge an extra $10-20 on admission for BYOP, since they aren't making any money off of paint. The larger fields are usually more strict about paint and rules in general, which I actually prefer.

[Justus]

Don't forget about outlaw play. That's got to be a significant portion of the paintball market as well.

And I'm fine with FPO so long as its reasonably priced and is good quality paint. I know what prices are on paint for distributors and dealers, and a FPO field that has a large customer base doesn't need to gouge the players. You can do it 2 ways - jack up the price and sell to a small amount of customers, or set a reasonable price and sell to a lot of customers. The volume would make up the difference as far as total profit goes, but it depends on what amount of work the field owner wants to put in and what level of goodwill they want to foster.

I actually prefer FPO when it's done right. That way I'm not getting hit with cheapo junk paint that stains or is dangerous (Monster Balls)

[OPBN]

Nearly every field I play at is FPO. I don't mind it so much as long as they are fair. We have one field that we went to only once due to costs. Not only were they charging a $25 field fee, they were charging like $60-70 for paint and additional fees for all day air. Actually, just looked it up and not sure if they changed it, but currently, they are charging $25 for entry and $89 for a case of paint. ADA is included. At $115 and a 2.5 hour drive to play rec ball, we only went the one time. I can partially understand these costs for a scenario game with tons of refs, props etc, but not for a day of rec play. We havent been back since.

[Spiritchaser]

Here's another question: what do people see as potential future game changers?

I'd say

1 . a truly low cost walkable mech (probably not high quality but simple enough to be relatively reliable anyway.) Basically what the enmey might evolve into given a year or two

2. On a vastly more hypothetical note: Anything that improves precision and accuracy. This is probably new paint, but it's probably also a new system to fire it. I know there are a few impractical first takes on this. I don't know if anything does, or even can ever work

[uv_halo]

I started in the 1989 and I bought the Bushmaster Deluxe that I have to this day. I will look at the question from the recball / woodsball side since that is what I've always preferred to play.

When the OP asks 'what markers changed the game?', I take that to mean which markers have actually changed how recball / woodsball is played.

I get how a lot of folks cite the new technological innovations but, their associated costs often keep their appearance on the recball / woodsball field to a minimum. The others find ways to work around them and a balance is at least temporarily maintained. I distinctly remember the old APG adds that field questions like "How can I deal with that semi-auto on the other team when I'm shooting a pump?" Answer: "Team up".

I believe that the 'game change' occurs when the new technology is proliferated to the majority. I believe the following guns are responsible for changing recball / woodsball:

Kingman Spyder - First Semi-Auto under $250
Ion - First electropneumatic (with eyes) under $250

Popular sales of these markers drove down the prices of other markers with comparable capabilities and the end result being is that the majority of players ended up with the capability and thus tactics like "Team up" aren't needed as much or, at all. However, this shouldn't be confused with technical innovation. Companies like AGD, Dye, PE, etc induce a trickle down of technology that at first, impacts the professional / competitive circuits and then the recreational community.

[OPBN]

2. On a vastly more hypothetical note: Anything that improves precision and accuracy. This is probably new paint, but it's probably also a new system to fire it. I know there are a few impractical first takes on this. I don't know if anything does, or even can ever work
This has arguabley already occurred. First strike rounds have been around for a few years now and finally beginning to make a dent in the market. Dye and Spyder are now both offering markers that will switch between the FSR and regular paint. Both are relatively new, so I haven't heard how well they are being received, but time will tell.

[Spiritchaser]

At some point I may actually see these things, but for now the price per shot is so high that their effectiveness is almost unimportant. Something to watch though...

[OPBN]

At some point I may actually see these things, but for now the price per shot is so high that their effectiveness is almost unimportant. Something to watch though...

So you're only accepting systems that you think are worrthy? You said "Anything that improves precision and accuracy." These would be anything and while the price is high now, if they become more mainstream, I can see pricing coming down to more reasonable levels. Will we ever see FSR's at the same price level as normal paint? Doubtful, but just because you don't like the cost of them, you can't dismiss their use as having a potential impact on paintball. As it is, they have already impacted paintball as at least two companies have specifically made markers to suppor their use. This is a HUGE step to general acceptance. If you're looking for some magical system that is going to take round gel filled paintballs and turn them into sniper rounds, it simply isnt possible. It has been proven time and time again. I would argue, that we have essentially peaked as far as the accuracy with standard paint is concerned.

[GoatBoy]

For markers that TRULY changed the game (for better or worse)

My list is short:

Line SI Bushmaster - took 007 mods out of the garage and put it into a slick package with a quick change CO2.

CCI Phantom - Ditto but an under cocker

Tippmann 68 Special - First dependable semiauto marker

AGD 68 Automag - DUH, do I REALLY need to explain this one on THIS forum.... ;)

WGP Autococker - Proved that advanced plumbing, could produce a dependable winning package. And due to it's hulking weight and ugliness brought about the aftermarket machine parts and customization market. :rofl:

Smart Parts "Shoe Box" Shocker - First "electro-pneumatic" marker......



Excellent list.

Guys, if you're going to pretend to answer the question, give exactly why the marker changed the game.

Just spewing a mindless list is... mindless.

[blackdeath1k]

I played my first games renting in 93. Everything in my area was pump. Until a vm68 showed up at the field. Man playing against that changed our tactics. We all slowly got prolites to compete with the VM. A spyder or 2 showed up. But the rugged use didn't compare to the prolite. Then some of us went to mags. And others to cockers by the end of 94. There really wasn't another change here until the angel. The shocker may have existed. But it was big. Ugly. And not real reliable. The angel showed what potential electro had in the industry. The rt came out and agd showed a mech could keep up with the angel. But our agitator and shreader hoppers couldn't begin to keep up with the reactive trigger of the rt. So in my area the biggest gun game changesrs were....

Vm68 changed people from pump to semi. And a more shoot first and aim second play.

Prolite and spyders. Gave a mid priced long lasting semi auto. Spyders could be upgraded with all kinds of springs and valves to up the rof. Lighten trigger pull. And minimalize shoot down. The prolite was just rugged.

Automag/cocker. Bumped up ROF and style of play to more of what we call speedball. Cockers could be tuned even more if the player took the time. Or turned in to an expensive pile of junk. Mags were fast and reliable and last forever.
Angels just flat showed what electronics could do for the gun.

Intimidators and impulses. These I am adding because they put the idea of electronics that the angel showed to be out there in the hands of every 12 year old at my field by 2000-2001. And let them piss away multiple cases of paint in a day I might add.

[Spiritchaser]

while the price is high now, if they become more mainstream, I can see pricing coming down to more reasonable levels. I think if the price reaches more reasonable levels then first strike could change the game (provided it works robustly enough) Ive read annecdotes that its more accurate, but also fussier. i wouldn't ever expect that the price woul hit standard paintball costs, but it's going to have to come down a lot to become more popular. Is the potential there? I've never shot them so all I can do is acknowledge that the possibility exists that they could


you can't dismiss their use as having a potential impact on paintball. no, i dont dismiss that they could have potential impact. if their function leads to acceptance which leads to economies of scale which overcomes the currently impractical cost, then they could potentially have an impact. I do not feel that they have had an impact, and two markers do not strike me as significant to the game as a whole.


If you're looking for some magical system that is going to take round gel filled paintballs and turn them into sniper rounds, it simply isnt possible.

Magic is always so overrated

[GoatBoy]

When I see, "changed the game", I literally interpret it as that. What guns caused enough stir to cause a change to the game? Not "what guns do you ascribe some emotional/sentimental value to?" which is quite frankly a boring, vapid question.

Well, what comprises a game? The rules. The rules are the formation of the game. If you change the rules, you change the game.

For instance, in many places the SMG-60 got banned. I.e. it forced a modification to rules.

The Shocker turbo also forced the rules to start thinking about electro trigger criteria.

Reactive triggers -- Automag RT , etc. -- got banned.

The first semi-auto basically implicitly created the distinction between semi and pump-only style games.

First auto-trigger based gun probably prompted the first ban on auto-trigger per strict stock class rules.

And along those lines, I don't know what was the first gun to use CA, but it was immediately banned.

I fail to see how the Tippmann 98 actually "changed the game". Did the game change to accommodate the 98? Or did it change to exclude the 98? Or perhaps neither? I mean, I personally have a strong emotional reaction to the Tippmann 98, but that is completely independent of any changes to the game it had.

I also do not see “a gun” changing the game format from woods to speedball. People went from woods to speedball because they wanted to, not because their talking gun made them do it.

[blackdeath1k]

When I see, "changed the game", I literally interpret it as that. What guns caused enough stir to cause a change to the game? Not "what guns do you ascribe some emotional/sentimental value to?" which is quite frankly a boring, vapid question.

Well, what comprises a game? The rules. The rules are the formation of the game. If you change the rules, you change the game.

For instance, in many places the SMG-60 got banned. I.e. it forced a modification to rules.

The Shocker turbo also forced the rules to start thinking about electro trigger criteria.

Reactive triggers -- Automag RT , etc. -- got banned.

The first semi-auto basically implicitly created the distinction between semi and pump-only style games.

First auto-trigger based gun probably prompted the first ban on auto-trigger per strict stock class rules.

And along those lines, I don't know what was the first gun to use CA, but it was immediately banned.

I fail to see how the Tippmann 98 actually "changed the game". Did the game change to accommodate the 98? Or did it change to exclude the 98? Or perhaps neither? I mean, I personally have a strong emotional reaction to the Tippmann 98, but that is completely independent of any changes to the game it had.

I also do not see “a gun” changing the game format from woods to speedball. People went from woods to speedball because they wanted to, not because their talking gun made them do it.


How long have you played? I named the guns I named because in my area them were the guns that literally changed how the game was played. The vm68 changed it from pump to semi. The prolite and spyder literally made it a semi auto playing area. The mag and the cocker changed the tactics to more fast shooting and less hide and seek. Shocker/angel showed what electronic gun potential there was to create what kind of game play there is today. And yes. A gun can encourage a speedball style play vs hide and seek. How many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?

[GoatBoy]

How long have you played? I named the guns I named because in my area them were the guns that literally changed how the game was played. The vm68 changed it from pump to semi. The prolite and spyder literally made it a semi auto playing area. The mag and the cocker changed the tactics to more fast shooting and less hide and seek. Shocker/angel showed what electronic gun potential there was to create what kind of game play there is today.

That's fine if you had to adjust your style of play to accommodate.

I'm saying that in order to change the game, you have to actually change the game.



And yes. A gun can encourage a speedball style play vs hide and seek. How many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?

Sorry, I don't own a talking gun, so I receive no encouragement from it. That would really be nice to have a gun that dished out encouragement though.

I don't know how many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun. But I'm pretty sure the answer is at least 1, because I play speedball with a slow ROF gun.

Let me ask the same question of you: how many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?



http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cell_phones.png

[blackdeath1k]

So is this gonna be like your agd posts that you refuse to name or show the focal point of your argument? There you talk about your gun but refuse to post pix. Here your telling me how what I lived through and observed had nothing to do with the guns. But you don't name how long you have been playing. And what you have seen and played with first hand. Magazines in the early 90s talked a lot about how to play against people with semi auto guns. It isn't my imagination. And to say that an easy to obtain high ROF gun doesn't encourage you to shoot more is like the guy that tells me that my 200+ HP sport bike is no more dangerous to a new rider than a sportster.

To answer your question though. Any speedball games I've ever played with people with slow guns ended with them not wanting to play unless they could borrow a faster gun. Them buying a faster gun. Or them not wanting to play speedball at all. This excludes experienced players that do it for there own fun in handycapping themselves.

[GoatBoy]

So is this gonna be like your agd posts that you refuse to name or show the focal point of your argument? There you talk about your gun but refuse to post pix.

I thought the focal point was pretty clear. In order to change the game, you have to actually change the game.

I was pretty clear in the other thread as well, but people have language impediments.



Here your telling me how what I lived through and observed had nothing to do with the guns. But you don't name how long you have been playing. And what you have seen and played with first hand. Magazines in the early 90s talked a lot about how to play against people with semi auto guns. It isn't my imagination. And to say that an easy to obtain high ROF gun doesn't encourage you to shoot more is like the guy that tells me that my 200+ HP sport bike is no more dangerous to a new rider than a sportster.

Because "how long I've been playing" is irrelevant. Either what I say makes sense on its own, or it doesn't. It's quite frankly weird to be "pulling creds".

In all seriousness, here's the other side: I've seen other people blame speedball for the paintball arms race, not the other way around.

How do you reconcile the two viewpoints?



To answer your question though. Any speedball games I've ever played with people with slow guns ended with them not wanting to play unless they could borrow a faster gun. Them buying a faster gun. Or them not wanting to play speedball at all. This excludes experienced players that do it for there own fun in handycapping themselves.

Actually, that wasn't my question, that was your question. And you didn't actually answer it. So let me repeat your question:

How many people play speedball with a slow ROF gun?

Your entertaining anecdotes do bring up an interesting point though. Paintball does seem to differ from locality to locality, possibly field to field, so some people's history and perceptions may differ. I have no problem believing that EVERY speedball game you've ever played with anyone with a slow gun was completely un-fun for them and wound up leaving a foul taste in their mouth. I believe you completely.

[blackdeath1k]

I didnt say totally unfun for anyone. But from hear on out I'm done feeding the troll. Because you apparently never want to show your credibility to any topic. You just want to argue.

[Nobody]

Tippmann SMG60 & 68: just because

Palmer pneumatics: took a decent pump and made it the most customizable tournament gun for nearly 10 years. Bud didn't make them, but he certainly tried to put his name on them.

WDP Angel: put a gun in the hands of a walkon that could fire as fast as a regular tournament player.

68 Automag: the fastest gun, and showed that you can think outside the box.

Airstarr Nova: the grand daddy of the spool valve/gun. you can't have any spool valve if this never worked.

SP Shocker Turbo: the cheater that became the standard.

ICD B2K: showed that the stack tubed electro-pneumatic gun can work

CCM pumps: you can make something that was dead, make it again, sell if for a higher price and still get people to think they are the greater than what has come before, even though they are the same guns.

[Coralis]

I'm going to go slightly off target here , but when I first started playing most players were using 12 grams and rock and cock pgp's . The two things that changed the game to me the most were the advent of "constant air' ie larger capacity CO2 bottles and then the Compressed air bottles of today and the advent of "gravity feed" which allowed the use of hoppers .