Fully pneumatic production marker?

[OPBN]

Been fiddling around with my pneuMag setups over the past couple of weeks. Still tweaking, but getting close where I want to be on them. I starting thinking about it though, and was wondering why are there no fully pneumatic production markers out there? Or are there and I am not aware of them? If I understand properly an AC is pneu assist, but still essentially a sear tripper right? Has it not been pursued due to the ease of using electronics? Seems like there would be a niche market for such a thing. And not something retrofitted, but an actal marker designed from the ground up.

Thoughts?

[BTAutoMag]

Nova, Enmey



oooo how I miss Novas:clap:

Edit: I would love to see a full pnuemag production model

[OPBN]

Ok, cool. Never heard of the nova.

[KurtPB]

Not the Envy, the eNMy or something like that. I would personally love to see BL somehow make his MVP pump into a mech-pneumatic marker.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4DVbeVKOg

[dboggs79]

I was doing some fiddling myself about a year ago and came up on a build idea myself. Ive yet to start it, but I've accumulated most of the parts. I'm gonna replace the hammer in the lower tube of a cocker bodied pump with a mpa3 ram. My only concern is if I can get the operating pressure of the valve within the capable range of the ram to open it properly. Not sure if this is what you were looking for. It would be somewhat of a pneumatic replacement for an mq setup. Which if I'm thinking correctly isn't pneumatic at all.

[OPBN]

^^ Thats not production. Enmey sounds like what I was thinking of, but doesnt look like it comes with a double trigger, so still not the end result I would want. And guessing even if they did come out with a double, with 1lb force required, it woud not be walkable.

Maybe I should be more clear. Why hasnt anyone come out with a walkable fully pneumatic production marker?

[KurtPB]

Yeah, it's a start. Would almost be a fun toy to pick up and screw around with. Might be interesting to see if DW comes up with any bodies/frames for the thing, though.

[BTAutoMag]

i own an enmey and they are titts!

[dboggs79]

^^ Thats not production. Enmey sounds like what I was thinking of, but doesnt look like it comes with a double trigger, so still not the end result I would want. And guessing even if they did come out with a double, with 1lb force required, it woud not be walkable.

Maybe I should be more clear. Why hasnt anyone come out with a walkable fully pneumatic production marker?
Sorry, missed the production part of it. I guess you could find the answer after answering another question. Why did it take so long for someone to build a pneumag to begin with? Evolution comes in steps. TK and AGD were one of the few to ever skip steps in that regard. Pioneers don't create what we use now. They create what others base their products off of. Sorry, went a bit long with that.

[OPBN]

^^ not sure I get your point. All I am asking is why no one has come out with a walkable fully pneumatic marker? I don't care if its a Mag or not. The Enmey is close, but not quite there. Seems doable.

[dboggs79]

My point is, that the pneumag hasn't been around for a long time when you consider the age of the marker. It is a fantastic modification. But, still a relatively new idea. Its gonna take time for that to gravitate over to other production models. How often does a truly new technology or idea ever come out? Year after year, manufacturers release a new product that can hardly be called new. Visually, it maybe slightly different but not groundbreaking. Production, markers are just now really breaking into air-thru frames. This will be almost mandatory for a fully pneumatic marker. My opinion, but I don't see people flocking to a "new" marker that has a lpr hanging off the side of an asa.

[OPBN]

My point is, that the pneumag hasn't been around for a long time when you consider the age of the marker. It is a fantastic modification. But, still a relatively new idea. Its gonna take time for that to gravitate over to other production models. How often does a truly new technology or idea ever come out? Year after year, manufacturers release a new product that can hardly be called new. Visually, it maybe slightly different but not groundbreaking. Production, markers are just now really breaking into air-thru frames. This will be almost mandatory for a fully pneumatic marker. My opinion, but I don't see people flocking to a "new" marker that has a lpr hanging off the side of an asa.

First, Pneumags have been around since at least 05 or earlier if I am not mistaken. I know there were production frames offered in 07 offered by an aftermarket company, so I am assuming home jobs predated this by at least a few years if not more. And this has really nothing to do with my question. I'm not asking about a production Pneumag offered by AGD since that will NEVER happen. I am wondering why no one has ever produced any fully pnuematic marker of any sort. Obviously, I was wrong is thinking they hadn't as evidenced by the Enmey. However, this still doesn't add up to a walkable pnuematic triggered marker. The technology of pneumatic triggers really isn't new. Heck Autocockers utilized 3 ways an such.

And a fully pneumatic marker wouldn't have to have an LPR hanging off it, especially if it was designed from the ground up. Heck, neither of my pneumags has an LPR hanging off the side for that matter and they are obviously retrofits. The Enmey doesnt have one either and if the retards at GOG can figure it out, I am sure much smarter people than them should be able to come up with something awesome.

I have a feeling the answer lies in the ease of doing the same thing easier with electronics and the precision that would be possibly required for such a marker. Also, a fully pneumatic frame can't be capped, nor could it have competed in the unlimited BPS wars that ensued over the past 10+ years. I would venture a guess that fully pneumatic systems would also simply be too complex for most 13 year olds wanting to spray 25bps right out of the box.

[BTAutoMag]

The Enmey doesnt have one either and if the retards at GOG can figure it out, I am sure much smarter people than them should be able to come up with something awesome.

the foregrip is the LPR, the entire gun works at 190 PSI

[dboggs79]

That's what I'm saying. It took atleast the better part of two decades for the pneumag to arrive after the first mags were produced. The three way on a cocker has nothing to do with the triggers function, its just for chambering the next ball. I think you are on the right track when it comes to not being able to cap a pneu'd trigger and ease of use of electronics. Even if that weren't the issue, im just saying the pneumatic trigger, as used in a similar fashion to the pneumag, is relatively new. Seven or eight years doesn't, in my opinion, make for old technology in a sport that is thirty years old. Especially when being compared to marker manufacturing progress as a whole in that time period. I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, just looking at it from a different perspective I guess.

[OPBN]

I guess too that the Automag design problaby lends itself more to a pneumatic setup than some other markers. Anyone ever tried a PneuSpyder?

[Spider-TW]

Also, a fully pneumatic frame can't be capped, nor could it have competed in the unlimited BPS wars that ensued over the past 10+ years. I would venture a guess that fully pneumatic systems would also simply be too complex for most 13 year olds wanting to spray 25bps right out of the box.

Add rate of fire to your criteria. When you say "nor could it have competed", do mean they were not capable or not allowed? Pneus do take a lot of effort to run in the teens, but for RT's that's cruising altitude.

There was some discussion about GoG trying to use a double trigger on the enmy. The vibe and enmy rate of fire goes along with the "soft" bolt stroke and low pressure. They are strangely unlike an ion, in that there is not a lot you can do to them practically as modifications.

The nice part about electronics is that you can use the same marker as the players and insurance companies change their minds. Sometimes they want a hard rate limit, or you can't play with that particular marker. If I tune a mechanical marker to be capable of 14 bps, I may be out of luck even though it doesn't have an LPR. On the other hand, you can build 10,000 electronic boards, connect them to off-the-shelf solenoids for pretty cheap, and still be confident that you can cap the ROF where you want. Can you imagine the mess if you wanted to ship 10,000 Tippmann F/As?

My RTs liked 15 bps pretty well. As it is, I have to be careful with my RT setups to stay below 13 bps. At least the chronographs are pretty good with rate measurements.

[OPBN]

Add rate of fire to your criteria. When you say "nor could it have competed", do mean they were not capable or not allowed? Pneus do take a lot of effort to run in the teens, but for RT's that's cruising altitude.
.I'm saying its not possible for the average Joe to acheive much above 12bps with a strictly pneumatic frame and would have gotten lost in the shuffle with electros putting out 20bps+. Since I'm not talking about Mags here, RTing doesnt enter into the discussion.

Also not debating need for excessive high ROF, just stating a fact that in a competition for ROF, an Electro is going to win every time.

[Spider-TW]

I'm saying its not possible for the average Joe to acheive much above 12bps with a strictly pneumatic frame and would have gotten lost in the shuffle with electros putting out 20bps+. Since I'm not talking about Mags here, RTing doesnt enter into the discussion.

Also not debating need for excessive high ROF, just stating a fact that in a competition for ROF, an Electro is going to win every time.

So if you had a production pneumatic marker, how fast do you want it to shoot?

[OPBN]

So if you had a production pneumatic marker, how fast do you want it to shoot?

? Speed would be determined by the ability of the shooter of course. It just needs to be walkable. Easily.

[BTAutoMag]

so... 30bps?

[OPBN]

so... 30bps?On a strictly pneumatic marker? That would be absurd.

[dboggs79]

On a strictly pneumatic marker? That would be absurd.
Lol, yes it is. Those would be some pretty quick fingers. Ive hit twenty in uncapped semi, but no way could I sustain that. I can't imagine anyone hitting 30 much else even coming close to sustaining a rate like that. We are talking a pneu, no RT or batteries.

[OPBN]

Lol, yes it is. Those would be some pretty quick fingers. Ive hit twenty in uncapped semi, but no way could I sustain that. I can't imagine anyone hitting 30 much else even coming close to sustaining a rate like that. We are talking a pneu, no RT or batteries.

Your girlfriend would be estatic though.....

Somehow we have veered off course. You can't determine a ROF on a pneu only frame. It would be up to the individuals skill. Also, I am not saying high ROF is better, I am simply asking why does no one offer a truly walkable pneumatic only production marker? The technology should be there... My own answer to myself is that perhaps the idea wasnt pursued heavily since an electro can be made easier and probably cheaper and acheive a higher rof so it wasnt deemed worth it. Also not being able to cap it, would make it somewhat difficult to use at the tourney level which in turn would make it not very desireable etc, etc.

[dboggs79]

The technology is, but is the need? It wouldn't really have any benefit over any other marker currently being produced. Other than not having to change batteries. The cost of retooling and manufacturing wouldn't be made up. I can't see it anyhow.

[OPBN]

The technology is, but is the need? It wouldn't really have any benefit over any other marker currently being produced. Other than not having to change batteries. The cost of retooling and manufacturing wouldn't be made up. I can't see it anyhow.

I kind of disagree. I think it would be appealing to some. Probably not the majority that want to to be able to flip a switch and go full auto, but I think if it was reliable and well built it would be appealing to enough people to garner a following. Getting it to be tourney legal would possibly be a hurdle.

And if it were a ground up build, there would be no retooling necessary.

[need4reebs]

some patent had a part in this

[OPBN]

some patent had a part in this

Source?

[Frizzle Fry]

some patent had a part in this

I'm surprised Forrest and Tracy haven't delivered those Gardner dicks a C&D yet.

[need4reebs]

Source?

the G-Force threads as well as some older pneumag threads

[Frizzle Fry]

the G-Force threads as well as some older pneumag threads

Which is all Armson/Benchmark/PTP property.

[OPBN]

Which is all Armson/Benchmark/PTP property.

PTP made a pneumatic marker?

[zondo]

PTP made a pneumatic marker?

Nope... but I believe they own the patent on it. That is why you see only pneumag kits and the G-force guys had issues from the beginning getting their frames.

Also, didn't AGD mess with a pneumatic trigger? AGD Rob has the HAir, or something...

[river031403]

You mean the same ptp that screwed up all those MICROMAG bodies? Yikes hate to see the fix on there pneumatic setup :rofl:

[need4reebs]

Nope... but I believe they own the patent on it. That is why you see only pneumag kits and the G-force guys had issues from the beginning getting their frames.

Also, didn't AGD mess with a pneumatic trigger? AGD Rob has the HAir, or something...

yeah colin fron DW and AGD Rob were working on the Hair...i think...i know they had some Sa WeeT Dallaras with a Hair Trigger:hail:

hair trigger Dallara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MalRXBI4s

G-Force Mag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbxFFzorMoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLE_mtAOBq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAdhmRHOYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgxNg0RGLis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cODXxzpqb4g

[zondo]

yeah colin fron DW and AGD Rob were working on the Hair...i think...i know they had some Sa WeeT Dallaras with a Hair Trigger:hail:

hair trigger Dallara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MalRXBI4s

G-Force Mag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbxFFzorMoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLE_mtAOBq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAdhmRHOYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgxNg0RGLis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cODXxzpqb4g

has anyone posted pics of the guts of the hAir? Dang that pull looks tight...

[need4reebs]

has anyone posted pics of the guts of the hAir? Dang that pull looks tight...

mite wanna ask AGD Rob? but thats the only video i have seen of it!!! there are a few Autococker Hair trigger videos that show the internals tho?

[river031403]

I would love for somebody to build a hair out of a bob long type frame something with some room for the fingers to fly

[need4reebs]

I would love for somebody to build a hair out of a bob long type frame something with some room for the fingers to fly

or a UMF frame?

[river031403]

Ya umf frame is cool maybe a little slimmer though IMO

[need4reebs]

Ya umf frame is cool maybe a little slimmer though IMO

wat u got girly hands...tha UMF is slim enough:headbang:

[Frizzle Fry]

You mean the same ptp that screwed up all those MICROMAG bodies? Yikes hate to see the fix on there pneumatic setup :rofl:

The same PTP who has been in the paintball business for almost 25 years?

The same PTP who invented the HalfBlock Autococker?

The same PTP who released the first 45 frame for Automags and Autocockers?

The same PTP who invented the UniBody Automag?

The same PTP who released the first Autococker-Threaded Automag body?

The same PTP who designed a mechanically walkable frame that could swap between Autocockers AND Automags?

The same PTP who designed the first VM68 body that could be field-stripped without tools and supported a vertical bottle?

The same PTP who teamed up with Tom Kaye and FN Herstal to design the FN-303, the ultimate less-lethal weapon?

The same PTP who designed an integrated detente system during an era when many went without, one that lasts 15+ years without rebuild?


ProTeam Products, Benchmark and Armson were pioneers in the industry since it could be considered an industry. They partnered with Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) and PK Selective (the daddy of creative anodizing) to create the original Private Label marker, complete with never-before-seen technological upgrades and modifications that would not hit production markers until literally years later. PTP was offering wild color schemes when markers came in "black" or "gray", before major companies even offered the standard "Red, Blue, Black, Silver" lineup. They were also well ahead of the curve with MilSim upgrades for the Tippmann product line, offering military grade stocks/sites/for-ends years before the big MilSim sites started pushing plastic, almost a decade before Tippmann (and then BT) started offering factory packages.

Before you tear them a new one, look at what they've done. PTP has a few dozen "wins" on the books, less than a handful of "draws" (products that didn't take off), and only one real "loss"; the Micromag 2009. They have 6 generations of AMAZING Micromags that to this day sell for the same price as a brand new modern mid-range electro. They make mortars and landmines for the US Military now, and sighting systems for all manner of different firearms manufacturers. Paintball has been the last thing on their minds for about 8 years, and when they came back by the DEMAND of a few long time fans to create a marker that they knew they wouldn't make dime one on, they did, and it was not a success. Be that as it may, they still created some of the greatest paintball products ever made and that should be acknowledged.

[zondo]

The same PTP who has been in the paintball business for almost 25 years?

The same PTP who invented the HalfBlock Autococker?

The same PTP who released the first 45 frame for Automags and Autocockers?

The same PTP who invented the UniBody Automag?

The same PTP who released the first Autococker-Threaded Automag body?

The same PTP who designed a mechanically walkable frame that could swap between Autocockers AND Automags?

The same PTP who designed the first VM68 body that could be field-stripped without tools and supported a vertical bottle?

The same PTP who teamed up with Tom Kaye and FN Herstal to design the FN-303, the ultimate less-lethal weapon?

The same PTP who designed an integrated detente system during an era when many went without, one that lasts 15+ years without rebuild?


ProTeam Products, Benchmark and Armson were pioneers in the industry since it could be considered an industry. They partnered with Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) and PK Selective (the daddy of creative anodizing) to create the original Private Label marker, complete with never-before-seen technological upgrades and modifications that would not hit production markers until literally years later. PTP was offering wild color schemes when markers came in "black" or "gray", before major companies even offered the standard "Red, Blue, Black, Silver" lineup. They were also well ahead of the curve with MilSim upgrades for the Tippmann product line, offering military grade stocks/sites/for-ends years before the big MilSim sites started pushing plastic, almost a decade before Tippmann (and then BT) started offering factory packages.

Before you tear them a new one, look at what they've done. PTP has a few dozen "wins" on the books, less than a handful of "draws" (products that didn't take off), and only one real "loss"; the Micromag 2009. They have 6 generations of AMAZING Micromags that to this day sell for the same price as a brand new modern mid-range electro. They make mortars and landmines for the US Military now, and sighting systems for all manner of different firearms manufacturers. Paintball has been the last thing on their minds for about 8 years, and when they came back by the DEMAND of a few long time fans to create a marker that they knew they wouldn't make dime one on, they did, and it was not a success. Be that as it may, they still created some of the greatest paintball products ever made and that should be acknowledged.

Neat. But I still want my MM2K9 to shoot over 250 FPS. :argh:

[need4reebs]

Neat. But I still want my MM2K9 to shoot over 250 FPS. :argh:

wat barrel are you using? is it a under .687?

[zondo]

wat barrel are you using? is it a under .687?

Under bore through over bore, dialed up 2 known good xvalves until the reg hit the stop. 250 is the max I get to.

[Patron God of Pirates]

To bad this thread got hijacked. I would love to see a fully pneumatic walk-able production marker. For me that means a pneumatic force feed loader as well. No batteries at all.

[KurtPB]

Seems Tippmann would be the closest one with that technology? Cyclone feed, Crossover? Wasn't there a "Turbo" loader or something, too, that had an air line? There's always a mech-ion kit as well but not sure how much those can be tuned to make walkable.

[need4reebs]

Under bore through over bore, dialed up 2 known good xvalves until the reg hit the stop. 250 is the max I get to.

damn...mine always was chrono'd between 270-280 for field limits...280 max

[sQuidvision]

yeah colin fron DW and AGD Rob were working on the Hair...i think...i know they had some Sa WeeT Dallaras with a Hair Trigger:hail:

hair trigger Dallara:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MalRXBI4sis it at all known what the pneus. Looked like in there? Components used? Does anyone know where these frames are these days?

[need4reebs]

is it at all known what the pneus. Looked like in there? Components used? Does anyone know where these frames are these days?

not sure what it looked like and not sure how many were made or where they are these days...just found them thru researching pneumags

there is a video of a autococker hair trigger that shows some of the internals and it looks like the way a pneumag is built

it sounds just as fast as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV9KfjuO5Vk

and:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEow82XO_E

and:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHORgVbPsVs
haha enjoy tha song at the end!

and here is a G-force frame that is on this guys Dallara hair trigger his name looks pretty familiar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSAdhmRHOYY

[OPBN]

Dug around and found the thread regarding PTP/DW and the patent stuff. Some of it is interesting. In the end its sad because its just sitting there not getting used. Sucks for us.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?162604-Official-Deadlywind-hAir-trigger-update

Wondering if this is why the Cheater ended up going away?

[need4reebs]

Dug around and found the thread regarding PTP/DW and the patent stuff. Some of it is interesting. In the end its sad because its just sitting there not getting used. Sucks for us.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?162604-Official-Deadlywind-hAir-trigger-update

Wondering if this is why the Cheater ended up going away?

time, money, and life prolly happened

[OPBN]

time, money, and life prolly happened

I just remember someone mentioning legal problems and then when someone else sometime later talked about possibly restarting to make them, they suddenly said they werent going to and it went poof. Just made me wonder. Considering it is a really simply design, makes no sense why someone like Luke, or pretty much anyone hasnt picked this up if there wasnt a reason not to.... like legal action.

[need4reebs]

I just remember someone mentioning legal problems and then when someone else sometime later talked about possibly restarting to make them, they suddenly said they werent going to and it went poof. Just made me wonder. Considering it is a really simply design, makes no sense why someone like Luke, or pretty much anyone hasnt picked this up if there wasnt a reason not to.... like legal action.

yeah there were a lot legal issues, but your right a lot of good ideas and/or products just disappeared...so who knows what or why all that happened...its a bummer tho!!

[sQuidvision]

Dug around and found the thread regarding PTP/DW and the patent stuff. Some of it is interesting. In the end its sad because its just sitting there not getting used. Sucks for us.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?162604-Official-Deadlywind-hAir-trigger-update

Wondering if this is why the Cheater ended up going away?

Jesus h Christ that thread is a ****storm! Too bad... That video of the hAir had me pumped!

[Frizzle Fry]

All I can say is "cooperate" in these situations usually does not mean "want to pay your dues", and I have a feeling DW did not want to pay their dues. You also have to consider that BOTH AGD and PTP were bowing out of the industry around '03-'04, generally for the same reason.

Tippmann paid a large one-time fee to use the Response Trigger kit they sell - this is because it bears incredible similarity to the Boston Paintball Reflex kit that predates it. Kingman pays a percentage for their anti-chop bolt, because it bears resemblance to the Boston Paintball JAM bolt that predates it. When someone invents something and patents it, and you come up with a similar idea later, you need to negotiate and you need to understand that you will be making money with property belonging to someone else. This doesn't make Boston Paintball evil, it just means they're not STUPID and don't want to let someone rob them.

That thread is all full of "big guy, little guy" talk and I can tell you that if you call PTP any day of the week you will get Forrest or Tracy, the husband and wife team who spent years letting people use their (patented) 2-piece barrel design, their (patented) half block autococker design, their (patented) double trigger 45 frame design. When it came to the big stuff their (patented) unibody Automag design, (patented) Emag design, their (patented) bolt-on feedneck design, or any other number of their patents, they chose to enforce and people producing markers and parts chose to pay the fee or pay the percentage that was owed to the original designer.

This is the only thing ANYONE should take away from that thread:

you can't assemble an infringing product from non-infringing components without infringing on the patent.

edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.

I'm not 'up in arms' about this thing, but I am personally annoyed about it. Why?

Here's why.

PTP has spent YEARS being ripped off by other people. I can't even begin to tell you how much of what every player uses on a daily basis was originally designed and brought to market FIRST by PTP - only to have it copied, ripped off, etc., by other companies.

During all of that time (15+ years in the industry) the company NEVER took retaliatory measures - they sucked it up and kept moving forward.

Percentage wise, PTP has offered more support and aid to beginning teams and tournament series than just about anyone I can think of; among other things, it was one of the first, if not the first sponsor on board with institutions like the IAO, NPPL, the Memphis Indoor, Jax Warriors, Team Strange, etc. Often in circumstances where it could ill-afford those expenses, but it went ahead and did it anyway to support the industry and the players.

PTP puts a LARGE percentage of its effort and dollars into safety - more so than the vast majority; they are in large part responsible for things like the goggle standards, the requirement for a trigger guard on all guns, standardizing the weight of paint and, again, making untold numbers of substantial contributions at their own time and expense.

Then, after all of the foregoing, PTP had to face the reality that they could not continue to support such efforts without making some changes, one of which was to start investing in intellectual property protection for their concepts and designs.

That, too, carried with it a tremendous investment in time and dollars; it was done the right way, with the intention of using it to protect PTP's investments and never done to 'do' other people.

So far, PTP has engaged in numerous IP negotiations with other paintball companies - none of which have been seen by the public, none of which have raised an eyebrow or caused anyone to question PTP's motives - at least one of which contributed greatly to the the 'Automag cause'. (It was PTP's patent that become the E-Mag...)

This thing, however, has gone way beyond all reason: people with little or no ability to be able to compare two products side-by-side making claims of superiority: people with little or no experience with business trying to tell PTP what to do with ITS dollars, time and resources: people with no knowledge of the history of this thing casting PTP in the role of 'bad guy': people with absolutely no knowledge of intellectual property law making snap judgements about PTP's motives.

And why? two reasons. DW decided to hype their product (the future of which was not secured even for manufacturing by DW at the time) and a bunch of people decided to make them the 'good guys', for no apparent reason other than they were 'promising' to deliver something that would 'save' the automag. Even if you go back to DW's own postings on the subject, there was NEVER any guarantee of if or when it would be on the market.

And the second reason? PTP's own reluctance to get on here and tell you all what has really happened behind the scenes. Its not anyone else's business but the parties involved. I can say, however, that PTP has entered into GOOD FAITH negotiations with anyone who was interested in pursuing such things.

So yeah, I'm pissed off at the way these threads have gone. You all ought to be grateful that I'm not the one that owns the patent; I'm much more cut-throat than the folks at PTP (as in, they aren't cut-throat AT ALL.)

I'm pissed at the way a company that I worked for for 7+ years is being portrayed, when I know from personal experience (and some degree of frustration) that PTP is anything BUT the kind of company some of you all have described it as, and it galls me on a daily basis to have to sift through the utter idiocy that I read in here. Talk about swallowing things hook, line AND sinker!

I know PTP hasn't earned the love lately with the MM2k9 situation, but I can't help but point to a decade and a half of supreme innovation that drove the industry to where it is today. Or a decade and a half of commitment to safety in the sport, even when it wasn't profitable. Or a decade and a half of providing a quality product that was consistently a step above the competition.

[OPBN]

With all that ^^^ said, I still think it sucks that someone holds the patent on something and refuses to bring a product to market. My guess is the fee must be exceedingly high to keep someone from producing it. Guess we'll have to wait another 15 years or so before the patents go away before we can have a nice fully pnuematic marker.

[Frizzle Fry]

With all that ^^^ said, I still think it sucks that someone holds the patent on something and refuses to bring a product to market. My guess is the fee must be exceedingly high to keep someone from producing it. Guess we'll have to wait another 15 years or so before the patents go away before we can have a nice fully pnuematic marker.

Not too high for plenty of other companies to pay it on a regular basis; everyone read what the guy from DW said - he felt he didn't have to pay anything, and therefore any fee or percentage would be considered too much. It's not uncommon in any industry, and I can say from experience that ProTeam/Armson/Benchmark are more than fair (and more fair than industry standard).

I can say this with certainty; the product made it to the point where it was fully tested and ready to go into full production, but then someone at PTP realized it was 2005 (the year of the Ego) and that Automags and Autocockers were effectively a dead market. That's why PTP sells quite a bit of Tippmann MilSim gear, and people occasionally buy old stock of their old OOP product through the website, but their focus is elsewhere and they are not staffed or geared towards the production of paintball products. They were (in my eyes undisputably) the KINGS of Autocockers and Automags from 1991-???? and clearly one of if not the longest running custom shops, but their flagship marker designs finally died out and the sport moved in a new direction.

[OPBN]

I must have missed the part where Nicad said he didnt feel he needed to pay anything. I breezed through the thread because most of it was filled with butthurt and idiocy. From the posts of his I remember, it seemed like he was willing to work with PTP to resolve the issue. Maybe I misread.

Wonder if GOG is paying royalties for the EnMy?

* Edit. Just to be clear, I am not bashing PTP in any way. I love my MM2K9 and the other MicroMags I have had along the way. Simply would like to see a nicely made fully pneumatic marker made.

[Frizzle Fry]

I must have missed the part where Nicad said he didnt feel he needed to pay anything. I breezed through the thread because most of it was filled with butthurt and idiocy. From the posts of his I remember, it seemed like he was willing to work with PTP to resolve the issue. Maybe I misread.

Wonder if GOG is paying royalties for the EnMy?

* Edit. Just to be clear, I am not bashing PTP in any way. I love my MM2K9 and the other MicroMags I have had along the way. Simply would like to see a nicely made fully pneumatic marker made.

Hey man, it was a **** to get my MM2K9 working. Longest it ever took me to tune a Level 10, had to make my own on/off pin, adjust the emag frame in ways I never thought I had to, etc. I'm not trying to defend every move they've made, just the majority of them. I'm also not guessing you're bashing because it seems like you've owned some ProTeam swag over the years too.

If you look at some of Nicads posts (and I agree they are burried under stupidity), he says things like "well, so-and-so didn't have to pay royalties when he made the Nova, and this marker was pneumatically triggered too, and...". I don't doubt he wanted to work with ProTeam, but his idea of "working with them" clearly didn't meet Forrests expectations as the holder of the IP. PTP offered to sit down with anybody interested; at least two other companies felt it was a fair deal.

[OPBN]

at least two other companies felt it was a fair deal. ?

Funny I hear of so many issues with the MM2K9. Only issue I had was the first body I got had an ano flaw. I sent it back and had a replacement in a couple of weeks. Put the thing together and it ripped from the word "go". I still think something happened along the way. Seems like there are perfect ones and some with issues. With all the time it took I would venture a guess that something changed along the way to cause the issues.

[Frizzle Fry]

?

Funny I hear of so many issues with the MM2K9. Only issue I had was the first body I got had an ano flaw. I sent it back and had a replacement in a couple of weeks. Put the thing together and it ripped from the word "go". I still think something happened along the way. Seems like there are perfect ones and some with issues. With all the time it took I would venture a guess that something changed along the way to cause the issues.

I heard of a lot of issues too, but mine were just the usual "frankenmag" problems but a little more frustrating. I set up my body for giggles in a mechanical setup when I first got it (without the stainless washer) and it ripped, granted I never tuned the bolt or chrono'ed. Then I threw an emag frame on there and the washer in all hell broke loose; I had to modify an on/off pin after trying all the sizes, I had to use a custom length spring cut down by hand, and finally it took me forever to get the frame to work both electronically and mechanically.

Not "manufacturing defects" in my eyes, just "frankenmag" issues. When you've got parts from all different sources there will be tolerance variances. I've seen (rarely) those mags made out of a parts box that just won't shoot.

[GoatBoy]

The same PTP who has been in the paintball business for almost 25 years?

The same PTP who invented the HalfBlock Autococker?

The same PTP who released the first 45 frame for Automags and Autocockers?

The same PTP who invented the UniBody Automag?

The same PTP who released the first Autococker-Threaded Automag body?

The same PTP who designed a mechanically walkable frame that could swap between Autocockers AND Automags?

The same PTP who designed the first VM68 body that could be field-stripped without tools and supported a vertical bottle?

The same PTP who teamed up with Tom Kaye and FN Herstal to design the FN-303, the ultimate less-lethal weapon?

The same PTP who designed an integrated detente system during an era when many went without, one that lasts 15+ years without rebuild?


Would it be weird to say that I've managed to survive all this time without owning any of these products (unless you want to credit them for the fact that ULE bodies have cocker threading)?

You bring all this up to try to highlight their ... relevance, but is it possible that you highlighted the exact opposite?


(I take that back. I picked up a Micromag once off Craigslist which I immediately sold off.)

[Frizzle Fry]

You bring all this up to try to highlight their ... relevance, but is it possible that you highlighted the exact opposite?

I'm not even sure how to respond to that... it's pretty clear you don't understand what I'm saying.

They made the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, and were followed by innumerable "big" heavy hitter companies (off the top of my head Shocktech, ANS, TASO, CCM, P&P, Sanchez, DYE, Belsales, KAPP... there are more I'm sure). They did this before even WGP offered it, and it became an industry standard for almost a decade.

They installed detentes on their Autocockers before WGP offered them, and when other custom shops and private labels were offering a bent paper clip to keep from double feeding, they had already designed a system that was durable and didn't ever shred paint or require a replacement. On their Automags they did the same, as AGD was still offering wire detentes at the time.

When the only markers with AC barrel threads were Autocockers, they offered Automags with AC threads which it took AGD years to catch up with. It has since become an undeniable industry standard; literally every mid range and high end marker is Autococker threaded and that has been the case for at least ten years.

When everyone was chopping their Autococker and Automag frame to add a double trigger, they made a frame with an integrated double trigger guard. Rather than have an unsafe guardless frame, or bolt on a hideous hunk of metal, you had a solid frame intended for use with a double trigger.

The pinnacle of Automag technology, everyones white whale and the most beloved AGD product, the Xmag, is a descendent of the Micromag. The Emag frame was designed with PTPs help too. Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) worked closely with Forrest and the rest at PTP during the formative years of paintball, and right up to the decline of both WGP and AGD.

They were trendsetters who were ahead of their time in almost everything they did with their production markers, and their innovations with Automags and Autocockers (the two marker platforms that overwhelmingly dominated the industry for a decade). They offered features that nobody else did, with the production quality of a high end marker rather than a hack job or garage customization. Their own private label markers were very popular, and many classic private label guns from Pro Shops and Airsmiths were customized using PTP and Benchmark parts. It was rare to visit a Pro Shop that wasn't selling their upgrades right up into the early 2000s.

If you haven't owned a single Armson, Benchmark, or ProTeam Products marker or component, you probably haven't owned many markers (at least not Automags or Autocockers). Even then, chances are that every marker you've owned has at least three features that they pioneered in production markers.

[GoatBoy]

I'm not even sure how to respond to that... it's pretty clear you don't understand what I'm saying.

Maybe I really don't understand what you're saying.



They made the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, and were followed by innumerable "big" heavy hitter companies (off the top of my head Shocktech, ANS, TASO, CCM, P&P, Sanchez, DYE, Belsales, KAPP... there are more I'm sure). They did this before even WGP offered it, and it became an industry standard for almost a decade.

Never owned* any of their frames (see earlier caveat). I'll take your word for it that they did the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, but "45" comes from real firearms. So they took an existing gun frame pattern and used it on a different kind of gun... The prior standard to that was, what, the Lonestar grip, which again came from another firearm?

The Y and Z grips were innovations.



They installed detentes on their Autocockers before WGP offered them, and when other custom shops and private labels were offering a bent paper clip to keep from double feeding, they had already designed a system that was durable and didn't ever shred paint or require a replacement. On their Automags they did the same, as AGD was still offering wire detentes at the time.

But detentes weren't a new feature. They were already available, and already being produced, and already a standard part of other guns.

Don't own any detentes which resemble the PTP detentes. Do the ULE/Angel detentes count? It really doesn't seem that anyone followed suit with their detente style. I guess I can agree with some amount of innovation for their detente design...



When the only markers with AC barrel threads were Autocockers, they offered Automags with AC threads which it took AGD years to catch up with. It has since become an undeniable industry standard; literally every mid range and high end marker is Autococker threaded and that has been the case for at least ten years.

True, I do use cocker threaded barrels. Can't quite point to PTP as the cause for cocker threads becoming dominant though unless there's something more concrete. Again, this is kind of like taking a gun frame and putting it on another gun... they took a paintball barrel and put it it on another paintball gun. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that they didn't just up an invent a completely new thread (although they did have that episode with the non-removable barrel micromags...)

The twist-lock barrel was an innovation.



When everyone was chopping their Autococker and Automag frame to add a double trigger, they made a frame with an integrated double trigger guard. Rather than have an unsafe guardless frame, or bolt on a hideous hunk of metal, you had a solid frame intended for use with a double trigger.

Never really owned* one of their frames. It's hard for me to understand the innovation that comes from making something people were already making anyways. If it were the Chinese doing this, we wouldn't be pointing it out as something historic, we'd be calling it "copying".

Innovation would have been something like a single frame which allows both single and double triggers + guards (see BT/Tippmann).




The pinnacle of Automag technology, everyones white whale and the most beloved AGD product, the Xmag, is a descendent of the Micromag. The Emag frame was designed with PTPs help too. Tom Kaye and Bud Orr (the godfathers of paintball) worked closely with Forrest and the rest at PTP during the formative years of paintball, and right up to the decline of both WGP and AGD.

Never really liked the X-mag or the E-mag. Never owned either. Without details of what exactly went on with these "working sessions" it really is hard for me to understand just what they did, exactly.



They were trendsetters who were ahead of their time in almost everything they did with their production markers, and their innovations with Automags and Autocockers (the two marker platforms that overwhelmingly dominated the industry for a decade). They offered features that nobody else did, with the production quality of a high end marker rather than a hack job or garage customization. Their own private label markers were very popular, and many classic private label guns from Pro Shops and Airsmiths were customized using PTP and Benchmark parts. It was rare to visit a Pro Shop that wasn't selling their upgrades right up into the early 2000s.

I'm trying to understand what the applicable 'innovations' are. Cocker threads and Angel detentes? X/E mags whose inceptions lagged well behind the advent of other electros? Wobbly Benchmark trigger frame quality?



If you haven't owned a single Armson, Benchmark, or ProTeam Products marker or component, you probably haven't owned many markers (at least not Automags or Autocockers). Even then, chances are that every marker you've owned has at least three features that they pioneered in production markers.

I guess you're right; in my opinion I've owned too many markers, but compared to the habits of other people, I have gone through very few.

Do you have a better list of stuff they pioneered? Because the list so far isn't really... convincing.


But still, I can only look over my equipment, past and present, and not see the stamp of Armson/Benchmark/PTP (other than incidental CL stuff that I just got rid of anyways).

[saintnoir]

I think one of the issues is the definitions being used for innovation they were the first to "apply" the .45 frame to paintball but they were the first to use it in paintball,they didnt invent it but they "innovated" its use in it

[brokeass_baller]

They did invent the Lvl. 7 spacer kit. A godsend to the automag back then.

[blackdeath1k]

They did invent the Lvl. 7 spacer kit. A godsend to the automag back then.

No joke. I've actually got one of the old spring setups still in my parts box.

Anyone that can't see PTP as a trend setter and pioneer in paintball apparently was not around in the 90s at all. And in any business you need to patent everything for chance of profiting from your work. And stopping others from steeling it.

[luke]

Seems like there would be a niche market for such a thing. And not something retrofitted, but an actual marker designed from the ground up.

Thoughts?

I put a feeler out with the powers that be to see about striking some kind of a deal so I can make "something".
I haven't started any designs or anything, just waiting to see if we can work something out.

[Frizzle Fry]

ever owned* any of their frames (see earlier caveat). I'll take your word for it that they did the first 45 frame for Autocockers and Automags, but "45" comes from real firearms. So they took an existing gun frame pattern and used it on a different kind of gun... The prior standard to that was, what, the Lonestar grip, which again came from another firearm?

The Y and Z grips were innovations.

Never really owned* one of their frames. It's hard for me to understand the innovation that comes from making something people were already making anyways. If it were the Chinese doing this, we wouldn't be pointing it out as something historic, we'd be calling it "copying".

Innovation would have been something like a single frame which allows both single and double triggers + guards (see BT/Tippmann).
Ok, Lonestar grips were briefly popular, then Euroframes for a while, but 45s are what stuck and have been the industry standard for the bulk of paintballs existence as a sport. The use of a 45 frame on an autococker allowed for a wider variety of grips to be used, providing a wider variety of ergonomic customization - the first company to do that was Benchmark, followed by... literally everybody.

That's trendsetting; that's changing the face of the sport.

Technically compressed air was used for nail guns before paintball markers... Does that make AGD and AAs combined effort to bring compressed air technology to the sport "copying"? Does that negate the impact that the Armaggedon had on the industry?



But detentes weren't a new feature. They were already available, and already being produced, and already a standard part of other guns.
Two guns, actually, the Tippmann 68 Special (all that "detente" did was push your paint into the clearing hole in the breech so it would chop) and the Automag which used wire detents (which had the potential to be a nightmare, hence their replacement with nubbins). I know, I was shooting both of them at the time - it wasn't until a few years later that finger detents started showing up (IIRC it was with the 2nd Gen F1 and the VM68)

Autocockers and Snipers were not shipped with detents, and ball detents were still a ways away. Your choices were to pay someone to modify your marker for the flawed and significantly less effective wired detentes or to put nail polish drops in the barrel and hope. Automags had an inferior detent system (sorry Tom) that was prone to issues a marker shouldn't have (i.e. rust, or sharp things in your breech).

There were plenty of DIY garage jobs, and pro shop modifications, but the reason everyone at my field (myself included) ordered from PTP is they were the only company offering a full production marker with a quality factory detente (one made from self lubricating plastic and a spring, not a paper clip). Yes you could get a made-to-order marker from an Airsmith with a wire detent for twice the cost, but again this was a production marker with a production marker price tag that anyone could but from the catalog.




Never really liked the X-mag or the E-mag. Never owned either. Without details of what exactly went on with these "working sessions" it really is hard for me to understand just what they did, exactly.

The partnered with AGD on the design of the Emag frame and warp feed. They created the unibody automag and made the first threaded (non drop-in) sear pin. They designed the the LVL7 bolt. They built the original FN303 concept, and worked with Tom and FN Herstal to create the final product.



But still, I can only look over my equipment, past and present, and not see the stamp of Armson/Benchmark/PTP (other than incidental CL stuff that I just got rid of anyways).
Again, not owning an Emag (PTP helped design the frame) or an Xmag (PTP created the Autococker unibody) is a choice YOU made, but I highly doubt that the AO community as a whole would discount them or their place in AGD history. They may have been late to the electro game, but they have a much stronger following and much higher value now than any of their predecessors or competitors.



Do you have a better list of stuff they pioneered? Because the list so far isn't really... convincing.
Buddy, your idea of innovations are things that never took off and never will.... The twistlock barrel is dead and has been for years, the Z-frame was dead before it went full production, the Y-frame was only very briefly produced (both from AGD and ICD), and the convertible trigger guard is only found on low-end markers because the three of the four companies that did it with high-end markers went out of business (Hybrid, WDP, System X) and the fourth one stopped doing it years ago (Bob Long).

Meanwhile people use spring loaded delrin detentes every day and every production marker comes with some kind of double feed system, almost every autococker in the last decade and a half came with a 45 frame as a standard, every kid on PBN wants to "half block" their autococker, and the demand for pneumatic automag frames (granted it's a niche market) is through the roof. A used Xmag commands a $1000+ price tag, an Emag a $500+ price tag, both have been out of production for literally a decade. Ten to twenty year old Micromags sell for a minimum of $200 if and when they come on the market, and that's for the plain jane models with plenty of miles on them - many sell for as much as $650.

Here's a list...

-Halfblock Autococker Design
-Removable Feedneck
-Pneumatic Trigger Frame
-45 Style Gripframe ("for Automag and Autococker Applications")
-Unibody Automag Design
-Level 7 Automag bolt
-Rifled Barrel (for paintball applications)
-Emag Frame Design (the first hybrid electronic/mechanical marker)
-Offset & Adjustable Regulator Cradle (designed for the AA Armaggedon reg at launch)


Anyone that can't see PTP as a trend setter and pioneer in paintball apparently was not around in the 90s at all. And in any business you need to patent everything for chance of profiting from your work. And stopping others from steeling it.
That's what I was driving at... At the time, their stuff was a godsend, and the effects were felt throughout the sport and can even be seen today in lowend/midrange mechanical markers as well as midrange electros (specifically the Tippmann Crossover, Tippmann Phenom, Proto SLG, etc). In the last decade, it's really hard to see their effect on the sport because by 2002 they were dealing with "dead" or dying platforms (the Autococker and Automag) and the sport took a sharp turn around that time... By 2004 they were barely engaged in the sport, who knows what they might have come up with if they'd been in 100% instead of 5%? But I'm starting to sound like that crusty old curmudgeon now, so I'll shut up. Sorry for being a dick.

[blackdeath1k]

You don't come off as a dick to me. You come off as someone that was more or less an adult in the EARLY 90s. And was big in the game and equipment. I started playing in 94. But. I was in 6th grade. So when you point a lot of that out. I think back and.... yah! That really is how it was. The 96 autococker was a revelation in new products at the time. Still did not come with a 45. And had the big heavy square cocking block. That was the first mods most did to it though. A benchmark is what my brother in law used for a frame. And a ptp cocking block. It was also the first year a cocker came with a factory screw in ball detent. It worked well for what it was. And I do believe ptp had a lot to do with that. Magazines back then were covered with ptp innovations. Or ptp copied work.

[Patron God of Pirates]

I put a feeler out with the powers that be to see about striking some kind of a deal so I can make "something".
I haven't started any designs or anything, just waiting to see if we can work something out.

Great, I hope you get the OK. I know AO would love to see this get done by a name they trust.

[GoatBoy]

Basically, you're attempting to flood the issue with a lot of fairly minor achievements, maybe the strongest of which was the detente -- the design for which was interesting but not exactly widely in use today, which I guess is a legitimate counter-argument since you used it against things that I would consider innovative. So their claim here was that they made them production-available... Which is something of a lesser claim.

Most of the rest of the stuff is about "bringing stuff to production" etc., or is of questionable technical merit unto itself. I didn't know about the L7 bolt, but I'm not sure where it belongs in the hierarchy either.

Bounding the list on the other end, the worst has got to be the rifled barrel. And again, this is why I'm saying you might actually be doing the opposite of what you're trying to do if you bring the rifled barrel up.

I very well remember seeing Pro-team products in stores and catalogs, etc.

I just never bought into it. Some stuff I acquired incidentally from my Craigslist habit, and if I can't sell it to the next sucker, I just put it in a box and keep it as a tragicomic reminder of just how bad the bad old days used to be. Kind of like this aftermarket Venom bolt that I recently liberated from a friend because it amuses me. Plus I heard it has titanium in it, so it must be worth something.

Just because something became a trend doesn't mean it was a good trend. If the bar is lowered so far that we're just happy with anything that the manufacturers throw at us, then I completely acknowledge your points. The sheer volume of minor notables that Pro-team tried to sell us is indeed impressive, and you have clearly demonstrated this.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Is there any way this argument of the merits of PTP can be exorcised into its own thread?