Tac One: stammering paint-blender

[SpyderBoy]

Hey guys! Today was my first paintball outing of the spring season and my trusty Tac One let me down! Actually, I probably let my Tac One down by stuffing it in a duffel bag at the end of the fall season and forgetting about it until now...

Anyhow, I put three drops of oil in the Xvalve and aired her up, fired 20 or so shots off to work the kinks out, attached a full Q-pod and was ready to go. I took a few shots with paint just for good measure and immediately blended a few paintballs! And to make matters worse the Tac One would fire intermittently, sometime not resetting far enough after a shot to allow me to fire again. I would have to flick the trigger quickly to get it to reset or just de-gas and air it back up.

When I attempted to take the Xvalve out to clean and inspect it, I couldn't get it to release from the body... Upon closer inspection I realized that the on/off was extended and was catching on the body preventing me from pulling the valve out. I've never had that problem before. I thought that after degassing, a single trigger pull would reset the on/off pushing it flush so that it shouldn't catch like that...

When I got home I stripped the gun down and cleaned the Xvalve up, oiled and reassembled it. The same resetting problem was present. I tried changing the tension of the field strip screw and adjusting how far forward or back the valve was when I tightened the screw but that didn't seem to have much of an effect.

I think these are two different issues but please speak up and point me in the right direction.

My setup is a warp left Tac One with Xvalve and ULT. I am using the gold spring. I have an 1100psi ninja SHP reg on a 70/4500 tank.

[luke]

When I attempted to take the Xvalve out to clean and inspect it, I couldn't get it to release from the body... Upon closer inspection I realized that the on/off was extended and was catching on the body preventing me from pulling the valve out.

Are you running trigger stops on your trigger?

[OPBN]

I would also check the distance on the trigger pin. Should be business cards distance from the back of the trigger when aired up.

[SpyderBoy]

Are you running trigger stops on your trigger?
Nope. Just a standard Intelliframe with stock AGD blade trigger.

I would also check the distance on the trigger pin. Should be business cards distance from the back of the trigger when aired up.
Ok. I'll check that. *EDIT* I checked that. The distance from the trigger to the bottom of the pin varies from about a credit card's thickness to a 16th of an inch or so... What would cause the distance to change so much?

[athomas]

The level 10 bolt setup should prevent chops no matter what. Are the balls getting chopped or are they breaking as they get shoved into the barrel?

What are the condition of the paintballs? How big/small are they? Are the balls pushing past the detents?

It sounds like you are getting bolt stick as well. You should probably give the body area and powertube area a good cleaning and retune your level 10. Make sure you remove all of the powertube shims when you do your tuning.

[SpyderBoy]

The level 10 bolt setup should prevent chops no matter what. Are the balls getting chopped or are they breaking as they get shoved into the barrel?

What are the condition of the paintballs? How big/small are they? Are the balls pushing past the detents?

It sounds like you are getting bolt stick as well. You should probably give the body area and powertube area a good cleaning and retune your level 10. Make sure you remove all of the powertube shims when you do your tuning.
I'm not sure... I experienced breaks with both my Whoosh and Fibur barrels. Both using liberally sized ss freak inserts. At least one of the breaks occurred right at the breech since there was paint in the detent and into the feedneck. I only have a single detent so maybe the Q-loader is pushing past the detent sometimes?

The paintballs are 6-month old Fyre paint that appears fine to visual inspection... no dimples, sweat or breaks in the bag...

As far as retuning... Hate to sound like a noob... But I am when it comes to tuning. My understanding is that I need to remove the powertube shims (thanks for the hint!), turn down the velocity all the way and then slowly start turning up the velocity until the gun starts to cycle. Then with paint check the velocity. Then raise the velocity about 20fps and that should be the sweet spot with that spring? Correct? If the velocity is too low do I just crank it up or do I move to a stiffer spring?

Once it is tuned with the right spring then add shims until the bolt fails to return and then remove 1 or two shims?

Thanks for the help Athomas. You should get paid by AGD for all the support you give!! :clap:

[OPBN]

Did you check your detents? I kept breaking paint once and realized the ball in my detent had gotten spit out and the spring was just shredding paint.

[SpyderBoy]

Did you check your detents? I kept breaking paint once and realized the ball in my detent had gotten spit out and the spring was just shredding paint.
Good call. I did check my detent and it appears intact. It had paint in it though. I cleaned it out and it works fine.

[athomas]

I'm not sure... I experienced breaks with both my Whoosh and Fibur barrels. Both using liberally sized ss freak inserts. At least one of the breaks occurred right at the breech since there was paint in the detent and into the feedneck. I only have a single detent so maybe the Q-loader is pushing past the detent sometimes?

The paintballs are 6-month old Fyre paint that appears fine to visual inspection... no dimples, sweat or breaks in the bag...

As far as retuning... Hate to sound like a noob... But I am when it comes to tuning. My understanding is that I need to remove the powertube shims (thanks for the hint!), turn down the velocity all the way and then slowly start turning up the velocity until the gun starts to cycle. Then with paint check the velocity. Then raise the velocity about 20fps and that should be the sweet spot with that spring? Correct? If the velocity is too low do I just crank it up or do I move to a stiffer spring?

Once it is tuned with the right spring then add shims until the bolt fails to return and then remove 1 or two shims?

Thanks for the help Athomas. You should get paid by AGD for all the support you give!! :clap:You are correct in your tuning assumptions. If the velocity is too low, you can turn it up a bit. If it is very low, then go to a stiffer spring. You want to use the stiffest spring that you can get away with and still operate at the desired velocity (20fps above lowest cycle velocity). Don't bother adding shims back into the system. They usually don't help anything except in extreme cases. Those extreme cases include a long distance between where the bolt sits ready to fire and where the bolt vent hole is exposed. The shims shorten that distance. The bolt will pretty much always move far enough to vent air in all cases anyway, so shims are never needed.

If the Qloader is pushing past the detents, it could be partially to blame. This could happen if the paint is very small, or the detent is weak and/or worn.

You can test the hardness of the paint, by doing the drop test. Hold the paint in your hand at shoulder height and drop it onto a really hard surface such as concrete. Pick it up and repeat. If the paint breaks in the first couple of drops, then it is super brittle. The more drops it takes, the less brittle it is. It is a good gauge as to the brittleness of the paint. I believe the average paint runs about 6 to 12 drops. So, less than 6 and it is easy to break, and more than 12 you are shooting rubber bullets.

[SpyderBoy]

You are correct in your tuning assumptions. If the velocity is too low, you can turn it up a bit. If it is very low, then go to a stiffer spring. You want to use the stiffest spring that you can get away with and still operate at the desired velocity (20fps above lowest cycle velocity). Don't bother adding shims back into the system. They usually don't help anything except in extreme cases. Those extreme cases include a long distance between where the bolt sits ready to fire and where the bolt vent hole is exposed. The shims shorten that distance. The bolt will pretty much always move far enough to vent air in all cases anyway, so shims are never needed.

If the Qloader is pushing past the detents, it could be partially to blame. This could happen if the paint is very small, or the detent is weak and/or worn.

You can test the hardness of the paint, by doing the drop test. Hold the paint in your hand at shoulder height and drop it onto a really hard surface such as concrete. Pick it up and repeat. If the paint breaks in the first couple of drops, then it is super brittle. The more drops it takes, the less brittle it is. It is a good gauge as to the brittleness of the paint. I believe the average paint runs about 6 to 12 drops. So, less than 6 and it is easy to break, and more than 12 you are shooting rubber bullets.
Ok. I just went through the tuning procedure after removing the one shim that I had in the power tube. I backed the velocity adjuster off until it stopped resetting and then screwed it forward until it reset the of/off. At that point it would cycle but not consistently. I crono'ed and it was about 280fps. Then I cranked up the velocity so that it cycled consistently and tested velocity again. Now it was 320fps... and I'm using the gold spring... doesn't give me much room to adjust. What can I do to get the velocity back down? On the topic of the level 10 however... I don't know that I've ever actually noticed the level 10 prevent a chop... how do you know it has activated?

I tested the paint for brittleness. It broke consistently on the second drop... Not good! So I've got to get some new paint. I think I'll get a box of the new Gator Black to try out. :)

Interestingly, since I have cleaned the gun up and re-tuned I have not had a break... Of course I'm hand feeding it and not using the Q-loader so that is not exactly conclusive.

[Henchman]

Are you sure the problem isn't the Qloader.
Try a regular hopper.
Also, as someone said. Make sure the detent isn't screwed in too far.
I would take the whole thing apart, and oil it all nicely.

[athomas]

At that point it would cycle but not consistently. I crono'ed and it was about 280fps. Then I cranked up the velocity so that it cycled consistently and tested velocity again. Now it was 320fps... and I'm using the gold spring... doesn't give me much room to adjust. What can I do to get the velocity back down? On the topic of the level 10 however... I don't know that I've ever actually noticed the level 10 prevent a chop... how do you know it has activated?The short gold spring should get you in the 250fps or lower range. It sounds like you are using a barrel length/porting combination that is horribly inefficient. Also, if the gun is starting to cycle at 280 but doesn't cycle consistently until 320, then perhaps your level 10 is not tuned for optimum performance. A carrier that is too tight can cause you to require a higher chamber pressure to move the bolt, which will result in a higher shot velocity. Are you sure you are using the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak for the white powertube carrier oring you are using?

You would know if the level 10 prevented a chop. When you pulled the trigger, the gun would cough and then reset.

[SpyderBoy]

Are you sure the problem isn't the Qloader.
Try a regular hopper.
Also, as someone said. Make sure the detent isn't screwed in too far.
I would take the whole thing apart, and oil it all nicely.
My Tac One is warp left so regular hopper isn't much of an option. ;) I have cleaned the entire gun and valve out, wiped every part down, oiled them and put it back together.


The short gold spring should get you in the 250fps or lower range. It sounds like you are using a barrel length/porting combination that is horribly inefficient. Also, if the gun is starting to cycle at 280 but doesn't cycle consistently until 320, then perhaps your level 10 is not tuned for optimum performance. A carrier that is too tight can cause you to require a higher chamber pressure to move the bolt, which will result in a higher shot velocity. Are you sure you are using the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak for the white powertube carrier oring you are using?

You would know if the level 10 prevented a chop. When you pulled the trigger, the gun would cough and then reset.
Ok... I'll check the carrier out next. Perhaps I have it too tight. I will admit that the efficiency of my marker is pretty bad... Of course since I don't pay for air it has never bothered me. :p Once again thanks so much for the help Athomas (and all you Automaggots!) I love the AO paintball community! :headbang:

[Henchman]

Definitely try the largest carrier that doesn't leak. But make sure you have no shims in it when testing,so you know for sure you are not leaking from the carrier.

[SpyderBoy]

Definitely try the largest carrier that doesn't leak. But make sure you have no shims in it when testing,so you know for sure you are not leaking from the carrier.
Will do! As soon as I get some more air that is. :) Thanks for your help Henchman.

[SpyderBoy]

I got some more air and tore my Xvalve apart again planning to try a larger carrier... only to find out that of the 4 carriers that came with my Tac One (sizes 0, .5, 1, and 1.5), I'm already using the largest one. :eek:

First, is it normal to only get 4 carriers with a brand new Tac One? Second, does anyone have spares they could send my way? I need sizes 2 through 4 to get a complete set judging by the AGD carrier size diagram.

[Henchman]

So, with no shims, and the largest carrier, you have no air leaks? So you possibly need a bigger one?

[sQuidvision]

carriers can be ordered direct from AGD for a few bucks a piece

[SpyderBoy]

Ok. Guess I'll have to call them up since I can't find them on their online store.

[athomas]

You won't need any sizes larger than 2.0 and 2.5.

Try a different oring. It might give you the size difference you need for now.

[SpyderBoy]

You won't need any sizes larger than 2.0 and 2.5.

Try a different oring. It might give you the size difference you need for now.
Ok. So when I got home this afternoon I took apart my Xvalve yet again and swapped out the carrier o-ring to see if a different one would work better... And then it started leaking rapidly between the two halves of the xvalve where the internal reg is...

So I tore it apart on the back end this time... Gooey brown greasy mess. I cleaned everything out till it was spotless and then greased it all with Hater Sauce (is that ok for Mags?) and put it back together... No leak now... Ok, time to try out that new carrier o-ring.

I backed off the velocity adjuster and gassed it up. Screwed in the velocity adjuster until the on/off actuated and then dry fired a few times to move things around. Seems to fire a little smoother than before. Loaded a few paintballs and fired them across my chrono. 233, 240, 235. So I cranked up the pressure and only got to 280 before it started to vent out the back.

Ok. So there seems to be less resistance on the o-ring. Good. Now I change the spring to the red one and put things back together. The lowest velocity I can get it to fire at is 320 and then I break a paintball in the breach again! Now the velocity is sporadic and the on/off won't reset consistently.

Sooo... I'm going to clean the marker again to get all the paint out of it and go back to the gold spring. I hope a new batch of paint will solve my breaking issues, but the other cycling issues are driving me nuts. I'm ordering an o-ring kit and carriers tonight and paint as well.

Any of you have this much trouble with your mags? :( I suppose 3 years is about right for a rebuild though isn't it?

[Henchman]

I have bought all my mags used.
If I can't get themto work 100%, I send them in.
My time on the field is too precious to waste tinkering.

[OPBN]

You won't need any sizes larger than 2.0 and 2.5.

Try a different oring. It might give you the size difference you need for now.I have two seperate valves that are currently running on 1's. They seem to leak with anything larger.

[SpyderBoy]

I have bought all my mags used.
If I can't get themto work 100%, I send them in.
My time on the field is too precious to waste tinkering.
Where do you send them in to? Tuna? Or AGD?

[SpyderBoy]

I have two seperate valves that are currently running on 1's. They seem to leak with anything larger.
Even with two different o-rings I can't get a #2 carrier to leak... Or cycle well.

[Henchman]

Where do you send them in to? Tuna? Or AGD?
I send them to AGD.
$65 for a full service job.

[athomas]

...So I tore it apart on the back end this time... Gooey brown greasy mess. I cleaned everything out till it was spotless and then greased it all with Hater Sauce (is that ok for Mags?) and put it back together... No leak now... Ok, time to try out that new carrier o-ring.

I backed off the velocity adjuster and gassed it up. Screwed in the velocity adjuster until the on/off actuated and then dry fired a few times to move things around. Seems to fire a little smoother than before. Loaded a few paintballs and fired them across my chrono. 233, 240, 235. So I cranked up the pressure and only got to 280 before it started to vent out the back.

Ok. So there seems to be less resistance on the o-ring. Good. Now I change the spring to the red one and put things back together. The lowest velocity I can get it to fire at is 320 and then I break a paintball in the breach again! Now the velocity is sporadic and the on/off won't reset consistently.

Sooo... I'm going to clean the marker again to get all the paint out of it and go back to the gold spring. I hope a new batch of paint will solve my breaking issues, but the other cycling issues are driving me nuts. I'm ordering an o-ring kit and carriers tonight and paint as well....?The mags like light synthetic oil best. All you want to do is wet the orings and nothing more. The excess will blow off. If the grease is too thick, it impedes the orings and the excess doesn't blow off. The problem with grease is that it will dry and thicken up over time, so you will need to constantly clean your valve internals.

The valve will vent out the back at the higher level 10 operating pressures if it is using one of the original level 7 regulator piston assemblies. You will need to upgrade the piston assembly if this is the case.

If you just barely got the mag to consistently cycle and fire, then chances are that the paintball did not get chopped, but broke when it got pushed into the barrel.

It also sounds like you still have bolt stick issues. This is more evident with the stiffer springs.

[SpyderBoy]

The mags like light synthetic oil best. All you want to do is wet the orings and nothing more. The excess will blow off. If the grease is too thick, it impedes the orings and the excess doesn't blow off. The problem with grease is that it will dry and thicken up over time, so you will need to constantly clean your valve internals.

The valve will vent out the back at the higher level 10 operating pressures if it is using one of the original level 7 regulator piston assemblies. You will need to upgrade the piston assembly if this is the case.

If you just barely got the mag to consistently cycle and fire, then chances are that the paintball did not get chopped, but broke when it got pushed into the barrel.

It also sounds like you still have bolt stick issues. This is more evident with the stiffer springs.
Should I get rid of the grease in the reg assembly completely then and just use gold cup oil? I only used the Hater Sauce in the reg area.

Ok. My Xvalve (as part of my Tac One) was purchased new from Tuna about 3-4 years ago. Would that be new enough to have the newer regulator piston? I did notice some scarring at the back of the piston around the vent hole and wondered if that was normal.

As of now I am waiting to get the carriers and o-ring kit ordered from Tuna so I can do more testing. I'll check back in once I get a chance to work on it more. Thanks for giving me hope that I'll figure this thing out.

[athomas]

Gold cup oil is ideal for the valve regulator. Only the spring pack needs to be greased, and its only because grease sticks better to keep it from rusting.

All X-valves come with the newer high pressure regulator piston assembly.

[SpyderBoy]

Ok. So I received the carriers and o-ring kit from Tuna and started the tuning process again with a new o-ring.

Starting at a size 2.5 carrier and going down I had to go down to a 1.5 to keep it from leaking down the barrel. With the 1.5 carrier it fires fairly consistently and can RT sporadically. I can sweet spot it and get 5-7 shot bursts before I have to flick the trigger to reset the on/off again. I'm using the ULT. Is it the ULT on/off sticking or the bolt? How can I tell?

Also, the efficiency is TERRIBLE! I got about 2-300 shots on a full 68/4500 tank dry-firing... Is that normal?

I'm starting to get frustrated... Should I just go through the whole marker and replace all the o-rings and try tuning again?

[Henchman]

Ok. So I received the carriers and o-ring kit from Tuna and started the tuning process again with a new o-ring.

Starting at a size 2.5 carrier and going down I had to go down to a 1.5 to keep it from leaking down the barrel. With the 1.5 carrier it fires fairly consistently and can RT sporadically. I can sweet spot it and get 5-7 shot bursts before I have to flick the trigger to reset the on/off again. I'm using the ULT. Is it the ULT on/off sticking or the bolt? How can I tell?

Also, the efficiency is TERRIBLE! I got about 2-300 shots on a full 68/4500 tank dry-firing... Is that normal?

I'm starting to get frustrated... Should I just go through the whole marker and replace all the o-rings and try tuning again?
Air your gun up and stick it in a tub of water, to see if there ar any air leaks anywhere, you should eb getting at least 800-900 shots from your tank.
Then, open up the valve and give it a thorough cleaning, and oiling, everywhere.

[SpyderBoy]

I've submerged the gun while aired up and no leaks. Also, I've completely stripped and cleaned and oiled everything in the valve. The reg side and the on/off and power tube side. I've cleaned the on/off and power tube side twice. My o-rings are about 5 years old though except the carrier o-ring which I just replaced.

[athomas]

Ok. So I received the carriers and o-ring kit from Tuna and started the tuning process again with a new o-ring.

Starting at a size 2.5 carrier and going down I had to go down to a 1.5 to keep it from leaking down the barrel. With the 1.5 carrier it fires fairly consistently and can RT sporadically. I can sweet spot it and get 5-7 shot bursts before I have to flick the trigger to reset the on/off again. I'm using the ULT. Is it the ULT on/off sticking or the bolt? How can I tell?

Also, the efficiency is TERRIBLE! I got about 2-300 shots on a full 68/4500 tank dry-firing... Is that normal?

I'm starting to get frustrated... Should I just go through the whole marker and replace all the o-rings and try tuning again?The ULT can cause some bolt stick issues if too many shims are installed. Take one out and try it.

Dry firing a mag will cause terrible efficiency because the chamber completely empties on each shot. Normally, there is residual pressure left in the chamber after a shot, so the next charge only has to top up the pressure.

[SpyderBoy]

The ULT can cause some bolt stick issues if too many shims are installed. Take one out and try it.

Dry firing a mag will cause terrible efficiency because the chamber completely empties on each shot. Normally, there is residual pressure left in the chamber after a shot, so the next charge only has to top up the pressure.
Ok. That is comforting. I'll try removing a shim in the ULT.

Removed a shim from the ULT and the cycle improved quite a bit. It's too late to check velocities now so I'll report back tomorrow. Thanks for all the help!