any chance of new mags from AGD anytime?

[dodge3500]

With empire doing the sniper and now the autococker plus lapco bringing out twisters again,what are the chances of AGD and a new mag?i love mechanicals especially automags and would love to see AGD cranking out some new stuff too.:)

[OPBN]

Chances are quite low.

What sort of changes are you wanting?

[RT Lover]

twister?

[El Zilcho]

Do they even have a design department?

[skipdogg]

0.00% chance

[KurtPB]

Chances are quite low.

What sort of changes are you wanting?

These days if someone ordered from the factory a foregrip on the rail, clamping feedneck and if not an on/off asa than a decent standard one. Also, this is 2013, the days of sight rails and whatnot are gone, have factory hole-less rails and get rid of the extra.

[Arstron]

Chances are quite low.

What sort of changes are you wanting?

A first strike round capable, magazine fed, zgrip that can shoot freakin laser beams.:dance:

[OPBN]

These days if someone ordered from the factory a foregrip on the rail, clamping feedneck and if not an on/off asa than a decent standard one. Also, this is 2013, the days of sight rails and whatnot are gone, have factory hole-less rails and get rid of the extra.

Foregrips do come directly on the rails these days. They do not utilize clamping feednecks because they realize this is a personal preference thing that a lot of people swap out regardless. It just raises the price. Same with on/off ASAs. Current models also do not come with site rails and the rails are in fact holeless excepting for the one for the sear axle.

So I guess they already produce your dream Mag other than wanting feedneck and ASA options?

This is what a current RT Pro come from the factory looking like*:

87599

* I have heard that they no longer offer the bike style grip, but instead use a foam grip. And I think the grips are different possibly as well.

[KurtPB]

Foregrips do come directly on the rails these days. They do not utilize clamping feednecks because they realize this is a personal preference thing that a lot of people swap out regardless. It just raises the price. Same with on/off ASAs. Current models also do not come with site rails and the rails are in fact holeless excepting for the one for the sear axle.

So I guess they already produce your dream Mag other than wanting feedneck and ASA options?

This is what a current RT Pro come from the factory looking like*:

87599

* I have heard that they no longer offer the bike style grip, but instead use a foam grip. And I think the grips are different possibly as well.

Guess I haven't looked at AGD's website in years for anything I want but not my dream mag by any means, no. Just stating what people expect from a marker in that price range these days.

[dodge3500]

Bring out different milled rails and body's with updated feed necks and detents.bring back y frames and matching annoed x-valves,they don't have to create a totally new marker but rather update a few things.there is a large crowd of younger folks that don't even know what a automag is.(make what is old new again)I guess I'm just being too hopeful. :-) :-)

[Bunny]

There is really no reason for AGD to make anymore mags. I think it actually has helped the marketplace for used mags to be completely stable compared to other manufacturers out there.

Btw, we have a few really talented people working on new parts for Automags to this day. Sure its not AGD, but some of the parts are just as good.

:D

[OPBN]

Bring out different milled rails and body's with updated feed necks and detents.bring back y frames and matching annoed x-valves,they don't have to create a totally new marker but rather update a few things.there is a large crowd of younger folks that don't even know what a automag is.(make what is old new again)I guess I'm just being too hopeful. :-) :-)

IIRC, it took them YEARS to finally get rid of the Y frames because they sold so poorly. There are several companies offering bodies, rails and frames already which is something that is usually handled by the aftermarket. Do Dye or Kee offer body kits or custom frames for their markers?

One area that I would strongly agree that updates could be done is in regards to colors. But then you get into what colors sell, which don't? And if you start anodizing the valves, you have to have matching bodies and what happens if people start ordering clown markers with red valves, purple bodies and green frames? So I get that aspect of it because if you make everything black, it all matches. And lets be honest, Mag are probably used more so in woodsball games than tourney, so black is probably a better choice for most.

My .02

[KurtPB]

CCM seem to do a pretty good job with their special colors. :) This is a topic that has been beat to death, revived, and then beat to death again and again. All I have to say is that those updates are what newer buyers expect a gun at that price to have these days. I don't even expect AGD to ever get back to where they were when they had their name on the airball bunkers and whatnot, that ship has sailed. I'd just like to see them operate at a level like CCM where they do some updating along the way, offer the options(colors and parts, even if they have to be ordered and paid for before-hand) and reach out to the community.

Not to mention, true CCM markers have great resale.

[OPBN]

I totally agree that I would love to see some custom anodizing combos available, but I can also understand the flip side of the coin from a practical business standpoint as well. With most of the colored valves probably starting to show their age, I would love to see a run of Red, Blue, Purple and maybe some Green done as well. Ooo maybe Orange. I think offering these colors and maybe making it public knowledge of who can match the ano colors or giving the dye color number(not sure if this is how it works) so that people could do their own color matching would be awesome. Don't see it happening, but it would be pretty sweet.


Not to mention, true CCM markers have great resale. So do Mags....

[KurtPB]

I don't know too much about anodizing but I always thought matching a batch of parts had partly to do with who was actually anodizing the work?

And yeah, I know 'mags hold their value. Not sure if you understood what I was getting at. That they're still able to be relevant on the market, produce new products and yet their older stuff still holds a premium price.

[cockerpunk]

1/infinity

[Spider-TW]

1/infinity

So there's quantifiable hope? :p

[blackdeath1k]

Idk bout all new guns. But back in 95 I said I would replace my gun when I felt I was out matched. In 2000 I got a automagrt to take the place of my original mag as my main gun. Its now 2013 and I'm still using said rt. And my wife loved the minimag I got her. So I will stick with agd till I can no longer get parts for it. That being said. If my wife plays a decent amount I may have to order her one like that picture above. That all black is sexy. And light.

[Mobius V]

/\ My thoughts exactly, I have a pair of emags and a RT Pro that pretty much take care of business and have been since 2000 :headbang:

[blackdeath1k]

So I think agd made one giant business mistake back in the late 80s. They designed something that needs minimal upkeep. And very little in the way of improvement. Hard to make a continued major profit when something you created 20 years ago still holds its own.......quite possibly with pretty much all factory Orings.



And the twist lock barrel is still one of my favorite features. The loss of that is one reason I don't want an al body for my rt.

[Nobody]

let see...

made a gun that was the fastest, till electros came about.

made something reliable that all you have to do is throw some oil at it once a year.

made something that doesn't chop, and doesn't need eyes.

made something even faster than anything else.

was the basis for a pneumatic mod, so that you can have a walkable mech.

the question isn't does the world need anything new from AGD, its what could possibly be an improvement on what we already have?

[dodge3500]

Are we so old or set in our ways that we don't want a younger generation packing shiny new automags instead of some 1200 electro? I think AGD could change a few curves add a little color,keep the rock solid drive train and interchangeable parts and sell some mags to the older/younger folks np.I think it would be wonderful to see a new mag on the shelves.I totally understand we have some great folks still making great stuff for our current mags and we wanna keep our values on our mags up.I think AGD could do something in a way that its a win/win for everybody.:-) lol but I'm a day dreamer and a optimistic hopeful.:clap:

[GoatBoy]

I feel like I've made this statement to deaf ears probably at least three times now, but the mag is a bit overengineered in some areas, and the price reflects it.

I think there are ways to make a reduced cost mag which is still perfectly functional and compatible. Forget all the stupid failed aesthetic stuff that just adds cost. Just make it a little more affordable.

Perhaps the best thing for the automag now is to just leave AGD's hands.

[Nobody]

I feel like I've made this statement to deaf ears probably at least three times now, but the mag is a bit overengineered in some areas, and the price reflects it.

I think there are ways to make a reduced cost mag which is still perfectly functional and compatible. Forget all the stupid failed aesthetic stuff that just adds cost. Just make it a little more affordable.

Perhaps the best thing for the automag now is to just leave AGD's hands.

it has. the Mini and Axe are cousins and use the same principles(Simon Stevens directly talked to Tom Kaye about using the system/principle for Empire) and Tippmann with the TiPX and X7 Phenom are direct extensions of the mag(as Tippmann talked directly with TK about using/borrowing the system).

so its not that mags are antiquated or need to be removed from AGD's hands, its just that there is no money for advertising or sponsoring a team(s) to show that the Mag is still viable as a mech or a fast gun. but when you compare it to cheap electros, where you don't have to put on pneumatics on it to make it faster, or electronics to keep in reigned in for PSP or NPPL RoF limits.

the SP lawsuit killed the Emag and there isn't a need to pursue it again. the Mag is at an interesting point where it isn't cheap, but it isn't expensive. there isn't enough want or need for a rebirth of the electronics(on AGD's end) no matter if people need to replace old broken boards. the higher levels aren't wanting the Mag, regardless the capability to keep up with the most modern guns.

so, the mag is a great idea and a fine gun, but it has peaked at a point that its not totally dead, but will take a huge effort(one that won't be made by TK) to put it back on top like it was during the mid 90's.

[GoatBoy]

it has. the Mini and Axe are cousins and use the same principles(Simon Stevens directly talked to Tom Kaye about using the system/principle for Empire) and Tippmann with the TiPX and X7 Phenom are direct extensions of the mag(as Tippmann talked directly with TK about using/borrowing the system).

so its not that mags are antiquated or need to be removed from AGD's hands, its just that there is no money for advertising or sponsoring a team(s) to show that the Mag is still viable as a mech or a fast gun. but when you compare it to cheap electros, where you don't have to put on pneumatics on it to make it faster, or electronics to keep in reigned in for PSP or NPPL RoF limits.

the SP lawsuit killed the Emag and there isn't a need to pursue it again. the Mag is at an interesting point where it isn't cheap, but it isn't expensive. there isn't enough want or need for a rebirth of the electronics(on AGD's end) no matter if people need to replace old broken boards. the higher levels aren't wanting the Mag, regardless the capability to keep up with the most modern guns.

so, the mag is a great idea and a fine gun, but it has peaked at a point that its not totally dead, but will take a huge effort(one that won't be made by TK) to put it back on top like it was during the mid 90's.

I think your entire line of thought comes straight from the 90's. It's the "the entire industry kowtows to the tournament scene" line of thought.

The Mini and Axe are both simultaneously good and bad examples. (TiPX is maybe a decent example.)

They're a good example of what happens when you try.

They're a bad example for what I'm talking about.

You're right -- "higher levels" aren't wanting the mag. By "higher levels" you're referring to tournament ball. (And what does a TiPX have to do with electros and tournaments anyways?)

But it's recball that pays the bills for this industry.

And it doesn't care about what sponsored teams are toting or whatever. Every weekend I play with people who don't give two Tippmanns about any of that. The majority of them. They do wonder about this strange gun I keep eliminating them with though.

And I think the nature of the world is such that no single entity needs to take on such a project alone now. And that include the specious "advertising" task.

[OPBN]

I think there are ways to make a reduced cost mag which is still perfectly functional and compatible. Forget all the stupid failed aesthetic stuff that just adds cost. Just make it a little more affordable.

What failed aesthetic stuff? Besides the milling on the rail, which I like, the Mag is pretty Plain Jane if you ask me. How would you make it more affordable besides farming out the machining to China so they can come back huge leaking pieces of crap? This sounds like the typical Wally World mentality that cheaper is always better.

[Nobody]

I think your entire line of thought comes straight from the 90's. It's the "the entire industry kowtows to the tournament scene" line of thought.

The Mini and Axe are both simultaneously good and bad examples. (TiPX is maybe a decent example.)

They're a good example of what happens when you try.

They're a bad example for what I'm talking about.

You're right -- "higher levels" aren't wanting the mag. By "higher levels" you're referring to tournament ball. (And what does a TiPX have to do with electros and tournaments anyways?)

But it's recball that pays the bills for this industry.

And it doesn't care about what sponsored teams are toting or whatever. Every weekend I play with people who don't give two Tippmanns about any of that. The majority of them. They do wonder about this strange gun I keep eliminating them with though.

And I think the nature of the world is such that no single entity needs to take on such a project alone now. And that include the specious "advertising" task.

well, i started playing in 97, on the scene till 2005ish and back again 3 years ago. so my views might be dated, but their are mine.

Tippmann pistol, it might not be great in your eyes, but its that or the Tiberious for a mag-fed semi pistol. not a bad place, kinda like the 90's where you had the Mags vs. the cockers.

well, there are some sponsored woodsball teams, but they don't get what little press is about for anything that they did. yet, you do hear when XSV are shooting Axes, or Impact are going to be shooting Vanquishes or Impulses for the new season. i didn't say that its the top tier but even you who aren't considering it, still call it that. but its those teams that you hear about on what they are shooting. you don't hear about any other team. which goes in to what i said about...

sponsorships: AGD doesn't advertise anymore. they don't sponsor any teams(that i know about, could be wrong) so there is no word anywhere about how great the guns are in the woods. so if recball/woodsball pays the bills where is the word on that? where are the people shooting them for the season? again, it goes to lack of money towards the advertising aspect, and no advertising anywhere.

even by your own words, they wonder about your gun, but they haven't done anything about it. we all have people come up to us wondering if our mags are ions or something else. why is that? cause people her about those other guns, and not mags.

you can have the best product in the world, but if no one knows about it, it doesn't matter how much you want to wish things to change. they won't.

[OPBN]

Just had a really odd thought, but has anyone ever thought about getting AO "business cards" printed up? They are dirt cheap these days and you could carry a handful around with you when playing. If someone comes up and asks you about your marker, you could talk to them briefly and hand them a snazzy card with the AO address on it. People have bad memories sometimes and simply telling them the info can be really overwhelming. Handing them a card with some pics of nice Mags and the AO web address might get them to stop by and get hooked.

Just a thought. Stupid one maybe, but a thought.

[skipdogg]

Just had a really odd thought, but has anyone ever thought about getting AO "business cards" printed up? They are dirt cheap these days and you could carry a handful around with you when playing. If someone comes up and asks you about your marker, you could talk to them briefly and hand them a snazzy card with the AO address on it. People have bad memories sometimes and simply telling them the info can be really overwhelming. Handing them a card with some pics of nice Mags and the AO web address might get them to stop by and get hooked.

Just a thought. Stupid one maybe, but a thought.


Is a good idea

[Arstron]

Just had a really odd thought, but has anyone ever thought about getting AO "business cards" printed up? They are dirt cheap these days and you could carry a handful around with you when playing. If someone comes up and asks you about your marker, you could talk to them briefly and hand them a snazzy card with the AO address on it. People have bad memories sometimes and simply telling them the info can be really overwhelming. Handing them a card with some pics of nice Mags and the AO web address might get them to stop by and get hooked.

Just a thought. Stupid one maybe, but a thought.

I would go one step further and add a few agd dealers/custom shops address on there as well. Perhaps with some MOTM winners on the back.

[OPBN]

I would go one step further and add a few agd dealers/custom shops address on there as well. Perhaps with some MOTM winners on the back.

Not sure what two sided full color business cards run these days, but I guess if some of the dealers wanted to help cover the costs of such a thing, sure. Business cards are pretty small, for some of us older guys, putting more than one picture on the card would require me to pull out a magnifying glass. I was thinking something pretty simple with the AO logo and web ddress. Maybe a grayscale pic of an RTPro or TAC 1. Depending on the cost of color, maybe a pic of something more interesting.

[skipdogg]

Not sure what two sided full color business cards run these days, but I guess if some of the dealers wanted to help cover the costs of such a thing, sure. Business cards are pretty small, for some of us older guys, putting more than one picture on the card would require me to pull out a magnifying glass. I was thinking something pretty simple with the AO logo and web ddress. Maybe a grayscale pic of an RTPro or TAC 1. Depending on the cost of color, maybe a pic of something more interesting.

Agree.

[Patron God of Pirates]

You can get 250 full color cards w/gloss for $10 from Vistaprint
http://www.vistaprint.com

[blackdeath1k]

Now that is a good idea. No better marketing than the player that keeps wasting you with a mechanical gun that has no real maintenance.

[RT Lover]

this is what i think

AGD could still b in the game, we all know TK is the man, and legend! isnt that y we r all here? his product, some being 10+ years is still going, still has a strong market. If he would had jumped in the custom side... just offering some other options like bodies, frame( XMT and Luke) he would have cash rolling in. im not saying do everything that XMT and luke do but they are examples of what is out there. TK provided a platform and it grew from there and we all love to customize our mags. heck different color markers, shirts jerseys. u dont need to re amp a marker every year and make it that much cooler. if it was pushed and sponsor some teams, and get that name out there show all the new blood what is out there the name would be known and a younger player wouldnt call mt Rt a spyder( lol he tried)! everybody has there take and options where he could still b in the game. not everything has to be done by a company but he could give it some more power if it was pushed. On the other side i feel he thinks he did what he needed to do, lay it out, provide it and let it grow. a automag was my second marker, i didnt want it at first it was 600$ but my local field he said there is nothing like this rt, it is a beast and u will love it. he gassed it up and i shot it and i still have it. and i understand all this preorder crap and it sucks to try and b the middle man and have your other side fail and bring you down. it is a risk and and most stay away from it. I have always thought Tuna or luke would buy it up and keep it going. but hey we have great providers who stepped in and gave us options others dont have and its all good with that said i would buy i if he made it.

[swamphawk7]

How about a factory fresh pump mag,eh???

:D


(Yes,I know it won't happen)

[OPBN]

If he would had jumped in the custom side... just offering some other options like bodies, frame( XMT and Luke) .

As in interesting aside, when I was asking once about Dallara numbers etc. it was mentioned that one of the reasons that the Dallara bodies were soooo freaking expensive was due to the cost of the factory body slugs. From what I got out of the conversation, rather than offering the slugs at a decent price, they were sold at a premium that made it difficult for anyone to buy a bunch of them and make reasonably priced custom bodies. In a way it sounds like custom bodies were somewhat discouraged rather than encouraged.

Correct me if I undersood it incorrectly.

And it is still my opinion that aftermarket bodies should be exactly that, aftermarket. Focus on what you do and do it well rather than venturing off into custom work.

[GoatBoy]

I'm going to try to keep this short.



even by your own words, they wonder about your gun, but they haven't done anything about it. we all have people come up to us wondering if our mags are ions or something else. why is that? cause people her about those other guns, and not mags.

This is where the pain starts setting in. People ask about my mag, and if they want one like mine, I just have to tell them... they can't.

They can't go buy a new classic mag, and certainly not one in my configuration. You want a new mag, you have to go buy the RTPro, which quite frankly is priced-to-fail.



you can have the best product in the world, but if no one knows about it, it doesn't matter how much you want to wish things to change. they won't.

The product A) Not being available at all, and/or B) Only available in a form that is completely uncompetitive, is a bigger problem than advertising. Many orders of magnitude bigger. You can give a monkey a jersey and pay him in bananas to do your advertising. The design and manufacturing ... not so much.

[dodge3500]

If someone puts the business cards together, I'll buy in on it to give out to folks that say (what's that your shooting):-) :-) just let me know

[OPBN]

If someone puts the business cards together, I'll buy in on it to give out to folks that say (what's that your shooting):-) :-) just let me know
I suck at design etc, so its not something that I will undertake, but would be willing to pay for postage or whatever to take 10-15 of them to keep on me when I play.

[Patron God of Pirates]

There are so many companies holding so many different (often sketchy) patents it's hard for any company to make anything other than a cookie cutter spooly. Forgive me if my facts are wrong or out of date but just some I can think of:

WDP: Frames forward of 86 degrees
PTP: Pnuematic assisted triggers
Smart Parts: Triggers(?anything that activates the firing of a paintball)
AGD: on/off

I'm not clear on the details of any of that but IIRC that is the basic reason why we rely mostly on small runs of custom made stuff.

Other than that for Mags to make a comeback we would need to see a shift away from batteries and circuit boards. In an unlimited BPS mech semi-only format Mags would own. It would take some high profile marketing. Reaching out to stores, fields, and players. An all mech/mag team winning a major event would be nice. The trick is in creating mechanical=skillful / batteries=entry level association.

For some reason that has always been the way I thought. I got rid of both of my e-mags for that reason. I would love to see a high capacity pneumatic loader. I digress.

The Mag I'd like to see back in the stores is an entry level mag with an X-Valve and cheep-o everything else. Then posters with a bunch of Mags from the MOTM winners thread. Put some printed materials in the box with lots of pictures of what a Mag can be.

[RT Lover]

As in interesting aside, when I was asking once about Dallara numbers etc. it was mentioned that one of the reasons that the Dallara bodies were soooo freaking expensive was due to the cost of the factory body slugs. From what I got out of the conversation, rather than offering the slugs at a decent price, they were sold at a premium that made it difficult for anyone to buy a bunch of them and make reasonably priced custom bodies. In a way it sounds like custom bodies were somewhat discouraged rather than encouraged.

Correct me if I undersood it incorrectly.

And it is still my opinion that aftermarket bodies should be exactly that, aftermarket. Focus on what you do and do it well rather than venturing off into custom work.


What Dave z told me is that they had the slugs made from pouring hot metal in a form or what ever. he said something like if they did a big run like 200-300 they could do it. we r talking a good 7 years though. but they did the ule and tack 1 bodies. i guess as long as they advertise or something they would c more $. I have wanted to make a slug square instead of round... more meat but dont tell XMT or luke she is pissed about the new parts lol

i dont think there is a after market body that sucks.... outside of ptp, thats just me

[AGDRetro]

The Mag could greatly benefit from a reboot. The X-Valve base is just fine, but the parts around it could use an update. Some of these parts people will say aren't worth including or updating because the Mag toters will just replace them, but the question I ask is - "with what?". Your options for "upgraded" or replacement parts is not getting any bigger. The task for AGD would be to make the parts much like the valves in their guns - not worth replacing! Make a lever clamping feedneck that is low profile, STURDY (but not chunky) and easily adjustable. It is not like the market is flooded with tons of new, worthwhile Angel feednecks. You make this one part right and nobody would want to replace it! How about a new rail with the vertical ASA integrated. I don't mean held on there by a screw, but actually a part of the rail!

I would dump a huge chunk of change on AGD if they'd revisit the Classic RT with a couple twists. Give it a body that resembled the X-Mag, run the air thru the rail and update the valve to accept the ULE trigger. Update the trigger frame by enlarging the trigger guard area and give it an integrated rail for the on/off ASA. And for the love of God please license one of RPG's triggers!

As for marketing, I'm not sure how much the "pro" teams are worth, or even magazines like APG or sites like PBN. AO's members and word of mouth at the field are going to be your best bet, the business cards are a great idea. Of course all of this means nothing if AGD won't produce anything new...

Nobody wants to invest in a company that seems to be sitting still.

[Nobody]

suffice to say, no magic business man is going to fly in and push this company forward. as much as we all like TK, he doesn't care about AGD anymore as he has said that "there is no money in paintball". how long did it take to get the new AGD? has the financials been released so we know where our money went to? even though there is want and need for new parts other than the X-valves, RT Pros(do we really need a rehash of a classic?), what would people actually want to do?

pump kits will never come. as i remember it, the AGD pump kits sat for years and was a flop. its when pump play has become more prevalent AFTER the kits where sold that there is a clamor for them. i really think its more of the fact that the price for used is still high, that people want new so that the price will come down.

Emag, agian won't happen. Emags never flew off the shelves to begin with. you will always have people talking about them you either sight the design of it not progressing(same layout-though in retrospect i feel that the Mag is the Porsche 911 of the paintball world), or that its entirely too heavy. the cost of electronics is the biggest factor against them. you either need a total redesign of the system(different noids and such) or take in an existing board to help power it.

the warp feed was a flop. not that you need people in tourneys to use it, but there is always that one guy that you see with it, but yet it never catches on. besides, with modern forcefeed, you don't need the extra weight of it.

so tell me that i'm wrong and show me where my thoughts can be changed for the better and prove me wrong. i love AGD and my Mag, but this is a dead issue. the life support is there, but it won't pay for the transplants.

[GoatBoy]

See, the monkeys are already hard at work on the advertising problem! Bananas for everyone! :dance:

I think all these sluggo based bodies are useless. All they do is pretty up your gun at the expense of your pocketbook, and worse, they are a waste of time. Whoever is designing these things is wasting their considerable design capability on aesthetic crap when they could be designing something actually functional.

I say just go back to the steel tube. The classic body is just fine with some minor modifications.


suffice to say, no magic business man is going to fly in and push this company forward. as much as we all like TK, he doesn't care about AGD anymore as he has said that "there is no money in paintball". how long did it take to get the new AGD? has the financials been released so we know where our money went to? even though there is want and need for new parts other than the X-valves, RT Pros(do we really need a rehash of a classic?), what would people actually want to do?


No magic business man is going to fly in and pay to move the forum to new hosting either.

Yet somehow it happened.

If there's no money left in paintball, then how valuable is the AGD IP? How about just the classic, which you seem to assign no value to?

[OPBN]

Considering the introduction of the ULE not only decreased the weight, it also allowed for the use of real detents, clamping feednecks, and cocker threaded barrels I would consider it a substantial performance increase over the SS bodies that required using elbows. In regards to price, the last rendition of SS bidies that came with clamping feednecks were about $120, not much less than what ULEs cost. Having the ability to use Cocker threaded barrels alone is worth the price of a ULE.

And if you don't like aesthetically pleasing parts... Don't buy them, but saying that people are wasting their time and talents making them is a bit harsh. Actually pretty douchey really.

[GoatBoy]

Considering the introduction of the ULE not only decreased the weight, it also allowed for the use of real detents, clamping feednecks, and cocker threaded barrels I would consider it a substantial performance increase over the SS bodies that required using elbows. In regards to price, the last rendition of SS bidies that came with clamping feednecks were about $120, not much less than what ULEs cost. Having the ability to use Cocker threaded barrels alone is worth the price of a ULE.

Funny, I've got a stainless body right here that has a clamping feedneck without an extra elbow, Spyder/Ego detentes, and takes cocker threaded barrels.

Given the complexity of producing the ULE's, I have to wonder if making the stainless bodies is actually easier and cheaper, if you're smart about it. I mean it's great that they do such a nice welding job on those feed necks... but it's also unnecessary. I could be wrong here and maybe they could just revamp the ULE body and not do such complicated things, but the ol' stainless tube seems pretty easy.


And if you don't like aesthetically pleasing parts... Don't buy them, but saying that people are wasting their time and talents making them is a bit harsh. Actually pretty douchey really.

It's the truth. Having expensive upgrades available is nice as an option, but there are some basic things that need tending to first.

[RT Lover]

See, the monkeys are already hard at work on the advertising problem! Bananas for everyone! :dance:

I think all these sluggo based bodies are useless. All they do is pretty up your gun at the expense of your pocketbook, and worse, they are a waste of time. Whoever is designing these things is wasting their considerable design capability on aesthetic crap when they could be designing something actually functional.

dude input is great but it is far out there, isnt the best thing about a mag is the options? so u dont have anything nice? big tv, siding on your house, cd player smart phone? all really fancy items u dont need, i know(assume all others) what i put into my marker is my own business. Im a guy anything with boobs and flames i want. anyway if i want to spend it isnt my choice? what some dealers throw out there is just wicked... and it has a price, if u r good with a ss body im cool with it :rofl:

[OPBN]

I'm sorry but if you are really arguing that AGD or others should have pursued development of the ultimate SS body rather than the ULE, there's no reasoning with you. Troll on.

[GoatBoy]

I'm sorry but if you are really arguing that AGD or others should have pursued development of the ultimate SS body rather than the ULE, there's no reasoning with you. Troll on.

No, I'm not saying that. You clearly do not understand what I am saying.

You guys all talk big about having choice. But there is no choice for a less expensive automag body.

That's great that you can buy all the stupidly expensive bodies that you want, but where does the choice exist for a reasonable, basic, inexpensive body that literally isn't from the 90's? I'm not talking about pursuing the ultimate -- I'm talking about the exact opposite. Pursuing something REASONABLE.

WHERE IS THIS CHOICE YOU SPEAK OF?

[OPBN]

There are TONS of classic bodies out there. Why would anyone need to make more? So let's take one and add an AC adapter for $40. Say we lucked out and found a CF SS one and only paid $45 for it. We're now up to $85. We cut the feednecks down and add an ego feedneck for another $25. Now we are up to $110. For an extra $15 I could have a ULE body already AC threaded, so no adapter to get stuck, nice detent, and threaded for a clamping feedneck. And it weighs probably 1/2 of what the SS does. How does that make sense?

[GoatBoy]

There are TONS of classic bodies out there. Why would anyone need to make more? So let's take one and add an AC adapter for $40. Say we lucked out and found a CF SS one and only paid $45 for it. We're now up to $85. We cut the feednecks down and add an ego feedneck for another $25. Now we are up to $110. For an extra $15 I could have a ULE body already AC threaded, so no adapter to get stuck, nice detent, and threaded for a clamping feedneck. And it weighs probably 1/2 of what the SS does. How does that make sense?

That is *exactly* correct. It makes no sense to go that route. Piecing it together like that absolutely makes it more expensive.

So how much do you think it costs to make an Empire Trracer body?

[OPBN]

Maybe you should take lead on this. I'm sure there's a massive market out there for inexpensive SS bodies for Automags.

[brokeass_baller]

I get what he's saying. He isn't talking about beauty, he's talking cost only. He's saying something basic based around the classic valve could compete in todays market with similar mechs (Tippmanns) and probably lower-end electros. ULE bodies are apparently more expensive to produce than soldering a steel tube to another steel tube, then throwing in an insert with cocker threads and a normal detent.

That said, i think it's really sad we're taking about how to make a mag compete with the Tippmann price range. Automags were once held leagues above any Tippmann maker. It's sad to realize their fall.

[RehKal]

Fall? What fall?

Mags were -never- cheap and they still aren't. Nor should they be. They aren't some off the shelf, generic knock off marker produced by the thousands. They are one-off, highly customizable pieces of art and are reflected as such by their price tag. And honestly, they are a sight cheaper than some of the $1200 electros out there that come out with a new model every year where they tweak... the milling... or the color...

Remember back in the day of the classic automag? When you bought one, it was a grip, valve and body. No barrel, everything else was added and customized.. it wasn't until later that they came with everything else. ;P

[Nobody]

See, the monkeys are already hard at work on the advertising problem! Bananas for everyone! :dance:

I think all these sluggo based bodies are useless. All they do is pretty up your gun at the expense of your pocketbook, and worse, they are a waste of time. Whoever is designing these things is wasting their considerable design capability on aesthetic crap when they could be designing something actually functional.

I say just go back to the steel tube. The classic body is just fine with some minor modifications.

so you'd rather stifle the artist aspects of machinists who made the Chord, Dallara, the X mag, the SFL, Ripper, IT and all those aftermarket bodies? sure, just performance is nice, but sometimes people want to turn heads. would you buy a Ferrari that looked like a Honda Element? so a Chrysler K car is just as good as a Jaguar E type?

the modular breech on an Xmag allows you to switch from a warp feed to a vert feed. its nice to have when you want to go from a hose to a pose. hell, a smaller vert feed with a smaller hopper brings the mobility up on the gun so that you don't have this huge long brick that you are trying to move around. you are able to bring the center of gravity of the gun towards your hand and not above it. plus, all the steel adds up. guns that weigh less make for a more mobile person. why do you think that the stainless barrel fad is gone?

but the aftermarket bodies are personality. look at even the Eclipse body kits. they gave the person the option to personalize their gun. no one want to have the same thing that the person next to them has. its functional, but i'd take a vert feed clamping feed next over a powerfeed any day. i hated the elbows but it was a necessity. it also eliminates a break point. the elbow will fail before the body or the hopper.


No magic business man is going to fly in and pay to move the forum to new hosting either.

Yet somehow it happened.

If there's no money left in paintball, then how valuable is the AGD IP? How about just the classic, which you seem to assign no value to?

hate to tell you, my classic i bought in 1999. its my mud gun, its my anvil. put 30+ cases through it and it has yet to let me down. put some oil in it about a year ago to chase a small leak and that's it. changed everything but the rail and the valve and its a keeper. so i don't have anything against classics, except that they are dirt cheap, you can pick up an ex-rental for $100 and though its solid gun, its still weighs a ton, especially with the powerfeed bodies.

ummm, we the people paid the money to have the forum moved. TK didn't care, but listened to the people. he moved things around, but it wasn't his choice, it isn't his doing about redoing the forum, these are the people posting. also, TK himself said that there is no money in paintball. that's why he left AGD. hell, it will be worth talking to him at Tunaball and see what he says, if he does show up.

IPs couldn't tell you how much they are worth. don't care, i don't deal in them. but regardless of the item, an object is only worth what someone is willing to pay. to those on AGD, its worth a lot. to the people who post here, who do business only here. the rest of the world could care less.

[Cokrkilr]

I'm with rehkal, back in the day I spent over $250 for my classic, by the time i was done with 2-3 different frames, hyperframe, barrels, etc... I was up in the dm13 price range by today's standards. I played in probably 20-25 local tournaments with and without the hyper, either way, it was heavy, reliable, and one of the most accurate guns out on the field.

I personally wouldn't care if agd made another mag or not. I've got mine, I still find the parts I need, and it still turns heads every time I pull it out of the bag.

Id rather have my mag that maybe (a big maybe) 10 people in the world have in the exact configuration I have, than have a flood of mags out that look the same and generic but they are "new".

And as far as fancy stuff, get a one off made. Like everyone else is saying, if it were cost effective it would have been done already and there would still be stock on someones shelves... oh wait, agd still has purple ule bodies from 2000 on the shelf, that should say something right there

[OPBN]

Part of the problem I think is the idea that bringing back classic valves and bodies would instantly create a cheaper entry level marker. I would wager that building new classic valves wouldn't necassarily be that much cheaper. If someone wants an entry level Mag, buy used. When people want a Vette, but can't afford a new one, they buy a used older model. It's the way things work.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Part of the problem I think is the idea that bringing back classic valves and bodies would instantly create a cheaper entry level marker. I would wager that building new classic valves wouldn't necassarily be that much cheaper. If someone wants an entry level Mag, buy used. When people want a Vette, but can't afford a new one, they buy a used older model. It's the way things work.

I think the point of an entry level mag would be to bring new players into the fold. The Strength of the Automag used to be its durability and reliability. While that is still a strength, it's best feature imho is something that used to be it's greatest weakness; customization.

Get them with anything with an X-Valve for under 300 retail and the sky is the limit.

[OPBN]

Get them with anything with an X-Valve for under 300 retail and the sky is the limit.
Considering an X valve retails for about $250 that would be a really tough task.

[Bunny]

Just had a really odd thought, but has anyone ever thought about getting AO "business cards" printed up? They are dirt cheap these days and you could carry a handful around with you when playing. If someone comes up and asks you about your marker, you could talk to them briefly and hand them a snazzy card with the AO address on it. People have bad memories sometimes and simply telling them the info can be really overwhelming. Handing them a card with some pics of nice Mags and the AO web address might get them to stop by and get hooked.

Just a thought. Stupid one maybe, but a thought.

I really like that idea. Since AGD has a few dollars left over from the donation/upgrade, maybe we could use the cash for some business cards to generate new members. Once I finish up my idea for the CMS I may address this concept :D

[Patron God of Pirates]

Considering an X valve retails for about $250 that would be a really tough task.

Yeah, it's a tuffy. They would have to make enough to get the price down. Then surround it with throw away parts. Sell it on it's potential for customization. That gives stores something to up sell and customers that will come back. Nobody wants to sell something then never see the customer again because it's "perfect" out of the box

[Jaccen]

In my pipe dream land, I envision a sear and frame setup similar to flatliner's Eddy. ie. a sear that is activated by a plunger/solenoid pushing up rather than back and a frame that hosts it. It would retain the modularity of the 'mag while adding some new options.

I, briefly, held hopes that when Simon left Kee he was buying out/reuniting with AGD. That would have been a combo that I would gladly throw all of my disposable income at.

An AGD spec pneumag would be cool. Especially after the success the eNMey has had.

The chances of any of this? Slim. But one can dream.

[GoatBoy]

There is no reasonably priced, modern Automag option out there. It's that simple. You speak of choice, but there is no choice.

You guys talk about "Ferraris" and "style" and "customization" and "high end" stuff to the complete exclusion of the everyday needs. You.don't.get.it.

I've only broached the subject of the *body*. There's the reg back, the rail, and the grip to look at as well.


After the pain of modifying a stainless body to my needs, yeah, I've considered just doing some sort of custom run. I know people who want something similar to what I made. My friend asked me for one, I straight up told him 'no'.

[Nobody]

There is no reasonably priced, modern Automag option out there. It's that simple. You speak of choice, but there is no choice.

You guys talk about "Ferraris" and "style" and "customization" and "high end" stuff to the complete exclusion of the everyday needs. You.don't.get.it.

I've only broached the subject of the *body*. There's the reg back, the rail, and the grip to look at as well.


After the pain of modifying a stainless body to my needs, yeah, I've considered just doing some sort of custom run. I know people who want something similar to what I made. My friend asked me for one, I straight up told him 'no'.

then what are you asking? what do you consider a modern Automag? what is your criteria for it? classics are running cheap at $100, but if you are looking for UMF type frames for the same price as a Intelliframe, then you're delusional. its the same with X valves. you might find them cheap for $150, but that's only cause people want to move them quick. i'm happy that they are keeping value. so many things loose value quick in paintball. spend $1200ish on a BRAND new gun and 6 months later you might get half that price, if people want the gun.

you mentioned that you don't like the looks of any of the aftermarket bodies, and i posed a question? you like the old steel bodies, but you are in the minority. other than a nostalgia look, i wouldn't want an old body.

being able to carry one barrel threading is a godsend to people that have multiple guns. cocker threading even though it sucks, everyone knows it sucks, is the standard. so moving to a better body IS an everyday move, it made life easier for all. especially when combined with a lever lock feedneck, AS WELL as getting the hopper closer to the body so that you bring down the center of gravity. sorry, i don't know what you are complaining about.

the rail you have options to get a better look, but because of design, there is only so much you can do. the same with the reg back. i don't see and won't see anyone coming out with a different reg, other than people snatching up old Air America tank regs and swapping them on to it. plus, the reg back is only esthetics since there has not been any change to the reg. so you complain about the looks, then site something you can't really change. what are you asking?

personally, i think you only beat the drum for the old bodies cause you hate the prices of what is out there. its hard to pony up 5 Benjamins for a Dallara or whatever else and it sucks. oh well, that's the market. just because you can't afford it, doesn't mean that everyone has to play on your level.

so show a pic of your body. you've talked about it enough. personally, if people like what you do to the body, i'd be a fool not to make them. if it is good, then you would have a niche in the market that no one is doing.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

IIRC, it took them YEARS to finally get rid of the Y frames because they sold so poorly. There are several companies offering bodies, rails and frames already which is something that is usually handled by the aftermarket. Do Dye or Kee offer body kits or custom frames for their markers?

One area that I would strongly agree that updates could be done is in regards to colors. But then you get into what colors sell, which don't? And if you start anodizing the valves, you have to have matching bodies and what happens if people start ordering clown markers with red valves, purple bodies and green frames? So I get that aspect of it because if you make everything black, it all matches. And lets be honest, Mag are probably used more so in woodsball games than tourney, so black is probably a better choice for most.

My .02

Actually if they would sell in black and raw so that you could get it anodized yourself, I think that would be great. Plus, having raw parts on hand wouldn't create to much in overstock. You could always send them out to be anodized black if the black supply ran low.

Also, I would like to see an update in the efficiency of the valve. This is where the 'Mag is falling behind considerably. I know there is a drop in to do the job, but I would like to see a valve come out of the factory with better efficiency.

[Patron God of Pirates]

If I were AGD looking at this thread there is no way I'm deciding to introduce new Mags.

AGD needs to sell it's product to Paintball Stores. Stores will then sell them to players. They are going to push the products that have the best margins and the most opportunity to up sell. An expensive mech with all the bells and whistles with horizontal cosmetic only upgrades is not going to make money for shops. Especially when it can't compete with the bps of an out of the box low end elctro. Keep in mind MAG buyers also have to cough up an extra $100+ for an HPA tank.

I can't remember the last time I walked into a store that had any kind of Mag on the wall.

[GoatBoy]

then what are you asking? what do you consider a modern Automag? what is your criteria for it? classics are running cheap at $100, but if you are looking for UMF type frames for the same price as a Intelliframe, then you're delusional. its the same with X valves. you might find them cheap for $150, but that's only cause people want to move them quick. i'm happy that they are keeping value. so many things loose value quick in paintball. spend $1200ish on a BRAND new gun and 6 months later you might get half that price, if people want the gun.

You.just.don’t.get.it.

Coming out with a lower priced classic automag shouldn’t lower the value of the premium stuff you already have. There will always be guys off in make-believe Ferrari land who have to buy that stuff. So your “investment” is safe. As the saying goes, if mags have a tendency to breed, then it would seem that you want to try to lower the barrier to entry and let the rabbits go to work.

None of this affects you. You’re clearly an educated, high-income earner that rolls around town in his Ferrari, so I fail to see why any of this would concern you.

Crying about the value of your stuff to the exclusion of others who just want reasonably priced options is indicative of a deeper character trait. Doubly so when it doesn't affect you in the first place.


you mentioned that you don't like the looks of any of the aftermarket bodies, and i posed a question? you like the old steel bodies, but you are in the minority. other than a nostalgia look, i wouldn't want an old body.

You.just.don't.get.it.

You don't want an old body because it doesn't have modern features (like the cocker threads you mention), and yet you have to ask me what modern features I'm talking about?


being able to carry one barrel threading is a godsend to people that have multiple guns. cocker threading even though it sucks, everyone knows it sucks, is the standard. so moving to a better body IS an everyday move, it made life easier for all. especially when combined with a lever lock feedneck, AS WELL as getting the hopper closer to the body so that you bring down the center of gravity. sorry, i don't know what you are complaining about.

You.just.don’t.get.it.

I used cocker threaded barrels in my classic mag body. That's what I carry.


the rail you have options to get a better look, but because of design, there is only so much you can do. the same with the reg back. i don't see and won't see anyone coming out with a different reg, other than people snatching up old Air America tank regs and swapping them on to it. plus, the reg back is only esthetics since there has not been any change to the reg. so you complain about the looks, then site something you can't really change. what are you asking?

You.just.don’t.get.it.

Nowhere did I say the rail needed a “better look”. Why are you so stuck on aesthetics? I say, “I don’t care for aesthetics”, then you come back and tell me, “Well there’s not much you can do about the looks.” Are you even reading any of this? How about just an inexpensive, lightweight rail?

Switching backs on the reg doesn't change the functionality, and doesn't improve the looks, but it definitely makes it lighter. There's also the question of whether or not an aluminum back is more cost effective than a solid stainless steel one.


personally, i think you only beat the drum for the old bodies cause you hate the prices of what is out there. its hard to pony up 5 Benjamins for a Dallara or whatever else and it sucks. oh well, that's the market. just because you can't afford it, doesn't mean that everyone has to play on your level.

You.just.don’t.get.it.

This discussion we’re having is not real. It’s in Ferrari-land. In your mind, you drive a Ferrari. In the real world, people look at the prices for these mag bodies, frames, and rails and literally go, “WTF?!” Real world.


so show a pic of your body. you've talked about it enough.

It’s not anything you’d be interested in. No aesthetics, and it’s not something that you could show off to people to show that you spent a lot of money on it. So it’s not for you.


personally, if people like what you do to the body, i'd be a fool not to make them.

I wouldn't trust someone who couldn't make sense to make anything at all.


if it is good, then you would have a niche in the market that no one is doing.

I'm not in this for the money. That's probably what makes me doubly-troublesome to most of you and wrecks most of your "logic". I don't need advertising or shelf space or whatever nonsense you guys come up with. I'd like to get mags in people's hands.

What's your interest in this?

Oh, that's right, preserving the value of your current belongings.




On a more serious note, to everyone else: how exactly are the innards of the stainless body constructed? The external stuff is pretty easy -- weld a pim on and drill holes/slots. But what about that ring on the inside? How would that be done (cheaply)? I think there are ways to get away with not even doing it, but I’d like to know how it’s done on the original.

[OPBN]

I think the problem is that you think a magic wand can be waved and suddenly a $200 Automag will be possible. As mentioned I would venture a guess that even in larger quantities you would be hard pressed to make cheap valve be it Classic or X. Compare the milling of two, it not really that much different. I would also guess that due to its hardness that SS is actually more costly to mill as it takes a considerably higher toll on tooling which wear out quicker. Could be wrong, maybe a machinist can weigh in on this?

And I'm sorry if you can't afford some of the higher end parts, but that's what used parts are for. And it pretty much negates your argument that there isn't a lower priced choice. AGD doesn't make crap, for me, its part of the appeal. It sounds like sour grapes on your part that you can't afford some of the more costly components. And honestly there are several things out right now that I would love to be able to afford, but can't. It sucks but it is what it is. Do I think that because I can't afford expensive parts right now that they should not be made and instead the people putting out parts should concentrate on cheaper items? Absolutely not! I just wait and hope when things get better financially I can find some used ones that someone wants to let go. It's kind of how things work. And I think that's what YOU aren't getting. Automags aren't low end end markers and we don't want them to be.

[dodge3500]

I'm all for a new mag.I would be glad to pay 650 to 750ish for one that has some color to it and double detents, clamping feed neck,colored matching x-valve and a little touch to the curves of it.the classic 68 with clamping vertical feed neck and autococker threaded barrel with no x-valve for let's say 325 to 350ish as far as the more inexpensive one.oooh and keep it all interchangeable like they are now.yeah I know,wishful thinking:-) :-)

[knownothingmags]

I'm all for a new mag.I would be glad to pay 650 to 750ish for one that has some color to it and double detents, clamping feed neck,colored matching x-valve and a little touch to the curves of it.the classic 68 with clamping vertical feed neck and autococker threaded barrel with no x-valve for let's say 325 to 350ish as far as the more inexpensive one.oooh and keep it all interchangeable like they are now.yeah I know,wishful thinking:-) :-)

all that is already available. just keep looking, and talk to an anodizer.

[Freedy500]

I dont see much more to ask from AGD. IMO they already have the best markers on the planet, but there a few improvements/add ons I would love to have (but dont see happening).

1. Would be a ULE sorta classic valve, one that weighs a lot less, those things are heavy.

2. Make all classic valves have the option or ability to run off of a ULT everytime would be great for my minimag pistol.

3. An AGD produced efficiency upgrade. This seems to be the only weak spot for most AGD markers. I know hills mod did plenty but I want to see one designed and built by AGD, one that will not effect an RT's ability and either comes stock in new markers/valves or is a drop in for both valve types.

4. Would be great if they put out an AO statement that they could get a thing going where they will need an X amount of pre-orders to do a run of their older yet desired products such as the Z or Y grips.

But besides all that I want nothing more from AGD but for them to keep their doors open.

[dodge3500]

Ooh I know,I would just like AGD to be back on the shelves.I hate seeing soo many of the old names all but gone or disappearing.

[Nobody]

You.just.don’t.get.it.

Coming out with a lower priced classic automag shouldn’t lower the value of the premium stuff you already have. There will always be guys off in make-believe Ferrari land who have to buy that stuff. So your “investment” is safe. As the saying goes, if mags have a tendency to breed, then it would seem that you want to try to lower the barrier to entry and let the rabbits go to work.

None of this affects you. You’re clearly an educated, high-income earner that rolls around town in his Ferrari, so I fail to see why any of this would concern you.

Crying about the value of your stuff to the exclusion of others who just want reasonably priced options is indicative of a deeper character trait. Doubly so when it doesn't affect you in the first place.

well explain it, cause what you're saying isn't making it.

what then would you like to see as a lower priced mag option? classic valve, steel body and a CF frame? well, you can buy them used and though AGD doesn't receive that money, you can get them. building a gun is better, more fun than just buying one with all the options. it comes into the personal aspect. this was the big thing with cockers back in the day where you can build a gun without even touching a WGP part. sure, AGD is a little late to that party, its here none the less. plus the people who do EgoMag and Pneumag have made a new option that none of the other guns can touch.




You.just.don't.get.it.

You don't want an old body because it doesn't have modern features (like the cocker threads you mention), and yet you have to ask me what modern features I'm talking about?

THEN EXPLAIN IT. you keep saying you just don't get it, bit have yet to explain what you are wanting.


You.just.don’t.get.it.

I used cocker threaded barrels in my classic mag body. That's what I carry.

again explain why or how a steel body is better than our modern option?


You.just.don’t.get.it.

Nowhere did I say the rail needed a “better look”. Why are you so stuck on aesthetics? I say, “I don’t care for aesthetics”, then you come back and tell me, “Well there’s not much you can do about the looks.” Are you even reading any of this? How about just an inexpensive, lightweight rail?

Switching backs on the reg doesn't change the functionality, and doesn't improve the looks, but it definitely makes it lighter. There's also the question of whether or not an aluminum back is more cost effective than a solid stainless steel one.

you asked what you can change and i listed. you say you don't care for esthetics but have not even bothered to say what you like. the rail, that's your problem right there. you can have 3 options: cheap, quality(light weight) and availability. choose 2. i bought a praxis rail for my Emag build and it cost me $85. happy to pay it, cause when i had my first Emag, i didn't like the weight, so this time i'll try to shed weight where i can.

when dealing with stainless it a bear to machine and that adds to the cost. aluminium is the better option as it weighs less, is easier to machine and its the only option for an Xvalve. why would you want to go backwards in material? if anything, you would want a lighter but stronger material, like a titanium or similar metal but the costs for the raw material and the machining time makes it cost ineffective. aluminium is fairly cheap but strong, hence its use. simple as that.


You.just.don’t.get.it.

This discussion we’re having is not real. It’s in Ferrari-land. In your mind, you drive a Ferrari. In the real world, people look at the prices for these mag bodies, frames, and rails and literally go, “WTF?!” Real world.

Lucy, care to s'plain this? i'm in the same boat. i hate to see that it would cost $400+ for a Chord body, but that's what the market is. either you like it, hope to find a great deal on a new body or go with the cheaper ULE.



It’s not anything you’d be interested in. No aesthetics, and it’s not something that you could show off to people to show that you spent a lot of money on it. So it’s not for you.

wow, i ask you to show me your option and yet you decide that its not for me. i asked cause i want to see what you are talking about. if its not for me then let me decide. you aren't me and don't know what i like. you may think i have something special on my Mag but i don't. its plain jane, but its my anvil. anvils are pretty, they just work and that's what my mag does.



I wouldn't trust someone who couldn't make sense to make anything at all.

I'm not in this for the money. That's probably what makes me doubly-troublesome to most of you and wrecks most of your "logic". I don't need advertising or shelf space or whatever nonsense you guys come up with. I'd like to get mags in people's hands.

well, no pics, so i have no idea what your talking about. i would like to see this body cause i want to understand what you are about.

now, i can actually agree with you about getting more mags in people's hands.


What's your interest in this?

Oh, that's right, preserving the value of your current belongings.

i want to see it, cause you've talked about this and i want to see what this is about. its called understanding, its called learning. i only have 2 mags(one complete and one i'm building), no huge collection(i have collections of different guns, mainly ICD). my classic is my mud gun and my Emag is something i want to be happy with. that's it. nothing special, no EuroX mags, no SFLs, no Shatner signed guns, no Hello Kitty stuff. just 2 plain mags. so there isn't much value to preserve.


On a more serious note, to everyone else: how exactly are the innards of the stainless body constructed? The external stuff is pretty easy -- weld a pim on and drill holes/slots. But what about that ring on the inside? How would that be done (cheaply)? I think there are ways to get away with not even doing it, but I’d like to know how it’s done on the original.

i'd assume that the ring is a pressfit. set it on a dowel and press the body on it. sometimes it can be that simple, but its been a while since i looked at a stainless body

[Nobody]

I dont see much more to ask from AGD. IMO they already have the best markers on the planet, but there a few improvements/add ons I would love to have (but dont see happening).

1. Would be a ULE sorta classic valve, one that weighs a lot less, those things are heavy.

2. Make all classic valves have the option or ability to run off of a ULT everytime would be great for my minimag pistol.

3. An AGD produced efficiency upgrade. This seems to be the only weak spot for most AGD markers. I know hills mod did plenty but I want to see one designed and built by AGD, one that will not effect an RT's ability and either comes stock in new markers/valves or is a drop in for both valve types.

4. Would be great if they put out an AO statement that they could get a thing going where they will need an X amount of pre-orders to do a run of their older yet desired products such as the Z or Y grips.

But besides all that I want nothing more from AGD but for them to keep their doors open.

1) why? what advantage could you have with a ULE classic? the reason its SS, is because it was supposed to last a life time.

2) by turning a classic to fit a ULT, it makes it a X valve, so what's the point of the X valve other than weighing less than the classic. so what is the advantage, what is the reason to do it?

3) this is a weird one. when i put my L10 in my Mag my efficiency went up. don't know what i did, but i can get 1200+ shots off a 68/4500. but, with the no cost air options, do you need more efficiency? i generally carry only as much paint as i can off a full fill. i don't need to worry about efficiency. though for someone wanting to run a tourney with a mag, this could be something, but what about people shooting shockers(SFT & NXT), or other spool type valves that aren't getting a case off a 68/4500? the efficiency game is a non factor to me.

4) even though people want them, the Y and Z frames weren't huge sellers. even though they are desired, if tomorrow they were made available, could you buy one? that's the thing. look at all the pre-orders and the people who want these kinds of products, but when people put in the time and money to make them, the orders fall flat and no one comes up with the cash and people get angry when these things fall through.

[blackdeath1k]

I'm betting production expense wise a classic valve doesn't cost much less if any to produce than an rt platform valve. So why start making the lower capability valve again? That is pointless capitol expense waste on a company. Now if it could be produced at half the price. And an rt platform valve couldn't. Then there just might be a market for that. Since you could now have a cheaper entry level gun.

Efficiency? Only time I could see this being a real issue could be in a big game. Other than that. What's the issue? Most Fields are free air with the admission to play. Get air before each game. Or after a couple games. Heck. If you don't have a lead finger you may get through a day on a 68 4500 tank. I normally get through a day on a single fill. And I've never had more than 3300psi in my tank due to the area I live.

Rich players? I've got 2 mags. A classic rt set bone stock other than the I frame. I fell in love with these guns when they came out and can't even bring myself to remove the sight rail because I like its look. Wife now has a used classic minimag with I frame. Nothing special. At some point I would love to have a fancy mag body. But other toys of mine earn the money over having many guns. We all spend money on toys. Some have a lot of paintball guns. Some have one horribly expensive gun. Me. I have and expensive customs sport bike. To mouth off about the people with the expensive guns being rich? No. Paintball guns are just there hobby that gets the money.

As for AGD. I just want them to stay in business for years to come. And that can only happen as long as there is profit coming in the doors. Since there 500 dollar new gun in mech form can compete with all the fancy electros. And without batteries. And having great reliability. With many options for flashy upgrades or one off customs designs. To me. It seams that publicity and marketing is really all the company needs to stay strong and stable. I don't expect them to ever be where they were in the market in the mid 90s. But I want to know that they are stable. This is the one last original pb company.

[Freedy500]

1) why? what advantage could you have with a ULE classic? the reason its SS, is because it was supposed to last a life time.

2) by turning a classic to fit a ULT, it makes it a X valve, so what's the point of the X valve other than weighing less than the classic. so what is the advantage, what is the reason to do it?

3) this is a weird one. when i put my L10 in my Mag my efficiency went up. don't know what i did, but i can get 1200+ shots off a 68/4500. but, with the no cost air options, do you need more efficiency? i generally carry only as much paint as i can off a full fill. i don't need to worry about efficiency. though for someone wanting to run a tourney with a mag, this could be something, but what about people shooting shockers(SFT & NXT), or other spool type valves that aren't getting a case off a 68/4500? the efficiency game is a non factor to me.

4) even though people want them, the Y and Z frames weren't huge sellers. even though they are desired, if tomorrow they were made available, could you buy one? that's the thing. look at all the pre-orders and the people who want these kinds of products, but when people put in the time and money to make them, the orders fall flat and no one comes up with the cash and people get angry when these things fall through.
Hey I did not look for much criticism or an argument stand point but oh well. Just stating my personal opinions, I even said none of these would ever happen. Oh well here I go.

1). I dont mean to come off of as offensive but this is really a flat out stupid question. How about I triple the thickness of everything in your marker with the same performance and throw a few 20lb weights on your marker and throw somebody of an equivalent skill with the same marker that was standard with no added on weight but same performance and see the difference. Or an even better example is whether you would want your shoes to weigh 10 pounds each or under 1lb each with the same durability? I am not looking to degrade the durability in the classic. It could just be made lighter with some different materials which could actually be better to produce since SS is tough on machinery.

2). Lets see, the price range might jut be a tad bit different dont ya think? Also not all X-valves use the ULT you know. You cant RT and get 20-30+ on a classic can you? Plenty of the X-valve is different in terms of how it compares to the classic, there are two different parts kits for a reason. Also with the classic's trigger pull being hard as a rock and me having a minimag pistol it would be nice to have a smoother trigger pull. Not looking to walk it or anything.

3). EX. Lets say you have the choice between 2 cars that are both hybrids, they can both run off of electricity only for 40 miles each. You travel that at most everyday when you go to work and by days end you need to recharge. But one of the cars only gets 22 miles to the gallon and has a tank that holds 15 gallons. And the other car gets 68 mpg with a tank that also holds 15 gallons. Which would you rather have? Maybe one night you forgot to charge the car and you had a big trip to go on and you had no way to pay for gas. I can get unlimited air fills for a whole year at both my shop and local field for only $10 a year per tank. But I would sure as hell want a more efficient marker if given the option. like in the example, what if I dont have time or I forget to go get a fill and a important game is about to take place? Also if it is efficient enough you could potentially use a smaller tank which would weigh less and you therefore have more "ease of use" and you are faster and less fatigued throughout each game.

4). No I would not be able to buy one tomorrow. So that is why you pre-order it. You are given a "heads up" or a deadline. If by the deadline you do not have all money turned for the X amount of orders then you will have to wait by the next deadline where the other people need to pay off their money. Not that hard to comprehend. I said pre-order not permanently put back into production.

[Nobody]

Hey I did not look for much criticism or an argument stand point but oh well. Just stating my personal opinions, I even said none of these would ever happen. Oh well here I go.

i was looking for a good, solid, frank discussion. if you want an e-arguement, or a flame war, let's go over to MCB and say that the only thing that brass is good for is to make musical instruments so you can play something at the bonfire of the burning KP stocks. :) this is to maybe work out what people want, what people are looking for, and to see if through this discussion, that maybe we can spark some interest in something new.


1). I dont mean to come off of as offensive but this is really a flat out stupid question. How about I triple the thickness of everything in your marker with the same performance and throw a few 20lb weights on your marker and throw somebody of an equivalent skill with the same marker that was standard with no added on weight but same performance and see the difference. Or an even better example is whether you would want your shoes to weigh 10 pounds each or under 1lb each with the same durability? I am not looking to degrade the durability in the classic. It could just be made lighter with some different materials which could actually be better to produce since SS is tough on machinery.

never any stupid questions, just stupid people asking stupid questions(but that is not directed at you). to me, the classic is fine valve but dead as a platform. plus, there are tons of classic valves out there so that you don't need something new. though i agree that the classic could go on a diet, even just finding someone to reliably cut the weight off, would be a god send. now for the trigger, that's simple, leverage of a 2 finger trigger frame. but then you have the people that don't like a 2 finger trigger and we are back to step 1. so in that i can see where you are coming from.


2). Lets see, the price range might jut be a tad bit different dont ya think? Also not all X-valves use the ULT you know. You cant RT and get 20-30+ on a classic can you? Plenty of the X-valve is different in terms of how it compares to the classic, there are two different parts kits for a reason. Also with the classic's trigger pull being hard as a rock and me having a minimag pistol it would be nice to have a smoother trigger pull. Not looking to walk it or anything.

granted, i have limited experience with the X type valve. i don't know about the limited use of the ULT in all the valves. i have the experience with the classic but near nothing with X or Retro or Emag or any of the newer valves. now for your minimag pistol, i would think that a pneumatic trigger(but not one that RTs) would make it easier for you. but in all honesty, i can't remember what a single trigger felt like with a classic. i never had a problem, but i is one, me.


3). EX. Lets say you have the choice between 2 cars that are both hybrids, they can both run off of electricity only for 40 miles each. You travel that at most everyday when you go to work and by days end you need to recharge. But one of the cars only gets 22 miles to the gallon and has a tank that holds 15 gallons. And the other car gets 68 mpg with a tank that also holds 15 gallons. Which would you rather have? Maybe one night you forgot to charge the car and you had a big trip to go on and you had no way to pay for gas. I can get unlimited air fills for a whole year at both my shop and local field for only $10 a year per tank. But I would sure as hell want a more efficient marker if given the option. like in the example, what if I dont have time or I forget to go get a fill and a important game is about to take place? Also if it is efficient enough you could potentially use a smaller tank which would weigh less and you therefore have more "ease of use" and you are faster and less fatigued throughout each game.

in terms of efficiency, would it be worth it? the bottle size to me is insignificant, i use 68/4500 almost all the time, with just a 45/45 for a couple things. i can see this argument, but how do we improve it? if you lighten the rest of the gun, then the bottle weight/size doesn't matter. if you improve just the efficiency then you can shorten the gun. its apple and oranges to me. this is one thing that i don't have an answer on.


4). No I would not be able to buy one tomorrow. So that is why you pre-order it. You are given a "heads up" or a deadline. If by the deadline you do not have all money turned for the X amount of orders then you will have to wait by the next deadline where the other people need to pay off their money. Not that hard to comprehend. I said pre-order not permanently put back into production.

we all know that pre-orders are like. we get all the good intentions, people step up, people pay and if there are problems then that's when the poop hits the fan. even if something came from AGD, they not only need a bigger pre-order number to make it happen, they would need a great number of pre-sold even to get it started. higher numbers will get the costs down, but it would mean that you would have to sell more. having the money put into an escrow account would help with people backing out, but its the starting that is the hardest. i like the Z frame, but i'm not ready to think about buying one. but even a limited run would be nice to see. and as much as i could naysay, i hope this is more of a Devil's advocate and help get things off the ground, by putting a fire in someone's belly and proving me wrong.

so this is what i would like to see in a new gun.

1) different or improved rail. chopping out the excess metal and giving it a better look. would love to see the entire line of Emag, classic and RTPro
2) a updated ULE body, or even a couple bodies. just a different look, something new instead of the same old body that was made 10 years ago
3) stock clamping feedneck that says AGD
4) pump kit, but that is a pipe dream that will never happen

that's it. i'm not looking for a new gun, just some support for what they already have and will sell more easily.

[cockerpunk]

IIT: people who have no idea what they are talking about.

there is not going to be another automag from AGD ... get over it.

AGD is a shoebox of parts in roman's garage. literally.

[OPBN]

We have a ULE Classic valve that's made out of a lighter material, it's called an X valve. Using the Corvette analogy again, asking to start making Classics again is like asking GM to start producing C5's again. Just because they are an older design doesn't make them less expensive to produce. The problem is, we see Classic valves out there used for $45-60 and think that this is all they went for when new. Pretty sure they were considerably higher than what they are selling for now. Much like used Corvettes sell for considerably less than new ones. And then when a new generation comes out, they drop even more.

And Luke does the mod on Classics so they will accept a ULT.

Only so much you can really do with ULE bodies. I also feel this is something for the aftermarket.

Maybe TOTShadow or someone can get an AGD clamping feedneck order together. AKA or CCM make nice feednecks, maybe a batch can be ordered without logos or maybe CCM would run a small batch or AO or AGD ones? Seems like a pretty simple request. I'm not interested in one, as I order all mine without lazering, but to each his own.

I think Rainman will start making pumps again and I have heard rumblings of another person possibly making some. With that said, everyone that makes pump kits excluding XM15 says they are slow movers. I do think howeever, if someone came out again with a sub $80 pump kit that they would sell. Irony of pumps being on fire nowadays and no one producing kits. I'm sure as soon as the pump fad dies 3 different people will come out with something.

[blackdeath1k]

AGD is a shoebox of parts in roman's garage. literally.


That is the sad thing I hate to hear. But sadly I bet it is correct.

[GoatBoy]

How many units do you believe you would have to make (and sell) to reach the price point you have in mind?

I don't have a breakout of how much each bit costs, but the big items would be 3 pims, effectively two ~0.750" holes and that spring carrier/washer (hadn't thought of baking in, but it makes sense now) in the middle of the stainless body.

And the accompanying plastic bits which of course I can take care of.




On the original topic of this thread, yes, nothing is coming forth from AGD.