Mech only games

[Lohman446]

Let me be the first to tell you that I am really not interested in competing mech only games where we limit technology through such limitations.

In my opinion the "issue" that I would like to see resolved in paintball is the amount of air on the field. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with the "all in" speedball games and ramping markers that are allowing players to shoot a case of paint in a game - this just makes the paint cheaper for me. However when I want to play a "different" game the game I want is not really about what marker someone is using but how much paint is in the air.

I have this discussion about pumps all the time. Some producers provide games that are labeled as "pump only". However the limitations are worded as such that players are using force-fed markers, large capacity loaders, and wearing packs with multiple 200 round tubes. They are shooting 5BPS and are effectively playing the exact same game as a "standard" game. Yes I know there is a reduction in paint in the air (pumps are not as fast as electros) but the reduction is to such a level that it is meaningless to me at least. I have no desire to play this game specifically. I might as well play standard games.

Now I like stock class but even with this I have gone as far as using constant air and HPA because of convenience and not wanting to litter 12 grams. The point is that the rules for stock class or vertical stock class often are written to such a level that they exclude many players for lack of equipment. Even some of the most popular "vertical stock class" markers are excluded because they have an auto trigger feature (the Phantom)

What would mech only games do? They would be somewhere between "open pump" and "open". I doubt anyone would notice the difference in game play or format. We would play the exact same game with different equipment. Same tactics, same strategies, just different markers.

What are my thoughts on this matter? Limit paint by... *gasp* limiting paint. Rather than saying you can't use your electro, your mech-semi, your open class pump, your AT phantom or any other piece of equipment limit how much paint can be brought on the field. Say 400 rounds per player or some such. Want to make it really interesting and develop team "positions"? Limit it by team rather than player. Want to enforce standard "places" on the field allow X amount of tubes in certain positions. Rather than wearing pod packs allow each spot on the field to have pods in it to start. That is to say the back stand ups might have 5 tubes in each one (color coded so they cannot be moved) while the fifty might have a single pod. I think if we want to change the game (without wholesale changes to the field) we could do so simply by limiting paint in various formats.

[skipdogg]

I personally like the mech only idea cause I have the fondest memories of that from back in the day. So its more for nostolgia. The only technical debate I would have I guess for using mech's would be, I like the idea of having to pull the trigger each time you want to shoot a ball. for the most part, thats what mechs make you do. The whole rate of fire debate is not my issue.
The last two tournaments I played in I used a CCM pump. One of them we took first, and the other we made the cut to finals and finished fourth. So having 12.5bps coming at my head isnt really a concern of mine.

[going_home]

We do that around here to some extent.
You can only bring on the field what will fit in your hopper.
We call it hopper ball.
Its the most fun you can have on a paintball field imho.


;)

[koleah]

Mech only wouldn't really work because of pneumatic triggers getting down in to the double digit gram weight resistance force, and the associated speeds that those can be reached by walking the trigger.

Limit on paint is probably the easiest and most straight forward to enforce. Everyone gets one standard hopper (no Pinocchios). Standard meaning around 200. I'm sure there are some hoppers that are 210-220ish, but most are based around 200.

[koleah]

Wait, are you talking about competitions, or Saturday walk-on games?

Cuz I think the 200-ball limit would be great for Saturday walk-on games, to help bring down the differential between a guy with plenty of dough who walks out there carrying 1200 rounds and the latest gun, and the newbie who is playing for the first time with his non-agitating hopper and fogging goggles.

The "pro" can run out his 200 rounds in the first 20 seconds, but then what. Quit, or play on with no paint. It would force him to move and continue moving, and relying more on tactics and good shots instead of just raining paint at any random 2-inch hole in a bunker that one of 150 paintballs might make it through to eliminate the other player.

Although I do understand the fields make their money by selling paint, but sometimes it just seems that there needs to be something done to even out the walk-on games. And a paint limit would be a pretty simple way to do it.




As far as comps, I don't know. Never played a comp, don't really care.

[GoatBoy]

This is a chupacabra.

No batteries (including hopper), no full auto, no excessively reactive triggers.

With that in place: how many of you have seen a purely mech marker go hosebeast *in game*.

I'm not talking about some shooting video you saw online.

I'm talking about an actual game.

If they did... was it effective?

I think many of you are preoccupied with some fear, the nature and origin of which I do not understand.

I do not believe in a paint limit; if someone wants to strap 2 cases onto their back, then by all means let them. The amount of paint someone is carrying has never concerned me, only the effective ROF he can achieve. Mech-only *will* limit this.

Most players probably won't even opt for any crazy bouncing or pneutrigger setups. I run a Q-Loader for the profile, not for the ROF.

And if you do want to try to do it through paint limit, it should be 150, or a loosely packed standard hopper.

[Justus]

This is a chupacabra.

No batteries (including hopper), no full auto, no excessively reactive triggers.

With that in place: how many of you have seen a purely mech marker go hosebeast *in game*.

I'm not talking about some shooting video you saw online.

I'm talking about an actual game.

If they did... was it effective?

I think many of you are preoccupied with some fear, the nature and origin of which I do not understand.

I do not believe in a paint limit; if someone wants to strap 2 cases onto their back, then by all means let them. The amount of paint someone is carrying has never concerned me, only the effective ROF he can achieve. Mech-only *will* limit this.

Most players probably won't even opt for any crazy bouncing or pneutrigger setups. I run a Q-Loader for the profile, not for the ROF.

And if you do want to try to do it through paint limit, it should be 150, or a loosely packed standard hopper.

Why go through all this process to limit out certain equipment if the goal is to simply limit the ROF? Let me use my Rotor and ETac, and tell me that we're limiting the ROF to 8 bps and leave it at that. I'll set my ROF cap in the firmware, just like a lot of other modern electro markers.

This whole nonsense about "no batteries even in the hopper" has me puzzled. All that does is nearly guarantee that the only people who aren't going to experience chops are the people with pumps or low-force bolts.

If you're going to stick to the "battery free" mantra to limit the ROF, I'm just going to break out the Q-loader. You want to take away my reactive trigger? I'll do it with a ULT pneumag. My point is, of course, that limiting equipment along terms such as this will never achieve the desired effect; simply stating the desired effect will have much more of an impact. Let people use what they want as long as they play within the effect limits.

[OPBN]

With that in place: how many of you have seen a purely mech marker go hosebeast *in game*. Yep. I've done so with both an RT'd /cycloned 98Custom and XValved Mag with 1100psi output 88ci tank. I don't do it often, but being big old and fairly slow I tend to lend suppression fire. Even without paint the sound of that thing ripping will keep heads down and allow people on my team to move up.

If they did... was it effective? Yep. Probably doesnt hurt that the barrel I used is particularly loud as well.

.Yep.

[Lohman446]

This conversation is why I really have no interested in "mech only" games (or for that matter open class pump).

It does not change the game. I might as well play with ramping electros as the game experience is virtually the same.

One of the things AO is guitly of IMO is a desire for "mech only games" not to change the game format or play style but to give those shootings mags a technical advantage through ROF.

[BTAutoMag]

sometimes I like to go in a game with my minimag barrel just to screw with peoples minds.

I have a meeting today to discuss a mech tourney. this is just a proof of concept talk. details later :headbang:

[Shane-O-Mac]

Maybe the limit is ONE battery, and it can only power ONE piece of gear. So you have a mech gun with a motorized loader OR an electro with a shake and bake. And also no pneumatic triggers, or loaders.

OR a game where everyone uses a rental gun, that is actually fun!

[GoatBoy]

Why go through all this process to limit out certain equipment if the goal is to simply limit the ROF? Let me use my Rotor and ETac, and tell me that we're limiting the ROF to 8 bps and leave it at that. I'll set my ROF cap in the firmware, just like a lot of other modern electro markers.

This whole nonsense about "no batteries even in the hopper" has me puzzled. All that does is nearly guarantee that the only people who aren't going to experience chops are the people with pumps or low-force bolts.

It's pretty simple. "No batteries" means simply that. No batteries. I do not think that this is an unreasonable thing to attempt.


If you're going to stick to the "battery free" mantra to limit the ROF, I'm just going to break out the Q-loader. You want to take away my reactive trigger? I'll do it with a ULT pneumag. My point is, of course, that limiting equipment along terms such as this will never achieve the desired effect; simply stating the desired effect will have much more of an impact. Let people use what they want as long as they play within the effect limits.

I would love to see that, honestly. It would be neat to see how far people can take true semi auto mech only in a *real game*. The problem is you're still talking *hypothetical*. "Don't make me pull this out!" Go ahead and do it, make it happen, record the video, and tell us how it *really* went down. I mean, literally, please do it. There are no in-game pneumag videos on youtube that I could find, which is a travesty. All I find are "shooting vids". I saw your RT mag video, and that was great, but where are the damn in-game pneumag videos?

Pneu triggers aren't foolproof; you're waving this idea around like it's some ultimate nullifier. They aren't common, and it's difficult to sustain the speed and walking cadence with them, to the point where I think it is arguably once again a matter of skill to use it properly *in a real game*. Plus you won't have any ramping. And yes, you do have to use it on a gun with a force feed and even an anti-chop to make it worthwhile. That's... kind of the point.

I guess the difference between us is I'd like to see that happen. You're threatening me with something I actually *want* to see. As someone who has always loved to see what people did with their guns since the early days, I'd love to see someone go through all that just to make it happen. It's going to involve some sacrifices, like switching to a Q-loader, quite a bit of hard work and tweaking on both the pneu system as well as the LX bolt, a bit of money, and ultimately will still require some amount of good old fashioned skill to bring it all together in a real game.

I have run across one pneumag, in-game, in all my years. As it happened to turn out, he was another AO member. He was a good player, the pneumag wasn't overpowering, I was running a literal "no batteries" setup, and I'd love to do it again because it was *fun*. Truthfully, it probably boils down to what kind of people such games attract. That's the kind of player that makes paintball fun in for me.

And again, some people will go the full pneumag route, and hats off to them. They'll probably be in the minority, and most interested people may very well just opt for more modest setups.

And in the worst case, if you feel the rules really are that dumb, then you may feel free not to play.

But there are some of us that would like to give the idea a chance.



Yep.

I think you missed the part where overly reactive triggers are disallowed. How good are you without the RT trigger?




C'mon folks. HOW GOOD ARE YOU WITHOUT BATTERIES?

[skipdogg]

This conversation is why I really have no interested in "mech only" games (or for that matter open class pump).

It does not change the game. I might as well play with ramping electros as the game experience is virtually the same.

One of the things AO is guitly of IMO is a desire for "mech only games" not to change the game format or play style but to give those shootings mags a technical advantage through ROF.


I think your overthinking this. On a national scale then points made on this post may be valid. however, for a local field to do this whether its a tournament or open game, you are going to get 90% tippmanns and spyder/pirahna's. So most of the technicalities debated here on ROF are irrelevant.

[OPBN]

I think you missed the part where overly reactive triggers are disallowed. How good are you without the RT trigger?

I guess I did. Disallowing reactive triggers would lessen the hosing depending on your definition.

As for your question about how good I am without a RT? I never claimed to be good either way actually. Simply expressing how I utilize a reactive trigger.

[Justus]

So a guy comes to the field with a Qloaded pneumag. Then you're going to say "okay, no pneumatic triggers" or "okay, no spring-loaded hoppers". Do we really need page after page of equipment limitations?

My point was that you stated in your post that the goal of making the rules "battery free" was to limit the ROF. But "battery free" will not achieve that goal, and I've shown a couple examples of how that plays out. My RT video showed an effectively "battery free" setup shooting 20.5 BPS in a game, and it was purely by accident.

Why make rules for a desired goal with the knowledge that there are loopholes that people can and will exploit? Just say that the game will have a limited ROF and be done with it.

Of course if you've now changed your tune, and instead are wanting to make these rules to encourage mechanical innovation, then I'll point out that it's not necessary to set some people up for failure in an actual game. Just post a contest to see it happen. That way the people who use a shake & bake with a blowback Tippmann don't get pasted and leave feeling like they got cheated. See below...


I think your overthinking this. On a national scale then points made on this post may be valid. however, for a local field to do this whether its a tournament or open game, you are going to get 90% tippmanns and spyder/pirahna's. So most of the technicalities debated here on ROF are irrelevant.
So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

Anyone can say "if you think it's dumb then don't play", but how far do you take it? If people are informed ahead of time to expect that a certain number of people on the field will have a huge firepower advantage due to their ability to legally exploit the rules, you can rest assured that the interest level will drop dramatically.


OR a game where everyone uses a rental gun, that is actually fun!
This would actually work. Instead of making vague limitations on equipment that fail assure an even playing field... just issue standardized equipment in the first place.


But nobody who is proposing the "mech only" rules as a way to limit the ROF has even addressed my point: Why not just have a simple rule limiting ROF if that's the actual goal? If 12.5 bps PSP ramping is too much, make the limit 8 bps semi-only. Any other set of rules that is proposed to achieve that goal, without actually setting the ROF limit, just leads to exploitation based upon the known ambiguity.

[Lohman446]

So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

And this is why I look at the call for "mech-only" games on this board with a bit of skepticism. Those calling loudest for it (assuming most people on this board own mags) are also those who would most likely see the largest perceived avantage. I wonder if its really coincidental.

[skipdogg]

So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

If you think a RT mag against a mech spyder is a slaughter then I find that funny. Like I said I play pump versus electros,....so maybe my view is jaded. If you live in a area where your local field can hold a mech only event and all the players that show up are trying to find loopholes in the mech intent, then you live in a interesting place. I still stand by my position that at nearly ALL of 'your' local fields, 90%+ that would show up to a mech only event have spyders, etc. And holy heck if experience and skill wouldn't be the best determination of who gets slaughtered.

[cockerpunk]

people are way too concerned with what guns the other team has.

wanna play pump, play with a pump. want to play mech, do it. what gun the other guy has shouldn't make any difference at all to you.

playing a 3 man tournament with all pump guns:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/Paintball/1188776177_img_6916.jpg

stop worry about what the other team shoots, and play.

[skipdogg]

people are way too concerned with what guns the other team has.

wanna play pump, play with a pump. want to play mech, do it. what gun the other guy has shouldn't make any difference at all to you.


Agreed.

[Lohman446]

I think the advantage of rate of fire is overstated unless we are talking getting down to stock class (rock and cock) rate of fire. That is why I ultimately think "mech only" tournaments are "meh". They result in no different game than what is played in a standard tournament with the exception of possible paint breakage issues.

Now I think the identical provided equipment idea is interesting

[OPBN]

See, this is where the thread is veering a bit off from what I thought was originally being discussed in the other thread that got move here. I am interested in an Old School marker game where the older the better marker is brought out and encouraged. Giving out awards for rarest makers, oldest marker etc. If you had enough guys getting together to have a squad of Mag guys going against a squad of Cocker guys and such. I really could care less about mech, electro or whatever, I would like to just see a game with some really old cool markers on the field. I recently went to a CPPL gathering at a localish field and was actually surprised at some of the markers brought out. At one point, there was me with my Mag, another guy with a Palmers, 2-3 guys with cockers and some dude with an old Pro Carbine. Afterwards, we all were in the staging area admiring each others markers and such. It was cool.

[Lohman446]

See, this is where the thread is veering a bit off from what I thought was originally being discussed in the other thread that got move here. I am interested in an Old School marker game where the older the better marker is brought out and encouraged. Giving out awards for rarest makers, oldest marker etc. If you had enough guys getting together to have a squad of Mag guys going against a squad of Cocker guys and such. I really could care less about mech, electro or whatever, I would like to just see a game with some really old cool markers on the field. I recently went to a CPPL gathering at a localish field and was actually surprised at some of the markers brought out. At one point, there was me with my Mag, another guy with a Palmers, 2-3 guys with cockers and some dude with an old Pro Carbine. Afterwards, we all were in the staging area admiring each others markers and such. It was cool.

Is it possible to run a game with only markers that were in production pre-2000 (or pick a year)? If your goal is to have nostalgic markers why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?

[BTAutoMag]

I like that, a prize for "best vintage marker"

[Justus]

Is it possible to run a game with only markers that were in production pre-2000 (or pick a year)? If your goal is to have nostalgic markers why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?

Take this a step further:

If your goal is ______________________________ why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?


Just fill in the blank.

[Lohman446]

Take this a step further:

If your goal is ______________________________ why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?


Just fill in the blank.

I don't think that is an unreasonable concept. That being said there are technical limitiations. How do you enforce a ROF cap for instance on mech markers?

[BTAutoMag]

hand it to a ref and put it over a chrono. most do a measure of BPS... then you turn down the air pressure :p

[Lohman446]

hand it to a ref and put it over a chrono. most do a measure of BPS... then you turn down the air pressure :p

So we are testing the max BPS the ref can get over the chrono? What if the ref is really good at walking the trigger an I am not?

[athomas]

OR a game where everyone uses a rental gun, that is actually fun!I bought my first ever paintball gun so that I wouldn't have to use a rental. The rentals were loose and it was hit or miss as to whether the balls went straight. With my own equipment, I could change barrels to fit the balls and know that I was depending on reliability due to my own maintenance regime and not relying on roughly used rental equipment.



I like Semi only games. I stay away from the mech only idea, because it limits the guy that only has one gun that he saved up form and it happens to be electronic. In general games, the refs just have to be more vigilant to stop guys from abusing reactive triggers. If a gun is found to be ramping or easily goes full auto due to a reactive trigger, then it gets pulled from the game. In tournaments that area gets clouded so it doesn't work. In tournaments, you can stipulate a more stringent set of rules though, for other limiting areas.

A high rate of fire never bothered me. I play X-ball, so it is expected and you get used to high rates of fire zinging past your head on a regular basis. Its a bit more intimidating for players that are new or don't have the speedball experience.

[BTAutoMag]

I ment for RT effect. its how they used to do tourneys. if the refs could bounce your trigger over a certain BPS youd be DQed

[Lohman446]

I ment for RT effect. its how they used to do tourneys. if the refs could bounce your trigger over a certain BPS youd be DQed

What tournies? Prior to PSP allowing ramping and instituting a non-enforceable (at the time) ROF cap the rule was one shot one pull and no trigger bounce. There was no BPS limit and no good way of measuring BPS accurately (the big red chronos claimed it but did not do it) Only recently has the technology gotten good enough to handily check for ROF reliably.

There was no bounce allowed at any of the PSP events I was playing at.

[cockerpunk]

See, this is where the thread is veering a bit off from what I thought was originally being discussed in the other thread that got move here. I am interested in an Old School marker game where the older the better marker is brought out and encouraged. Giving out awards for rarest makers, oldest marker etc. If you had enough guys getting together to have a squad of Mag guys going against a squad of Cocker guys and such. I really could care less about mech, electro or whatever, I would like to just see a game with some really old cool markers on the field. I recently went to a CPPL gathering at a localish field and was actually surprised at some of the markers brought out. At one point, there was me with my Mag, another guy with a Palmers, 2-3 guys with cockers and some dude with an old Pro Carbine. Afterwards, we all were in the staging area admiring each others markers and such. It was cool.

sounds like you just need a group of players that are fun to play with, more then you need a classic marker rule. on any given rec day around here there is everything from SC pumps to the newest and fastest.

[athomas]

I ment for RT effect. its how they used to do tourneys. if the refs could bounce your trigger over a certain BPS youd be DQedI remember that, but it was for bounce more than bps.

[Freedy500]

Okay I am not siding with either sides of any of this ROF loopholes thing (although Qloaders are not difficult and unfair!!) but what about this. You alert everyone ahead of time that it is CO2 only. Bam. Some of you may not like it but if you look at it, it would be the easiest and simplest way to keep down ROF and amount of paint in the air. And this wouldn't be difficult because I hope that most of us still have our old CO2 valves lying around somewhere. ;) and if not they are very cheap. When using CO2 there is no walking the trigger, there is no RT effect and most especially there is some shoot-down depending on whether you changed up the trigger pull to be insanely light on a CO2 valve.

This would be great in my point of view as not everyone is being forced to use a rental marker and they still get to keep their custom gear. I will never use a rental as whenever I walk around with one I feel exposed and out in the open, I feel uncomfortable for some reason.

Benifits
-No high ROF
-Performance playing field is largely evened out
-Does not ban any equipment except for HPA tanks.

Downsides
-No high ROF
-You cant run a slaughterhouse :shooting:

Just thought to express my point of view although I am nearly the heavy gunner you described. I carry almost a case of paint on me (1600 shots) on field with a 90/45 1100 psi output. But I am not rolling in $$$. I am able to easily control my ROF and I dont use it often. I never buy more than a case a day (exceptions on big games) and my technological abilities do not come without a downside. My vest is not exactly lightweight as I carry 15 Qpods in it (using Q is heavier if you use a lot of them) and quite a few more 140 pods for my friends as I have been dubbed the human pack mule :D I carry all of this because I enjoy staying out in the field as long as possible and not having to worry about the efficiency of my equipment holding me back. Not to spray and pray on rental users.

[OPBN]

Is it possible to run a game with only markers that were in production pre-2000 (or pick a year)? If your goal is to have nostalgic markers why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?
I wasnt.

[cockerpunk]

Okay I am not siding with either sides of any of this ROF loopholes thing (although Qloaders are not difficult and unfair!!) but what about this. You alert everyone ahead of time that it is CO2 only. Bam. Some of you may not like it but if you look at it, it would be the easiest and simplest way to keep down ROF and amount of paint in the air. And this wouldn't be difficult because I hope that most of us still have our old CO2 valves lying around somewhere. ;) and if not they are very cheap. When using CO2 there is no walking the trigger, there is no RT effect and most especially there is some shoot-down depending on whether you changed up the trigger pull to be insanely light on a CO2 valve.

This would be great in my point of view as not everyone is being forced to use a rental marker and they still get to keep their custom gear. I will never use a rental as whenever I walk around with one I feel exposed and out in the open, I feel uncomfortable for some reason.

Benifits
-No high ROF
-Performance playing field is largely evened out
-Does not ban any equipment except for HPA tanks.

Downsides
-No high ROF
-You cant run a slaughterhouse :shooting:

Just thought to express my point of view although I am nearly the heavy gunner you described. I carry almost a case of paint on me (1600 shots) on field with a 90/45 1100 psi output. But I am not rolling in $$$. I am able to easily control my ROF and I dont use it often. I never buy more than a case a day (exceptions on big games) and my technological abilities do not come without a downside. My vest is not exactly lightweight as I carry 15 Qpods in it (using Q is heavier if you use a lot of them) and quite a few more 140 pods for my friends as I have been dubbed the human pack mule :D I carry all of this because I enjoy staying out in the field as long as possible and not having to worry about the efficiency of my equipment holding me back. Not to spray and pray on rental users.

you can run co2 in most any gun without issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M6wM0KHWNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_jKjhWzYQk&feature=watch_response

[Freedy500]

you can run co2 in most any gun without issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M6wM0KHWNM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_jKjhWzYQk&feature=watch_response
Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

[GoatBoy]

So a guy comes to the field with a Qloaded pneumag. Then you're going to say "okay, no pneumatic triggers" or "okay, no spring-loaded hoppers".

No I’m not. Go ahead and bring it.



Why make rules for a desired goal with the knowledge that there are loopholes that people can and will exploit? Just say that the game will have a limited ROF and be done with it.

Of course if you've now changed your tune, and instead are wanting to make these rules to encourage mechanical innovation, then I'll point out that it's not necessary to set some people up for failure in an actual game. Just post a contest to see it happen. That way the people who use a shake & bake with a blowback Tippmann don't get pasted and leave feeling like they got cheated. See below...

And I think it will limit the ROF. Tune hasn’t changed. Without RT (and that was a long a standing rule, back when there literally was nothing but mech available in the first place), I believe it works.

It takes a certain amount of work to get through that “loophole” if you want to call it that. And if they go through that, I would actually be OK with it. They have to expend non-negligible effort to get there and to actually make it work, as opposed to just talking about it in the forums or making “shooting videos”. I mean, seriously, how many Q-Loaded pneumags are there running around out in the wild?

Also I think you should let the Tippmann players speak for themselves. Are you one of them?


So you're okay with that remaining 10% having a huge, game-changing advantage? That's not a level playing field, that's a setup for a slaughter.

Funny, you just described normal recball.

You still play recball, right? Even at the risk of someone bringing an electro or an excessively bouncing RT?

Oh, wait, you’re one of the guys that brings those kinds of guns to recball...

Hrm.


Anyone can say "if you think it's dumb then don't play", but how far do you take it? If people are informed ahead of time to expect that a certain number of people on the field will have a huge firepower advantage due to their ability to legally exploit the rules, you can rest assured that the interest level will drop dramatically.

You mean like normal recball?

I think that this thread is evidence that it doesn’t need to be taken any further. The rules as I would envision them are working as intended.


This would actually work. Instead of making vague limitations on equipment that fail assure an even playing field... just issue standardized equipment in the first place.

And that’s fine too. If you want to have an all standardized gun game, that’s fine. Knock yourself out. We’ve actually talked about doing that at our field as well. In fact I played with a Tippmann with a shake and bake in just normal open rec play earlier this year (field owner was curious to see how I would play without my normal marker). Then I did it again with a BT-4 with Prophecy (and I think I would have been better off with a shake and bake on that one) against a bunch of electros because a friend and I had kind of a debate going.

I didn’t get “pasted” or feel cheated, even against electros on the airball field. I took 1 hit to the hopper because I’m not used to hoppers. I forgot to turn on the hopper another game (because I’m not used to hoppers), and then the BT-4 finally just up and died on one game. No pasting or cheating, I just hated that gun. I didn't hate the fact that the others were using electros.


But nobody who is proposing the "mech only" rules as a way to limit the ROF has even addressed my point: Why not just have a simple rule limiting ROF if that's the actual goal? If 12.5 bps PSP ramping is too much, make the limit 8 bps semi-only. Any other set of rules that is proposed to achieve that goal, without actually setting the ROF limit, just leads to exploitation based upon the known ambiguity.

I can’t tell you to not have a simple rule like that because it’s perfectly fine. You can have that rule if you want. I’m not saying you can’t. If you want your own game with your own rules, feel free to do so. I’d be happy to play that game too.


If your goal is ______________________________ why try to accomplish that through a rule that does not directly address it?


This one’s easy.

The goal is to see how well people play without batteries or RT triggers. Therefore, the rule is to not allow batteries or RT triggers.

How’s that?

Look, if you don’t get it, that’s fine, don’t worry about it. You don’t have to play. Play an electro/ROF/paint limited game if you like. I think some of the old schoolers get it, and some of the Rampy McReactivetriggersteinovichs won’t and will stay away. No harm, no foul.

I think the biggest limiting factor for turnout isn’t the fear of a Q-Loaded Rainbow Laser Shooting Mech Pneumag Unicorn, it’s what athomas mentioned -- there are a lot of players that indeed sink everything into their electros and just don’t have enough scratch to find a good mech that they would actually like. Sure, they could pick up a cheap crappy mech, but between playing with a crappy mech and not playing at all, they’d probably sooner not play at all, especially if normal play is available to them anyways. I know quite a few players like this. And I can’t blame them.

[cockerpunk]

Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

you were already corrected in the post you were responding to. you can, if you want to, run co2 through most if not all current high end guns, with less then 100 bucks in parts, if not bone stock already.

[Freedy500]

you were already corrected in the post you were responding to. you can, if you want to, run co2 through most if not all current high end guns, with less then 100 bucks in parts, if not bone stock already.
Well nevermind then. Dang I thought I had a good idea :( If I was right then it would have been perfect and easy to enforce. Worth a shot. I gotta keep up with electro's :tard:

[Justus]

No I’m not. Go ahead and bring it.

It takes a certain amount of work to get through that “loophole” if you want to call it that. And if they go through that, I would actually be OK with it. They have to expend non-negligible effort to get there and to actually make it work, as opposed to just talking about it in the forums or making “shooting videos”. I mean, seriously, how many Q-Loaded pneumags are there running around out in the wild?
It started off as simply "mech only", with no batteries even for the hopper. (http://automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2813450&postcount=24) When I pointed out that a qloaded X-valve Mag would still have an absurdly high rate of fire (and even posted a video to prove it), you changed the rules to include "no excessively reactive trigger". (http://automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2813652&postcount=6) I've got a pneumag in the works, just need the time and cash to put together the remaining parts. They're really not as uncommon as you make them out to be. Sure, qloaders are uncommon right now, but that's because people have always been free to use battery-powered hoppers that are much easier to set up and use. But my point is that if you create a game whereby a certain set of equipment has the advantage, then people will build it as it becomes their priority. As that happens, I can foresee another rule revision to exclude spring loaded or pneumatic hoppers and triggers. Otherwise, the rules really have no purpose if the goal is to limit ROF.


And I think it will limit the ROF. Tune hasn’t changed. Without RT (and that was a long a standing rule, back when there literally was nothing but mech available in the first place), I believe it works.
...
This one’s easy.
The goal is to see how well people play without batteries or RT triggers. Therefore, the rule is to not allow batteries or RT triggers.
How’s that?
So the goal did change. First it was mech only to limit ROF. Now it's to simply play without batteries or RT triggers.

You want to have a game where the only purpose is to play without batteries and RT triggers, that's fine. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and asking the question, "with xyz setup, what's actually changed about the gameplay?" If nothing... then what's the point of telling someone else what they can or can't play with?


Also I think you should let the Tippmann players speak for themselves. Are you one of them?
I run a field where the rentals are shake & bake Alpha Blacks, and I ran an A5 marker before I got into Mags. I still have a 98 Custom in my gearbag as a backup/loaner, and some games I'll roll out with nothing but my TPX. So, yeah, I kinda am one of them.


Funny, you just described normal recball.
You still play recball, right? Even at the risk of someone bringing an electro or an excessively bouncing RT?
Oh, wait, you’re one of the guys that brings those kinds of guns to recball...
Hrm.
Yeah, I play recball. Try to at least monthly. There's usually a pretty good mix of modern electros, RT's and blowbacks. Some people use pumps, others use ramping - and it's all by choice, not by any certain set of rules. If I use my ETac rather than my pump or TPX, I have it set at 10 to 12 bps limit, semi auto, and I honestly don't shoot any faster than the blowbacks - primarily because I've never been good at walking the trigger and refuse to use ramping. Because I run a field it's my first priority to make sure the walk-ons have fun and are excited about returning to play again. If you're trying to insinuate that I shoot ropes on people with rental markers simply because I have the possibility of a ROF advantage, think again.

And no, when I warned about the huge playing-field gap that will result from your proposed rules, I wasn't describing anything remotely like recball, which has players at both extremes and also dispersed throughout the middle of the ROF spectrum because they all have the ability to choose what equipment setups they want to use.


I think the biggest limiting factor for turnout isn’t the fear of a Q-Loaded Rainbow Laser Shooting Mech Pneumag Unicorn, it’s what athomas mentioned -- there are a lot of players that indeed sink everything into their electros and just don’t have enough scratch to find a good mech that they would actually like. Sure, they could pick up a cheap crappy mech, but between playing with a crappy mech and not playing at all, they’d probably sooner not play at all, especially if normal play is available to them anyways. I know quite a few players like this. And I can’t blame them.
Yeah, of course this is a good point, aside from the implication that a pneumag is like a unicorn. I mean, c'mon, you can buy a bolt-on sleeper frame pretty easily if you just look in the BST from time to time. And you don't even need a pneumag. A finely tuned ULT is darn near walkable by itself. But, I digress. What athomas said ties right in with my point - if the purpose is to limit the ROF, then just allow people to limit their ROF and use their desired equipment. You'll get your gameplay change without prohibiting people from using the equipment that they prefer and have invested in.


I can’t tell you to not have a simple rule like that because it’s perfectly fine. You can have that rule if you want. I’m not saying you can’t. If you want your own game with your own rules, feel free to do so. I’d be happy to play that game too.
I don't "want my own game", I'm simply trying to further the discussion on some possible alternate game formats and what I believe will work, and what I believe will ultimately not do enough to make any noticeable difference.

[Lohman446]

Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.

Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.

AKA, IIRC, said that an anti-siphon CO2 tank attached to a Palmers stabilizer was just acceptable to use in a Viking. This is why you have to actually write rules to accomplish what you mean to accomplish because otherwise someone will "side step" what you were trying to do with a creative solution. I would guess the electro-Blazer would have no issue

For the record the old PSP and NPPL rules required that loaders have some gravity portion in them - the warp was questionable if it met the rules requirements. For some reason the HALO was given a pass.

[Freedy500]

damn loop-holes :(

[GoatBoy]

It started off as simply "mech only", with no batteries even for the hopper. (http://automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2813450&postcount=24) When I pointed out that a qloaded X-valve Mag would still have an absurdly high rate of fire (and even posted a video to prove it), you changed the rules to include "no excessively reactive trigger". (http://automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2813652&postcount=6) I've got a pneumag in the works, just need the time and cash to put together the remaining parts. They're really not as uncommon as you make them out to be. Sure, qloaders are uncommon right now, but that's because people have always been free to use battery-powered hoppers that are much easier to set up and use. But my point is that if you create a game whereby a certain set of equipment has the advantage, then people will build it as it becomes their priority. As that happens, I can foresee another rule revision to exclude spring loaded or pneumatic hoppers and triggers. Otherwise, the rules really have no purpose if the goal is to limit ROF.

That’s my point. The number of Q-Loaded pneumags out running in the wild, as far as I can tell, is currently: 0.5. The half of one that you haven’t even finished yet. It will take some amount of tinkering and tweaking, and I’m betting when you field that thing, it won’t make that much a difference because there is a certain amount of *operator skill* that’s still necessary to make it work out in-game.

If I were running the game, I’d be all for you bringing that gun.

Once you’ve finished it.


So the goal did change. First it was mech only to limit ROF. Now it's to simply play without batteries or RT triggers.

Yes, this “started off as mech only”. Mech only means without batteries. Goal didn’t change. Goal started out as: mech only, and it ended up as: mech only. There are some effects that I’ve tried to outline, but they’re not sinking in so it’s simplest to say: mech only means no batteries. How I am perceived as vacillating, I have no idea. Mech only. Real simple.

The non-bouncing RT rule has been in place for a long, long time. I find it shameful that people actually have to be reminded of it. The old timers around here remember it. Shameful.


You want to have a game where the only purpose is to play without batteries and RT triggers, that's fine. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and asking the question, "with xyz setup, what's actually changed about the gameplay?" If nothing... then what's the point of telling someone else what they can or can't play with?

And that’s part of the problem. You perceive zero change in gameplay. And I think that is simply a reflection of the way you play. And it’s not something someone else will be able to explain to you.


I run a field where the rentals are shake & bake Alpha Blacks, and I ran an A5 marker before I got into Mags. I still have a 98 Custom in my gearbag as a backup/loaner, and some games I'll roll out with nothing but my TPX. So, yeah, I kinda am one of them.

Great, excellent. So as one of these operators, do you personally feel pasted/cheated when you step out into a game where someone else has an overwhelming advantage? If not, why would you think someone else would feel the same way?


If I use my ETac rather than my pump or TPX, I have it set at 10 to 12 bps limit, semi auto, and I honestly don't shoot any faster than the blowbacks - primarily because I've never been good at walking the trigger

There’s that *operator skill* component I keep referring to. If you can’t walk an electro, good luck successfully walking a pneu. Please, bring forth the Q-Loaded pneumag for all to witness, in-game.

Once you’ve finished it.


Because I run a field it's my first priority to make sure the walk-ons have fun and are excited about returning to play again. If you're trying to insinuate that I shoot ropes on people with rental markers simply because I have the possibility of a ROF advantage, think again.

Then... why... would you... post... a video of yourself actually doing so?

And if you wouldn’t do it (despite video evidence), why would you assume someone else would?

I mean, in the context where bunch of guys are going, “Hey, let’s all switch to mech and play a few games”, whipping out a video of you hunkered in the back of what appears to be a rec game ripping a string into a bunch of nothing isn’t exactly a highlight. There’s just something very … I don’t even know what the right word for this is.

If I had a video of myself doing that, I would quietly bury it somewhere where nobody would ever find it.


And no, when I warned about the huge playing-field gap that will result from your proposed rules, I wasn't describing anything remotely like recball, which has players at both extremes and also dispersed throughout the middle of the ROF spectrum because they all have the ability to choose what equipment setups they want to use.

So the huge gap in a mech-only game would be larger than the huge gap in a recball game where everything else is allowed.

Uhh....


Yeah, of course this is a good point, aside from the implication that a pneumag is like a unicorn. I mean, c'mon, you can buy a bolt-on sleeper frame pretty easily if you just look in the BST from time to time. And you don't even need a pneumag. A finely tuned ULT is darn near walkable by itself.

You are absolutely right! You sure can! Show us how damn near overpowering a damn near walkable ULT is, in game.

Once you’ve finished it.


I don't "want my own game", I'm simply trying to further the discussion on some possible alternate game formats and what I believe will work, and what I believe will ultimately not do enough to make any noticeable difference.

Great, you’ve stated your *beliefs*.

Now let’s validate them.

[Justus]

Meh, the rants are getting too long and off focus. Edited this post out in an effort to stop the landslide. Do whatever you feel will work, GoatBoy, and good luck with it. I sincerely hope people will end up playing within the spirit of your proposed rules.

[BTAutoMag]

wow
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/weaselboy13/i_love_this_thread.jpg

[Lohman446]

Yeah sure, let's do that. If you want a game that has a limited rate of fire, then just make a rule limiting the rate of fire. Anyone shooting more than X bps is cheating. It's quite simple and doesn't lead to loopholes. Sounds pretty valid to me. I haven't heard of any ways to exploit the rules to gain a legal advantage. You got anything?

How do you enforce a ROF cap on a mechanical marker? Just because player A can get it to do 15BPS does not mean player B or the ref has a chance. I think this is a major flaw in your reasoning

[Justus]

How do you enforce a ROF cap on a mechanical marker? Just because player A can get it to do 15BPS does not mean player B or the ref has a chance. I think this is a major flaw in your reasoning
Yeah, enforcement of the rule is an issue that would need to be hammered out. How do they enforce the ROF cap in PSP tournaments? I'd say start there, and work something out.

But the issue of enforcement isn't a major flaw in my reasoning, because it's already being done (see the aforementioned PSP tournament example). A flaw in the reasoning would have to be something that a player could legally exploit to gain an advantage.

[Justus]

wow
X

Yeah man. I feel ya. :cheers:

[Freedy500]

wow. And I thought my rants could get long. Sorry I am just giving up on this thread. To much to read and I am very lazy :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

[Lohman446]

Yeah, enforcement of the rule is an issue that would need to be hammered out. How do they enforce the ROF cap in PSP tournaments? I'd say start there, and work something out.

But the issue of enforcement isn't a major flaw in my reasoning, because it's already being done (see the aforementioned PSP tournament example). A flaw in the reasoning would have to be something that a player could legally exploit to gain an advantage.

The major difference is that legally set PSP ramping markers the ROF can be attained by virtually anyone. So a ref can readily check it. In a mech there is no software limiting it so a player may attain ROF a ref is not able to duplicate. Or a piano playing ref might disqualify every marker handed him.

[Shane-O-Mac]

In NPPL back when the RT came out, they used adjustable tank regs and NPPL limited them to 600psi input. That pretty much took care of crazy RT bounce.

[Justus]

The major difference is that legally set PSP ramping markers the ROF can be attained by virtually anyone. So a ref can readily check it. In a mech there is no software limiting it so a player may attain ROF a ref is not able to duplicate. Or a piano playing ref might disqualify every marker handed him.
Yeah, but I said to just make a rule limiting ROF, not make a mech-only rule. Maybe this means that mechs aren't allowed since there's no way of limiting the ROF?

Or, because there's no way of limiting the ROF on a mech, go ahead and allow it but disallow trigger bounce and also require mechs to have a certain trigger pull weight to be classified as legal. It's not a perfect rule, but probably better than eliminating all mech-only markers.

Any time the goal is to limit ROF, there's going to need to be multiple rules to achieve that and still allow the widest array of equipment choices. And this enforcement problem actually illustrates my point better, too - if the goal is to limit the ROF, then eliminating electros from participation is wholly unnecessary because it's actually easier to limit the ROF on an electro than it is a mech.

[OPBN]

In NPPL back when the RT came out, they used adjustable tank regs and NPPL limited them to 600psi input. That pretty much took care of crazy RT bounce.
And probably most Automags. None of my Mags will even operate that low.

[Lohman446]

Yeah, but I said to just make a rule limiting ROF, not make a mech-only rule. Maybe this means that mechs aren't allowed since there's no way of limiting the ROF?

Or, because there's no way of limiting the ROF on a mech, go ahead and allow it but disallow trigger bounce and also require mechs to have a certain trigger pull weight to be classified as legal. It's not a perfect rule, but probably better than eliminating all mech-only markers.

Any time the goal is to limit ROF, there's going to need to be multiple rules to achieve that and still allow the widest array of equipment choices. And this enforcement problem actually illustrates my point better, too - if the goal is to limit the ROF, then eliminating electros from participation is wholly unnecessary because it's actually easier to limit the ROF on an electro than it is a mech.

Haven't you just effectively "created" the tournaments that are readily available then?

If I want to go to an electro ROF limited tournament there are a tremendous amount to pick from.

I'm now lost to what your point was

[Justus]

Haven't you just effectively "created" the tournaments that are readily available then?

If I want to go to an electro ROF limited tournament there are a tremendous amount to pick from.

I'm now lost to what your point was

My point was that the idea of going "mech only" as a way to really limit down the ROF is seriously flawed. A simply "mech only" rule will not work to limit the ROF. If you want to honestly limit the ROF, then it's actually much easier to do with electros.

As for the ample amounts of tournaments that are already available, I was thinking that the goal was to get the ROF down lower than 12.5 bps with ramping. Make the rule 8 bps, no ramping. Make it whatever you want. Just don't think that having a "mech only" rule will solve the problem of ROF.

I guess when you get down to it, my point was to not have a silver bullet answer; it was to point out the problem with the "mech only" proposition. I have never been a proponent of anything other than saying "that (mech only) won't work to meet the goal (lower ROF)."

-------------------------
EDIT: When looking back over the thread, here's where I think it started:

What would mech only games do? They would be somewhere between "open pump" and "open". I doubt anyone would notice the difference in game play or format. We would play the exact same game with different equipment. Same tactics, same strategies, just different markers.

What are my thoughts on this matter? Limit paint by... *gasp* limiting paint.
My response: "Yeah, I agree"


I do not believe in a paint limit; if someone wants to strap 2 cases onto their back, then by all means let them. The amount of paint someone is carrying has never concerned me, only the effective ROF he can achieve. Mech-only *will* limit this.
My response: "No, it won't"

[Bear_Claw]

Honestly i think this is a lot easier to solve than you all make it out to be. Eliminate ramping. electro mech makes no difference one pull one fire. I have no issue with high rates of fire as long as it is accomplished by player skill not the programing on the guns bored. And pretty much all electros have a uncapped or capped semi auto mode.

The ideal of limited ammo i feel is intriguing as well hopper ball would offer a very different style/tactics of play.

And i also understand the premis of a all mech game for pure nostalgia point. But with guns like the newly coming GOG Enmey, and Tippmans Crossover (without a batt in mech mode), or the Tippmann Phenom i think you would not see the nostalgia you looking for. A best bet would be a limit on year of manufacture.

Another game i would love to see is just a big game cocker vs mag game.


I still play pump almost every time i play regardless who i playing against and what they shooting. I get shot out more than some but i still get out get a few eliminations and have a blast.

[Lohman446]

My point was that the idea of going "mech only" as a way to really limit down the ROF is seriously flawed. A simply "mech only" rule will not work to limit the ROF. If you want to honestly limit the ROF, then it's actually much easier to do with electros.

As for the ample amounts of tournaments that are already available, I was thinking that the goal was to get the ROF down lower than 12.5 bps with ramping. Make the rule 8 bps, no ramping. Make it whatever you want. Just don't think that having a "mech only" rule will solve the problem of ROF.

I guess when you get down to it, my point was to not have a silver bullet answer; it was to point out the problem with the "mech only" proposition. I have never been a proponent of anything other than saying "that (mech only) won't work to meet the goal (lower ROF)."


I think we just got turned around somewhere in the discussion. I think if we are attempting to limit paint instituting a paint limit (per player, per team, per tournament, per game, whatever) would be a lot easier (especially to enforce) then instituting a ROF cap.

[Justus]

I think we just got turned around somewhere in the discussion. I think if we are attempting to limit paint instituting a paint limit (per player, per team, per tournament, per game, whatever) would be a lot easier (especially to enforce) then instituting a ROF cap.
That's very true and I agree it would be much easier. It would probably even have the total effect of toning down the overall ROF on each game, as teams have to deal with the strategy of making most of their shots count for something. Of course, that's just a nice byproduct and not necessarily a goal, which makes the enforcement issue (when it comes to ROF) go away.

What would it take to get the gameplay level changed? An average of 200 rounds per player, distributed among a team however they feel necessary? That would be like a souped-up version of hopperball.

[Lohman446]

That's very true and I agree it would be much easier. It would probably even have the total effect of toning down the overall ROF on each game, as teams have to deal with the strategy of making most of their shots count for something. Of course, that's just a nice byproduct and not necessarily a goal, which makes the enforcement issue (when it comes to ROF) go away.

What would it take to get the gameplay level changed? An average of 200 rounds per player, distributed among a team however they feel necessary? That would be like a souped-up version of hopperball.

200, 400, 600? I'm not sure. I don't think we have to go down to the point of a single hoppers worth per player (be interesting though to see teams exploit that by giving the front guys 20 rounds or something freeing up a pod for the back players).

I don't know at what number it would start to influence game play but it would be something worth toying with. When I used to play tournaments I shot very little paint compared to others but going out with less than two pods made me feel like I was going to run out at any moment (though I seldom used the second one). This was in the era of a 15BPS ROF cap. Some of my back players would carry a case or very close to it.

[Justus]

200, 400, 600? I'm not sure. I don't think we have to go down to the point of a single hoppers worth per player (be interesting though to see teams exploit that by giving the front guys 20 rounds or something freeing up a pod for the back players).

I don't know at what number it would start to influence game play but it would be something worth toying with. When I used to play tournaments I shot very little paint compared to others but going out with less than two pods made me feel like I was going to run out at any moment (though I seldom used the second one). This was in the era of a 15BPS ROF cap. Some of my back players would carry a case or very close to it.
I played in a 3-man benefit tourney a few weeks back, using a high-cap Rotor and carrying 4 pods. After the first game I shucked the pods and just went out with a full hopper each time. Never ran out of paint. But, I didn't sit in back holding a lane the whole time either, I pushed up and only shot when attempting to get an elimination or keep a head down for movement.

It's an interesting concept. And I'd bet it works a whole lot differently in a woodsball game (which is 95% what I play). As a matter of fact, if it were in a woodsball game I'd be tempted to just go mag-fed with my TPX and let teammates provide the suppressive fire.

[Lohman446]

I played in a 3-man benefit tourney a few weeks back, using a high-cap Rotor and carrying 4 pods. After the first game I shucked the pods and just went out with a full hopper each time. Never ran out of paint. But, I didn't sit in back holding a lane the whole time either, I pushed up and only shot when attempting to get an elimination or keep a head down for movement.

It's an interesting concept. And I'd bet it works a whole lot differently in a woodsball game (which is 95% what I play). As a matter of fact, if it were in a woodsball game I'd be tempted to just go mag-fed with my TPX and let teammates provide the suppressive fire.

I seldom even opened the first pod and it was not abnormal for me to shoot 500 rounds during a tournament. However the worry about running out of paint bothered me.

[GoatBoy]

And i also understand the premis of a all mech game for pure nostalgia point. But with guns like the newly coming GOG Enmey, and Tippmans Crossover (without a batt in mech mode), or the Tippmann Phenom i think you would not see the nostalgia you looking for. A best bet would be a limit on year of manufacture.

I was wondering when these guns would come up. Indeed, these are real guns out in the wild right now (or are forthcoming in mass availability and affordability in the first’s case).

The eNMEy is single trigger, so you’re not walking that thing unless you change it, and even if you do, who knows how walkable it will really be. And if it shoots anything like a Vibe, which I do own (just for screwing around with; about to give it to a friend and be rid of it), then it’s not going to pose a problem. It’s a neat gun, don’t get me wrong. I just can’t see it being overpowered.

The mech mode of the Crossover has been described as "unwalkable". I've never seen one, so someone else should confirm this.

The Phenom also appears to be … difficult to walk in mech mode.

I don’t see any of these guns interfering with the spirit of a mech game.




If you’re going to limit paint, limit it to 150 per player. That's where things get interesting. An accurate player should easily get to about 20 balls per elimination, so that’s 7(.5) heads right there. Get better, or more realistically, if you only need to make say 3 eliminations to materially change the outcome of a game, then you’re handing 90 rounds per front player to your backing players.

[Bear_Claw]

I did not mean to instate that the new GOG or Tippmann markers would be overpowering. Just that if one of your goals was to have an old school game maybe mech only not the best option.

And for that matter if you limit year of manufacture of the marker you would then also limit rate of fire.

[Lohman446]

I did not mean to instate that the new GOG or Tippmann markers would be overpowering. Just that if one of your goals was to have an old school game maybe mech only not the best option.

And for that matter if you limit year of manufacture of the marker you would then also limit rate of fire.

To what year though. It would be interesting to see the Shoeboxes and Angels back on the field. Though I admit to not actually recalling when the first Angels came out... remember the single trigger Angels?

[Justus]

And for that matter if you limit year of manufacture of the marker you would then also limit rate of fire.
Stock markers only? What about modifications? Or, "piece it together" markers like 'Mags?

[Lohman446]

Stock markers only? What about modifications? Or, "piece it together" markers like 'Mags?

That is one of those reasons that while I love the idea I am not so sure it will work in practice. For instance is the intelliframe legal while the e-blade is not? Does it matter when it was first released? What about an early Angel with current Tadeo software?. If you do make the rule that it can only have parts and accessories produced before __________ who do you have on-hand who is expert enough to judge it.

What about o-rings? Do we all have to use old o-rings?

[BTAutoMag]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjm4n4umw1rn1xxfo1_400.gif

[Bear_Claw]

I think ya all overthinkin. Just set a manufacture date and let people play. If the point is a old school game with semi fire then keep that. And if you really worry about the used of up grades on the angles and shockers of the day. Then just extend the manufacture date to include the hopper you use as well dont care WHAT mode you have on your bored but if you shooting a 9v revi rate of fire will be fair.

But seriously people play pump vs semis and electros all the time a slightly higher rate of fire in semi is not as big an advantage as some of you seem to imply.

[Freedy500]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjm4n4umw1rn1xxfo1_400.gif
this :D

[Justus]

I think we've hit our internet meme limit for this thread. Better just lock it down. :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

You know how we could improve AO:

Whenever a discussion reaches a point that we don't like we can throw up some memes rather then just simply exiting it and allowing others to continue it.

That makes sense.

[BTAutoMag]

i think we should stage a game with splatt masters that have to be hand fed 1 ball at a time... and youre not allowed to carry the balls on your person. you have to wrestle them away from rabid squirrels mid game :rofl:

[Henchman]

Just saw this thread.
I would love to play limited paint games.
For example one pod per game.
So, you walk on the field. Empty your pod in your hopper. That's it.

Anybody who plays at SC village interested?