12gram Efficiency mods. Pics and Props

[skyless]

I've been wanting to share this for a while but have waited untill I had reached my goal of 30+ shots off a 12gram. So here after dozens of reconfigurations, and alot of help, my results.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/skyless_album/23E97F4A-D5A1-4639-8324-B59BE05F115E-380-0000007457B1FA39.jpg
My first mag was a Sydarm, now I have this.
I had previously had the Micro-CaII setup under the grip frame and was running a pump kit.
I removed the pump temporarily to simplify things while testing and to lighten things up for more of a pistol style play, plus by removing airlines I gained 3-5 shots at least. The female stab allowed me to run it like this and not suffer horrible inconsistency. Previous similar configurations without the stab made me want to never use 12grams again it was so bad.
Anyways.....the guts.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/skyless_album/F55C79A6-32D5-443B-A3E3-1544622B71D4-390-0000007693BBC4D2.jpg
I cut my softest spring down to just short of the bolt oring mod. This is the same spring I use with my pump. It has no problems resetting, perhaps I can go shorter but I've not experimented with the details of spring fine tuning.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/skyless_album/C1358A38-E734-4966-9607-650A6633062E-390-00000076DC73E098.jpg
The bolt is a long nose bolt with a quad oring installed by Hill. I don't have with and without comparisons nor have I experimented with efficiency based on different bolts, there are alot of them...
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/skyless_album/A1314EAD-3F82-4B32-AC2A-03FF604665CB-390-00000076A37AEE0B.jpg
The power tube tip was also one of Hills mods, the early attempts tore up orings, but this configuration has no problems and I've seen no degrading wear on the orings.
I have yet to do a with and without evaluation.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/skyless_album/02ADE6EE-7C64-488F-B967-4CD8A401C467-390-00000076F6BD96F9.jpg
I had my valve opened and devolumized. I have been using the washers instead of Hills insert to fine tune the dump chamber size. His insert takes up just a little less volume then the washers Im using.

Theres still room for alot of fine tuning and I'm sure 35+ is possible, I'm just not sure if I want to push for the 40 mark quite yet.

Feel free ask about any part of this journey, I would keep going on all the different configurations and the pros and cons of the many vsrations I went through, but I'm doing this on my phone that I just dropped and shattered the screen which is now pitting glass shards in my thumbs.......
Ohh but first check out these results from my last 12gram
292
275
283
284
283
281
277
289
279
282
289
287
266
289
275
288
282
287
276
288
287
289
294
285
292
285
283
292
284
280
253
219
I decreased the velocity just a smidg for next time since I'm all out of 12gs for now.

Enjoy! And I hope this helps!

[BTAutoMag]

do you have hill's affeciency mod too or are your internals different? any other valve mods?

[skyless]

do you have hill's affeciency mod too or are your internals different? any other valve mods?

I forgot that pic. Edited and added!

[Ando]

Those look like the washers I'm using in my valve. Did you get those from the HDWR department in Lowe's :D

Also, does your CA have a ck valve in it?

[skyless]

Those look like the washers I'm using in my valve. Did you get those from the HDWR department in Lowe's :D

Also, does your CA have a ck valve in it?

The washers came from Loguzzzzzz when I had my valve devolumized.
I don't have the check valve for the CA, I've made several improvised attempts at making my own but nothing I'm happy with. I would really like to get it working and increase my shots after the 1st 12ie.

[hill160881]

Glad to see you are getting good numbers. How quiet is it with the orings on the power tube tip and bolt tip? I noticed a difference in the sound on mine. A deeper puff sound.
:cheers:

[GoatBoy]

ambient conditions
paint size
insert size
shot interval

[hill160881]

ambient conditions
paint size
insert size
shot interval


And maybe the weight of the 12 gram as well.

[skyless]

ambient conditions
paint size
insert size
shot interval


Great question! I forgot to mention this stuff. I'm sure all play an important role but were not the focus as much as valve modification and configuration. since they are not constants in regards to setup.
I'm in Santa Barbara where it's warm and sunny.
Paint was old, cheap, oddshaped paint.
The insert I used would let some roll out with alittle shake while some fit snug and took a bit of lung power to blow-gun them out. I didn't want to go too small and cause ball breaks since the paint was so old.
Shots were done a second or 3 between eachother, just time to write the fps and reset the chrono.
and just for info, I'm using a 10" deadly wind barrel with 2" porting.

[hill160881]

What was your starting number before modifications again?

[skyless]

What was your starting number before modifications again?

8-12 balls with horrible consistency. Devolumizing alone upped to about 20 shots.

[hill160881]

Sounds like a clean 100% increase in efficiency if not more. :dance:

[GEE TEE]

Very impressive results :cool:

Bet that shot to shot consistency would tighten up a lot on decent paint

I wonder if the same efficiency improvements would be noted if running HPA?

[hill160881]

Very impressive results :cool:

Bet that shot to shot consistency would tighten up a lot on decent paint

I wonder if the same efficiency improvements would be noted if running HPA?


This is why I made the inserts to see if there was the same increase. Once I spoke to skyless I new it was worth a try considering the % increase. I never got any firm results with the inserts but everything points to it working for HPA to. I think Luke has some in stock.

:cheers:

[need4reebs]

very nice! great job Sky less!!! and props to Hill!!! :hail:

[river031403]

A little necro but any machinist willing to do the bolt tip and powertube tip mod

[river031403]

The more I look at automag marker animation,it doesn't seem like the bolt tip or the powertube tip orings would have any effect on 12gram efficiency.Since the gas escapes through the center of the powertube to the center of the bolt.Plus like the O.P. Stated he didn't test with a normal bolt nor did he test with a stock powertube tip either. My guess is the stabiliser and the inserts and barrel to paint match are doing the work?Thoughts anyone?

[skyless]

Wow! Its been a while since I've been here. Hope you didn't miss me too much ;)
Yes you are right. Devolumizing makes the most difference, it was my first mod and it easly doubled the efficiency, this includes putting weed wacker line in my airhoses too. The stabilizer makes all the difference with consistency. I have 2 12g setups now. One sidesaddle co2 mounted and one micro CA II under grip mounted. I do see better results with the micro ca setup. Feel free to ask any info you would like and I'll see about breaking these out for you guys.

[river031403]

Yes I'd like to see the two set ups and Pmd you some questions

[skyless]

I'll help as much as I can. Would love to see someone break the 40 ball mark!

[zondo]

Wow! Its been a while since I've been here. Hope you didn't miss me too much ;)
Yes you are right. Devolumizing makes the most difference, it was my first mod and it easly doubled the efficiency, this includes putting weed wacker line in my airhoses too.

What about using micro-line? or a hardline setup (ala phantom hardline)?

[captian pinky]

What about using micro-line? or a hardline setup (ala phantom hardline)?

been tinkering with my pistol mag a bit last night still trying to work out a few bugs on the valve before i get to some numbers.

devolumized powertube ( made myself)
devolumized macro (weedwackerline)
micro ca bottomline mounted
level 7 with a short spring like the one pictured above

[river031403]

Well I was able to purchase a micro ca II tonight it's on it's way and I have classic valve with insert on the way I will probably mess with polishing power tube and other tinkering and see how it goes

[river031403]

What I've got so far
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/2B08BC39-755E-4066-BA0B-C3DB116734CE_zpsns4ek0k7.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/2B08BC39-755E-4066-BA0B-C3DB116734CE_zpsns4ek0k7.jpg.html)
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/703AAF78-B1F2-44A8-8B69-5C20A7D81506_zpsvuzyjdun.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/703AAF78-B1F2-44A8-8B69-5C20A7D81506_zpsvuzyjdun.jpg.html)
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/80107875-1EF4-4A61-9099-2B840D569852_zpstpg0r3rl.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/80107875-1EF4-4A61-9099-2B840D569852_zpstpg0r3rl.jpg.html)
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/EAA5268B-3724-48CF-B6AC-6CFDAF10364B_zpsvqxxsup4.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/EAA5268B-3724-48CF-B6AC-6CFDAF10364B_zpsvqxxsup4.jpg.html)
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/93877DB7-7B24-4BDB-911E-5810A6CA065C_zpswrtaqlu2.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/93877DB7-7B24-4BDB-911E-5810A6CA065C_zpswrtaqlu2.jpg.html)
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/EBCC70CE-CCD7-4794-920B-ACD709DEC2A1_zpskq5lk4pb.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/EBCC70CE-CCD7-4794-920B-ACD709DEC2A1_zpskq5lk4pb.jpg.html)
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/BDDBE4F2-EA74-4A16-A03D-78B54AD4400B_zpsd11o8703.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/BDDBE4F2-EA74-4A16-A03D-78B54AD4400B_zpsd11o8703.jpg.html)

[captian pinky]

have you actually shot that one over the chrono? im thinking that your velocity probably isn't high enough.

[river031403]

have you actually shot that one over the chrono? im thinking that your velocity probably isn't high enough.

Not yet soon though! Seems pretty high but of course I can't confirm yet I'll start off at your setting of "250 being a usable shot"

[captian pinky]

just to be clear i was chronoing at 270-275 and was throwing out numbers under 250

[river031403]

just to be clear i was chronoing at 270-275 and was throwing out numbers under 250

Oh ok it reads differently on MCB I'll test at 250 and at 270 see what happens my buddy has a chrono and I'll be using a freak kit also

[river031403]

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j381/river031403/865B14DF-D1E4-40CE-A071-7CEAAF757721_zpsnocq48z5.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/river031403/media/865B14DF-D1E4-40CE-A071-7CEAAF757721_zpsnocq48z5.jpg.html)
57 degrees
2,779 elevation
.682 economy paint GI sports
(Changes)
Sheridan inline regulator(output set@650)
Cut down gold spring to face of ANS Venturi bolt
Chrono 282
30 shots

It was very(like crazy)inconsistent without the inline regulator that's why I added it.