Since the clock is running... [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

Loguzzzzzz

09-10-2012, 10:27 AM

Someones expressing their appreciation for AO and you wanna belittle them. Yeah thats nice..... :rolleyes:

Ando, before you joined AO, this forum was much friendlier (not just directed at you) as a whole, and looked past negative parts of a post and read deeper into them. Maybe you could try and do the same? Maybe we ALL could try and do the same.

BE, after the things you said on another forum, I'm surprised you would post or even visit AO. :)
Yeah well I feel just as BigEvil does. I still visit this place daily multiple times but I also think that for Tom Kaye to ask the AO Community to fund the store and the other forums hosted along with Automags.org is a bit disingenuous.

Back on Topic.

If AO should go to the wayside I will say that I am grateful to have been a part of this community for the last 8 years. I have made some friends here that will be my friends forever! Had great times paying paintball with them and many others that I have not yet had a chance to talk with and officially "meet"!

I am not worried about not seeing these guys again, we congragate on other sites! We can always use them to coordinate! I am not worried about this database either. I know the guys that have contributed mosst of it anyways and can give them a call if I really need something!

More worried about Bob than about AO.

:cry:^^^ I'm with you on this one!

Flatliner333

09-10-2012, 10:36 AM

BE, after the things you said on another forum, I'm surprised you would post or even visit AO. :)

Yeah well punk doesnt think this sight is relevant anymore or so he "posts" on other forums.

Lohman446

09-10-2012, 01:32 PM

Yeah well I feel just as BigEvil does. I still visit this place daily multiple times but I also think that for Tom Kaye to ask the AO Community to fund the store and the other forums hosted along with Automags.org is a bit disingenuous.

I looked back and do not recall where TK has been less than sincere about what to do with AO. IIRC his first comments involved selling it. Noone has stepped up and offered to buy it. Has TK not been forward from the beginning that such a move will benefit other sights as well? I read through the past and it seemed to me that TK was forward about it and everyone knew what was going on. I think you might have to hunt down a new word for what you think it is because disingenous just does not work by definition.

BigEvil

09-10-2012, 02:34 PM

IIRC his first comments involved selling it. Noone has stepped up and offered to buy it.

Oh no? You know this for fact my friend?

*Pressed for time, will add more later.... BUT

I remember a good friend of mine telling me that he would get customers asking for all sorts of things that he would never want to do. He wouldnt want to piss off a customer by telling them NO, so he would quote some outrageous price.

Just some food for thought.

Loguzzzzzz

09-10-2012, 02:35 PM

I looked back and do not recall where TK has been less than sincere about what to do with AO. IIRC his first comments involved selling it. Noone has stepped up and offered to buy it. Has TK not been forward from the beginning that such a move will benefit other sights as well? I read through the past and it seemed to me that TK was forward about it and everyone knew what was going on. I think you might have to hunt down a new word for what you think it is because disingenous just does not work by definition.

dis·in·gen·u·ous /ˌdɪsɪnˈdʒɛnyuəs/ Show Spelled[dis-in-jen-yoo-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous.

I think the "hypocritically ingenuous" or "insincere" sort of fits but. . . .

OK then how about cheap or possibly unconcerned. I really get the feeling like he doesn't care what FATE AO suffers. I suppose I could be wrong but it took many people offering suggestions before he even set up a place for people to offer up their support funds. That seems like a lack of concern to me.

I still think that his other forums and the AGD store should not fall on the shoulders of the membership. It is my opinion and I am allowed to have it. I am also not alone in this. So be it.

You are certainly enlitled to your opinions. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Lohman446

09-10-2012, 02:42 PM

dis·in·gen·u·ous /ˌdɪsɪnˈdʒɛnyuəs/ Show Spelled[dis-in-jen-yoo-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous.

I think the "hypocritically ingenuous" or "insincere" sort of fits but. . . .

OK then how about cheap or possibly unconcerned. I really get the feeling like he doesn't care what FATE AO suffers. I suppose I could be wrong but it took many people offering suggestions before he even set up a place for people to offer up their support funds. That seems like a lack of concern to me.

I still think that his other forums and the AGD store should not fall on the shoulders of the membership. It is my opinion and I am allowed to have it. I am also not alone in this. So be it.

You are certainly enlitled to your opinions. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

You might be right to some degree about not caring or caring less than $3K worth. For instance I would like to see AO continue even if I do not regularly participate in it. However its not worth $3K to me. I actually had to put a dollar amount on it and did. I would guess that TK has a dollar amount on it as well - and its not $3K.

Lohman446

09-10-2012, 02:46 PM

Oh no? You know this for fact my friend?

*Pressed for time, will add more later.... BUT

I remember a good friend of mine telling me that he would get customers asking for all sorts of things that he would never want to do. He wouldnt want to piss off a customer by telling them NO, so he would quote some outrageous price.

Just some food for thought.

I do not know it for a fact. I have not offered to buy it recently. I have not witnessed it change hands so I am assuming noone made an offer that TK deemed worthwhile.

Spider-TW

09-10-2012, 04:01 PM

OK then how about cheap or possibly unconcerned. I really get the feeling like he doesn't care what FATE AO suffers. I suppose I could be wrong but it took many people offering suggestions before he even set up a place for people to offer up their support funds. That seems like a lack of concern to me.

I know what you mean, but considering the haggling on the subject over the last few years, I can't see faulting him for stepping in late. I'm interested but didn't realize the whole thing had become serious until I saw a post from AGD. Honestly, the most I expected to happen was for someone to start a new forum again.

About the database itself, it's the odd modifications and consensus of opinions that I used to run searches for. Stuff like ULTs in classic valves, LPRs for pneus, EM frames, pie vs. cake, etc.

Flatliner333

09-10-2012, 04:38 PM

I think we can all agree that we dont want AO.org to die. I also believe that the current active members are just as important as the ones who have gone on before us.I dont want people feeling sorry for poor AO because when it comes down to the n*t cuttin I dont think we would allow that to happin if givin a choice.I'm against mergering with any other forum because I think this forum is unique. I personally am not interested mulling through a bunch of other topics to get to what I am interested in and that is Automags and the like minded. That being said I have never been much of a Kool-Aid drinker myself.

Lohman446

09-10-2012, 05:40 PM

I like the kool-aid, at least here.

If TK is willing to lead to keeping AO I will follow his lead. Perhaps there are better ways to do it then the way he is doing it now. Perhaps he has not looked at all the alternatives. However I will trust me to have at least an idea of what he is doing and follow.

Its not so much about AO for me. My presence, or lack of for awhile, speaks louder than anything I can say. Its more if TK thinks it is worth trying this way I will follow. Obvioulsy I will not follow blindly or without restraint - the fact that I did not send thousands of dollars shows that.

Ando

09-10-2012, 07:00 PM

Someones expressing their appreciation for AO and you wanna belittle them. Yeah thats nice..... :rolleyes:

Ando, before you joined AO, this forum was much friendlier

What are you talking about, this is the friendliest forum in all paintball. http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk300/jbonot/k_hint.gif

And FYI...this is my second account here on AO. The other (which I can't remember) was made between '03 and '04. I REMEMBER what AO was apparently you've forgotten and the potential it could have been is anybodies guess. Unfortunately, the sites badly hindered itself from growing. Having to PM admins on other forums to get registered here? Redonkulous!!!

Lastly, before you go "shaming" me. My comment was a joke, if you knew Punkncat (MJ), that man is privy to a lot of WTF moments and drama, his glass is always half full. Trust me when I say this. You'll know when I'm belittling you.

As for this site. I want it to prosper but it's been left to wither away the last 7 or so years...literally. The site could have been so much more then what it is now.

Someone posted this on another site...
AGD is his legacy not Fossils or DB Cooper If this place goes down in the way that everyone is "fearing" then there's nothing left keeping the legacy alive other then old PB cronies and scholars.

Lastly, screw MCB, PBN, TechPB and every other PB forum out there...hell even BEO.

I would rather see this place fall then be assimilated and become someones "honorary" sub forum.

Die with class and be remembered for what you are...The baddest ****ing marker ever!!!

I like the kool-aid, at least here.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk300/jbonot/barman.gif

Tropical Life

09-10-2012, 07:31 PM

$1200.00 and 25 days to go $3000

Who pressed the panic button?

punkncat

09-10-2012, 07:36 PM

Lastly, before you go "shaming" me. My comment was a joke, if you knew Punkncat, that man is privy to a lot of WTF moments and drama, his glass is always half full. Trust me when I say this. You'll know when I'm belittling you.

I had just let the comment go for what it was worth, but this is another story.

If you were living the **** sandwich that I have been a part of the past five years I would love to see you coming on and being all "bright and cheery" for the masses. In addition to issues with my health and life, there have been a great deal going on with my wife and my children as well as friends. Unfortunately I just haven't had a whole lot of happy going on to report about lately. I use the forums to vent, much to several users voiced displeasure. I suggest that if my "drama" is more than you wish to see or deal with, I welcome you to discover the back button, or adding me to an ignore list. My situation is not such that I care to have you poking fun at me.

Thanks.

GoatBoy

09-10-2012, 07:53 PM

And for everyone's edification, that's what sociopathy looks like.

And no, I'm not talking about punkncat. Hope things get better for you.

punkncat

09-10-2012, 08:03 PM

And for everyone's edification, that's what sociopathy looks like.

And no, I'm talking about punkcat. Hope things get better for you.

I really hope you forgot a "not" there....I have never considered myself an Antisocial personality.

We hope things get better too.

BigEvil

09-10-2012, 08:54 PM

I had just let the comment go for what it was worth, but this is another story.

'snip'
Thanks.

Wait, you mean all that stuff is real?

J/K ;)

Ando

09-10-2012, 09:30 PM

I had just let the comment go for what it was worth, but this is another story.

If you were living the **** sandwich that I have been a part of the past five years I would love to see you coming on and being all "bright and cheery" for the masses. In addition to issues with my health and life, there have been a great deal going on with my wife and my children as well as friends. Unfortunately I just haven't had a whole lot of happy going on to report about lately. I use the forums to vent, much to several users voiced displeasure. I suggest that if my "drama" is more than you wish to see or deal with, I welcome you to discover the back button, or adding me to an ignore list. My situation is not such that I care to have you poking fun at me.

Thanks.
Don't get your panties in a bunch...I was just trying to get your goat. I for one enjoy your drama and love that you vent to a bunch of twenty-something's like they're going to get where your coming from.

And for everyone's edification, that's what sociopathy looks like.

And no, I'm not talking about punkcat. Hope things get better for you.
Was that a shot at me? :tard: If so I resemble that remark. :rofl:

going_home

09-10-2012, 09:37 PM

Sumthinwicked

09-10-2012, 09:47 PM

i loive this place its a shame it will go thte wayside

rx2

09-11-2012, 12:47 AM

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?41351-mg-need-your-help-to-save-automags-org&p=323664#post323664

Shot right across the bow Beemer...........

#4

:wow:

Could this be the cocker vs mag wars rekindling ?

I'm kind of glad I missed those messes. I did witness a bit of the MM09 drama, but was otherwise too busy. Still, I do visit on occasion, just in case something useful or interesting pops up in the world of Mags. I admit, it would be a little odd if the site went away.

Lohman446

09-11-2012, 06:34 AM

Don't get your panties in a bunch...I was just trying to get your goat.

Wouldn't that be, by definition, trolling?

Spider-TW

09-11-2012, 08:29 AM

Wouldn't that be, by definition, trolling?

Speaking of trolling, where's behemoth? :p

Ando

09-11-2012, 08:42 AM

Wouldn't that be, by definition, trolling?
More like Oger'ing.

BTAutoMag

09-11-2012, 09:11 AM

wow, we really need a functioning chat room :rolleyes:

TOTShadowCompany

09-11-2012, 11:22 AM

This is why I love AO. Paintballers taking shots at each other and at the end of the day, still can have a drink together afterwards. Sure there have been quirks on the site versus others but the mods here let adults be adults. TK and AGD will always be known in the history of paintball.

I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Could they be competitive in speedball again? Why not? The cap is 13 bps now which is easily attainable with the X Valve. Products like the hyperframe and booyah frame would make mags attain the cap. Obviously AGD would have to make there own trigger frame but the technology is there. Kids are paying $1,000 to $1,500 for markers. Imagine the mag that could be built for that kinda of money? Maybe even for less. I have seen DM and NT markers go down for no apparent reason. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go. Oh I forgot, you might need a battery for the new trigger frame. How awesome would that be to see a team on the psp or nppl win events with mags?

This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!

Fred

09-11-2012, 08:25 PM

I think Shane is still grumpy about the Hamster.

(Incidentally I made efforts to track it down this year, and/or to purchase another, but no luck.)

I'm suddenly feeling insightful...

There's few people that I'd venture to believe know what they're talking about when they say "old AO"... and I have to admit that a lot of my memories are through rose colored glasses. AO's heyday was when I was in college a decade ago, and paintball was my favorite release from the strain... to me it's a bright shining spot that introduced me to some excellent people who knew how to have a good time. Many of them grew into those I consider to be among my closer friends to this day. Its not coming back without some serious sweat and effort and literally global changes in the economy most of us live in... at least for me.

This discussion and the panic I sense around it is comical. Old grudges arising. Bad blood from drama over the years starting to simmer again. The BEO/PBL stuff was hardly the only peak, or the first. Many trolls came and went, and a few of them even became rather upstanding members of the community (RUDZY YOU'RE MY BOY!). Many members have come and gone, too. How many old timers from AO meets do we try to track down every year? Marriages, Careers, Children, Life in general draws us apart.

If TK intends to let the forum database wither and crash, so be it. I won't shed a tear. I have my memories and the friendships still. Those of us that still care to 'ball, have a good time and stir up a little mayhem from time to time won't let it stop us.

AO is not a database. AO is not a forum or chatroom. AO is not drama (debatable :p ). AO is not an idea. AO is not a symbol. AO isn't a collection of Airgun Design Automag Zealots (anymore). AO is not owned by any one person or corporation. AO is not a memory. AO is not the sum of its parts or members.

AO trascended all that into a culture, which won't be forgotten or abandoned to the nether.

AO is dead. Long Live AO.

zondo

09-11-2012, 09:09 PM

This is why I love AO. Paintballers taking shots at each other and at the end of the day, still can have a drink together afterwards.

It's called Tunaball... and it's happening again this summer! :headbang:

rifleman wi

09-11-2012, 10:55 PM

My only question is...

Wheres the Pie?

rifleman wi

09-11-2012, 10:56 PM

possibly make an AO FB Page?

Ando

09-12-2012, 12:18 AM

I would leave that for Tom to do.

knownothingmags

09-12-2012, 12:59 AM

I would leave that for Tom to do.
:rolleyes:

Tropical Life

09-12-2012, 06:39 AM

My only question is...

Wheres the Pie?

NO no NO no NO! DEFINATLEY!

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4421/cakeoa.jpg

Lohman446

09-12-2012, 06:56 AM

I kind of forgot that AO was one of those forums that you should bring friends when you come because of the "social groups". They started off as little jokes but have evolved beyond that.

bbotts77

09-12-2012, 09:20 AM

I think Shane is still grumpy about the Hamster.

(Incidentally I made efforts to track it down this year, and/or to purchase another, but no luck.)

Did you check eBay? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dancing-Hamster-Wall-Street-Money-Penitentiary-Jail-/200532903190?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb0b14516)

GoatBoy

09-12-2012, 01:50 PM

I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Could they be competitive in speedball again? Why not? The cap is 13 bps now which is easily attainable with the X Valve. Products like the hyperframe and booyah frame would make mags attain the cap. Obviously AGD would have to make there own trigger frame but the technology is there. Kids are paying $1,000 to $1,500 for markers. Imagine the mag that could be built for that kinda of money? Maybe even for less. I have seen DM and NT markers go down for no apparent reason. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go. Oh I forgot, you might need a battery for the new trigger frame. How awesome would that be to see a team on the psp or nppl win events with mags?

This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!

Look at all the people who wind up buying BT-4’s or Tippmann-anythings, or any other trashy inferior marker. They should all be AGD customers.

*In fact, everyone in paintball should be an AGD customer.*

The problem is AGD doesn’t want those customers.

Of course, without customers, “There’s no money to be made in paintball.”

Vicious cycle.

BTAutoMag

09-12-2012, 02:32 PM

I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement :dance:

Ando

09-12-2012, 02:56 PM

I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement :dance:
Bhaaa...Classics with agitating hoppers, remote lines and 112 cubic in tanks strapped to the back. Now that would be making a statement and completely piss off the apposing team if you manage to slam them with their $1800 abc...xyz markers. :rofl:

BTAutoMag

09-12-2012, 02:59 PM

wouldnt cost too much to put a team together them :rofl: :rofl:

Dayspring

09-12-2012, 03:30 PM

wouldnt cost too much to put a team together them :rofl: :rofl:

Travel & paint costs...

Keep in mind, I was on an all mag team back in the day (PBX BlackCell) and AGD had the Lions and Pride. Doing it now would be neat though.

Flatliner333

09-12-2012, 03:55 PM

Oh Snap...I think I still have my 20 oz. I could use.
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/patrickmason/OldSkoolBlack.jpg

TOTShadowCompany

09-12-2012, 07:12 PM

UWL is having a 5 man woodsball for cup. It's byop and only $300 for a team with no pro or D1 players on the team. Max is 10 bps. Would be interesting to have a team with just classic mags.

going_home

09-12-2012, 09:46 PM

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?41351-mg-need-your-help-to-save-automags-org&p=323664#post323664

Shot right across the bow Beemer...........

#4

:wow:

Could this be the cocker vs mag wars rekindling ?

Looks like the post belittling one of our fearless mods was deleted.

Appears someone over there has a level head.

;)

rifleman wi

09-12-2012, 11:06 PM

I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement :dance:

+1 but the question is, are there any fields left in SE Wisconsin that are worth a damn?

Tempted

09-13-2012, 05:41 AM

I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go.
This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!

I know I'm a newby here but those are reasons why AGD has lost some business, not a way to get some back. Fact of the matter is the more used Mags there are on the market, the less new Mags will be sold.

One huge reason there has been less new AGD traffic is because of how darn well built their products are. Tippmann make more on their crappy detents that break and blow out the barrel than AGD does on all of their wear items combined. When something never breaks you never have to buy parts to fix it. And because there is so little to go wrong, you're almost never taking a risk in buying a used one so why would you want to pay more for a new one?

When someone says "I'm having problems with my Mag" the answers are always "Put oil in it", "Go to the hardware store and buy some 10 cent O rings" or "replace your spring and sear(which are probably the only things most Mag owners ever buy from AGD)".

Now if AGD brought the Sydarm back there would be some new business. And if they brought the Classic valved Mags back at a low price point, they would pick up pretty much all the Tippmann 98 and BT business. They would probably even pick up a lot of fleet accounts in fields that are replacing old rentals. I know that if I could buy 100 classic valve Automags for the same price as 150 Tippmann 98 Customs then my field would be renting Mags.

Sorry about that drawn out response, its the businessman side of me barking.

BTAutoMag

09-13-2012, 06:57 AM

+1 but the question is, are there any fields left in SE Wisconsin that are worth a damn?

I

LOVE

MY

FIELD

.
.
.

stupid head :(

Ando

09-13-2012, 08:16 AM

Looks like the post belittling one of our fearless mods was deleted.

Appears someone over there has a level head.

;)

Thank GOD they don't have a Beemer over there or their server would probably have blown up by now too...lol. Grown men acting like children and leaving cause they didn't get their way. Pfft.

Give it up to Listessa (Mod on CC). Her and I been BS'in back and forth, she's alright in my book. :hail:

Beemer and I owes her a beer ;)

GoatBoy

09-13-2012, 01:56 PM

Now if AGD brought the Sydarm back there would be some new business.

The return of the Sydarm would probably be more than a decade late, overpriced, and underperforming in light of today's market.

And if they brought the Classic valved Mags back at a low price point, they would pick up pretty much all the Tippmann 98 and BT business. They would probably even pick up a lot of fleet accounts in fields that are replacing old rentals. I know that if I could buy 100 classic valve Automags for the same price as 150 Tippmann 98 Customs then my field would be renting Mags.

AGD has never seemed to care for the customer base at the lower price points. Cost reductions in the design seem to be rare. They happen, but they're rare.

So things have languished, just like this forum's hosting -- on a priced-to-fail basis. Let's face it, $500 for an RTP/Tac One is a really uncomfortable price point to be at right now.

The base mag engine is fine, but everything else in the mag ecosystem deserves a fresh look with an eye for increased functionality, decreased cost, and decreased weight.

Tempted

09-13-2012, 07:40 PM

TOTShadowCompany

09-13-2012, 08:05 PM

So things have languished, just like this forum's hosting -- on a priced-to-fail basis. Let's face it, $500 for an RTP/Tac One is a really uncomfortable price point to be at right now.

The base mag engine is fine, but everything else in the mag ecosystem deserves a fresh look with an eye for increased functionality, decreased cost, and decreased weight.

I would spend $500 on a mag over any $1,000 to $1,500 speedball marker out there. $500 price point is a good market to be in. Make a ULE mag with some sort of eletronic trigger frame and bam. Winner winner. Ok maybe $599 with the new trigger frame.

GoatBoy

09-13-2012, 10:58 PM

If they were able to offer another X valve exchange program, reseal the exchanged valves, package them in a low end body and turn them around for $75 a piece they would stay extremely busy.

Heck that would be a good business to be in for anyone, not just AGD. How many of us would gladly mail in our Classic valves and 100 bucks for an X valve? The exchanger gets the 100 bucks plus another 75 or so when they turn the Classic back around.

Best yet, imagine taking those returned Classic valves and packaging them in stock, open and unlimited class pump packages.

For starters, the X-valve trade in program was classic valve + $225, not $100. In fact, your math is currently hurting me so I'm going to stop here.

I think I asked a long time ago what AGD did with the classic valve trade ins (after having some remorse). I think they were turned to slag or something. Kind of a shame.

I did trade my minimag valve in for an X-valve. And I regret it. I kept the X but soon bought some more classic valves again. Classic valve works just fine for me; a little on the heavy side, but that's fixable.

I do think that a limited paint market is starting to open up. It doesn't necessarily have to be a pump.

I would spend $500 on a mag over any $1,000 to $1,500 speedball marker out there. $500 price point is a good market to be in. Make a ULE mag with some sort of eletronic trigger frame and bam. Winner winner. Ok maybe $599 with the new trigger frame.

I'm sure you would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Not all guns that AGD is competing with are speedball guns, and not all guns, speedball or not, cost $1000-$1500. So it's false in two different ways. Nice.

Here is a painful sample list of the markers that a $500 mechanical RTP/Tac One is in the neighborhood of:

BT TM-15
BT TM-7
Tippmann Crossover
Tippmann Phenom X7
Empire Axe
Invert Mini
Planet Eclipse Etha
Planet Eclipse Etek 3
Dangerous Power Fusion X
Proto Reflex Rail
MacDev Drone
... and many more!

The electro option is a sticky subject; in the meantime, there are other things to look at.

The product is currently just priced to fail.

I love my automags, but refusing to look at this from the perspective of a new (or even experienced) player and understanding the range of choices he has is *not* going to help.

Tempted

09-14-2012, 12:50 AM

Yeah I'm familiar with what the X valve exchange program cost. But looking through the entire valve there isn't more than $20 worth of material cost, they can be sold at $100 and turn a profit. After you consider that you'll have about 2 bucks in soft parts to rebuild the Classic valve there is money to be made there as well.

When companies are failing/dying they need to understand that maintaining their current practices are what led to the collapse. AGD's only true fault is the price they demand. They have excellent customer service and some of the most durable products on the market. But a mechanical marker for $500+ isn't going to sell. Lower the price, increase total quantity sold, make more money than selling few markers at high prices while also getting your markers into the hands of many. After you build a large following, start creeping back up in price. Look at the Honda Civic. Back in the late 80s/early 90s they started selling them for almost nothing but still offering a dead reliable vehicle. Fast forward to today and you can spend $35 grand on one because of its reputation and consumer demand.

Lohman446

09-14-2012, 07:38 AM

AGD's business model was never supposed to be about fighting with WGP, WDP, SP, etc for a larger piece of the pie. Nor was it supposed to be a race to the bottom in price.

TK and Bud Orr reasoned that cooperative efforts between the manufacturers could grow paintball. As the size of the pie increased the amount for each seller would increase and allow room for the growth of the industry as a whole. Think of it as a "nirvana" of business. Yes there is some competition between manufacturers but they are all working together as well to grow the overall market base.

SP's antics made it very clear that the business model was done. Simply building and demonstrating a superior product was not the name of the game any longer - it was about marketting and hype. When that did not work the industry could fall back to fighting over overly broad patents - waisting potential profits in the court

Some people simply do not want to fight those kinds of battles. Look at who has exited paintball and the innovations they brought. If not for Ben Tippman and the pin valve we would not have the tanks we have today. If not for TK and HPA in paintball we would not have the markers we have today. If not for WDP and PneuVentures we would not have the electronic markers of today. The great companies that brought innovation to paintball and SHARED it (at least to some degree) have been drug down by the companies who do not innovate but rely on marketing and hype. Knowing how TK has done things in the past is it any surprise that he does not want to play that game?

Is there money in paintball? Sure there is. But where is it? Its for the companies that are willing to build a product not intended to last and market it heavily. I still remember reading my first Automag manual that talked about the investment in the marker and how it would last for years to come.... The game that would have to be played to make money in paintball today does not look interesting to me nor does it look to be a game that AGD has played in the past.

GoatBoy

09-15-2012, 01:11 PM

That's nice.

Yes, the game changed. And then the game changed again. And now I think the game is changing once more.

Currently, there is only one manufacturer that can make Automags as far as I know, and that’s Airgun Designs. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. And they probably continue to make them at high cost, and sell them at a comparably high price, without any revisions or updates.

You want to talk about sharing? You want to talk about how there’s no profit to be made in paintball?

I say we pry (buy) the Automag IP out of the cold, dead hands of whoever happens to be clutching on to it, release it to the public, and see who wants to start making Automags anew. I think someone would probably be able to pick things up and make a really good gun at a really good price and turn a profit while doing it. Or an individual can just draw up the exact part they want and send it to a 3d printer. Or people can pool together for short runs of stuff they want from a machinist.

That way people like Tempted are free to do what he’s proposing if he really thinks the idea will work.

Lohman446

09-16-2012, 08:31 AM

I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

wixxxman

09-16-2012, 09:13 AM

We are talking about pricing of agd products? And how to attract new members and tell the new generation about agd?LETS HIT THE DRAWING BOARD!!!!! We live in 2012 we landed on mars again.I love the x valve,but we need a new valve. A More efficient valve .so we can use smalller tanks and posably change where the air enters the valve.agd is amazing but a crazy air hog,we have every thing except air efficient valve.I know I will buy one

GoatBoy

09-17-2012, 06:36 PM

I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

What’s your point?

Do you think it’s a bad idea?

Or are you just trying to educate us?

Perhaps both?

Or neither?

What’s your interest here? It’s somewhat hard to understand what your interest is exactly, but reading through your posts, I would say you are distinctly not interested in automag products. You do seem quite interested in making explanations for the status quo, many of which seem to be of an undocumented variety.

So what’s your point?

luke

09-17-2012, 07:02 PM

It's pretty clear to me what he's saying...

Tempted

09-18-2012, 01:28 AM

The goat guy seems to be on a mission.

Tempted

09-18-2012, 01:29 AM

I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

I'm very aware. And at $100 you can make money on the valves after material and overhead.

Shane-O-Mac

09-18-2012, 11:09 AM

I'm very aware. And at $100 you can make money on the valves after material and overhead.

Whoa, where you getting those numbers from?

I dont know if you have dealt with manufacturing a product and selling it, but you are WAY off base, unless your "Profit" is like 1$. To get a price low enough to make a decent profit off, you first have to order at least 1000 or so, then factor in insurance to cover any person who sues you for getting hurt by your product, then your time is NOT free. Also dont forget all the little items you have to have made, and bought, O-rings, on-off pins, reg pistons, etc. Remember that to compete price wise with the other companies, you have the issue of labor, most others are getting stuff made in China or somehwere other than USA where labor costs is so much lower than here, and then you have to ship the product here, with less quality also. No price out a quality USA made gun and what it would cost, and you cannot compete with the other companies on price, no matter how much better your product is. AGD is a niche market for people who dont mind spending more for a higher quality gun.

BTAutoMag

09-18-2012, 11:24 AM

http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg

Lohman446

09-18-2012, 11:30 AM

What’s your point?

Do you think it’s a bad idea?

Or are you just trying to educate us?

Perhaps both?

Or neither?

What’s your interest here? It’s somewhat hard to understand what your interest is exactly, but reading through your posts, I would say you are distinctly not interested in automag products. You do seem quite interested in making explanations for the status quo, many of which seem to be of an undocumented variety.

So what’s your point?

My point is this. A company making money looks incredibly easy from the outside looking in. Actually doing it is an entirely different story. My suggestion is BEFORE you put up a lot of capital on something that looks so simple that you fully consider it and talk to people in the industry or with business experience. When I see people explaining to me how much profit is available in something and then list only material costs it makes me wonder who they intend to hire to do it, manage it, handle payroll issues, proper business licenses, insurance (there is a big list, you get the point).

I don't care what you guys do with your money. My suggestion is before you start dumping money into it that you have an operational plan and have actually considered a working business budget.

My point is that it is a massive error to confuse cost of materials with cost of production and distribution.

Rudz

09-18-2012, 01:15 PM

I've been here for over 7 years and have quite a few posts. Some of you know me, some of you don't. At our peak in about 06/07 AO Socal alone had 60+ people coming out regularly. Times have changed, a lot of us are broke, and can't afford to play. Some of us still play, but not with mags.

I promise that there will always be a mag in my stable (because I spent so much money on a couple of them, I'd be stupid to sell em).

I don't have money to "save AO" but if she dies, I still have my memories, my friends and Tunaball, where we meet every year for the last 6 years and I've made some of my best friends off this forum, I know these guys by there first and last names and there wives and kids, were brothers because of this forum and for that I thank you TK. I do not want to see our forum die, but she has withered away for years now and it makes me sad.

I do wonder sometimes what she would look like updated with new software, avatars, a chatroom and signatures and all. Would people come back? Thinking the other day, I believe me and my friends are now part of the old guard, I see new posters and no longer know who they are, I see the same thread topics you see every couple months and remember when I made those threads myself.

There was a time I didn't even know how to change the velocity on my frst mag, a karta tunamax emag, and forget about tuning a lvl x, lol. Now I'm a "mag guy" I can fix the damn things just by staring at them long enough.

This isn't my goodbye, because everytime I wear my AGD shirt, sweater, hat, jersey or end up on Creamridge, NJ next year, the AO spirit will be alive and well

Tempted

09-18-2012, 06:32 PM

Flatliner333

09-18-2012, 07:27 PM

I don't believe the current discussions were about saving AGD the company ,we have no control over that. Save this forum.

Lohman446

09-18-2012, 07:44 PM

I haven't been into Mags very long, but I have been into paintball a while. The reason it took so long to get into Mags is because of two reasons:

The cheap Mags cost more than what mid range electros run. They have slow cycling, 100lb trigger pull, are as efficient as Grave Digger and have barrels that are unique to them only.

The Mags that compete with mid range electros($200+/- used) are $500+.

There is no incentive for new players to buy them. Now that I'm a little older and enjoy classic markers, I love them. They are bullet proof and are overall just cool. But most Mag owners are just that, older and play with them for the nostalgia and cool factor. Once we get a few we don't need to buy anymore. And seeing as how it makes no sense to buy a new ULE Custom for $700 when you can get used ones for $300, why would you buy a new one? Brand loyalty?

This company will die if it can't pull in new customers. It won't pull in new customers with its current business plan. Where it gets interesting is when it does die. Then you will have some guys who are smaller part producers becoming the only sources for Mag parts. They will grow, their quantity will go up, their product range will evolve and we might get competitive parts for the right prices. Then Mags may come into demand, but AGD won't be here producing new markers. All older Mags will be sought after and once they're gone, they're gone.

PPS still exists. You can operate within a niche market and survive.

Would it be nice if we could go buy new mags for $100? Sure, I guess. However one has to question if it is within the realm of reasonable expectations given the current intellectual property, materials, tolerances, and other factors that influence price. There is a reason that modern markers are going to the set-ups they have now. With exception of the computer control system tolerances can be fairly large compared to a mag and still work out of the box.

Wanting something and being able to build a sustainable business model to get there are different things. PPS and any number of niche companies have shown that it is possible to manage with smaller market share. The marker you could build to compete with current markers on the low end would look a lot like the markers you are trying to compete with, not the mag you love. Now if we are talking a $1500 ultra-high end mech and TK is willing to produce a gun with some of the features he hinted towards years ago we are in a different game (and yes, I still lay claim to the first one, I offered to put a deposit on it years ago).

As is pointed out above me there is a difference between saving AGD and saving AO. I have already put in my contribution to AO. Luke is going above and beyond. Others have as well obviously. Saving AO is about imminent financial issues not about rebuilding AGD. Rudz is right though. AO will live on one way or another in the end.

Tempted

09-19-2012, 11:31 PM

Without new customers, AGD will fall. When that happens, all sites and forums will also eventually fall. To save AO you have to rely on AGD.

Lohman446

09-20-2012, 07:01 AM

Without new customers, AGD will fall. When that happens, all sites and forums will also eventually fall. To save AO you have to rely on AGD.

Why? There are a lot of forums that are user supported or supported through themselves (advertising) without being directly tied to a manufacturer. Once upon a time AO was independent.

BTAutoMag

09-20-2012, 07:16 AM

im on another site about dodge neons... they dont make those anymore and the site is GROWING. you dont need a successful product to have a successful forum

Ando

09-20-2012, 07:35 AM

you dont need a successful product to have a successful forum
:rofl:

OPBN

09-20-2012, 09:51 AM

im on another site about dodge neons... they dont make those anymore and the site is GROWING.
How sad. :rofl:

BTAutoMag

09-20-2012, 09:53 AM

yes yes. hit the kid who drives the neon he has no feelings :(

OPBN

09-20-2012, 09:58 AM

yes yes. hit the kid who drives the neon he has no feelings :(
LOL. I don't care what you drive, but the fact that there is a forum dedicated to it is quite sad. Heck I drive a 14 year old Isuzu Rodeo, I have no business judging peoples rides.

BTAutoMag

09-20-2012, 10:08 AM

there are some INSANE cars on there.

I drive a 14 year old Isuzu Rodeo

and you have my sympathies

OPBN

09-20-2012, 10:13 AM

there are some INSANE cars on there.

and you have my sympathies
No sympathies needed my friend. 150k miles and the only thing I've ever replaced besides batteries, tires etc is a starter and exhaust peice. Been one of the most reliable vehicles I have ever owned actually. Bought it new in 98.

BTAutoMag

09-20-2012, 10:20 AM

well I used to be a mechanic... I would run when one of them came in. in the end, I dont have to think about fixing my neon. its so simple its stupid :rofl:

GoatBoy

09-20-2012, 04:45 PM

My point is this. A company making money looks incredibly easy from the outside looking in. Actually doing it is an entirely different story. My suggestion is BEFORE you put up a lot of capital on something that looks so simple that you fully consider it and talk to people in the industry or with business experience. When I see people explaining to me how much profit is available in something and then list only material costs it makes me wonder who they intend to hire to do it, manage it, handle payroll issues, proper business licenses, insurance (there is a big list, you get the point).

I don't care what you guys do with your money. My suggestion is before you start dumping money into it that you have an operational plan and have actually considered a working business budget.

My point is that it is a massive error to confuse cost of materials with cost of production and distribution.

I think your suggestions are totally appropriate for anyone who is going to do what you say -- put down capital on starting a business venture.

And now here’s my point: I do not intend to start a business.

My suggestion is to simply crack open the IP (which you have claimed I mis-valued, even though I never stated a number, and the fact that I indicated that it should be purchased means I gave it some non-zero value, and of course you have not stated by what degree I’ve mis-valued it) and allow someone who might want to investigate this to do it in greater detail. That includes “proper business licenses”.

That way someone like Tempted can do what he wants if he really thinks it works, in the open, with original specs, etc.

Maybe they want to start a business, or maybe they just want to make a one-off part. Or maybe they’ll just contract a run of parts. There are many shades of gray here where you only seem to see green.

Again, your posts on this general subject have little by way of information or interest in automag products at all, and you don't even care what we do with our money anyways.

If it really is your point just to warn investors to do their homework -- great, we got it. Thanks for your “concern”.

Lohman446

09-20-2012, 07:21 PM

Ok, I have been fairly nice.

This is what I am tired of already after being back a very short time and watching very limited threads:

I am tried of people second guessing and making this "oh TK should have... or AGD should have..." I give an exception to the people who thought AO should be different and stepped up and built a successful forum. I give people like Luke, who wanted something different, built and offered it incredible amounts of credit. However there are a lot of people on here who think it is so simple and straight forward and AGD just did not try or it would have been so easy. Oddly enough these people never seem to grasp the reality of business even when it is pointed out to them by people who have been there and done that.

Here is a hint: AGD has had its IP stolen in the best (google the Colonial paintball marker) and not stepped up and taken anyone to court over it. In fact they have been more than willing to lend the use of trademarks and other IP. If you have such a remarkable idea and all that is stopping you is some IP I suggest that TK may very well rent you the IP cheaply (maybe not, I do not presume to speak for him) and that the IP is probably not worth defending in court.

There are a lot of people who want to second guess everything that AGD and TK did and the reasons they did it. If you can do it better step up. Its very easy for us to risk someone elses capital and pluck numbers out of the air on how cheaply we could produce something and the price we could sell it in vast quantities for.

Successful companies are often those that started in the face of a lot of criticism and stepped up anyways and said can to. However all the "can to" I see on this board is empty with very few actually willing to step up and stick their necks out. Question TKs decisions and AGDs all you want but understand that the decisions they made were made when they had sticks in the fire. Its very easy to say "you should" or "you should have" from a distance. If you have the answers on how easy it would be to make AGD great again put them to use. Invest your money, your time, your effort and your soul into doing it. However get off the sidelines and quit complaing about those who are or have.

When you are able to manufacture and successfully market as more than a niche company a marker based off the mag design in America with a level of service and quality up to the standards of AGD I will even apologize for nay-saying and buy one. Of course with all the money available in paintball still it will mean nothing to you.

shooter311

09-21-2012, 08:39 AM

Here is a hint: AGD has had its IP stolen in the best (google the Colonial paintball marker)

I am pretty good with working the Goggle search on the interweb Masheen, but I couldn't find anything.

I'm interested, anyone have any links to this marker?

Lohman446

09-21-2012, 08:47 AM

I am pretty good with working the Goggle search on the interweb Masheen, but I couldn't find anything.

I'm interested, anyone have any links to this marker?

You were not kidding about it not being a simple Google search. I was going off memory and thought maybe I had screwed up the name. Here is a thread that discusses it on MCB

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/miscellaneous-markers/82507-colonial.html

The MCB thread indicates there was a threat of legal action. I could be wrong on how I remember the story but as I recall it the failure of the company was competetive. AGD was able to economically keep them from ever being a player by offering a better package and price.

This is an old AO thread that may be where I got that thought from:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42768&highlight=colonial

Another old AO thread where the Webmaster stated it was economic competition

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14896&highlight=colonial

Lohman446

09-21-2012, 09:31 AM

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41733&highlight=colonial

Pay close attention to Manike's response in this thread and then compare it to discussion in other threads. Copying the AGD valve to the tolerances needed to make it reliable is not simple. Others have tried and failed in the past.

shooter311

09-21-2012, 09:39 AM

Very interesting, I had no idea there were copycats. It is funny how they didn't even try to mask the Colonial , it was a spitting image of the Mag. Very clever of TK to package deal the mag.

Spider-TW

09-21-2012, 09:56 AM

Speaking of "second guessing", I get to watch things get designed by committee pretty often. When we want something done right, we get one guy to design it and another to check it. If it's complicated, it gets broken up. If it's not perfect, you iterate. Never do you stack more brains onto the same issue unless you are pushing another aside.

I say let the man work. At it's worst, it can't be worse than a pre-order or more laughable than the Luxe girl (her pseudonym will come to me later). If we continue to have the "go-to" place for new mag owners (of old mags), we will be able continue to support our custom market and our spares stores. I would guess there's quite a few mags floating around out there that we haven't modded or upgraded yet. I've got plans for a few more.

GoatBoy

09-21-2012, 05:42 PM

I am tried of people second guessing and making this "oh TK should have... or AGD should have..."

That's it in a nutshell. That's what I was looking for. Sweep aside all faux reasoning and this is what you're left with.

Your problem is the idea that we’re questioning your god.

But your problem is, well, not my problem.

Anything else from your posts is either outdated (by nearly 2 decades), or just baseless to begin with. I leave it to the other readers to consider the big picture, if they are able.

Ando

09-21-2012, 06:42 PM

No sympathies needed my friend. 150k miles and the only thing I've ever replaced besides batteries, tires etc is a starter and exhaust peice. Been one of the most reliable vehicles I have ever owned actually. Bought it new in 98.
I just broke 200k this past week on my 01 Dakota. Only thing I've replace on mine beside the basics is the water pump. I might be needing a new muffler system here shortly, not sounding too good. :rolleyes:

She's my daily driver :cheers:

Lohman446

09-21-2012, 07:19 PM

That's it in a nutshell. That's what I was looking for. Sweep aside all faux reasoning and this is what you're left with.

Your problem is the idea that we’re questioning your god.

But your problem is, well, not my problem.

Anything else from your posts is either outdated (by nearly 2 decades), or just baseless to begin with. I leave it to the other readers to consider the big picture, if they are able.

I assure you my business knowledge is current. Cost of production for small scale manufacturing (even at its peak this includes AGD) has not gone down. The people most willing to throw stones are also seeming to be the least knowledgeable and most willing to pick numbers out of the air. Im not allowed to discuss religion here and discuss your god comment but I assure you you are mistaken there as well

Edit (cause I want to use fancy words too): There is no "faux" reasoning that you elude to. The statements I made still stand apart from the motivation to make them. Nice try on that one but at very best you have created an ad hominem fallacy and tried to base your conclusion off of it while ignoring the valid premises - its considered a fallacy of logic for a reason.