Integrated Rail Gripframe?

[TimmyJay]

Anyone attempt making something like this? Sorry for the poor design skills.... Eliminating the rail and dropping the sear into the grip frame.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb262/ddntim/Timsraillessautomaggripframe.jpg

[OPBN]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236717&page=1&pp=30

[TimmyJay]

Thanks for the link...Looks like it lost steam...

[OPBN]

It did.

[steve_81]

Well let's get it going again.

[OPBN]

It has been bandied about a recently. I think part of the problem is people wanted integrated ASAs as well. Then you got into whether they wanted vert, forward angled or back angled.

[Carnage reigns]

Talk to Xmagterror. He said he's looking to make projects that the community is looking for.

[knownothingmags]

it would be nice if the weight was compensated you would ule all the way through on this since it has the suppor of grip frame as well.

neet idea.
make it luke ill buy one if it was rethunk alittle bit.

but waiting years for a preorder will definently be out of my realm of waiting.:D

i like it. heck then you only need 3 major parts for a AGD marker now uni body and uni frame valve.

it would be nice if this came to the light.

[OPBN]

Smexy. Would look awesome with Xmags new MM body.....

Would be nice to see the frame tapped for an LPR.

[steve_81]

I'd be in for one.

[Fatalis]

I'd be in for one.

+ 1 :cheers:

[TimmyJay]

Glad I re-started something. Too bad it would be another part I couldn't justify ordering.

[cougar20th]

The idea gets kicked around every couple years. Unfortunatly there is not a simple solution. Ive tryed. the easiest would be to just blend a rail to the top of a frame. But that wouldnt be worth the hassle or the extra machining cost. That is the killer with something like this the machining cost. Your starting with a larger block of material & cutting most of it away.

[Carnage reigns]

The idea gets kicked around every couple years. Unfortunatly there is not a simple solution. Ive tryed. the easiest would be to just blend a rail to the top of a frame. But that wouldnt be worth the hassle or the extra machining cost. That is the killer with something like this the machining cost. Your starting with a larger block of material & cutting most of it away.

How much would it cost per frame for an order of 50? Is it over $200? That seems to be a fare amount.

[TimmyJay]

If you have to go through that much work and material then tack a body onto this as well.

Body/Rail/Frame = 1 piece

It would justify paying more $$$ for and probably not have much more material then the rail and frame together.

[cougar20th]

If you have to go through that much work and material then tack a body onto this as well.

Body/Rail/Frame = 1 piece

It would justify paying more $$$ for and probably not have much more material then the rail and frame together.

Doing that has many issues, the first is that it can not be machined. So it cant be built.

Lets say it can be built just for this posts purpuse. You probably double or tripple the raw material cost and do the same for the machine time. Around my area its gonna cost you around 100/hr for machine time if not more now. I havent checked this year. So between the raw material & the milling you have made a very very expensive frame/rail/body. But it doesnt matter because it cant be machined. You would have to use a process like laser metal sintering and im not sure the durability of that and I have no clue how you would get parts into it.

Carnage reigns: The short answer. For a finished complete anodized frame I would expect it would be over that. Machine time to remove the extra material is the killer.

[TimmyJay]

I'm not a machinist, but it doesn't seem impossible. The body may need to take on extra milling to reach the nooks of the sear location.

Just trying to think outside the box. It's always fun to see new things develop.

[OPBN]

As far as I know it would be impossible to mill the sear slot on an integrated body/rail/frame combo. Im not a machinist, but I have seen some milling machines in action and not sure if they are capable of machining inside a body at a 90* angle. While I really like the idea of a integrated rail/frame, I have a feeling it would be cost prohibitive. Not sure why though since some SP makers seems to have it and they werent ridiculously priced. Probably has to do with running 100k of them and running 100 of them.

[cougar20th]

I'm not a machinist, but it doesn't seem impossible. The body may need to take on extra milling to reach the nooks of the sear location.

Just trying to think outside the box. It's always fun to see new things develop.

You are right it may not be impossible. Because if it really needs to be done someone will come up with a way to do it. It wont be by conventional tooling thus the cost is exponentially higher.

Ive thought of many ways to get it done including edm. Just not worth the costs.

[captian pinky]

missed something. what was impossible?

[cougar20th]

the impossible is a rail,grip,body combo

[Patron God of Pirates]

I'm not sure how I feel about a uni-frame/rail. When I first got into mags the only difference between most of them was the powder coat. Fast forward 15 years and Mags are the most customizable markers out there. Sure this would only add to the huge variety of Mags out there, but in and of itself it would actually be less custom....

Just my 2 cents

[Flatliner333]

^^^ That ^^^

[captian pinky]

I don't see why miilling the frame rail combo would be impossible.

[TimmyJay]

The impossible discussion is based on a one piece body, rail, gripframe combo.

gripframe & rail combo is possible, just being quoted as too expensive to be practical.

[captian pinky]

easy way to fix the problem is to do removable trigger guard.

[splat15k]

I'm not sure how I feel about a uni-frame/rail. When I first got into mags the only difference between most of them was the powder coat. Fast forward 15 years and Mags are the most customizable markers out there. Sure this would only add to the huge variety of Mags out there, but in and of itself it would actually be less custom....

Just my 2 cents

So using this logic, the Shockwave is "less custom" because it has a unibody design. I don't think that really holds true.

You were going in right direction in the first place:

this would only add to the huge variety of Mags out there

That's what it's all about in the end: more options! :cheers:

[Patron God of Pirates]

We don't disagree. From a personal preference standpoint I would rather see products that created more options rather than fewer. Just like the Shockwave, I wouldn't buy it because it would make my marker less unique. That and the Shockwave looks like the "flompy mud wave" to me.

[BigEvil]

Something 'we' have been working on for over a year.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/4The_Family/magnus/MagnusE45AIntergrated.jpg

Yes, its an electro. Yes, the front grip comes off and you can replace it with anything that can be mounted to a mag rail.

It will be altered to fit P8nt's new Universal Board when they are available. Im not building anything else with UTBs since they are going away.

I also have to find someone to make the damn thing.

[OPBN]

^^^ Would look really nice with a capped valve and foregrip mounted HPR.....In for a penny, in for a pound.

[Ando]

The cap valve is retarded when there's aluminum backs you can put on which makes the weight savings nil. Less even when you start adding all the BS regulator etc... to the front of the marker.

[OPBN]

Having issues with photobucket, but here are some numbers:

Setup 1: Xvalve, ULE body, Chimera frame, UL rail, RTP vert ASA, Bike grip = 24.50oz.

Setup 2: Xvalve with reg removed, Cap, Chimera Frame, UL rail, RTP vert ASA, AKA Sidewinder reg = 20.95oz.

AKA sidewinders are good regs right?

[BigEvil]

Having issues with photobucket, but here are some numbers:

Setup 1: Xvalve, ULE body, Chimera frame, UL rail, RTP vert ASA, Bike grip = 24.50oz.

Setup 2: Xvalve with reg removed, Cap, Chimera Frame, UL rail, RTP vert ASA, AKA Sidewinder reg = 20.95oz.

AKA sidewinders are good regs right?


You do know that by 'capping' the back of an Xvalve, you are basically turning it into an A.I.R. valve?

[OPBN]

You do know that by 'capping' the back of an Xvalve, you are basically turning it into an A.I.R. valve?

OK? So I lose the RT effect? If its electro that shouldnt be a problem right?

[Ando]

I don't need to have a vert asa, bike grip, 2 macro fitting and extra line to shot that mag.

Factor that into your oz for oz comparison...

Really????

We really fighting over oz? :spit_take

I really don't see how a RT valve would work without the back :confused:

[OPBN]

I don't need to have a vert asa, bike grip and 2 macro fitting and extra line to shot that mag.

Factor that into your oz for oz comparison...

Really????

We really fighting over oz? :spit_take


I really don't see how a RT valve would work without the back


Not sure why you're getting so hated over this. The picture showed a foregrip that I assuemed is aluminum with two macro fittings. I was simply trying to do a fair comparison. Sure, you could run a DW carbon fiber forerip with an Xvalve and it would be lighter than a capped valve setup with a reg, but personally I like gas thrus. Figured since I have to have a foregrip anyways, it might as well double for something.

Capping an X is actually harder apparently, its why I am trying to find someone willing to mill a few classic style valve bodies from aluminum. No one seems to be able to give me a number so its probably never going to happen.

[Ando]

No one's getting hated :confused:

I'm just showing how a cap valve has no advantage over a non capped one. Weight or function wise...

[BigEvil]

The forgrip is removable and just there to make the picture purdy :)

[OPBN]

Guess I took you calling me retarded the wrong way. Not sure why, but I just really like the idea of capped valve. Looks cleaner IMO.

[Ando]

Guess I took you calling me retarded the wrong way. Not sure why, but I just really like the idea of capped valve. Looks cleaner IMO.

Lol..You'll know when I call you (personally) retarded. ;)

The Idea of it is cool as in "another way to mod a mag" but using it as a wight saver or better functioning. I would have to call shenanigans!!!

[Flatliner333]

Very nice :hail: , is that a removable breach with options like an XMag or does it spin like the Micro Mag breach. I dont gues it will have BB eyes...who needs um anyways.

[BigEvil]

Very nice :hail: , is that a removable breach with options like an XMag or does it spin like the Micro Mag breach. I dont gues it will have BB eyes...who needs um anyways.


No, its just the way the software renders the transition from round to square, and it is on a weird angle so it looks funny.

[Carnage reigns]

Lol..You'll know when I call you (personally) retarded. ;)

Thle Idea of it is cool as in "another way to mod a mag" but using it as a weight saver or better functioning. I would have to call shenanigans!!!

I would think it would save some weight. (Reg on X-valve + Foregrip) - Foregrip mounted reg = Weight Savings.

[GoatBoy]

Some of us don't need the RT.

On the other hand, I like having a CO2 tolerant regulator up front.

Capping the back would potentially shorten the backside of the gun up, for those of us who tend to hold our guns up to our faces.

And I think the weight savings would be pretty decent considering an aluminum cap by itself should weigh much less than a full aluminum housing which includes 2 steel springs, velocity adjuster, and a regulator nut.


I mean I can go measure the back half of an X-valve reg if you really don't believe it.

[OPBN]

I would think it would save some weight. (Reg on X-valve + Foregrip) - Foregrip mounted reg = Weight Savings.
If you look at my example above, it does. Granted, it's only 3.5 oz, but it's actually a 14.5% weight reduction. Personally, I would love to shave off 14.5% of my weght. ;)

[splat15k]

Even IF the weight didn't change, the weight distribution would be different, which may be an attractive benefit for those who don't want to use a stainless barrel to achieve the balance they want.

[Ando]

I would think it would save some weight. (Reg on X-valve + Foregrip) - Foregrip mounted reg = Weight Savings.
Again...I don't need a foregrip to shoot it though. Lets play devil's advocate here. Lets do this on a classic valve and all I do is change out the back reg with the back half of a Air American Vigilante Regulator. Now where's your wight savings? The back half of that AA Reg is probably the same weight as the cap alone.



Capping the back would potentially shorten the backside of the gun up, for those of us who tend to hold our guns up to our faces.
Hmmm...Don't we....already do that? Does the inch you save make it any better to aim down the barrel? Hell, with that logic your shorting yourself. That's one whole inch further way you have between the marker to your opponent :rolleyes:


And I think the weight savings would be pretty decent considering an aluminum cap by itself should weigh much less than a full aluminum housing which includes 2 steel springs, velocity adjuster, and a regulator nut.
So you removed the back aluminum housing and are now installing another aluminum housing with everything you just mentioned and placing it on the front of the marker :confused: Oh...and lets not forget that cap you just installed too.


If you look at my example above, it does. Granted, it's only 3.5 oz

Congratulations, you saved everyone 3 1/4 slices of cheese (weight equivalent). Hell lets round up to 4 slices just to be on the safe heavy side (everyone run to your fridge and feel the weight savings) and for what...to bring in a whole bunch of variable and issues no one's going to be able to help you with? Send a setup like that to AGD or Tuna. They would toss it back in the box and tell you "you can't fix stupid". Seriously, NO ONE will be able to tell the difference between that setup and a regular one.

Like I said before, the cool factor is there but that's about it.

[luke]

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/4The_Family/magnus/MagnusE45AIntergrated.jpg


That’s a good looking marker!
The ASA looks sweet too, is that something currently on the market or is that a new design?
Is the MM body shorter than stock?

[Carnage reigns]

Again...I don't need a foregrip to shoot it though. Lets play devil's advocate here. Lets do this on a classic valve and all I do is change out the back reg with the back half of a Air American Vigilante Regulator. Now where's your wight savings? The back half of that AA Reg is probably the same weight as the cap alone.

Congratulations, you saved everyone 3 1/4 slices of cheese (weight equivalent). Hell lets round up to 4 slices just to be on the safe heavy side (everyone run to your fridge and feel the weight savings) and for what...to bring in a whole bunch of variable and issues no one's going to be able to help you with? Send a setup like that to AGD or Tuna. They would toss it back in the box and tell you "you can't fix stupid". Seriously, NO ONE will be able to tell the difference between that setup and a regular one.

Like I said before, the cool factor is there but that's about it.

I use a X-Valve and a foregrip so I can realize some weight savings that maybe you can't. Maybe this is not a mod that fits you but you can't deny a weight savings exist for people who use a setup different than yours.

[GoatBoy]

Again...I don't need a foregrip to shoot it though. Lets play devil's advocate here. Lets do this on a classic valve and all I do is change out the back reg with the back half of a Air American Vigilante Regulator. Now where's your wight savings? The back half of that AA Reg is probably the same weight as the cap alone.

The AA Vigilante back stlll has a adjustment screw and the brass piston in order for it to seal up, so there's still more weight than necessary. Cap would have neither.



Hmmm...Don't we....already do that? Does the inch you save make it any better to aim down the barrel? Hell, with that logic your shorting yourself. That's one whole inch further way you have between the marker to your opponent :rolleyes:

Not on a really short marker setup. With a 13ci (or possibly 7oz CO2) on a no-drop, the back half of the reg occasionally hits my mask/camera. The extra 1" on the back really would actually make the difference for me. And that's with an Intelliframe; a grip frame with less sweep would be worse. And worse on top of that would be a Y-grip or a Z-grip, both of which push the reg back even further.

So that 1" on the back is not negligible in some setups.




So you removed the back aluminum housing and are now installing another aluminum housing with everything you just mentioned and placing it on the front of the marker :confused: Oh...and lets not forget that cap you just installed too.

Right, but what I install on the front will be CO2 tolerant. There's no reason to pay the tax for all the meat in the back twice if what I want is on the front, and the back is just dead weight. I'd rather spend the weight budget on something else.



Congratulations, you saved everyone 3 1/4 slices of cheese (weight equivalent). Hell lets round up to 4 slices just to be on the safe heavy side (everyone run to your fridge and feel the weight savings) and for what...to bring in a whole bunch of variable and issues no one's going to be able to help you with? Send a setup like that to AGD or Tuna. They would toss it back in the box and tell you "you can't fix stupid". Seriously, NO ONE will be able to tell the difference between that setup and a regular one.

I'll happily take that weight difference. I already am running a gutted AIR with an aluminum AA back on my gun, so I obviously will go to such lengths. I've never sent anything to AGD or Tuna, so there's no need to invoke them. The only person that needs to tell the difference between the two is me, and I'm saying I would be able to tell the difference, both in weight and length.

Your same argument can be made for all individual weight savings. Individually they're not much, but it's the aggregate that winds up making the difference.

[BigEvil]

That’s a good looking marker!
The ASA looks sweet too, is that something currently on the market or is that a new design?
Is the MM body shorter than stock?


ASA is something that's out there... I forget who makes it.

MM is full length ULE body. The angle is weird and it looks short since its on a RT sorta-length set up. The grip is also a bit long. (and removable). The grip was based off of the ones HSW used to make for the SHocker and Impulse back in the day. They look like crap, but feel great.

[TimmyJay]

Lets move the cap'd valve comments over to this thread which seems to be ignored....

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=261126

[OPBN]

Just for reference, the cap that I currently have that is for a classic valve weighs in at .45 oz.

As for foregrips, every single Mag I have has a foregrip. Who the heck runs a Mag without a foregrip?

[TimmyJay]

I added a poll. I thought it would be a good idea. If you agree, then vote to voice your opinion and I am sure someone will be willing to mill it! :D

My thought on ebay was to redistribute the winnings back to those that didn't win/bid, but put up the investment. Or put the "winning" funds toward another project idea. It could work as a starter fund to add more variety to this Mag Mag World.

[Ando]

ASA is something that's out there... I forget who makes it
Hyper Sport Works or something along those lines. I've wanted one for my 4x4 since I got it NIB. Think they're called HypAir Fore Grips.

SO NICE!!!
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/isnipeu2/mini%20sly%20halo%20pump/100_2249.jpg


Lets move the cap'd valve comments over to this thread which seems to be ignored....

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=261126
I'm not fighting over a couple of slices of cheese...They can have it with their WINE!!!! :clap: :rofl:

I'm screwing with you OPBN... I <3 U

[luke]

Who makes the ASA?

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii405/mtumbleson/asa.jpg

[Ando]

Who makes the ASA?
ROFL :rofl: My bad :tard:

It's a Check-it Unimount i think

[renie]

Something 'we' have been working on for over a year.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/4The_Family/magnus/MagnusE45AIntergrated.jpg

Yes, its an electro. Yes, the front grip comes off and you can replace it with anything that can be mounted to a mag rail.

It will be altered to fit P8nt's new Universal Board when they are available. Im not building anything else with UTBs since they are going away.

I also have to find someone to make the damn thing.


I can make that for you if u want ;)

[GoatBoy]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/cheez_doing_it_wrong.jpg

[BigEvil]

I can make that for you if u want ;)


I appreciate the offer brother, but I will have to respectfully decline. Since I cannot do this type of CAD work, the couple of plans that I have cost me dearly in one way or another and I plan on being very cautious with whom I share them with.

With the current attitudes in paintball these days, especially here on AO in regards to what is 'public domain' and what is not, I would most likely NEVER use anyone in paintball to make something like this for me. I would be afraid that before I knew it, someone would decide to start either using my drawings or pulling specs from them and start competing with me.

[renie]

I appreciate the offer brother, but I will have to respectfully decline. Since I cannot do this type of CAD work, the couple of plans that I have cost me dearly in one way or another and I plan on being very cautious with whom I share them with.

With the current attitudes in paintball these days, especially here on AO in regards to what is 'public domain' and what is not, I would most likely NEVER use anyone in paintball to make something like this for me. I would be afraid that before I knew it, someone would decide to start either using my drawings or pulling specs from them and start competing with me.

I respect your views Bud, i know where your coming from :)
I personally only share stuff that i create not other peoples :)
if u could see the files i have on my hard drive you'd know what i mean ;)

Nice work by the way :) :) :) :)
cant wait to see it in flesh :)