Some People Never Learn

[going_home]

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?44242-URGENT!-FX-Cocker-Pump-Body-Kit

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.


(page 14)

:nono:

[Drix]

I feel sorry for both parties on this, but I feel the need to put some responsibility on rrfireblade, I feel like this is one of those things you'd look for when prototyping- he seems to have lost his edge.

I love my PTP cocker and would have loved to have another, but I figured I couldn't go without that kind of money for two years with minimal results again *wince*

[mpsd]

Wow... Better wait and buy at half price after its delivered. I am almost asking if it comes with a t-shirt as well...

EDIT: I just saw the results. What's wrong with Tracy!?!? Didn't she have enough with us? And now they do it again?? What a shame...

[Drix]

I am almost asking if it comes with a t-shirt as well...

I think we should just be happy with our bonus stickers and call it a day :rolleyes:

*edit*
I found our shirts (http://otterpaintball.spreadshirt.com/ptp-micromag-t-shirt-A10897389)

[brokeass_baller]

Wait, what's going on? More crap work from PTP?

Such a freaking shame. Their work used to be that of legends.

[Ando]

but I feel the need to put some responsibility on rrfireblade,
All blame should be put on PTP for using him again. Why they did is beyond me. He f'ed up the 2k??? Mag bodies. Doesn't surprise me one bit he screwed this up too.


Another excellent product PTP. OutFreakingStanding!!!

[Bunny]

Yikes.... what a mess! Luckily they will replace all the bodies.

Btw, I have always been under the assumption that Proteam Products were never up to AGD specs. There is always something "different" about them. Check out this thread to see what people were doing in 2001 about their Micromags/eMicro's. Check out RobAGD and BlackVCG comments about it.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?5749-Disgusted-with-Pro-Team

You are right, some people never learn....

[Frizzle Fry]

Yikes.... what a mess! Luckily they will replace all the bodies.

Btw, I have always been under the assumption that Proteam Products were never up to AGD specs. There is always something "different" about them. Check out this thread to see what people were doing in 2001 about their Micromags/eMicro's. Check out RobAGD and BlackVCG comments about it.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?5749-Disgusted-with-Pro-Team

You are right, some people never learn....

I have never had a problem with anything other than the 2009 Micromag (and obviously the 2013 Autococker) and I have owned over 100 markers over the years, purchased both new and used.

It's funny that you mention "AGD specs" being that the Emag frame was a joint effort between AGD and PTP, and that the "AGD spec" for unibody markers by AGD Europe was inherently tied to the PTP design. That thread was from 2001; the Emag frame only came into being in late 2000 - troubleshooting and field testing is a process that almost never ends before a product is released.

You have there two examples of markers where the tolerances were off, and there are thousands of examples of their markers between 1992 and 2004 that worked fine. There are enough variances with any production marker that there will be bad units that make it past QC without being caught... And it seems like they tried their hardest to fix it, and made it right in the long run.

In the last few years, I can remember...

Angel A1 - Bolt snaps, launches out barrel (RECALLED)

Tippmann A5 - Back cap snaps, launches hammer (RECALLED)

Bob Long Vice - Bits of metal lodged in walls of lower tube (REPLACED)

Azodin KAOS - Bolt snaps, launches out back (NOT FIXED, NOT ACKNOWLEDGED)

BT SA-17 - Launches 12g cartridges in shooters face (RECALLED)

Vanguard Creed - Where do I start? (NOT FIXED, OPEN-ENDED DISCLAIMER ADDED)

Dangerous Power "anything" - Where do I start? (NOT FIXED, NOT ACKNOWLEDGED)

Machine Vapor - Where do I start? (NOT FIXED, OUT OF BUSINESS)

[Bunny]

Frizzle Fry: The most interesting part of that thread wasn't the two examples, it was the fact that RobAGD and BlackVCG (AGD Techs from early 2000s) had so many issues with Micromags that they didn't even want to bother with them anymore. I could only imagine how many mags they worked on back in the day....

I'm not trying to troll PTP by any means; I actually really like a lot of their products. It just frustrates me that there are so many people willing to pre-order parts only to have them come out with crappy tolerances or not come out at all... The "people" who never learn are the customers, not the manufacture. :D

[mpsd]

I think we should just be happy with our bonus stickers and call it a day :rolleyes:

*edit*
I found our shirts (http://otterpaintball.spreadshirt.com/ptp-micromag-t-shirt-A10897389)

What bonus sticker? I didn't get any! LOL

By the way, let me clarify something. I have several Micromags. Gen 1 (short fixed barrel), Gen 3, 2000 and a 2K9. I honestly never had a problem with any of them (even though I didn't really use the 2K9 but the valve fit all right). I also have several other accessories from them, be it barrels, trigger frames, expansion chambers etc. What bothers me so much is how they screwed up their own name. I don't think anyone should be blamed other than themselves, especially Tracy, who had such a childish reaction when people started complaining about the products they didn't receive for a couple years and, afterwards, how she never returned anyone's money for the problem they caused. Because of that, I will never buy anything new from them again. Not only it's not worth the price they charge, they also don't deserve my business any more. And that's my opinion, only.

:cheers:

[GoatBoy]

Seems like both a misdesign AND a manufacturing issue.

It's awesome that they used rails to attach the feed tube thingy. Picatinny would have been nicer, but whatevs.

They should have attached the feed neck via the exact same mechanism (and that's where the extra beefy Picatinny would be useful). The part could be threaded again, although really the whole idea of (threaded-)feednecks-as-structural-component just needs to go away. Maybe someone will figure it out in the next 30 years. Or not.

See also: SA-17, Empire Trracer, TM-7, TM-15, etc.

Bad design right in that area, and worse execution.


Missteps will happen; it's the response that counts. So now we get to see how PTP responds. Again. As if we needed another example.

[RehKal]

You guys are seriously making me worry about whether or not my completely untouched, unassembled MM 2k9 is going to work or not.... I should put some parts on it just to check it out...

[Spider-TW]

You guys are seriously making me worry about whether or not my completely untouched, unassembled MM 2k9 is going to work or not.... I should put some parts on it just to check it out...

Lol. Check it before you get too far into the project. Idk how many actually had problems, I got lost in that mammoth thread. The first thing is making sure the valve and bolt will fit in the body. Another was to make sure the bolt spring has enough space to move. IIRC, they opted for the 7000 series aluminum to preclude the need for a body washer (for the bolt spring to push against). Keeping that wall thickness seems to have tripped them up at least a few times.

[RehKal]

And here I was thinking I was lucky to get in on the original sale of them. I was able to take someones place who had to give up their slot. The MM 2k9 has been in storage ever since due to my work related travelling... suppose I could stick my pneu frame and valve on there for testing...

[MAGgot]

Yikes.... what a mess! Luckily they will replace all the bodies.

Btw, I have always been under the assumption that Proteam Products were never up to AGD specs. There is always something "different" about them. Check out this thread to see what people were doing in 2001 about their Micromags/eMicro's. Check out RobAGD and BlackVCG comments about it.
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?5749-Disgusted-with-Pro-Team

You are right, some people never learn....

I just want to nip this in the butt. The thread you linked to is about the MicroEmag and BlackVCG provided 1 example of an Micro RT valve that needed a different length pin.

I currently own 14 Micromags and have owned/ worked on countless more. The classic Micromags DO NOT HAVE TOLERANCE ISSUES. You can take any working AGD classic valve, drop it into any working classic PTP Micromag and have a working marker.

With that said, it's very sad to see the 2k9 and 2k13 projects going so awfully.

[knownothingmags]

Lol. Check it before you get too far into the project. Idk how many actually had problems, I got lost in that mammoth thread. The first thing is making sure the valve and bolt will fit in the body. Another was to make sure the bolt spring has enough space to move. IIRC, they opted for the 7000 series aluminum to preclude the need for a body washer (for the bolt spring to push against). Keeping that wall thickness seems to have tripped them up at least a few times.

no washer is still used, they just dont press fit them anymore.
it would be stupid to let steel spring continously repeat an action on aluminum.

[knownothingmags]

And here I was thinking I was lucky to get in on the original sale of them. I was able to take someones place who had to give up their slot. The MM 2k9 has been in storage ever since due to my work related travelling... suppose I could stick my pneu frame and valve on there for testing...

the three i have had/have worked fine, two i have sold and i still have a boss dustblack one.

[Drix]

What bonus sticker? I didn't get any! LOL :cheers:

87576

Am I the only one?

[Bunny]

MAGgot: I felt like the thread had more information than just the eMicro in question from the OP. First and foremost.... Pro Team actually swapped the broken eMicro for a Tequila fade Emag. It sucks that they had to do it, but they did the right thing in the end. So kudos to them. The reason why I posted the thread was..


MicroMags just have sloppy tolerances. I don't like the Benchmark frames that come with them and I don't like the way the body is designed. Almost every Mag I worked on was a PTP MicroMag. We had one MicroMag RT that needed a .765" pin because it was too reactive with any pin that was shorter. This was more than likely due to bad tolerances in the mainbody. They can be okay guns, but I'd much rather have to work on an AGD product.

As soon as I saw the 2k9 issues I immediately thought of this thread. I remember reading it and was shocked that two knowledgable technicians said the same thing about the tolerances of a micromag. Since I live in the archives of AO, its hard to compare 2013 to 2001. It is second nature for you guys to troubleshoot the issue now, but back 10+ years ago people didn't know what was going on.

O ya, it also doesn't help that there are MicroMag knockoffs still floating around... :D

I would love to outline my thoughts on the issues of Micromag tolerances, eMicro on/off pins sears BODY SPACERS, the 2k9ish mag , and the great recall of 2013, but there seems to be a lot of MicroMag fanatics on the forum right now :D

[wetwrks]

87576

Am I the only one?

You must be because I didn't get any. :tard:

[Spider-TW]

no washer is still used, they just dont press fit them anymore.
it would be stupid to let steel spring continously repeat an action on aluminum.

Which they figured out after shipping...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?259047-2009-PTP-Micromag-Repair-Thread-PTP-Washer-Insert

So, RehKal, check if you have one, as it is probably needed.

[BigEvil]

87576

Am I the only one?

I got one from Tracy at one of the Tunaballs... its on my AGD parts box.

[RehKal]

Which they figured out after shipping...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?259047-2009-PTP-Micromag-Repair-Thread-PTP-Washer-Insert

So, RehKal, check if you have one, as it is probably needed.

Hmm, this will be a problem as I want to get the body annodized once I get all the parts to build it. I highly doubt I have the steel washer as mine was on the original order...

[Drix]

Hmm, this will be a problem as I want to get the body annodized once I get all the parts to build it. I highly doubt I have the steel washer as mine was on the original order...

There was a lengthy period that they were giving these out for free- You might have to pay shipping now but I suspect that PTP has a drawer full of them handy someplace, get in contact here (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?259047-2009-PTP-Micromag-Repair-Thread-PTP-Washer-Insert) to see if they are still available. I see this problem as OUR fault or RRFireblade's, and here's why: We, as orderers, had the ability to design this thing and push the boundary before the pre order. As a community we decided that the 7k aluminum was strong enough to handle the impact forces of the bolt and therefore asked for a non-washer body. This issue should have shown up with RRFireblade when he did the testing looking for mushrooming of the breech, however, as we've noticed this problem seems to be intermittent and spring dependent (he may not have had the correct spring) and/or he may just have not tested it as much as we all presume. Either way, this failure point was what we told them we wanted, not what they decided to give us. I commend them for giving free washers.

[Redic]

Well PTP should get out and stay out of the paintball industry

Sad to see they screwed over more players

[Drix]

Well PTP should get out and stay out of the paintball industry

I could not disagree more. My visit to PTP was an amazing experience and really hit home about how much Forrest and Tracy are dedicated to the sport. IMO, they've forgotten how to work with paintball players in lieu of their bigger and more lucrative government contracts. If I were them I'd build a working prototype first, and say "This is what you're going to have" and leave it like that instead of re-designing on the fly.

[Cokrkilr]

I feel this lies in the designers hands. Not the manufacturer. Yes, lightweight is nice, but really? That one extra pass of the mill for .000xx weight savings was the difference between a failure and a success.

The guy milling them is just doing what he's told to pay his bills. Sure a QC check would be nice. But if I came to you and said, "mill these exactly like this" and I were a paying customer with thousands in other peoples money... would you do it? Yes

Sure ptp may do something to save their name in this deal, but I feel it isn't their fault and it should come at the cost of the designer... not a company just because they are big and powerful.

But I guess that's why jobs like this go to the big dogs, they have the means to correct a multi unit screw up....

[zondo]

I don't think any of the milling was done for weight savings... in fact, they left plenty of meat on there to get them milled with some nice cuts and designs, but no one has taken that plunge yet.

I'm still eagerly awaiting the fix for the velocity issue.

[Cokrkilr]

I think you are talking about the micromag and I'm talking about this cocker issue...

[Fred]

Calling a cocker body complete with backblock and full tube enclosure, not to mention full length, cut for weight savings is a laugh.

Its sloppy, clearly wasn't tested well, and again - like the MM2k9 - is a design that is lacking in the complete thought department.

If the issue is only because the feednecks weren't centered... um. seriously? Blaming 1 failure on another as justification and/or explanation?

Gimme my original AGD spec parts any day over anything from PTP.

[Cokrkilr]

Yeah, but ptp didn't design the body, someone else did and got them involved to make them... that's what I'm trying to say. The designer should have put this through the paces and make.sure his design was spot on before going to ptp...

And I do believe someone thought milling things that close to popping through was a way to save weight or else why do it? Cuz it sure isn't attractive milling...

[going_home]

Just read a few more pages.

I can almost hear the footsteps of the towns people coming with torches.

I probably wouldnt find this as interesting if I had gotten a refund for the proprietary sear pin I paid for

before they finally said they were included, and for the extra t shirt I purchased.






Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana

[GoatBoy]

The guy milling them is just doing what he's told to pay his bills. Sure a QC check would be nice. But if I came to you and said, "mill these exactly like this" and I were a paying customer with thousands in other peoples money... would you do it? Yes

I sort of agree with the first part, the second part... is forthcoming. But yes, the machinist probably just executed exactly per instructions, so he's probably no more to blame than the tools he used.



Sure ptp may do something to save their name in this deal, but I feel it isn't their fault and it should come at the cost of the designer... not a company just because they are big and powerful.

But I guess that's why jobs like this go to the big dogs, they have the means to correct a multi unit screw up....

You know, if I have to sit there and listen to how I don't know anything about some company because I wasn't around paintball in the 90's (which isn't true, but that doesn't mean I don't have to listen to it), you'd think that said company would have piled up enough wisdom to avert obvious disasters in 2013 on gun parts that... well, probably do go back longer than I've been in paintball.

If the machinist didn't know that part A was supposed to meet up with part B, that's fine, he's just the machinist.

But PTP are supposed to be the experts in the matter. They're supposed to know what's going on. They're the ones with all this history that goes back to .45 frames and detentes in the 90's and blah blah blah blah blah blah double triggers blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I mean, if you're going to stamp one of your pet brands on it... QC'ing the product isn't optional. I don't see RRFireblade's name on the final product. I see Armson.

(No offense to you Cokrkilr; love your SN by the way.)

[Cokrkilr]

None taken at all.

I do agree that ptp did produce the final product, its ptp's name on the line. But from the thread that was linked all I really saw was a designer that shaved off too much metal for.any type of tolerance in the milling process... I mean say 75% of the time the machinist loads the block of aluminum dead nuts, there is still a 25% chance it could be off by .00123456789".... and that would bring up the problem they are having now.

If the designer would have left a mm more in his design on the sides of.the body this problem could have been averted to a certain degree... or at least possibly take the failure rate down to 1/30, instead of half of them. That's all I was getting at

[wetwrks]

Guys...PTP has been making paintguns for what...years? Decades?

Then look at what else they are involved with...making grenade launchers for the military.

They are supposed to be the "experts" in this area and have fallen down on the last 2 products they have put out. They have made promises that they have not kept and then have passsed the buck to others.

Would this really fly for a military product? Wonder what would happen if they cut a grenade launcher too thin? Odds are someone would lose a hand and maby their life.

[GoatBoy]

None taken at all.

I do agree that ptp did produce the final product, its ptp's name on the line. But from the thread that was linked all I really saw was a designer that shaved off too much metal for.any type of tolerance in the milling process... I mean say 75% of the time the machinist loads the block of aluminum dead nuts, there is still a 25% chance it could be off by .00123456789".... and that would bring up the problem they are having now.

If the designer would have left a mm more in his design on the sides of.the body this problem could have been averted to a certain degree... or at least possibly take the failure rate down to 1/30, instead of half of them. That's all I was getting at

That's just the feedneck part, which indeed is a design issue and should have been caught at multiple levels.

But now if you go back to the thread, you find that the milling underneath the barrel tube is too aggressive, and the front block o-ring is exposed.

That's what I was referring to with the whole "part A is supposed to meet up with part B" bit. This is high school shop class hijinx sort of stuff.


It reminds me of an experience I had in ... high school shop class. The teacher had a bunch of busywork for us to run on the machines, like the previous learning assignments. Cut this, do that, whatever. So everybody set about mindlessly doing their assignments.

I was apparently the only one that stopped and looked at the entirety of all the tasks and realized they were not just independent busy work, but were meant to fit together. So when I did my tasks, I didn't just do what was asked, I made sure things were cut so that they actually fit. I couldn't do things perfect (in fact to this day I'm really quite terrible at manual labor and making things), but I could err in a way that would mate up with other parts properly. If I cut one part too deep, I cut the mating part a little more shallow. I never redid any parts.

Toward the end of the project, the teacher let the cat out of the bag and everybody assembled their projects, and one by one, each one was graded. The assembled contraptions (turns out it was a desk lamp) were pretty hilarious. The joints were all over the place, arms leaning and twisted like dying trees. I think a few guys scrambled to redo their work, but highest grade I recall was in the 80's, maybe low 90's.

Then I brought mine up to be graded.

The teacher looked at it. Turned it. Looked at it again. Adjusted his glasses. Looked at it some more...

I was the only one to walk away with a perfect 100.

Sometimes, I wonder what became of some of my classmates.

[Cokrkilr]

I missed the part on the o ring :)

After all, one thread was like 20+ pages, the other like 14-15... I have stuff to do :)

And yes I do get the analogy now that I am up to date on the o ring issue, haha. Ill come to a compromise for the sake of at least it was the cocker guys this time, it was 50% horrible design, 50% horrible quality control ;)

[rx2]

Guys...PTP has been making paintguns for what...years? Decades?

Then look at what else they are involved with...making grenade launchers for the military.

They are supposed to be the "experts" in this area and have fallen down on the last 2 products they have put out. They have made promises that they have not kept and then have passsed the buck to others.

Would this really fly for a military product? Wonder what would happen if they cut a grenade launcher too thin? Odds are someone would lose a hand and maby their life.

This is essentially mirrors my take on the situation. They are government contractors. On one hand, you can argue that this is the reason that they are producing sub-par specialty products for a niche market - they simply don't have the resources to devote. On the other hand, though, this should at least mean that they are somewhat competent, and would know better than to put out a questionable design, and a final product that fails, and then repeat the same process a few years later. Sure, lowest bidder, and all that, but at the very least, one would imagine that they would look objectively at the fiasco that was the MM2K9 project, and the say to themselves "if we are going to get involved with something like this again, we had better make sure that we get it right the first time."

I was one of the pre-orders for the MM2K9. At the time, I wasn't really concerned about timeliness, as I was busy with too many other things to be actively concerned. To be honest, I haven't even assembled the thing, although I am not sure I will even bother at this point. Looking back, the whole thing was just handled badly, and too much blame placed on the customer. After all of the runaround, and shipping of essentially incomplete products, I think PTP's commitments were not completely fulfilled. Sure, they tried to rectify things with the spacers, but that created new problems for some.

"Oh, but PTP didn't design or mill it! It isn't their fault!" Again, they knew, or should have known what they were getting into. I have worked with people who do custom fabrications, prototyping, and multi-source projects. It's really almost a priori that, if you are going to attach your name to the end product, that you make sure that all of your ducks are in a row. You don't just accept a design willy-nilly, with no beta, QC, or prototyping prior to full-scale production, especially from someone who has caused a headache in the past. Mistakes can fall through the cracks, but if you are producing a product, in good faith, that is solely the fruit of outsourcing, you are the one who assumes responsibility. I realize that there is a certain fraternal sense in the paintball community, and a pass given to many things as a result. We are talking about a real company, with real contracts, who needs to be treated just as any other company out there. When a car company gives you a lemon, you get your money back, or go class action. You don't say "oh well, the engineer goofed, but that CEO is a good guy, so shame on me".

That being said, Forrest has, at the least, put some effort forth to try to appease customers. It may be too little, too late - at least as far as any trust or good standing goes. Let's just hope they QC a little better with their products that actually go "boom".

[need4reebs]

regardless of who is right or who is wrong, or who did this or who didnt do that...nobody forced the people who sent their money for a product that wasnt built yet....after the first ever pre-order that went bad here on AO people still paid for a slot on the next pre-order? how many pre-orders have their been that have gone wrong? more than a few, right? alot of the pre-order issues could have been stopped after the first one went bad if nobody bought a spot on the second pre-order? think about this if your so smart, and you never make a mistake, why are you pissed off about another pre-order gone bad that you lost money on when you got burned on the last pre-order??

im not saying you to anybody in particular, but if you got burned on more than one pre-order then if something goes wrong you should get partial blame, cause once again nobody forced you to be the #1 slot on the next pre-order?

why not cut PTP some slack, they made a mistake on 2 of the recent projects they were involved with, but from what I've seen and heard from PTP, they have tried to make it right and/or did make it right for any issues i had which werent many at all...so as a customer m happy with PTP.

thats just my 2 cents about all this stuff:headbang:

[zondo]

I think you are talking about the micromag and I'm talking about this cocker issue...

Sorry... I have a one track mind lately.

[Jebus]

This was my first pre-order from them - and will be my last - based on the photo's Tracy showed - they looked great - and was pretty excited until I received mine:


Sealed box:
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/AC2B825E-6234-4C6E-83C7-8C976C154866-4249-0000053560ACA38A_zpsccd06d8c.jpg



Open the box and this is how it was packed:
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/F8841F49-4A01-431B-BEE7-B60AF737CED6-4249-00000535543B727A_zps0b523021.jpg

I didn't remove anything covering the plastic, how you see it is how it was packed. Nothing protecting the gun.

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/B0C878EB-DDA4-4AB0-9FD2-6B30659E33AD-4249-000005354CCDFE7C_zpsb6aa9404.jpg

Gun Photo's:
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/AE729661-1D37-4E7E-9936-AE051E59919B-4249-0000053546225961_zps5f9b6085.jpg

Multiple scratches on the gun, rub marks, and other awesome stuff:

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/3B2AFD7A-56BA-4049-A2B0-01ECFEBD9E82-4249-000005353D217402_zps6aa47dd6.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/A96793A1-9DA2-4D66-8BB4-E21DE7C4E2EA-4249-0000053536C9568C_zpsc55e902e.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/E5AA3950-0B72-4057-849A-69B8D36902FD-4249-00000535306C090A_zps85eb8c99.jpg

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/222962A8-85DA-43D4-ADB6-1F3B755BD986-4249-000005351D2AD187_zps027275fe.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/318B75EC-5BAA-4664-853E-1448FAB750B0-4249-0000053513FC5F55_zps063b1abb.jpg


Even the barrel is scratched up....awesome!
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb334/ShortBusCult/99DE912D-FEDE-45B5-9F15-FF783FEDF322-4249-0000053507C12DC6_zps37e826b9.jpg

[blackdeath1k]

That's some piss pore packing right there.

[Ando]

Paypal dispute. Send it back and eat the shipping cost.

They didn't even attempt to remove the machine marks. Could have done a once over with the bead blaster to at least cover over most of it.

And for you all that are talking about them doing things for the military.

Murphy's Laws of Combat Operations...your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.

I'd hate to see their work for the military.

[OPBN]

It's been mentioned a couple of times about putting the blame partially on the machinist. Correct me if I'm wronge, but I thought PTP actually did the milling as well? They had a shop down in Longwood Florida.

[zondo]

Wow. All those scratches... and is it me or is the Armson jewel not even on straight?

[Jebus]

Nope, not you. That isn't even on straight lol. Opened a claim - good thing, 45 days expire tomorrow hehe.

Thanks!

[rschoi_75]

im not saying you to anybody in particular, but if you got burned on more than one pre-order then if something goes wrong you should get partial blame, cause once again nobody forced you to be the #1 slot on the next pre-order?

why not cut PTP some slack, they made a mistake on 2 of the recent projects they were involved with, but from what I've seen and heard from PTP, they have tried to make it right and/or did make it right for any issues i had which werent many at all...so as a customer m happy with PTP.



I'm not sure who you're talking too either, but I don't think any buyer should bear even partial blame for something like this. I wasn't on the MM09 pre-order. This is a first for me too.

To me, a "pre-order" does not mean that a buyer should bear any risk or blame. We pay for a predefined product/service just like any other retail transaction. This is not a joint venture where we share risk (and potential profits). This is a retail purchase, and as such the seller is to be held liable for any problems associated with said product/service. I think it's ridiculous to blame the customer on this one.

Also, this whole problem could have been avoided if they had a simple QC process. Honestly, this was an amateurish move; easily caught by anyone who takes pride in their work.

[need4reebs]

I'm not sure who you're talking too either, but I don't think any buyer should bear even partial blame for something like this. I wasn't on the MM09 pre-order. This is a first for me too.

To me, a "pre-order" does not mean that a buyer should bear any risk or blame. We pay for a predefined product/service just like any other retail transaction. This is not a joint venture where we share risk (and potential profits). This is a retail purchase, and as such the seller is to be held liable for any problems associated with said product/service. I think it's ridiculous to blame the customer on this one.

Also, this whole problem could have been avoided if they had a simple QC process. Honestly, this was an amateurish move; easily caught by anyone who takes pride in their work.



im not talking to anyone specific. the original post was "Some People Never Learn"....so i guess i would be talking to those people that didnt learn...haha?

not saying the buyer should get any blame for any issues with the product, im just saying if you got burned once on a pre-order its your fault if you put your self in a position to get burned again? i know it sucks waiting around for parts or markers, but if the product hasnt been made yet or been tested or have any reviews, there is no way i would send 400-500 bucks just so i could be one of the first people to have one? i would have a hard time sending any amount of money to someone for a product that isnt made yet after all the pre-orders ive seen where someone got burned!!!

thats what i meant about the buyer being partially at fault or to blame? hope that makes better sense?

[OPBN]

not saying the buyer should get any blame for any issues with the product, im just saying if you got burned once on a pre-order its your fault if you put your self in a position to get burned again? i know it sucks waiting around for parts or markers, but if the product hasnt been made yet or been tested or have any reviews, there is no way i would send 400-500 bucks just so i could be one of the first people to have one? i would have a hard time sending any amount of money to someone for a product that isnt made yet after all the pre-orders ive seen where someone got burned!!!

Have to somewhat agree with this. After the multiple fubar preorders that have occurred here, I am not sure how anyone in their right mind would do a preorder. To cut some of the Cocker guys some slack though, maybe hey have had better luck with preorders than we have here.

I lucked out on the MM2K9 preorder as I came in late, bought someone's spot and got my body etc in about 2 months. And it worked!

[blackdeath1k]

Have to somewhat agree with this. After the multiple fubar preorders that have occurred here, I am not sure how anyone in their right mind would do a preorder. To cut some of the Cocker guys some slack though, maybe hey have had better luck with preorders than we have here.


I've had great luck with the few pre orders that I have done. They were not with a company that has had a few big flubbed pre orders in recent past though. I bet a lot of the guys didn't know about the mag issue. For the most part though I wait for the product to be really tested before purchasing.

[need4reebs]

Have to somewhat agree with this. After the multiple fubar preorders that have occurred here, I am not sure how anyone in their right mind would do a preorder. To cut some of the Cocker guys some slack though, maybe hey have had better luck with preorders than we have here.

I lucked out on the MM2K9 preorder as I came in late, bought someone's spot and got my body etc in about 2 months. And it worked!

yeah man i lucked out with my MM2K9 as well...in fact it was the first nice mag i ever bought and i didnt have a clue any of the back round of the markers, ii just knew it looked great as well as shot great so i bought it?

a pre-order is a pre-order...whether its here or there, mag or auto cocker....so if being the #1 person to have the newest product out, means that much to someone that they send out all kinds of money for a figment of someone elses imagination, id say they are the #1 person to blame, or i should say the number #1 person they should be pissed at, for putting them self in that situation in the first place!!!

[GoatBoy]

regardless of who is right or who is wrong, or who did this or who didnt do that...nobody forced the people who sent their money for a product that wasnt built yet....after the first ever pre-order that went bad here on AO people still paid for a slot on the next pre-order? how many pre-orders have their been that have gone wrong? more than a few, right? alot of the pre-order issues could have been stopped after the first one went bad if nobody bought a spot on the second pre-order? think about this if your so smart, and you never make a mistake, why are you pissed off about another pre-order gone bad that you lost money on when you got burned on the last pre-order??

im not saying you to anybody in particular, but if you got burned on more than one pre-order then if something goes wrong you should get partial blame, cause once again nobody forced you to be the #1 slot on the next pre-order?

why not cut PTP some slack, they made a mistake on 2 of the recent projects they were involved with, but from what I've seen and heard from PTP, they have tried to make it right and/or did make it right for any issues i had which werent many at all...so as a customer m happy with PTP.

thats just my 2 cents about all this stuff:headbang:


True, lots of custom and pre-order stuff goes bad all the time. It happens, and I can understand.

But I think the backlash is directly proportional to the fanboy-ism that we have to listen to about said company.

It's kind of like with Apple -- I think people probably wouldn't hate Apple quite so much if the fanboys would just learn to shut the Hell up.

Who in their right mind would join in on another PTP preorder? Well, possibly everyone who read all the crap about how awesome they are. And believed it.

So anyways, I think it's just another 'lesson learned' for everybody.

[need4reebs]

True, lots of custom and pre-order stuff goes bad all the time. It happens, and I can understand.

But I think the backlash is directly proportional to the fanboy-ism that we have to listen to about said company.

It's kind of like with Apple -- I think people probably wouldn't hate Apple quite so much if the fanboys would just learn to shut the Hell up.

Who in their right mind would join in on another PTP preorder? Well, possibly everyone who read all the crap about how awesome they are. And believed it.

So anyways, I think it's just another 'lesson learned' for everybody.

Damn GoatBoy that was Poetry...haha

i actually agree 100% tho!!

PTP posted that the issues would be fixed, so yeah while its a bummer to have to wait...and im not a very big fan of waiting....thats the risk you take with custom work but more so pre-orders!

[Frizzle Fry]

Interesting how mature the response has been on Custom Cockers, compared to... this.

And Goatboy, "shutting up" can be a mutual thing.

[cockerpunk]

beginning to wonder if i am the only one who ever got good work out of rrfireblade .....

both of these entire problems can be summed up with simply caring enough to fix it. they saw the problem, they tried to fix it, it didn't work, they made the decision to ship anyway. that's not a lack of QC, its a lack of caring.

[OPBN]

both of these entire problems can be summed up with simply caring enough to fix it. they saw the problem, they tried to fix it, it didn't work, they made the decision to ship anyway. that's not a lack of QC, its a lack of caring.

One of the few times I agree with you. Looking at the pics of Jebus' body, holy crap! Who would have shipped something with flaws like that? I don't know that there is anything that can be said to justify it short of they hired a blind monkey to handle their QC.

[Bunny]

Jebus: Wow, that is really bad. I can't believe PTP would ship it like that to you. :(

[Jebus]

Spoke with Tracy, they are going to make me another one and swap them on their dime....a lot happier than earlier lol

[need4reebs]

Spoke with Tracy, they are going to make me another one and swap them on their dime....a lot happier than earlier lol


wasnt that what she posted in the thread that the bodies would be redone and swapped out? before all the ranting even started? they didnt really get a chance to figure out what the next move was, knowing that some customers would be upset with the bodies shipped the way they were shipped or redoing the bodies and making the customers wait??

so now your back to being a PTP customer? sorry this happened to ya but throwing a company under tha bus didnt have to happen did it? or bringing the auto cocker body drama over to the automag forum didnt have to happen did it?

what a bummer man???

[blackdeath1k]

Crap happens with first run stuff. So the issue with the gun body's is no big deal to me. From the looks of it they will be sweet when it is all finished. PTP tries to keep a happy customer. But the shipping department needs major help.

[Jebus]

wasnt that what she posted in the thread that the bodies would be redone and swapped out? before all the ranting even started? they didnt really get a chance to figure out what the next move was, knowing that some customers would be upset with the bodies shipped the way they were shipped or redoing the bodies and making the customers wait??

so now your back to being a PTP customer? sorry this happened to ya but throwing a company under tha bus didnt have to happen did it? or bringing the auto cocker body drama over to the automag forum didnt have to happen did it?

what a bummer man???

Did you not read what I posted? I stated I was fine waiting for the bodies to be swapped...UNTIL I received mine. How would you feel about getting a new body kit you paid $450 for arrive sitting in a plastic bag protecting it? I was pretty pissed like every normal person would be, how am I throwing PTP under the bus? How am I creating drama? Did I create this thread? No, I posted in it showing in photos the level of packaging.

After speaking with Tracy on phone, she let me know a few things outside her control that happened, and some of the reasons a few of the guns were shipped how mine was, After explaining everything, and working something out, yes, I am happier, isn't that how it is supposed to work? Consumer purchases a product, consumer complains, either company fixes, or doesn't fix.

I've owned quite a few PTP mags and a cocker or two, I was unaware of the machinest and prior problems, just going by the mags from them I've owned and how much I liked shooting them.

Tell me how I threw PTP under the bus, and why don't you ***** at the OP for bring the drama of an autococker to an automag forum...geez, go have a glass of milk or something.

[need4reebs]

Did you not read what I posted? I stated I was fine waiting for the bodies to be swapped...UNTIL I received mine. How would you feel about getting a new body kit you paid $450 for arrive sitting in a plastic bag protecting it? I was pretty pissed like every normal person would be, how am I throwing PTP under the bus? How am I creating drama? Did I create this thread? No, I posted in it showing in photos the level of packaging.

After speaking with Tracy on phone, she let me know a few things outside her control that happened, and some of the reasons a few of the guns were shipped how mine was, After explaining everything, and working something out, yes, I am happier, isn't that how it is supposed to work? Consumer purchases a product, consumer complains, either company fixes, or doesn't fix.

I've owned quite a few PTP mags and a cocker or two, I was unaware of the machinest and prior problems, just going by the mags from them I've owned and how much I liked shooting them.

Tell me how I threw PTP under the bus, and why don't you ***** at the OP for bring the drama of an autococker to an automag forum...geez, go have a glass of milk or something.


yeah big Dawg i read what ya posted earlier, but then it changed or was edited?

i know i wouldnt put myself in that position man...it is not something i would ever want to go thru! it does seem that people are pretty quick to get pissed and say things out of anger before thinking about what options they have to handle there problem? its hard to point out how i thought your comments threw PTP under the bus now that your post was edited, so i cant really answer that for ya?

and ill take some blame for even paying attention to this thread and replying cause obviously that caused some drama between me and you over something that will soon be fixed...but im not typing cuss words or trying to insult ya but oh well?

ill go have a glass of milk or something.

[Jebus]

yeah big Dawg i read what ya posted earlier, but then it changed or was edited?

i know i wouldnt put myself in that position man...it is not something i would ever want to go thru! it does seem that people are pretty quick to get pissed and say things out of anger before thinking about what options they have to handle there problem? its hard to point out how i thought your comments threw PTP under the bus now that your post was edited, so i cant really answer that for ya?

and ill take some blame for even paying attention to this thread and replying cause obviously that caused some drama between me and you over something that will soon be fixed...but im not typing cuss words or trying to insult ya but oh well?

ill go have a glass of milk or something.

I took out the part about seeking a refund after talking with Tracy, which they would have done but we came to a mutual agreement. The other part was that I was disappointed.

I'm not seeking a refund, and I'm not disappointed, just happy it was handled.

[need4reebs]

I took out the part about seeking a refund after talking with Tracy, which they would have done but we came to a mutual agreement. The other part was that I was disappointed.

I'm not seeking a refund, and I'm not disappointed, just happy it was handled.

me too

[Ando]

wasnt that what she posted in the thread that the bodies would be redone and swapped out? before all the ranting even started? they didnt really get a chance to figure out what the next move was, knowing that some customers would be upset with the bodies shipped the way they were shipped or redoing the bodies and making the customers wait??

so now your back to being a PTP customer? sorry this happened to ya but throwing a company under tha bus didnt have to happen did it? or bringing the auto cocker body drama over to the automag forum didnt have to happen did it?

what a bummer man???

Get a chance to figure out there next move? What would that be? Searching for the next unsuspecting forum to punch them in the fart box too. I'm sorry bro but BS like that should have NEVER EVER left their shop. The BS that happened here should have never left their shop. They should have NEVER sent out anything till they KNEW what they were shipping was in WORKING order.

They knew the problem(s), even stated it in the CC forums, instead of milling out new bodies, they tried to fix them with a damn welder which in turn screwed up the anno. Even with all the blems and still no testing what so ever, sent out markers thinking the customer just needs to suck it up.

They're hammering in the last few nails, there's only so many paintball forums in the community.

Way to fall from grace PTP.

[need4reebs]

Get a chance to figure out there next move? What would that be? Searching for the next unsuspecting forum to punch them in the fart box too. I'm sorry bro but BS like that should have NEVER EVER left their shop. The BS that happened here should have never left their shop. They should have NEVER sent out anything till they KNEW what they were shipping was in WORKING order.

They knew the problem(s), even stated it in the CC forums, instead of milling out new bodies, they tried to fix them with a damn welder which in turn screwed up the anno. Even with all the blems and still no testing what so ever, sent out markers thinking the customer just needs to suck it up.

They're hammering in the last few nails, there's only so many paintball forums in the community.

Way to fall from grace PTP.

hey i understand all that, but neither should anymore pre-orders, but all the forums allowed after more than a few pre-orders gone south...does that mean the forums are hammering the last few nails as well?

not sure what any of the reasoning was or is, but one thing i think might be true tho is that if there was no pre-order then that would have most likely eliminated the problem from tha start? i think?

i feel like a idiot for even responding, but it sucks hearing a bunch of negative BS....this is supposed to be an excape from everyday BS...but it dont really seem like that lately? Ando you know me man i would rather try and help people out than argue man, but if i have to argue im pretty good at that to...haha...i would rather not tho!

[Ando]

Pre-orders are a must for niche communities, no way around it.

[need4reebs]

Pre-orders are a must for niche communities, no way around it.


ok

[rschoi_75]

hey i understand all that, but neither should anymore pre-orders, but all the forums allowed after more than a few pre-orders gone south...does that mean the forums are hammering the last few nails as well?

not sure what any of the reasoning was or is, but one thing i think might be true tho is that if there was no pre-order then that would have most likely eliminated the problem from tha start? i think?

i feel like a idiot for even responding, but it sucks hearing a bunch of negative BS....this is supposed to be an excape from everyday BS...but it dont really seem like that lately? Ando you know me man i would rather try and help people out than argue man, but if i have to argue im pretty good at that to...haha...i would rather not tho!

I apologize for the tone of my post, but I feel your logic is flawed. There is no correlation between eliminating pre-orders and improved quality control. A forum does not control the QC process of a 3rd party company. There have been many successful pre-orders before this. Like everyone has been saying, it's all about how much a company actually cares. The argument that "pre-orders" cause a lack of quality control does not hold water.

As for the negativity... you could always move on to the next (happier) thread. There have been negative threads on forums for as long as forums have existed. I think the negativity you personally feel is artificially manufactured, since you don't really have a financial stake in this matter.

[GoatBoy]

I apologize for the tone of my post, but I feel your logic is flawed. There is no correlation between eliminating pre-orders and improved quality control. A forum does not control the QC process of a 3rd party company. There have been many successful pre-orders before this. Like everyone has been saying, it's all about how much a company actually cares. The argument that "pre-orders" cause a lack of quality control does not hold water.


I think there is a slight difference between, "We ain't gettin' paid 'till we deliver" and "Yo! They paid us already! We got teh money!!! :dance:"

Sure, company attitude matters, but I guess I'm the kind of guy that kind of likes to, you know, go ahead and hang onto my money.

[need4reebs]

I apologize for the tone of my post, but I feel your logic is flawed. There is no correlation between eliminating pre-orders and improved quality control. A forum does not control the QC process of a 3rd party company. There have been many successful pre-orders before this. Like everyone has been saying, it's all about how much a company actually cares. The argument that "pre-orders" cause a lack of quality control does not hold water.

As for the negativity... you could always move on to the next (happier) thread. There have been negative threads on forums for as long as forums have existed. I think the negativity you personally feel is artificially manufactured, since you don't really have a financial stake in this matter.

well whether or not there is a correlation between eliminating pre-orders and improving quality control wasnt what i was referring to?

i didnt think i needed a financial stake in this matter to voice my opinion about pre-orders going bad? a thread that has a title "Some People Never Learn" that has people getting burned on pre-orders made me think that maybe if there were no pre-orders nobody would be getting burned?

[RehKal]

Well, everything fits in to my MM 2k9 ok. Waiting on the steel washer for the spring to arrive in the mail and then I'll be able to test it at least. The grip/valve are borrowed from my kartamag so I'll have to find a nice grip and valve for it at some point.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Sphmve6lSos/UUPZpK2RjDI/AAAAAAAACu0/dyAN-dSk1iM/s640/DSC03993.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HXlp3TXZlm4/UUPZqibKcDI/AAAAAAAACu8/uDyE-vT24TU/s640/DSC03994.JPG

[Drix]

Well, everything fits in to my MM 2k9 ok. Waiting on the steel washer for the spring to arrive in the mail and then I'll be able to test it at least. The grip/valve are borrowed from my kartamag so I'll have to find a nice grip and valve for it at some point.



Oh god, did you not read the paper in the box? I'd be really, really worried about assembling my un-anodized marker. I'm not sure if you noticed but the threads are really, really tight, it's because the anno smoothes out the surface a bit and hardens the surface to act like a fine polishing job, I'd be leery of putting any screws in that might lead to some stripping. In a related note, I'd worry about playing with the gun as any oil or dirt accumulation could have an impact on the annoing process later.

[RehKal]

Paper in the box? Uhm. No box, no paper. The threads were fine, no problems or tightness when putting in any screws either. I certainly don't intend to go out and play a game with it but I'm wanting to make sure everything is ok before I send it off for anno.... that and I need to collect the parts I need. Besides all that, I'm quite familiar with working on such things... I work on stuff similar to it all the time. My only real question is... how I should get it annoed. Might just send caustic customs and say "surprise me".....

[WUNDERWAFFEN]

Wow!!!

All the believers that think Tracy & PTP will correct this are delusional.

The wait will be long & the communication will just stop after they left everyone hanging.

All you have to do is read the last dozen pages of the MM2K9 thread to see how that company responded to us.

Had I known they were doing this I would of jumped in that thread, warned them & say hello to Tracy before she jumped ship AGAIN!

[Frizzle Fry]

Wow!!!

All the believers that think Tracy & PTP will correct this are delusional.

The wait will be long & the communication will just stop after they left everyone hanging.

All you have to do is read the last dozen pages of the MM2K9 thread to see how that company responded to us.

Had I known they were doing this I would of jumped in that thread, warned them & say hello to Tracy before she jumped ship AGAIN!

Tracy stopped responding after she received a phone call on her birthday from a user here who called here some very obscene things. Anybody who has played with me knows I have a foul mouth, and even I wouldn't say the kinds of things that this person did when he spoke with her. That's when and why she took a vacation from AO, it was clearly not the right response, but that was why.

I firmly believe that this will be taken care of as promised. I believe this to be the case for several reasons; for starters, the calm approach and level of maturity that Custom Cockers members have displayed in their thread so far, but also because these markers weren't machined from scratch - they're WGP bodies and there are more blanks where these came from, and adjusting the program to get them cut right will be easier than trying to troubleshoot a crowdsourced design built from scratch.

[WUNDERWAFFEN]

I am calling BS on that.

& what buisness would bail on all of its customers after a negative experience with one of them? & keep the extra $$$ it should've refunded.

& the icing on the cake is the grip panels... How can you put those on & not see what they did. Oh right who cares ship them.

They knew they were sending out junk. I am not familar with what exactly they did but to me it looks like after they originally machined the bodies they welded them & machined them again & then finished them.

I hope the customers start their paypal claims right away instead of waiting on PTP.

Have they used the military contract excuse yet?

& how did they actually crank this out in 3 months when ours took 3 years?

[Frizzle Fry]

& how did they actually crank this out in 3 months when ours took 3 years?

Ours did not take 3 years.

Also, as I said before, these were milled from WGP blanks rather than from scratch. That's why they were done more quickly.

Grow up; people on CC have already received replacement grips and o-rings, including myself. The order for replacement bodies body blanks have already been placed. This will be taken care of as long as people like yourself who have no business getting involved don't show up and blow it for everyone.

[wetwrks]

This will be taken care of as long as people like yourself who have no business getting involved don't show up and blow it for everyone.

I hope you are right. There are still people owed from the mm run that have not been taken care of.












I doubt you are right.

[going_home]

I hope you are right. There are still people owed from the mm run that have not been taken care of.
I doubt you are right.

If Forest was ever going to fulfill his promises regarding the Micromag 2009, he would have done so by now.

A vulgar phone call from one idiot is their reasoning for walking away from their obligations.

They were once, dare I say, held in as high regard by this community as Mr. Kaye is still today.

No more.


Forgiveness is easy, forgetting is not.


:(

[wetwrks]

If Forest was ever going to fulfill his promises regarding the Micromag 2009, he would have done so by now.

I doubt they ever will. Frankly I think they have written off their commitments. They got their $ and couldn't care about the customer. Milking the industry for all they can before they walk away.

I looked at their preorder for the sniper bodies and thought "mmm I might be interested" then I remembered how the micromags went and thought "nope, not interested".

[Frizzle Fry]

They got their $ and couldn't care about the customer. Milking the industry for all they can before they walk away.

If they had made a single dollar on the MM2K9, that might be the case. Had it gone ideally the project would have been barely profitable. As is, it might be a wash if the remaining bodies sell and all of those actually work for the end user.

[going_home]

Up to page 31 now.

New problems with the newer bodies.

Banjo bolts not fitting ?

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?44242-URGENT!-FX-Cocker-Pump-Body-Kit/page30

You have to feel bad for the customers.

[Frizzle Fry]

Banjos fit fine on the other ones.