Pump Mag Opinions needed...

[Wacko]

Hi,

I'm in the middle of changing over to pump and would like a real honest opinion on the pump mag compared to other pump platforms. I have a sniper and I have a tendency of double feeding, but I know that should go away over time.

What is your honest opinion on a pump mag.... Is it worth 150 for a pump kit, 50 for milling, and 150 to 200 for a automag? Or is the ccm t2 that much better.

I was under the impression that pump mags have the smoothest pump pull and you don't need to hold the rod forward to fire consistently. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

[Nobody]

anyone can buy a CCM pump, how many people build a pump mag?

do something that will get you noticed, something that no one else has(or at least can't order).

also, check the detent and check the bore that you are using on your sniper, or try not using a force feed loader. though if you are using a forcefeed loader, you might have to change the detent to something stronger.

[Runamok]

I've HAD a pgp and phantom, they'er ok. I HAVE 2 Sterlings{old Bronzes} and A PUMP MAG. I love all three. My mag is by far the shortest & smoothest stroke.
http://imageshack.us/a/img96/1821/stermag0012.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img819/5468/stermag0013.jpg
Niether would ever be called small or camo'd but boy will they shoot!
Build a Mag and then go crazy with the mod's.

[Wacko]

I think on of the hardest transitions to pump is cocking the marker completely and returning the rod all the way out before your fire. Since you are not actually holding on to the bolt like an autococker, do you have to do a full cocking motion with an automag?

Are there differences in the four pump kits out there?
I know the cerbius and AGD are suppose to be identical.
What about the x15 and Rainman's?
Do these pump kits all use the same cocking concept or does one have a shorter cocking mechanism?

I've done a lot of research,but still have a lot of questions... I've even seen a French air smith create an a auto trigger for his pump mag, I just need a bit more info before I pull the trigger.

Thanks.

[sQuidvision]

This probably wont be the most well received answer, but its based on my experience.

If you are serious about getting into pump play i would avoid pump mags. Dont get me wrong, i love mags, but there are a couple significant shortcomings with the mag platform when you convert it to pump:
1. No Autotrigger - yea yea yea, you don't need an auto-trigger, but if you are going to play pump competitively you would be limiting yourself by not having it.
2. Efficiency - this may be more of a personal prefference thing, but i run my pump with a 13ci tank. My T2 gets near 200 shots on a 13/3000, my pump mag was lucky to break 100. If you are going to run your marker with a 68/45 anyhow this will clearly not be a deciding factor.
3. Reliability *flame suit on!* - I have been plagued with issues with both of the pump mags i have put together. the first one would occasionally/randomly spew air out of the bolt after being re-cocked and wouldn't stop until it was de-gassed then re-gassed. My second pump mag had a nasty habit of returning itself to being a semi-auto which kind of defeated the point of having a pump. Admittedly these were both issues of not having my pump mags tuned properly, but it was not for lack of effort. I cant even tell you how many times i tried shortening the return spring for the semi-auto issue, swapping wave springs, ect. the first mag with the leaking issue i never resolved.

There are two things i really liked about the pump mag platform... super easy pump stroke and detents! but after the reliability issues i gave up on both of them. i now have a T2 and couldnt be happier. I still run a mag anytime i want to play mech/semi but for pump i am completely sold on CCM.

[automag_holder]

I've had 3 pump mags, and there great. But all of mine were agd pump mags, i didnt buy any of those homemade pumpmags. I've had the classic powerfeed, minimag powerfeed, and a converted classic powerfeed body into a stock class body using a phantom tube. The only problem i had was when i added the lvl 10 and it would hiss air every once in a while. But i did read somewhere that pumpmags were designed to work with the lvl 7 bolt. I kick myself every day for getting rid of it.

Here's a pic of one of my old pumpmags.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j220/automag_holder/0927091508.jpg

[captian pinky]

i have owned 3 pump mags aswell loved the last one the most. the first one had a lvl 7 bolt and had the semi issue. the 2nd had a lvl 7 and had the semi issue but also rubbed my ule so much so that sometimes the pump would not return. it was one of the cerberus kits. wasn't a fan of the rubbing. i like the agd kits and the rainman. the rainman is what im running now and love it to death. much smoother than the other kits.

i also own a s6 and a s6.5. ccm is the way to go if you are going to play competitively plain and simple. they are smooth and have plenty of maintenance guides on mcb on how to set them up and tune them. i have also owned a ton of other sniper pumps and have come to the conclusion they just arent ccm. no matter how many ccm parts go in it they just arent ccm.

if your interested next time im home in charleston i can let you shoot my pump mag out at pbc.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/581048_10150970001540379_464796901_n_zps584bd3b1.j pg

[Henchman]

Squid, doesn't having an auto trigger kinda defeat the whole purpose of a pump?
You might as well just shoot a regular paintball gun, if you're going to run a pump with an auto trigger.

[sQuidvision]

Squid, doesn't having an auto trigger kinda defeat the whole purpose of a pump?
You might as well just shoot a regular paintball gun, if you're going to run a pump with an auto trigger.

This is a popular opinion (and i dont necessarily disagree with you) but in competition the point is to win, so if your opponents can AT you probably should be able to as well.

[Ando]

I personally have a bunch of them.

I like them a lot. If you go with any kit, go with the Rainman kits. I've use every kit out there and Rainman's is probably best out of the 4-5 kits out.

1. Rainman
2. AGD
3. XM
4. Cerberus. ( Lots of tweeking needed but once you get it straight. It's on par with AGD.)

[Wacko]

From what I'm hearing..people love their automag pump, but I don't feel like anyone actually uses their pumpmag on a competitive scene because of one issue or another.

Thank you for those who have posted. I have personally never seen a pump mag here in northern CA so it's difficulty to try one out. My main concern is to have a stale and consistent marker that I don't need to worry about on game days. I was oping that the mag was the option, but even among the most knowledgable of AO members, the pump system is just not perfected enough.

Thanks.

[captian pinky]

i have never had an issue with my newest pump mag. just takes a bit of tuning. some people tell you to only run a lvl 7 well there are a couple things you can do to tune both bolt systems.

lvl 7
using a worn bolt will help get rid of the semi auto issue
moving the powertube oring in front of the spacer will help keep it from leaking down the barrel but make the pump stroke harder.
adjusting the spacers as normal.
i have had good experiences using then spring in the lvl7 bolts not sure why.

lvl10
using a worn spring
adjusting the powertube spacer takes agood bit of love
i think you can move an oring somewhere but i forgot

ill have to have my bro check mine tomorrow.

[cougar20th]

From what I'm hearing..people love their automag pump, but I don't feel like anyone actually uses their pumpmag on a competitive scene because of one issue or another.

Thank you for those who have posted. I have personally never seen a pump mag here in northern CA so it's difficulty to try one out. My main concern is to have a stale and consistent marker that I don't need to worry about on game days. I was oping that the mag was the option, but even among the most knowledgable of AO members, the pump system is just not perfected enough.

Thanks.

Im thinking the main reason people dont use pumpmags in open class tournements is the lack of any type of autotrigger. Electro or pump it still comes down to the more paint you can throw the more chances you have of that lucky hit.

[need4reebs]

i have owned 3 pump mags aswell loved the last one the most. the first one had a lvl 7 bolt and had the semi issue. the 2nd had a lvl 7 and had the semi issue but also rubbed my ule so much so that sometimes the pump would not return. it was one of the cerberus kits. wasn't a fan of the rubbing. i like the agd kits and the rainman. the rainman is what im running now and love it to death. much smoother than the other kits.

i also own a s6 and a s6.5. ccm is the way to go if you are going to play competitively plain and simple. they are smooth and have plenty of maintenance guides on mcb on how to set them up and tune them. i have also owned a ton of other sniper pumps and have come to the conclusion they just arent ccm. no matter how many ccm parts go in it they just arent ccm.

if your interested next time im home in charleston i can let you shoot my pump mag out at pbc.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/581048_10150970001540379_464796901_n_zps584bd3b1.j pg



just take superman up on his offer to let you use his pumpmag....that way you will know for your self and make your decision a lot easier! any pump marker will shoot great if built right and taken care of

[cockerpunk]

I personally have a bunch of them.

I like them a lot. If you go with any kit, go with the Rainman kits. I've use every kit out there and Rainman's is probably best out of the 4-5 kits out.

1. Rainman
2. AGD
3. XM
4. Cerberus. ( Lots of tweeking needed but once you get it straight. It's on par with AGD.)

i disagree so vehemently.

i loved my pump mag, but i HATED my rainman kit. the whole set screw in a slot idea is the worst thing ever. to tight and your pump stroke sucks, too loos and you putt the pump arm right off the front of the gun mid-game. happened to me more times then i can count.

[BigEvil]

i disagree so vehemently.

i loved my pump mag, but i HATED my rainman kit. the whole set screw in a slot idea is the worst thing ever. to tight and your pump stroke sucks, too loos and you putt the pump arm right off the front of the gun mid-game. happened to me more times then i can count.

That's true,... for most amateurs.

[Freedy500]

That's true,... for most amateurs.

burnnnnnneeeeeddddddd

[Spider-TW]

From what I'm hearing..people love their automag pump, but I don't feel like anyone actually uses their pumpmag on a competitive scene because of one issue or another.

Thank you for those who have posted. I have personally never seen a pump mag here in northern CA so it's difficulty to try one out. My main concern is to have a stale and consistent marker that I don't need to worry about on game days. I was oping that the mag was the option, but even among the most knowledgable of AO members, the pump system is just not perfected enough.

Thanks.

So are you talking about competitive pump play?

There are people that can compete with a pump mag, but there are people that compete well in open class pump tournaments using stock class markers. If you are just starting out on pump tournaments, I would just go with a CCM because it will be easier to pull out of the box and be competitive with a little more confidence.

If you take care of a tuned pump mag like you take care of a new CCM that you want to resell, it will work well. My son rolls around in the dirt with his pump mag and shoots a good amount of paint. He kept breaking wave springs until I told him I wouldn't order anymore unless he started cleaning the dirt out of them after play. Since then, he hasn't broken a wave spring. The grit was getting in the contact points in the wave spring and eating it up.

[Nobody]

the best thing about a pump mag is, when you buy it but don't like it, you will get your money back out of it.

[GEE TEE]

My team played a series of 3 man X-ball tournaments a few seasons back. I was competing against guys shooting a mixed bag of Cocker, CCM and Sterling pumps with my pump mag. Never really felt out gunned by the lack of slam fire, but slam mode isn't really my style of play. Even when I do have the option on slam fire I rarely use it. The thing I like about the Mag is it's very quiet, reliable, never chops paint and is deadly accurate. When I loan it out people are gobsmacked at how straight it shoots. Mine uses the XM15 pump kit which I really like. It took a bit of fine tuning and spring swaps to get it shooting well. I couldn't stop it leaking slightly between shots, even after swapping powertube o-ring spacers. I eventually shortened the back of the tube tip to shift the o-ring forward, and it's shot fine ever since. My team mate Richard was so impressed he asked me to build him one as well. I only have two pumps a the moment - the pumpmag and a Empire Sniper.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6138/5959160323_b9b0caf30d_z.jpg

[cockerpunk]

That's true,... for most amateurs.

sorry i expect my AGD equipment to work.

the rainman kit is a dumb design, there are half a dozen easier and better things he could have done there

[Ando]

i disagree so vehemently.

i loved my pump mag, but i HATED my rainman kit. the whole set screw in a slot idea is the worst thing ever. to tight and your pump stroke sucks, too loos and you putt the pump arm right off the front of the gun mid-game. happened to me more times then i can count.

Not sure what "set screw idea" you're talking about. He had some issues with a few of the version 2 handles he put out. I sent mine back and he fixed it no problem. Give him a ring, he'll work with ya.

I have 2 of them and never had anything putt off or fall off.

[skipdogg]

My $.02
I have a pump mag with the AGD factory kit. I played with it exclusively for about 4-5 years. Loved it!!!! However starting this past summer I got ahold of a CCM S6.5. And I havnt used the mag pump since. So, for me I have clearly chosen the CCM over the pump mag. BUT...it is not cause the pump mag did me wrong or anything. Still love it and had no problems with it. But I just found I like the CCM more.

As for pump kits. Ironically enough I just worked on a pump mag with the XM15 kit this past weekend because it wasnt working properly. I was able to fix it, and it works great now. However.... I found the kit requires more tweaking then the AGD kit. So for that reason, I would recommend the AGD pump kit over the XM15 kit.

[BigEvil]

sorry i expect my AGD equipment to work.

the rainman kit is a dumb design, there are half a dozen easier and better things he could have done there

Of course it is a dumb design.. you cant get it to work..... amateur.

Just send it to me and I will make it all better for you.

[cockerpunk]

Of course it is a dumb design.. you cant get it to work..... amateur.

Just send it to me and I will make it all better for you.

that gun is long long gone. i didn't want to have to hit it with my own mill to fix it, it just wasn't worth it given the collection i had/have. funny though, we all and you especially love to talk about how well designed and reliable automags are, but the second there is a problem, its obviously me. not rainman's silly set screw in a slot on the pump arm retaining system. lol.



i like pump mags, and the lack of autotrigger is kind of misnomer, the trigger on a pump mag is dead until you pump, so the gun tells you pretty actively when its ready to be shot again, i found i could shoot pretty damn fast with just the automags natural trigger response. as i said, my only complaint was the rainman kit, im sure an AGD kit would work wonderfully.

pump mags are also really nice in that they are open bolt, so you dont have to match or underbore to make it work.

[BigEvil]

that gun is long long gone. i didn't want to have to hit it with my own mill to fix it, it just wasn't worth it given the collection i had/have. funny though, we all and you especially love to talk about how well designed and reliable automags are, but the second there is a problem, its obviously me. not rainman's silly set screw in a slot on the pump arm retaining system. lol.



i like pump mags, and the lack of autotrigger is kind of misnomer, the trigger on a pump mag is dead until you pump, so the gun tells you pretty actively when its ready to be shot again, i found i could shoot pretty damn fast with just the automags natural trigger response. as i said, my only complaint was the rainman kit, im sure an AGD kit would work wonderfully.

pump mags are also really nice in that they are open bolt, so you dont have to match or underbore to make it work.

First of all, dont lump me in with 'talking about how well designed" ANYTHING is numbnuts. Second of all, you arent talking about an AGD part - you are talking about an NON-AGD aftermarket part. Like most aftermarket parts in paintball, yours apparently needed some TLC applied to it - something which I guess you were just not capable of handling. It's ok, you can admit it. We all know. :)

Third of all, I believe AGD said that they always had trouble with the pump kits, which is why they discontinued them. All of the aftermarket ones were lacking in one way shape or form... at least you didnt need a "Cerberus Instillation kit" on them though...

Fourthly - it is possible to make an autotrigger for these things... it's been done and something I myself have started messing with. Unfortunately trying to add one to an existing pump kit is more trouble then its worth and looks like crap.

[need4reebs]

that gun is long long gone. i didn't want to have to hit it with my own mill to fix it, it just wasn't worth it given the collection i had/have. funny though, we all and you especially love to talk about how well designed and reliable automags are, but the second there is a problem, its obviously me. not rainman's silly set screw in a slot on the pump arm retaining system. lol.



i like pump mags, and the lack of autotrigger is kind of misnomer, the trigger on a pump mag is dead until you pump, so the gun tells you pretty actively when its ready to be shot again, i found i could shoot pretty damn fast with just the automags natural trigger response. as i said, my only complaint was the rainman kit, im sure an AGD kit would work wonderfully.

pump mags are also really nice in that they are open bolt, so you dont have to match or underbore to make it work.



that issue was fixed with his V2 version...and that wasnt really a big deal...especially for being his first effort building a mag pump kit? your you tube video sure does seem like you like pump mags...sup with all tha negativity PUNK!!!:headbang:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCOtUMm1pw

[Ando]

This "set screw in a slot".

Are we talking about the pump rod that screws into the little slot on the pump handle?

Never knew there was an issue with that :tard:

I have a ver 1 and 2. They both seem to act and operate the same. Unless my first one is a 1.5 ver or something

[Ando]

And you 2 need to take a long cold shower. We all know you have the hots for each other :p

[captian pinky]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/aacsized_zps62ed425a.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/aaesized_zps674cfb39.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/aagsized_zps022c45a1.jpg

look close to where to the pump rod screws into the pump plate. it is taped for a small set screw. that set screw goes down into the slot on the quide rod and holds the pump arm on the rod. he was saying that the set screw backs out and the pump arm comes off the front.

sorry i couldnt get better pics i found these online somewhere. like everyone has said he changed the design later to be more like the agd kits.

[GEE TEE]

The XM15 is a much simpler design

The handle is bored right through and a large allen bolt screwed into the end of the main rod holds it on

[captian pinky]

thats how the new rainman kits are and they don't rotate

[Arstron]

I have owned an agd pump kit, an agd blem pump kit, a cerberus pump kit, a phantom, and a older Carter mini comp. I personally prefer the pump mags. The design is simple, the pump stroke is super smooth, and if I want to switch it to semi it takes only a couple of minutes to remove the spring from the valve and the pump rod.

[sjrtk]

I have a Cerberus kit on a mag i love it. Well after a little tweaking, it is quite smooth. I have alot of fun with it and have no issues playing with or against people using any other brand with or with out auto trigger.

[Wacko]

Let me add a question about maintenance and longevity then... For those who play every other week, how often are you changing out your wave spring. Will a wave spring go through a long day of play (1500 paintballs)?

I really want something reliable to play with, and it seems like most of you had to go through 2 to 3 projects before you had something that you loved. The pumpmag concept is great, I just ope I don't have to go through $1000 before I have something that works well.

[cougar20th]

Let me add a question about maintenance and longevity then... For those who play every other week, how often are you changing out your wave spring. Will a wave spring go through a long day of play (1500 paintballs)?

I really want something reliable to play with, and it seems like most of you had to go through 2 to 3 projects before you had something that you loved. The pumpmag concept is great, I just ope I don't have to go through $1000 before I have something that works well.

Now Ive been told repeatedly that my wave spring must be a fluke. It is the original wave spring that was with the kit when I bought it from AGD back in 2002? or sometime around there. I used it heavily for 6-7 years. Put many many cases thru that gun. It is still in the gun without any issues.

Others have told me and I have seen others break the springs regularly. But they are using the springs that came from other sources not AGD

[GEE TEE]

The original wave spring in my XM15 kit is over 2 years old and must have fired over 10,000 shots now

[BigEvil]

There are different quality springs out there... the AGD and it looks like the Rainman kit springs are a better quality then the ones that came with the Cerberus kits. I destroy those fairly regularly.

[cockerpunk]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/aacsized_zps62ed425a.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/aaesized_zps674cfb39.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/ninjasuperman/aagsized_zps022c45a1.jpg

look close to where to the pump rod screws into the pump plate. it is taped for a small set screw. that set screw goes down into the slot on the quide rod and holds the pump arm on the rod. he was saying that the set screw backs out and the pump arm comes off the front.

sorry i couldnt get better pics i found these online somewhere. like everyone has said he changed the design later to be more like the agd kits.

good pics, yeah that's the problem. the lead on the screw was also too course, and the slot too shallow, so a 1/4 or 1/8 of a turn would be from in contact with the pump rod, to almost all the way out of the slot.

then, i am finger bang the snot out of my pump guns when i play, so even if there was a bit in the slot, i could pull the pump handle right off the front, and not be able to get it back on again without an allen key.

there are about a half dozen different ways to do that without there being an issue, so i was sorely disappointed in my rainman kit. otherwise, i loved everything about the gun. esp the not having to bore or underbore your paint.

[sjrtk]

As far as life span i have about 4 cases through mine with a Cerberus included wave spring. It is holding up just fine so far.

[luke]

where to the pump rod screws into the pump plate. it is taped for a small set screw. that set screw goes down into the slot on the quide rod and holds the pump arm on the rod. he was saying that the set screw backs out and the pump arm comes off the front.


That was probably a five minute fix at best. ;)

[GEE TEE]

Yep sounds like the slot needed to be cut a little deeper and loctite used on screw

[PumpMag]

It's been a long time since I posted here. The new forum look seems alien to me, but glad AO is here to stay!


Anyway on to the thread topic.

Here's my opinion/experience:

Shoot what you like. Try out your friends pump markers and try em out for a full day so you really get to sample them.

I started playing pump with a Worr Games Sniper, but once I got my hands on an Automag Pump, I was hooked. I've been playing competitive Pump tournaments since 2004. Since then Pump Play has grown in popularity and the format has changed from limited formats to unlimited formats to NPPL round robin style to X-ball style. So there is valid reason to need auto-trigger these days, so much more paint is shot now. Some teams make it rain like mech semis at times but I still prefer my Automag Pump. I still really just want that 1 shot kill.

I also shoot the Azodin Pump and SM-1 pump at tournaments but I always prefer my PumpMag! It's good to be able to shoot any marker, especially if a gun goes down.

Over the course of a year, playing nearly every weekend, I would have to replace my PumpMag's wave spring at least once or twice during the year. I've been on the phone with one of the wave spring manufacturers who told me that the wave springs weren't really meant to compress completely flat, so that's why over time they do eventually break. Rainman is a good guy - I have not shot or used his CCM kit, but I bought wave springs from him - he's easy to contact and fast to ship.

I have shot and own the original AGD kit and use the Cerberus kit and really love both. I've assembled and pieced several versions of these and converted Automags to pump versions for a couple of good friends.

I suggest going to an AO meet and try em out. As stated above, if you end up not liking it you could always resell and get your money back or keep it as a semi.

BTW deciding to play pump is a win win situation, your skills will really get good if you stay with it. Ask any of the AO SoCal guys, when I joined AO in 2006 I was the only one other than Shrub and Dm4don3 that played pump. Now almost everyone of the regular AOSoCal guys has some type of pump in their arsenal and owns the field with it!