High end / low end / mid end

[Lohman446]

I have been thinking about SP / DLX whatever it is lately and how "muddied" the waters have gotten in this regard.

Once upon a time the Mag and Cocker were clearly high end. They used a slightly different mechanical system from most any other marker out there. You either had the mag, the cocker, or one of the "cheap" blowback markers like the Spyder.

I recently picked up a Shocker NXT. The last PSP Chicago I went to (the first year that sideline coaching was allowed IIRC) I drooled over the Shocker NXT. Say what you will about SP of the era but I had shot the SFTs for some time and rather liked the NXT. I was, that year, shooting an Evil Minion for other reasons.

When I "came back" to paintball this year I picked up an NXT (and a Viking, and a classic RT mag). Having grown into the sport shooting SFTs the NXT is everything I remember. Sure it will have its issues but on the field I really do not see what any other marker could do any better. I am sure that owners of the axe, mini, and various other markers will say the same thing. The interesting thing about the NXT is I bought it used and paid a bit less than Ion prices for it.

So buyers are given markers that use, effectively, the same system for firing a paintball in the Ion, various Shockers, and the Luxe. I can spend anywhere from a couple hundred dollars (or less if I buy used) to $1500

The main advantage of the higher end markers has come down to "ergonomics". I understand it can be a valid argument but ergonomics are, but nature, different from person to person. Especially considering the age range and body type difference of paintballers on the field.

So I ask AO its thoughts on todays markers and the lines between low end, high end, and mid range.

[DarkApollo]

Lets me start off with I will never own $martFarts guns. Barrel, maxflo, rails, sure, guns no. i have never been impressed with their quality. Everytine I see an ion or shocker on the field I see the same gun in the pits being torn apart or thrown in a gear bag with disgust.

There really is no low-mid-high any more. The market has been so flooded by 'yearly' guns that a 2 year old 'high end' will sell for 1/4 of its brand new price. Planet Eclipse and Dye started that nonsense with their numbering system and very little changes year to year so that the agglettes can dump mommy and daddy money on 'this years model' which looks little different than the previous.
Look at Bob Long. Classic, 2k2, 2k5, all were very much the same. Minor changes but not 5 new guns in 5 years. Then came the Gen4/2k6 with a huge change, and the vice etc all had big design changes that justified a new model.
Planet Eclipse, Dye, and a few others have killed the market with subtile changes but it was the next best thing!
PE FINALLY realized that a minor milling change does not need to be a new model.

[Spider-TW]

There really is no low-mid-high any more.
Not in reality, but there is still the marketing angle.

Some high-ends are no more than designer entries. It's more like buying an expensive car. If it's what you want and like to drive, roll with it. Does it do any better than a fully functional old car? Not when you're stuck in traffic or humping over the pot-holes. Is it more reliable? Maybe, maybe not. Can you compete better with it? Maybe, maybe not. It might be engineered for a smoother ride, but the stiffness and the light weight may make it a rougher ride than an older model.

And what do you think when you get a scratch on the body? Who does your maintenance? The point there being, if you are capable of maintaining your own stuff and are willing to live with some wear, why would you buy a new ride, unless you just want one? If you can't have any wear, then you're collecting and that's a different game. If someone else does your maintenance, you need a backup or two.

When a player throws their marker on the ground, that says to me that they did not select or maintain that marker themselves. They are mad at the marker, not themselves for picking that pos or missing the maintenance.

[BTAutoMag]

they need to do a classics tourney every year. they have vintage races... why not vintage paintball :clap:

[wimag]

they need to do a classics tourney every year. they have vintage races... why not vintage paintball :clap:

who is "they" ? Just some random thought you are throwing out there, or you referring to someone in particular ?

[DarkApollo]

When a player throws their marker on the ground, that says to me that they did not select or maintain that marker themselves. They are mad at the marker, not themselves for picking that pos or missing the maintenance.

Not necessarily. A poor quality gun can and will always have problems. If you need to replace Orings every other game, or no matter what cannot get the gun to shoot consistantly, that is not always a maintenance issue.
My 09MM had so many issue I sent it off to a mag-whisperer who put the valve and frame on another gun and it was flawless, swapping back to that one showed the same issues.

[BTAutoMag]

well I know for a fact that road america has vintage races every year. they even had a big paintball event at road america ONCE :mad:

but a tournament that only features pre-2000ish guns (tanks, masks, and hoppers not included) would be an awesome event :headbang:

[DarkApollo]

well I know for a fact that road america has vintage races every year. they even had a big paintball event at road america ONCE :mad:

but a tournament that only features pre-2000ish guns (tanks, masks, and hoppers not included) would be an awesome event :headbang:

It would be a cocker-mag fest and you know it!

[BTAutoMag]

why do you think I suggested it :rofl:

[wimag]

why do you think I suggested it :rofl:

promote it at your home field.

[skipdogg]

promote it at your home field.

I would be there to play this.

[BTAutoMag]

ive never seen an autococker at my field and im the only guy there with a mag :(

but ill talk to wally and see :clap:

[TOTShadowCompany]

No bps limit. Mech only. Sounds like fun.

[BTAutoMag]

how many would be interested in something like this

[OPBN]

how many would be interested in something like this
Didnt they have a Cocker vs Mag last year in Cali somewhere?

[wimag]

ten on my team.

[DarkApollo]

Didnt they have a Cocker vs Mag last year in Cali somewhere?

Earlier this year at SCVillage.

[skipdogg]

how many would be interested in something like this

I could field a 3man team or two. Set it up for spring!

[BTAutoMag]

hmmmm, ill give him a ring :p

[PsychoMag]

I would totally play in a mech only game.

As far as these markers today, there really is only so many designs to choose from. Smaller companies getting ideas from bigger ones. Seems like the trend now is on spool valve guns. Eclipse is king because they give players style. They make you NEED to have the newest Ego/Geo. Even though the differences from model year to model year are not so noteworthy.

I would still prefer certain manufacturers though, for their quality, craftsmanship, and superior design. I would not run out to buy a knock off of a higher end marker, but I would take an 08 Ego over the latest model.

My markers now are a ULE Luke's Custom Emag, Angel A1, and a System X cocker pump.

And I have always, and will always, boycott Smart Parts. That company makes second rate markers and the organization has no morals or values. They've done some really bad things in the past decade.

[Frizzle Fry]

I have to say, I believe the range is no longer "Low End" "Mid Range" and "High End".

<$100 "BackYard" - Plastic BE pumps, JT Walmart-Specials, Alpha Black, "starter kits"

<$250 "Recreational" - Most Spyders, Tippmanns, Azodins, BT Mechanicals, GOG electros, DP E1

<$500 "Junior Tourney" - Proto Electros, DP Electros, Eclipse Etek, Etha, Tippmann Crossover, Empire/Invert

<$1250 "Tournament"- Eclipse Ego & Geo, BL G6R, Macdev Electros, DYE Matrix & DAM, LUXE, Angels

<$1800 "SuperGun" - Machine Vapor, Eclipse SL, etc





IMHO the thing that kept Smart Parts from EVER producing a high-end marker in the 2000s was the quality of materials used and the quality control (finish). Cheap aluminum, lazy anodizing, milling marks.

[Freedy500]

ive never seen an autococker at my field and im the only guy there with a mag :(

I feel ya. Minus the cocker part. I see a decent amount of those at my field.

[BTAutoMag]

ok, i started a tourney discuassion...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262922

/thread jack over :rolleyes:

[GoatBoy]

No bps limit. Mech only. Sounds like fun.

I would love a mech only game where it really was mech only. No batteries at all, including hoppers.

[knownothingmags]

I would love a mech only game where it really was mech only. No batteries at all, including hoppers.
and no pneumatics? :D

[GoatBoy]

and no pneumatics? :D

I'm pretty sure nearly all paintball guns are pneumatically operated :)

[Justus]

In that case, a Tippmann A5 RT is going to be the speed king unless someone brings a Q-loaded X-valve'd Mag.

Point being, you're still going to have the ROF of 15+ bps very much achievable. Because of that, there's no reason to create these games based on limited functions when there are workarounds. If the point is to limit the ROF or paint usage, then just do that and call it a "less than 10 bps" game or "200-rounds" game instead of a "mech-only" game.

[GoatBoy]

In that case, a Tippmann A5 RT is going to be the speed king unless someone brings a Q-loaded X-valve'd Mag.

Point being, you're still going to have the ROF of 15+ bps very much achievable. Because of that, there's no reason to create these games based on limited functions when there are workarounds. If the point is to limit the ROF or paint usage, then just do that and call it a "less than 10 bps" game or "200-rounds" game instead of a "mech-only" game.

But Q-loaders suck so bad. They're finicky, unreliable, fragile, hard on paint, a pain to reload both on-gun and also between games, and their capacity is too limited.

Basically, everything we've read about the Q-loader from really skilled operators.

So they really should be no threat in a mech-only game.

Amirite?



Edit: I went fishing around for some A5 gameplay videos as it's been one of those curiosities for me and ran across this little gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ro_IfPv1g

Man, I would not want to face that guy on the field. No way. His A5 is AMAZING. It shoots so fast it looks like the paint is literally dripping out of his barrel.

[OPBN]

I'm not a fan of the Q, but my brother has been fiddling with his setups for a couple of years and has them dialed in really well.

See, I thought the mech games were more interesting as an old school thing. Trying to get the Cockers, Mags and some others out of the closets and on to the fields. More of a big game style set up rather than a speedball tourney set up. As soon as I heard 3 Manxxxx I clicked the back button and moved on .

[BTAutoMag]

dont hit back and move on. i want input. if you dont a speedball set up then we can use a concept field a boneyard

[OPBN]

dont hit back and move on. i want input. if you dont a speedball set up then we can use a concept field a boneyard
My paintball dollars are limited ATM, so I consider my input not so relevant. While I love the idea of getting together with like minded paintballers that appreciate the relevance and/or history of older markers. I'd love to see some guys pulling out some truly old school stuff and having a go at it. Making it into a tournament IMO, makes it more about winning and less about showcasing the markers.

But again, my traveling budget is nearly negative right now so..

[Lohman446]

I'm going to make a new thread on mech only games and why I do not think they are the answer and move my discussion to that thread.

[BTAutoMag]

My paintball dollars are limited ATM, so I consider my input not so relevant. While I love the idea of getting together with like minded paintballers that appreciate the relevance and/or history of older markers. I'd love to see some guys pulling out some truly old school stuff and having a go at it. Making it into a tournament IMO, makes it more about winning and less about showcasing the markers.

But again, my traveling budget is nearly negative right now so..


being poor doesnt make you stupid and I respect you. so any input you have is worth your time to me :p

[OPBN]

I'm going to make a new thread on mech only games and why I do not think they are the answer and move my discussion to that thread.
Sorry for the threadjack, guess I found the Mech only more interesting. lol

As for low/mid/high I really don't give it so much thought anymore. I know that I will most likely never spend $1k+ on a marker unless it comes with an oral gratification device on the side or I totally step out of playing and just start collecting. Neither of which I see happening anytime soon. I also find the line being blurred since the prices of used highends rapidly comes down into the mid range within a short amount of time these days. I would still consider an Ego9,10 or whatever a relatively high end, even though they now fall into mid range pricing.

[Lohman446]

Sorry for the threadjack, guess I found the Mech only more interesting. lol

As for low/mid/high I really don't give it so much thought anymore. I know that I will most likely never spend $1k+ on a marker unless it comes with an oral gratification device on the side or I totally step out of playing and just start collecting. Neither of which I see happening anytime soon. I also find the line being blurred since the prices of used highends rapidly comes down into the mid range within a short amount of time these days. I would still consider an Ego9,10 or whatever a relatively high end, even though they now fall into mid range pricing.

LOL - I have not been around enough lately for anyone to realize this but my ability to lead a discussion off topic is incredible :).

That being said I think this particular discussion is worty of having its own thread.

[BTAutoMag]

all I want is input on what you want in a mech only tourney :(

[Lohman446]

all I want is input on what you want in a mech only tourney :(

Fair enough: limited paint. Mech only / limited paint would intrigue me

[BTAutoMag]

lol, would you drive 4 hours to watch it ;)

[Lohman446]

To watch no. Paintball is incredibly boring to watch. To play - maybe

[BTAutoMag]

But Q-loaders suck so bad. They're finicky, unreliable, fragile, hard on paint, a pain to reload both on-gun and also between games, and their capacity is too limited.

Basically, everything we've read about the Q-loader from really skilled operators.

So they really should be no threat in a mech-only game.

Amirite?



Edit: I went fishing around for some A5 gameplay videos as it's been one of those curiosities for me and ran across this little gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ro_IfPv1g

Man, I would not want to face that guy on the field. No way. His A5 is AMAZING. It shoots so fast it looks like the paint is literally dripping out of his barrel.


PS thats an e grip

[Freedy500]

In that case, a Tippmann A5 RT is going to be the speed king unless someone brings a Q-loaded X-valve'd Mag.
At your service :dance: :cheers: :cheers: :dance:
http://i.imgur.com/h3ZYI.jpg
1100 psi output by the way. I only RT when I desperately need it though. I usually try and stay under the radar :cool:


But Q-loaders suck so bad. They're finicky, unreliable, fragile, hard on paint, a pain to reload both on-gun and also between games, and their capacity is too limited.
Basically, everything we've read about the Q-loader from really skilled operators.

So they really should be no threat in a mech-only game.

I beg to differ. I have never had a problem that wasn't user error. I have also never chopped paint in it because of weak paint only because I was being an idiot. And they are very tough. I put them through a ton of stress and it holds up great, and it only takes me a good 3-5 seconds to reload at the most during game and for the pre-load it takes a good 10+ seconds to reload depending on whether I have to refill the hopper or not. I believe that most people in the AO community would do great with the Q but it simply does not fit their needs and style of play well. They are a great design and product so do not say they suck. Simply realize that they are not for a lot of people.

You dont have to be "skilled" with the Qloader. You simply have to know how it works. Which I didn't find difficult as I always learn the operation of everything I buy. We should all know how a basic Automag valve works. Just because you know what O-rings to replace and what to do with the valve doesn't mean your skilled with it.

Most people are just use to the ease of use of using a normal hopper where you just dump paint in it and let it do its thing along with replacing batteries every so often.

I consider myself a significant threat at times because if you look at my mag' (link above) imagine someone who knows how to use a mag and a Q well using that with a high output pressure. I can RT like Zak Vetter with the fastest loading system on the market out there and shoot or turn around any angle with no profile. All you see is my barrel and my mask :ninja: so in a way I could one of the most dangerous people on the field. Thats just in theory, I am not really that good. The Q is good but nothing is perfect you have just got to give it a lot of patience and attention to get used to it.

/end rant/

[knownothingmags]

At your service :dance: :cheers: :cheers: :dance:
http://i.imgur.com/h3ZYI.jpg
1100 psi output by the way. I only RT when I really need it though. Like last man standing desperation sorta need.



I beg to differ. I believe that most people in the AO community would do great with the Q but it simply does not fir their needs and style of play well. They are a great design in product so do not say they suck. Simply realize that they are not for a lot of people.

[QUOTE/]Basically, everything we've read about the Q-loader from really skilled operators.

You dont have to be "skilled" with the Qloader. You simply have to know how it works. Which I didn't find difficult as I always learn the operation of everything a buy. We should all know how a basic Automag valve works. Just because you know what O-rings to replace and what to do with the valve doesn't mean your skilled with it.

Most people are just use to the ease of use of using a normal hopper where you just dump paint in it and let it do its thing along with replacing batteries every so often.



I consider myself a significant because if you look at my mag' (link above) imagine someone who knows how to use a mag and a Q well using that with a high output pressure. I can RT like Zak Vetter with the fastest loading system on the market out there and shoot or turn around any angle with no profile. All you see is my barrel and my mask :ninja: so in a way I could one of the most dangerous people on the field. In theory, but I am not really that good. you have just got to give it a lot of patience and attention to get used to it.

/end rant/
pft
anyone can do what zak did.
he was the first to video tape it and make a big deal about it. :rofl:

but yeah it is fun to do.

[Freedy500]

my computer was all jacked up so it entered the post when I wasn't finished with it yet. I just edited the post to how it would have been without multi-quoting anyway. Too lazy to fix it . Oh god I suck at multi-quoting anyway.

Back on topic. Yes it is always fun to scare someone with an RT but my point was that Qloaders are dangerous (in the good way) with people who know how to use them to their advantage. They don't suck they simply aren't for everyone. Besides it can get pretty difficult to hit someone like me with barely any of there mask showing.

Although the 2 biggest things anyone who has ever used or still does use Qloaders can agree on are these. We all hate the carrying capacity and the cost. 20 bucks a pod is quite different from usually spending 1-6 dollars a pod and this thing counts as your hopper so you have under half the carrying capacity at 100 rounds a pod. I just wanted to express that Q's aren't complete pieces of crap. Sure they have there flaws but what doesn't :)

[Justus]

I've got video of my ETac in mech-only mode, Qloaded (before I sold it off), shooting 20.5 bps. At that point I was having problems with my E-mode, since fixed, but that episode taught me that I'm better off with my SHP reg turned down to 950 psi instead of 1100 psi. Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djHYkl_UUAM&t=1m0s

This is in a completely battery-free mode, remember.

[GoatBoy]

;)

Just sayin'. If they're as bad as people on forums claim they are, then they should be no threat. Ya feelin me?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eae-dpnSc-0


BTAutoMag: not everyone needs to get their jollies off in a tournament format. Good ol' fashioned recball is bigger than tournament ball.

[Freedy500]

;)

Just sayin'. If they're as bad as people on forums claim they are, then they should be no threat. Ya feelin me?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eae-dpnSc-0


BTAutoMag: not everyone needs to get their jollies off in a tournament format. Good ol' fashioned recball is bigger than tournament ball.
yeah I understand. I sorta get that a lot. You have just gotta put sometime into them and play a few games to get used to them and they turn out great. Most people on forums dont exactly go well with Q's since they take some timw and work instead of just dumping in paint.

[OPBN]

I think its fair to say the QLoaders have a definite learning curve to dial them in, but once they are they can be effective. However, much like using remotes, stocks, sites etc. it's all about preference in the end.

[Lohman446]

I beg to differ. I have never had a problem that wasn't user error.

I think he might be describing me. At the time I was one of those people who had to have "the first" of everything. I had a q-loader and harness made for it when they were practically first announced. It was going to be the next big thing and I was going to have one before anyone else. I had made and had fabricated brackets to make it fit my mag at the time. I had devised a feeding system for reloading involving a warp to make it easier. I was ready.

Then I got on the field with the thing. Yes it was probably all user fault but I was not having a good day and the q-loader was not helping. It was a cold and muddy April day where only a few of us had been invited to the hyperball field prior to the field actually opening for the season.

There are still pieces of that spring some and q-pod somewhere in the woods because when you pull the q-pod off your marker and slam it against a hyperball tube enough times it does in fact break in spectacular fashion and that spring propels pieces a LONG ways.

I shipped the remainder to Doc in Alaska so I would never have to see it again

Yes it was probably my fault and I probably could have learned to use it. That being said it was still a spectacular failure

[Freedy500]

I think its fair to say the QLoaders have a definite learning curve to dial them in, but once they are they can be effective. However, much like using remotes, stocks, sites etc. it's all about preference in the end.
My point exactly

I think he might be describing me. At the time I was one of those people who had to have "the first" of everything. I had a q-loader and harness made for it when they were practically first announced. It was going to be the next big thing and I was going to have one before anyone else. I had made and had fabricated brackets to make it fit my mag at the time. I had devised a feeding system for reloading involving a warp to make it easier. I was ready.

Then I got on the field with the thing. Yes it was probably all user fault but I was not having a good day and the q-loader was not helping. It was a cold and muddy April day where only a few of us had been invited to the hyperball field prior to the field actually opening for the season.

There are still pieces of that spring some and q-pod somewhere in the woods because when you pull the q-pod off your marker and slam it against a hyperball tube enough times it does in fact break in spectacular fashion and that spring propels pieces a LONG ways.

I shipped the remainder to Doc in Alaska so I would never have to see it again

Yes it was probably my fault and I probably could have learned to use it. That being said it was still a spectacular failure
Yea I guess I would consider that user error a bit but not completely. The biggest factor was that you were mainly a first timer with it and you decided to test it for the first time at a field. They are designed to be strong but I am almost sure of where your Q-pod must have specifically been hit and if not then a ton of improvements have been made on Qpods. You probably hit it at the very base of the pod where there is the slot that holds all of the other pieces of the pod still when unloading and pre-loading. That about sums up the "Achilles heel" of the Q.

But I would say the two main errors of the company would have been that. 1) it just came out and was probably filled with flaws that have been improved since. 1) The materials used were probably not the best but if they were much better than they would either cost a lot more ($20 a pod is enough for me) or be much heavier or both. But they have a lifetime warranty and I never have to ship my troubled pods back. Sometimes they give me double of the parts needed when I do need some.

So yes that is definitely a failure but either could or has been fixed.