Low Pressure Mag

[FPSmaniac152]

So Im just feeling out the waters. I have a solid design for a low pressure (under 200 psi) automag valve. It would use the same on/off assembly and a similar bolt setup just optimized for high flow. The volume chamber would be larger (to make up for the drop in pressure). Finally, the regulator would be of a more traditional design so that it could be more compact and help make more room for the volume chamber.

If it works, it has the potential to give the Automag the one thing it was missing, efficiency. It would also have a much lighter trigger pull, and with the ULE trigger kit, would probably have under a 10 oz pull.

Should I pursue the design? Any other suggestions? Would you buy one over an X valve?

[knownothingmags]

i voted.

i would say if you can get it to work, and work right, and is done right. go for it.
other wise no thats a terrible idea. :D

[Henchman]

As long as it would work with a level 10 bolt.

[FPSmaniac152]

No, it wouldn't use the lvl 10, that's the thing, it would be an entirely new valve, new reg, new bolt etc. The only parts retained would be the on/off assembly.

[Freedy500]

This sounds difficult. I hope to see it done but I am worried about whether it will have anti-chop and how its recharge rate will be. But if you succeed then this will be a great advancement in technology in AO.

[BTAutoMag]

sounds like another attempt at a smart mag...


make it low pressure and preform like an X-valve and youll be golden. What have you got to loose besides time and money;)

[OPBN]

Will it be capable of RTing? If not, it will lessen the appeal for many. Removing the Lvl10 will make others shy away. It will have to have to be capable of keeping up with a 20bps recharge rate to keep the EgoMag guys happy. I can definitely see Pumpers having an interest in this, especially if it's aluminim. Cost is also going to be a major factor. I think more specs on what it will do, what it's capable of and what it will cost are necessary before an accurate vote can really be taken.

IMO, if you are looking at a $300 valve that is not capable of RTing, doesnt have levelX and doesnt have a reasonable recharge rate, the market is going to be very limited.

* Edit. Would also need to know whether it will work with CO2 and HPA? Some of the pumpers/stock class guys would love to have an LP valve, but its worthless if it won't run on 12ies.

[FPSmaniac152]

It would be capable of RTing but it would be much lighter than the current RT mags due to the lower pressure. The bolt would be anti chop (much like Bob Long's pillow bolt). I don't have figures and stats yet as its all just paper so far, but as soon as I can get a working prototype I'll update with them.

I see no reason why it wouldn't work on co2 as long as you can keep liquid out of the reg

[BTAutoMag]

IMO, if you are looking at a $300 valve that is not capable of RTing, doesnt have levelX and doesnt have a reasonable recharge rate, the market is going to be very limited.

* Edit. Would also need to know whether it will work with CO2 and HPA? Some of the pumpers/stock class guys would love to have an LP valve, but its worthless if it won't run on 12ies.


this:D

[OPBN]

I also think that you may have to prove some credentials before a lot of people are going to give this any serious thought. In a nutshell, yes there would be interest, but some seriously smart people put a lot of time, effort and money into designing the AGD valves and other products. It may strike some as absurd that a member who just joined the AO community less than a month ago and only has 3 posts is suddenly going to reinvent the wheel and bring to market an LP valve for the Automag.

[FPSmaniac152]

. It may strike some as absurd that a member who just joined the AO community less than a month ago and only has 3 posts is suddenly going to reinvent the wheel and bring to market an LP valve for the Automag.
I was a member for 2 years prior but I quit for a while when I was in college, now im back and made a new profile. I've owned 6 mags over the years and I just got an engineering degree, I think I might know what Im doing.

[BTAutoMag]

we are not saying that you dont know what youre doing... but this website is notorious for people with empty promises:D

[OPBN]

I was a member for 2 years prior but I quit for a while when I was in college, now im back and made a new profile. I've owned 6 mags over the years and I just got an engineering degree, I think I might know what Im doing.

Qualifying your post with this information probably helps. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Obviously, it can be done to some degree considering the Tippmann Phenom valve is VERY similiar to an AGD valve and runs on LP. It has been hinted at that TK may have given some input on its design.

[knownothingmags]

we are not saying that you dont know what youre doing... but this website is notorious for people with empty promises:D

like me?
:p:ninja:

[BTAutoMag]

4 words...


Venomous Designs Evolution Grips

and other dealers who have dissappeared with products that are still selling:rolleyes:

[FPSmaniac152]

I don't intend to create my own company if I don't have to, id rather work with AGD and let them produce it. Starting a new company these days is a horrible business plan.

[OPBN]

I don't intend to create my own company if I don't have to, id rather work with AGD and let them produce it. Starting a new company these days is a horrible business plan.

Good luck with that.

[BTAutoMag]

you HAVE been gone awhile:rolleyes:

[TOTShadowCompany]

I for one like to see what you have in mind. Keep us posted.

[C_losjoker]

I think this would be great, if it works. like they said above, you would have to prove some
Numbers, prototype, and field test. If it does not work for semi, still might work for pump so you still would have market.

[GEE TEE]

It's could be a great concept but you'll need to trial a working prototype to prove design is sound. Can't see this getting much interest until that happens. The low pressure/efficiency will appeal more to semi shooters than pumps.. unless it's possible to get a higher 12g shot count. Generally CO2 doesn't perform well at low pressure/high volume so I can't see that working. Pumpers wouldn't shoot enough to worry about running out of air, and it's certainly never been a problem for me. It would also need to be compatible with existing Magpump kits to make it cost effective. The high pressure operation on mag valves can be a pain. It won't let you shoot very far into a tank fill and limits your shot capacity, so the low pressure operation will be a bonus there. The BL pillow bolt isn't an anti chop system like level 10, just a soft nosed bolt to help prevent breaks. So I can see that being a disadvantage to RT's at high ROF, and may force you to run eyes to avoid chopping.

[FPSmaniac152]

It's could be a great concept but you'll need to trial a working prototype to prove design is sound. Can't see this getting much interest until that happens. The low pressure/efficiency will appeal more to semi shooters than pumps.. unless it's possible to get a higher 12g shot count. Generally CO2 doesn't perform well at low pressure/high volume so I can't see that working. Pumpers wouldn't shoot enough to worry about running out of air, and it's certainly never been a problem for me. It would also need to be compatible with existing Magpump kits to make it cost effective. The high pressure operation on mag valves can be a pain. It won't let you shoot very far into a tank fill and limits your shot capacity, so the low pressure operation will be a bonus there. The BL pillow bolt isn't an anti chop system like level 10, just a soft nosed bolt to help prevent breaks. So I can see that being a disadvantage to RT's at high ROF, and may force you to run eyes to avoid chopping.
Noted, very good suggestions, thank you.

[maniacmechanic]

hasn't this been tried before :confused:

[FPSmaniac152]

hasn't this been tried before :confused:

Quite possibly, I cannot however remember when, who etc.

[FPSmaniac152]

Ok, so I just worked out some of the input you guys gave, it WOULD work with a lvl 10, BUT you would need a lower power spring and the pressure needed to cycle it would be higher nontheless (about 200psi). The bolt I had in mind however was very similar but was in fact designed to deliver a much larger volume of gas at once while still being a gradual lead on to full blow (for fragile paint). As a result it would use a lower pressure (if math serves me right about 180 psi). It would still be tunable like the lvl 10 and would retain a foamie likely of the same design as the lvl 10. Ill put up a poll later on to see what everyone wants in that regard.

If you wanted to use Co2 in it it would work unmodified however with an expansion chamber. If liquid got into the gun you would have the same problem as classic mags. I may design an insert for the volume chamber to optimize it for 12gs. (Lower the volume, raise the pressure)

It would also work with current pump mods out because the dimensions would remain unchanged, but I was thinking of making a kit to go with it as an option when you buy one. It would include a pre milled rail if that were the case.

[Cokrkilr]

If you are gonna go balls to the wall you may as well redesign the bolt completely, like 2 piece delrin/ stainless back. rebuildable front section for any mishaps with the delrin. With LP using delrin shouldnt be a problem like the old two piecers were... at least thats what I'd imagine?

I know this is pretty early on, but may hault anything other than a one off for yourself to tinker with.. realistically what would you want for said valve? X-valves are what, $275 or so new? Anything much higher than that and id personally rather run an HP tank and refill it for free 10 times in a day (after you pay your $5 air fee of course) than run LP and refill it only 8 times.

It is very interesting dont get me wrong. But you gotta remember your time/ money/ testing/ multiple failures in this, plus AGD didnt get going over night... My mag back in 2000 was almost $300 with no barrel, asa, anything... just a mag... by the time I finished it with inflation and parts costs today, thats pretty much like a completely pimped out x valved pneumag.

Im not completely negative at all, but ive been "that sucker" who pays for nice one off items over the internet, and doesnt see his money or product after 6 months and disputes that drag on forever.

[FPSmaniac152]

Firstly, I see no real advantage in using delrin on the bolt other than reducing weight. It would however introduce durability issues as you mentioned. If there is a notable difference in performance I may offer it as an upgrade, but to include it stock would only serve to drive the price up.

As for cost, I haven't the slightest idea what it would retail for.

[Cokrkilr]

Wouldn't less weight =less pressure/ forces to move it? I don't have an engineering degree or anything, but I thought that's how stuff worked.

[FPSmaniac152]

While this is true, it is my belief that the difference in pressure wouldn't be worth the loss in durability. Later on ill do more math etc. and may come out with an upgrade bolt kit. Right now im trying to keep it simple, remember, this is an automag were talking about, not a superlight hyper performance speedball gun.

[BTAutoMag]

this is an automag were talking about, not a superlight hyper performance speedball gun.


you can build one of these out of an automag:D

[FPSmaniac152]

Exactly my point, ill design a base valve, then make it, then you buy it and do whatever you want with it. Whether that's a hyper performance gun with a delrin bolt, or a durable good performance gun that can also be used as a hammer.

[Patron God of Pirates]

I'm not an engineer but once upon a time this was a bi-weekly discussion on AO. If you could figure a way to maintain the recharge rate and lower the pressure I would be very surprised. Show me 32 CPS with zero shoot down (in fact some shoot up) at 200psi. It seems counter intuitive. I'm also fairly certain that the high pressure = low efficiency thing is a myth. The volume of air required to accelerate a paintball up to 300 fps is the same regardless of input pressure.

If a paintball is going from zero - 300 fps in the first 8 inches of a 0.689 barrel then the amount of air being dumped behind the ball has to be equal regardless of the platform delivering the air. What makes MAGs seem inefficient is there inability to shoot "to the bottom of the tank".

Again, I'm not an engineer, but seeing is believing and so far everyone who has promised this has delivered hype and nonsense. I wish you luck.

~Patron

[FPSmaniac152]

I'm not an engineer but once upon a time this was a bi-weekly discussion on AO. If you could figure a way to maintain the recharge rate and lower the pressure I would be very surprised. Show me 32 CPS with zero shoot down (in fact some shoot up) at 200psi. It seems counter intuitive. I'm also fairly certain that the high pressure = low efficiency thing is a myth. The volume of air required to accelerate a paintball up to 300 fps is the same regardless of input pressure.

If a paintball is going from zero - 300 fps in the first 8 inches of a 0.689 barrel then the amount of air being dumped behind the ball has to be equal regardless of the platform delivering the air. What makes MAGs seem inefficient is there inability to shoot "to the bottom of the tank".

Again, I'm not an engineer, but seeing is believing and so far everyone who has promised this has delivered hype and nonsense. I wish you luck.

~Patron
While your base theory on low vs high pressure on efficiency is somewhat correct, the gap between the paintball and the barrel allows air to escape. High pressure air escapes at a faster rate causing more waste, lower pressure still escapes, but at a slower rate. This means that low pressure air loses less energy in the barrel than high pressure air, allowing you to use less energy (air) to get a paintball to the same velocity. Also a lower pressure volume of air does not expand as quickly or violently as high pressure air. This means that once the air escapes the barrel there will be a lower power/speed pressure wave meaning less sound. It will also accelerate the ball more gradually meaning it is more gentle with paint.

I can get around the recharge/shootdown issue in low pressure markers simply by updating the regulator. These days markers are capable of a low pressure stream of 35+ bps paint with no shoot down.

[Patron God of Pirates]

While your base theory on low vs high pressure on efficiency is somewhat correct, the gap between the paintball and the barrel allows air to escape. High pressure air escapes at a faster rate causing more waste, lower pressure still escapes, but at a slower rate. This means that low pressure air loses less energy in the barrel than high pressure air, allowing you to use less energy (air) to get a paintball to the same velocity. Also a lower pressure volume of air does not expand as quickly or violently as high pressure air. This means that once the air escapes the barrel there will be a lower power/speed pressure wave meaning less sound. It will also accelerate the ball more gradually meaning it is more gentle with paint.

I can get around the recharge/shootdown issue in low pressure markers simply by updating the regulator. These days markers are capable of a low pressure stream of 35+ bps paint with no shoot down.

According to this thread:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?34429-Official-Data-Thread

The peak pressure behind the ball coming from a "high pressure" E-mag was only 60psi. Lower than the Cocker, Impy, Angel, and Matrix at the time. If I'm reading the graph properly, the pressure falls off far more evenly than it's contemporaries. This would seem to directly contradict your notion. While the Mag's operating pressure is higher (to increase cycle speed), the volume and pressure of air behind the ball is as low as the lowest of "low" pressure markers at the time.

Are todays markers dumping air at less than 60 psi behind the ball? If they were they would be needing longer barrels would they not?

[Sandman]

For further research you might consider investigating the "Flex" valve that Tippmann is using in the phenom. It does not use the on/off assembly from the Automag design, thus circumventing any patent infringement, but it is a low pressure regulated blow forward design with 30bps ROF capability. Keep in mind if you do build a valve utilizing the on/off assembly and sell it for a profit you would be violating the patent on the Automag valve.

An extremely low pressure, efficient mag has always been a "dream" design of mag enthusiasts. But like the previous poster brought out, Mags already run at pretty low pressures. Internally at about 325 and at the ball 60 PSI. How low do you think you can go and move that bolt fast enough and fire at velocity?

You claim high pressure gas escapes "faster" around the ball than low pressure gas? Isn't that proportionate also? If the gas is pushing the ball faster and escaping faster, then a slower ball push, would mean a slower gas escape, but a longer time in the barrel, meaning it would still lose the same amount of gas over a longer period of time. Doesn't that balance out?

Velocity, mass, and energy are all calculated fields. There is no real guesswork here. It should all be able to be calculated. I am no math genius by far, but I'm assuming you should be able to mathematically prove your idea before you even bother going into any kind of production.
I would love to see the math.

Sandman

[athomas]

The air pressure dilemma is not always as easy as looking at the pressure available. It takes a certain amount of force to accelerate the ball up to the desired velocity within the confines of the length of the barrel. That force is delivered by air pressure on the back of the ball. Now, this is where it gets dicey, and the different delivery mechanisms actually make one better than another.

The theory is that low pressure is more efficient. The truth is, that they are both equal. A large chamber at a lower pressure delivers the same energy as a small chamber at a higher pressure. The inefficiencies come in the delivery system. This is where the air gets choked off as it fills the void behind the ball. If you could magically open the front of the valve instantly without any restrictions for both a high pressure or low pressure chamber containing the same energy, they would both shoot the ball at the same velocity.

Low pressure systems are more efficient in current designs due to their delivery systems. The chamber has less restriction when opened so the lower pressure air is more fully available without restriction. Therefore, it actually pushes the ball down the barrel rather than chasing it down the barrel after the initial impulse of air is released. You could make these delivery systems much more efficient using a smaller chamber and higher pressure, but the machining work and tolerances would need to be much more precise to prevent the orings from binding. Plus, most of the small solenoid switches don't handle higher pressures well. Changing these parameters to operate at high pressure would drastically increase the cost of the design.

The high pressure systems on the market today use alternate methods of delivering the air from the front chamber. Many use a poppet valve. These actually work really well for a simple design. The puff of high pressure air released when the poppet is opened has a short, high pressure impulse force so it pushes the ball rather efficiently without much trail-off of air.

The mag uses a spool valve. The inefficiency lies in the bolt spring. It keeps backward force against the bolt and acts like a regulator for the air flow. That means that the ball can get away from the air supply after the initial high pressure impulse, because the regulated air escaping around the back of the bolt cannot maintain enough force to push the ball. Only the initial impulse can propel the ball and all other air following that is just wasted. A lower force differential and resulting slower bolt movement caused by a level 10 bolt setup makes it even worst, which is why efficiency went down when level 10 bolts were introduced.

If you want to truly make an efficient gun/valve design the mag valve is not bad. You just need to get rid of the bolt spring so that the valve fully opens without restriction and will immediately dump all of the air behind the ball. That will cause you to use a lower pressure to reach a higher impulse pressure that can be maintained longer, which will give great efficiency. Now you just have to figure out how to reset the bolt. I would use a pneumatic piston of some sort. Removing the bolt spring would also allow you to use a lighter material for the bolt which would make the bolt more responsive and easier to maintain a level 10 anti-chop mechanism while keeping the smooth consistent operation needed for minimal velocity fluctuations.

[Cokrkilr]

To further further touch up on what's been said recently, about the gas escaping around the ball at any pressure... isn't that why every company out there makes a paint match barrel system?

I know its an "accuracy enhancing" feature, but if you match the barrel/ paint there should be minuscule blow by on the ball.

I also think if this were highly probable agd would have done it years ago, and called it the "fastmag"

[TimmyJay]

I like the idea of eliminating the spring and using a pneumatic ram to reset the bolt. I wanted to give it a shot but short on money and skills. Eliminating the spring should increase efficiency correct? Then use a light weight bolt as well.

[FPSmaniac152]

Ok, sit down this is gonna be a long one.

First, I have seen the graphs, and while yes the high pressure mag was the most consistent if you notice, the other markers have a higher MOI (moment of impulse) A higher MOI means less force acting on the paintball at once and thus less stress on the shell. So while the consistency of the automag is desirable, the short MOI is not.

The best combination (here comes the math) is found by taking tha area under the curve of a hypothetical shot at the desired velocity, finding the total work that needs to be done on the ball to bring it up to the desired velocity, and then tuning the curve so that the valve closes the moment the ball reaches then end of the control bore. After that you will have the desired MOI. Then you divide the work needed to accelerate the ball by the MOI and that gives you the momentary energy needed for the duration of the MOI. You can then convert units and find the required psi behind the ball.

For most control bores this works out to about 45psi behind the ball for about 1.4ms. This is of course assuming a perfect ball/barrel seal. Depending on the volume size this alters the actual operating pressure of the gun (I have yet to work out a formula for this).

As far as the valve goes, the Automag is a blow forward spool valve. Unlike poppet valves these are proven to work more smoothley and efficiently at lower pressures. I could eliminate the spring by using a three way fo feed air between the chamber and bolt lip (much like current spoolies) but that introduces reliability and durability issues. I was thinking of perhaps adding a compressible buffer in front of the spring. This means a lighter spring without damage to the gun. A lighter spring reduces the regulator effect because a lighter spring requires a lower pressure to influence the spring.

Id rather not use a hydraulic rammer for this purpose because its use of gas defeats its own purpose. It also introduces reliability issues.

After more math, I have decided that I will attempt to use delrin on the bolt tail. This would reduce the coefficient of friction. And also be fairly simple to change should it break. I have also settled on 7075 aluminum an a bolt material. It would take the abuse but also cut the weight way down from the steel lvl 10.

Finally thanks for the input. Keep it coming. Ill keep updating on progress through this thread.

[athomas]

For most control bores this works out to about 45psi behind the ball for about 14ms. This is of course assuming a perfect ball/barrel seal. Depending on the volume size this alters the actual operating pressure of the gun (I have yet to work out a formula for this). The ball takes about 3.5ms to exit the barrel. At 14ms you would need a really long control bore.



Id rather not use a hydraulic rammer for this purpose because its use of gas defeats its own purpose. The gas you use to push back the bolt when the chamber is empty would be less than the gas lost using a spring that acted as a regulator choking off the air flow, even a light spring. You could use a light spring that wouldn't be a problem, but then you would not have any real return force to work with and the bolt action would be slow resetting.

[captian pinky]

wow just thought i was in dynamics, structural mechanics and materials science all at once. lol looking forward to seeing the end result

[FPSmaniac152]

The ball takes about 3.5ms to exit the barrel. At 14ms you would need a really long control bore.

The gas you use to push back the bolt when the chamber is empty would be less than the gas lost using a spring that acted as a regulator choking off the air flow, even a light spring. You could use a light spring that wouldn't be a problem, but then you would not have any real return force to work with and the bolt action would be slow resetting.

Sorry, as for the MOI I forgot a decimal point, the correct number is 1.4ms, keep in mind this is for the control bore in a boring kit, not the complete barrel.

The reason I don't like the rammer is the same reason I don't really like cockers. As soon as you need that rammer you need a 3 way valve as opposed to the current 2 way, then to maintain efficiency, you would want to use an LPR. More complications. And don't forget the rammer itself. Remember the beauty of the automag is its simplicity. I am trying to improve the gun in terms of function as well as simplicity. Adding all that stuff defeats the purpose of the automag.

REMEMBER this is to be an improvement over the current x valve, not the absolute limit of what the automag can be pushed to do. It also needs to be relatively cheap (around $300) and producable. Adding absolutely everything makes that nearly impossible.

Keep the suggestions coming, just keep the whole cost thing in mind when you mention things, Im not trying to make a $1000 valve.

[athomas]

The 1.4ms makes more sense. I know what you mean about the 3-way valve. Given that the overall chamber pressure will probably be quite low, you might be able to use one of these without an LPR which would help. It does make the system more complicated, though. I hope you do find something that works. It would be nice to have some new innovation to our existing design.

[FPSmaniac152]

I have given somt thought to doing an air spring in place of the current spring. This could be done by using a 3 way in place of the current 2 way (where it turns both on and off at the same time) and directing air to the front of the bolt after firing to recock, then maintaining this pressure until the marker is fired again. This air pressure would work as a fluid sear and once air from the 3 way was deactivated, the air in the shot chamber would propel the bolt forward.

Only problem is, now were dealing with a totally new platform, making all existing bodies etc. unusable.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Your argument about MOI seems to directly contradict your notion of higher pressure behind the ball. You seem to have a good idea of what you are talking about but it always annoys me when people don't acknowledge when part of there argument has been defeated. First you said you wanted to go low pressure to improve efficiency. You said that higher pressure behind the ball lead to energy loss. When it was demonstrated that the Automag valve uses the same volume of air at the same pressure (or less) than it's contemporaries you dumped that argument and (in what appears to be a complete 180) switched to this notion of needing a shorter MOI. That seems to directly contradict your concept of higher pressure = loss of energy.

Also, look at the graphs again. The time scale is different in each graph. When read using the actual figures the MOI (amusing this means the start of the curve to its peak) is almost identical across all markers tested. Between 10 and 35 with the Mag falling at 15. I don't know what unit of time this represents, only that it is uniform and contradicts your notion of MOI being longer for the Automag as shown in those graphs. If you mean the entire length of the curve, only the Angel has a shorter instance (Mag = 45, Matrix = 75, Impulse = 65, Cocker = 200!, Angel = 35).

The only concept posited in this thread that seems to hold any water is athomas' concept of energy being wasted moving the spring forward. This seems extraordinarily marginal given that it only takes 6-8 psi to advance the bolt. The level 10 properly installed only costs 1 out of every 60 shots in efficiency. There is a data thread for that as well if you want me to dig it up for you. The real cost of the LV10 is in maximum cycle speed since it slows down a portion of the bolt stroke.

The solutions being offered sound an awful lot like the "lets turn the mag into a cocker" stuff that used to fly around in here all the time. You are right about keeping it simple. In my experience simplicity = reliability, efficiency, ease of use. The spring is not there to regulate the pressure in the chamber behind it. It is there to assist the blow back (yes, Mags use blow back) in re-cocking the bolt. Once cocked it is the sear that holds it back, not the spring. If you don't believe me, (don't do this) cut the front of your sear off and see what happens.

The reason for the bolt travel is to chamber the round. The internals of the power tube where designed at the length they were to accommodate that very specific travel. So the solution is not to contrive some new means to reset the bolt, but to eliminate the bolt altogether.

ICE EPIC! lol
http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/epic.gif

I'm not sure that that counts since it's really just moving the "bolt" to above the ball and calling it a trap door. Since most loaders are force feed now, you could conceivably use an actual trap door that would be force closed by the blow forward and forced back open by the force feed. Just a thought.

[Sandman]

So in the original post this whole concept is driven by the need to create a more efficient valve. Let's get back to that. How much more efficient is your goal over what the valve already gets in shots per tank. Is that goal, really worth the effort? Exactly how many more shots do we need out of a 68 4500psi tank? Is anyone willing to pay $300 for 5 percent? 10 percent? 15 percent? 20 percent? How many more shots and what is that worth seems to be the real question.
I for one would not buy a new valve for $300 for 10 or even 15 percent. So is it even possible to get a valve to increase efficiency by 20 percent? Even then, I'm not sure I would buy it. Is there enough lost energy to reach those kinds of goals?

[Shane-O-Mac]

First off, if you are using the actual pressure the gun fires at as your goal, you will have problem upon problem of making it efficient. Not saying its impossible, but LP was a by product of efficiency tuning. With our current X-valve, it only gets less shots per tank, as you cannot shoot deeper into the tank. But if you could measure exact amount of air used in each shot, I think you would find that LP/HP wont make that much difference. Second of all, GOG has basically made exactly what your wanting with the mech Ion like, Enemy. So keep in mind that shot for shot efficiency is completely different that tank usability. When I had an X-vlave Mag, I used a level 7 bolt and had very good shots per tank without modifying anything. You try and make a 200psi Mag valve and you will actually lose shot for shot efficiency in my opinion.

[Spider-TW]

Is that goal, really worth the effort?

Some people pay to shave grams off of their ego's, what's a little effort here or there? :)

[Flatliner333]

As Forest Gump said " I am not a smart man" and I'm not going to pretend I understand half of what has been said here. With that said would there be a way to harness the wasted air into reseting the bolt instead of losing it or does it do this already ? Dont they use this function in some real automatic weapons to reset the bolt?....be gentle....

[FPSmaniac152]

As Forest Gump said " I am not a smart man" and I'm not going to pretend I understand half of what has been said here. With that said would there be a way to harness the wasted air into reseting the bolt instead of losing it or does it do this already ? Dont they use this function in some real automatic weapons to reset the bolt?....be gentle....

This is true, but the pressures involvea are much greater in real firearms, in a paintball gun, while theoretically possible, it is impractical.

[Cokrkilr]

Its very ironic somebody brought up an ion in this thread, I was going to say build a valve out of two different marker designs... the ion/mag, and drop it in.... but didn't want to sound like a ratard... thanks for somebody bringing it in here first...

If you have access to all this equipment to build parts, why not bring back something that's long lost and people want... like a barrel back that accepts UL or freak tips.... since they are far and few between, or threaded adapters since those have gone away, 15* asa... I could go on and on about what people post in wtb ads here, but they are obsolete and nobody wants to part with them...

There's a money maker, and don't get all jazzy and have a front grip that costs as much as a decent gun. People don't have that scratch anymore.. well I don't, my $6 eBay grip is doing just fine....

Just sayin, your going down a road that's a dead end. Unless its for personal satisfaction

[OPBN]

Its very ironic somebody brought up an ion in this thread, I was going to say build a valve out of two different marker designs... the ion/mag, and drop it in.... but didn't want to sound like a ratard... thanks for somebody bringing it in here first...

If you have access to all this equipment to build parts, why not bring back something that's long lost and people want... like a barrel back that accepts UL or freak tips.... since they are far and few between, or threaded adapters since those have gone away, 15* asa... I could go on and on about what people post in wtb ads here, but they are obsolete and nobody wants to part with them...

There's a money maker, and don't get all jazzy and have a front grip that costs as much as a decent gun. People don't have that scratch anymore.. well I don't, my $6 eBay grip is doing just fine....

Just sayin, your going down a road that's a dead end. Unless its for personal satisfaction
Btw. Pretty sure Doc Nickel still make 15* Asa for AM rails as well as twist lock to AC adapters.

As for a marker using excess air to reset the bolt, Tippmanns do this. They also use the excess blowback to power Cyclone hoppers as well.

[Henchman]

Speaking of. Where can I find a 15* foregrip,nth at wont cost as much as a new barrel.

[Shane-O-Mac]

Btw. Pretty sure Doc Nickel still make 15* Asa for AM rails as well as twist lock to AC adapters.

As for a marker using excess air to reset the bolt, Tippmanns do this. They also use the excess blowback to power Cyclone hoppers as well.

Well they really do not use excess blowback air, they are designed to use air directed out of the valve specifically for those applications.

[OPBN]

Well they really do not use excess blowback air, they are designed to use air directed out of the valve specifically for those applications.
They use excess air. I guess it could be debated whether it would blow back or forward if it weren't directed sideways to power the cyclone.

[Shane-O-Mac]

They use excess air. I guess it could be debated whether it would blow back or forward if it weren't directed sideways to power the cyclone.

Let me separate the two.

The hammer is blown back after firing by design, not from excess air. The valve is designed to release some of the firing air to blow the hammer back so it can latch with the sear. You can plug the valves holes and stop the blow back air to make a pump Tippmann 98 or whatever.

The cyclone ram does use air from the same portion. So maybe it is excess, but all that air must go somewhere else if there isnt a cyclone ram, otherwise the hammer would have resistance when the spring moves the hammer forward.

[cockerpunk]

the issue you guys are all circling around is that PV=E pressure times volume equal energy in the case of expanding gases.

so fundamentally the OP is irreverent, once could just compensate for pressure with volume. but we live in the real world with real constraints on our our designs.

1. packaging, need to a reasonable sized gun
2. speed, gun has to cycle at reasonable speed
3. hard to get compressed air above a certain pressure, and the safety of its use is risky

these three constrains put us in the sub 1000 psi category more or less.

so why do some guns get better efficiency then others, not at all in correlation to there operating pressures or internal volumes?

two big reasons:

BECAUSE THE EFFICIENCY IN EXPANSION MATTERS

preventing pre expansion is your goal here. this is when you waste energy expanding the power pulse, before it gets to the ball. you would love nothing more then to put as much pressure as possible as close to the ball as possible, with as little flow restriction as possible to prevent wasting energy before you even put the paintball

having smooth and loss free expansion is also key. this gets more into fluid dynamics, and such, but suffice to say, flow path and restrictions matter here.

BECAUSE THE VALVE DYNAMICS MATTER

most guns, the valve of the gun is open for a long time after the paintball is gone, or long after they need to be open. ALWAYS BE CLOSING, good efficiency comes from re-corking the valve the millisecond it being open is no longer useful for the paintball. closing off the valve chamber is a stop gap at best here, as you will still see efficiency gains in over-dwelled spool valves because any pressure you can keep in the valve chamber, above gauge, is useful energy. no sense wasting it. always be closing ... always have a closing force on the valve ... always. this is why guns like the G3/4/5 have terrible efficiency, no closing force.

valve resolution matters as well. by this i mean you would ideally love your valve to go from closed and sealed to 100% open, in zero time. this is part of the above point, the pre expantion issue. this is the primary reason why poppits tend to be more efficient then spools, they strike the valve open, very very fast, gives you a very sharp pressure spike, which is good for efficiency. spool valves tend to be slower opening, which more wooshes the paintball, and this again, causes pre expansion issues in the barrel.


now, you might be going "cockerpunk, i thought you didn't want a big spike or dramatic spike in pressure, it will break paintballs, cause kick, makes the gun loud etc etc etc"

maybe so, but such are the trade-offs of design.

[Spider-TW]

the issue you guys are all circling around is that PV=E pressure times volume equal energy in the case of expanding gases.

so fundamentally the OP is irreverent, once could just compensate for pressure with volume. but we live in the real world with real constraints on our our designs.

1. packaging, need to a reasonable sized gun
2. speed, gun has to cycle at reasonable speed
3. hard to get compressed air above a certain pressure, and the safety of its use is risky



I still want to see a big, slow marker that is the ultimate in efficiency. :(

[athomas]

Cockerpunk summed it up nicely.

Its all a matter of what you are willing to give up to achieve your goal. Small size, speed, efficiency, gentleness, weight, low pressure. Pick any three or possibly 4, but you'll be hard pressed to get all 6 in the same package.