Empire Resurrection Opinions

[Rosenberg]

Long time automag owner....first time thread posting.

Just got back from Tunaball....had a great time. What I can say, it made me rethink my passion for mech markers. No matter what electro gun I shoot, no matter how smooth it feels, no matter how much fun you have using it...I still like the feel of an automag. That being said...I had a chance to look at the Resurrection. I don't wanna lie, I liked it. But, like most people , I search the internet to see what others have to say. What is your opinion of the new Empire Resurrection? Looking for honest feedback from anyone who has had hands on experience with it.
It will never be an Automag, but lets be honest. Simon knows what he is doing and this marker could finally make this Automag user be a true fan of an autococker.

[GEE TEE]

http://customcockers.com/forum/showthread.php?46791-Empire-Resurrection-Autococker-Review

Great review on Custom Cockers by Docfire

I've had the Empire sniper pump for a few years and loving it, so really looking forward to getting a semi version once they hit UK shops

[cudamelland]

It’s a good looking marker, but the price is outrageous. $550 for a mechanical marker is laughable. The barrel kit is a joke you get 5 inserts that go up by 5 so it goes 675,680,685 and so on, you’re always going to be slightly over or under. A good price on an ULE Mag with an X valve and level 10 is still about $150 less. Now maybe this is the best shooting mechanical marker ever made, but I believe that code was broken a long time ago. Now I haven’t had the chance to shoot it, but being a Kee action representative I believe this thing will drop in price a lot faster than even the sniper did.

[splat15k]

It’s a good looking marker, but the price is outrageous. $550 for a mechanical marker is laughable. The barrel kit is a joke you get 5 inserts that go up by 5 so it goes 675,680,685 and so on, you’re always going to be slightly over or under. A good price on an ULE Mag with an X valve and level 10 is still about $150 less. Now maybe this is the best shooting mechanical marker ever made, but I believe that code was broken a long time ago. Now I haven’t had the chance to shoot it, but being a Kee action representative I believe this thing will drop in price a lot faster than even the sniper did.

I feel the opposite; I think the marker is ugly and the barrel kit is one of the few appealing aspects of the resurrection. I wouldn't mind the $550 price tag if it didn't LOOK cheap. I'm sure it performs very well, but the aesthetics aren't up to par with a high-end autococker. Also, I prefer full-body w/ a back block over mid or half blocks. To the OP: take my opinions on the resurrection with a grain of salt as I have no hands-on experience with one.

[OPBN]

It’s a good looking marker, but the price is outrageous. $550 for a mechanical marker is laughable. The barrel kit is a joke you get 5 inserts that go up by 5 so it goes 675,680,685 and so on, you’re always going to be slightly over or under. A good price on an ULE Mag with an X valve and level 10 is still about $150 less.

Brand new RT Pro ULE from AGD is about the same price and doesnt come with a barrel kit. You can't compare used prices to new.

[dodge3500]

I was gonna get one but had a change of heart.I cannot confirm but been told made in Taiwan like the autococker sr I think.I got to shoot one at a local field just for a hopper full and it was smooth and shot well but to me the anno looks cheap like the axes and minis.I get enough over the pond junk from Walmart already soo there's no way I'm gonna drop 550 on a across the pond marker when I can get another mag and feel good about my purchase. There are a couple of new markers comming out soon enough made here in the USA.I may not get to totally buy American but gonna do my best when possible. I have went from fancy electros to mainly mags and autococker pumps.:-) if you do go through with the purchase of one ,I'm sure you will like it though.I've just gotten picky in my old age lol

[[NA]WARLORD]

It’s a good looking marker, but the price is outrageous. $550 for a mechanical marker is laughable. The barrel kit is a joke you get 5 inserts that go up by 5 so it goes 675,680,685 and so on, you’re always going to be slightly over or under. A good price on an ULE Mag with an X valve and level 10 is still about $150 less. Now maybe this is the best shooting mechanical marker ever made, but I believe that code was broken a long time ago. Now I haven’t had the chance to shoot it, but being a Kee action representative I believe this thing will drop in price a lot faster than even the sniper did.

KEE Action Rep ? I bet they would be real interested in your assessment of their products your supposed to be pushing. The Sniper prices never dropped over here on the east coast as we could not keep them in stock. It wasn't until this year that we finally have one sitting in the shop for people to actually hold and we have sold two this year. The barrel kit is the same barrel kit that Infamous used on their Axe's last season, and they had a good year last year, so I would hardly call them a joke. If you had to drop the price on your Sniper to push it out the door, then maybe you should consider a new career path.

As for the Resurrection, I have been a die hard Mag fan for years and still like them ( kind of pissed I missed the ULE Mini mag sale, but meh) but the Cocker is quite nice. I got to play with one last week, one of the guys at the field had one and let me borrow it for a quick game. The trigger is really smooth and almost as nice as a CCM frame as it was almost impossible to short stroke it ( I say almost only due to someone someday might, but I didn't) I chrono'd it at 265, ran a .680 insert and had no chops or SS the entire game. It was smooth and quiet and very light compared to the older bodied Cockers of the past. Is it worth 550.00, to some, not to all, but I can recall when some Cockers of the past we're double that and offered less, so only you can decide if you can justify the price. I will have one eventually.

[rschoi_75]

I'm a big autococker fan as well. And as much I wanted to hate it, I can't. They are solid shooting markers. They aren't the most aesthetically pleasing (that's just me), but they do function as promised.

edit - adding on to that... my only reservation with the marker is the non-universal parts. I would have preferred it if they made it 100% compatible with other cockers, but that's not a big issue with their target demographic.

[GoatBoy]

Do you guys really buy Autocockers for their "aesthetics"?

[rschoi_75]

I do, but I'm not normal. I have issues. :)

But seriously, I like the way they look, and I like they way they function. Some don't, some do. That's just the way it is.
I can see where you're trying to go with your comment, but we've all been there and done that (the versus discussion). It always ends the same way... "to each their own".

[cudamelland]

WARLORD;2831995']KEE Action Rep ? I bet they would be real interested in your assessment of their products your supposed to be pushing. The Sniper prices never dropped over here on the east coast as we could not keep them in stock. It wasn't until this year that we finally have one sitting in the shop for people to actually hold and we have sold two this year. The barrel kit is the same barrel kit that Infamous used on their Axe's last season, and they had a good year last year, so I would hardly call them a joke. If you had to drop the price on your Sniper to push it out the door, then maybe you should consider a new career path.
My bad I didn't mean to offend anyone with my opinion. I hope you understand that it is just my opinion and I wasn't trying to convert you to my new anti Resurrection autococker religion. I love capitalism, But my main goal is to grow the sport. My opinion again, but If I can pay my bills and keep the doors open with a $50 mark up I'm doing something right. The guy asking for 200 more then cost will be the one that should be considering a new career path. I find it funny that you bring up how Imfamous used the same barrel kit last year but forget to mention that it wasn't good enough for the 2013 season.

[[NA]WARLORD]

My bad I didn't mean to offend anyone with my opinion. I hope you understand that it is just my opinion and I wasn't trying to convert you to my new anti Resurrection autococker religion. I love capitalism, But my main goal is to grow the sport. My opinion again, but If I can pay my bills and keep the doors open with a $50 mark up I'm doing something right. The guy asking for 200 more then cost will be the one that should be considering a new career path. I find it funny that you bring up how Imfamous used the same barrel kit last year but forget to mention that it wasn't good enough for the 2013 season.

Actually, we sell them at retail alone or discount with a package deal. Yeah, I find it funny too that a Kee Rep didn't know the Empire poster boys switched set-ups this year from the Axe to the Vanquish, which comes with the new Freak kit. Why you may ask ? So they can sell more newer/higher priced products to all the legions of fanboys that follow Kee/Empire.

[blackdeath1k]

WARLORD;2832058'] So they can sell more newer/higher priced products to all the legions of fanboys that follow Kee/Empire.

Dontcha love how it works. Doesn't matter if your product is better or worse when in in sales. Its the marketing that matters. Get your product seen in the hands of " the pro's" and the sales will come.

As for a autococker. When I finally buy one. I want either a 96 or 97 with all the upgrades of that era. Or a late 90s STO. If I'm gonna carry one I want a true cutting edge of its time that I grew up playing with and against cocker. Not some flashy semi clone of a past relic.

[going_home]

Do you guys really buy Autocockers for their "aesthetics"?

Good point.

;)

[GoatBoy]

I do, but I'm not normal. I have issues. :)

But seriously, I like the way they look, and I like they way they function. Some don't, some do. That's just the way it is.
I can see where you're trying to go with your comment, but we've all been there and done that (the versus discussion). It always ends the same way... "to each their own".

It's not in the context of a "versus" discussion, but more a simple observation about aesthetics.

It really is just hard to mesh aesthetics with a gun that basically has its private parts dangling out the front in the breeze for all to see.

Getting beyond that, I still don't see what's wrong with the milling or anno color or anything. It's a fairly modern styling, right down to the half-block. The only reason I can see for keeping the full back body style is to allow for a sight rail or something on top. (Or something like the FX Cocker Pump body. Apparently some people loved the looks of that one. *cough*)

Perhaps OP should have asked for facts instead of opinions...

The gun itself appears to have best- or near-best-in-class components with a few exclusive extras and thoughtfulness tossed in. I really think those will be the deciding factor and not aesthetics or manufacturing origin.

If nothing else, the Resurrection should totally tank existing used mech cocker prices. Perhaps rightly so.

[Rosenberg]

I guess I should have asked for opinions on performance as opposed to just opinions. It seems like a great deal of the paintball world (sometimes myself included) will focus on apperance instead of function. If I were to adjust the original question....it would probably read more like... Looking for on hand users of the new Empire Resurrection. Wanting to know if you feel it will be a good reliable marker. Wanting to know if it will be hard to tune, tinker with, or be as finicky as autocockers of the past. I have owned only one other autococker in the past 15 plus years and told myself I would never do it again. The fact that automags are usually fixed by replacing an oring was way too impressionable on me while I watched others not be able to play all day while "fixing" their guns. Please give any feedback you feel would sway my opinion of the new Empire (aside from apperance. afterall, it is not looks that allows you to play on the field all day). Thanks

[rschoi_75]

It's not in the context of a "versus" discussion, but more a simple observation about aesthetics.

It really is just hard to mesh aesthetics with a gun that basically has its private parts dangling out the front in the breeze for all to see.

Getting beyond that, I still don't see what's wrong with the milling or anno color or anything. It's a fairly modern styling, right down to the half-block. The only reason I can see for keeping the full back body style is to allow for a sight rail or something on top. (Or something like the FX Cocker Pump body. Apparently some people loved the looks of that one. *cough*)



The same could be said about motorcycles... Anyways, like I said... "to each their own". There's no point going down this road. You can't argue with someone's sense of beauty/style, because it's not a science. If someone likes it, then that's all that matters. You can either accept it for what it is, or shake your head and look down on them.

I know that this is obviously not the forum to be trying to pump up said marker. :) AO has somewhat of a mob mentality when it comes to these things, so I'm not going to get into that. It'd be a futile effort on my part to try to have an unbiased discussion here.



I guess I should have asked for opinions on performance as opposed to just opinions.

Wanting to know if you feel it will be a good reliable marker. Wanting to know if it will be hard to tune, tinker with, or be as finicky as autocockers of the past.

I've shot one. They are nice. Like I said in my original post, I wanted to hate it, but I can't. They shoot well. The trigger is smooth and very hard to short stroke. On the flip side, your fears are valid. It will go out of time like any other cocker if you mess with the settings. It's still a cocker.

[OPBN]

I personally like the way Autocockers look aesthetically. Only reason I have shied away for the most part is the continual mention of how finicky and hard to tune they can be.

[GoatBoy]

The same could be said about motorcycles... Anyways, like I said... "to each their own". There's no point going down this road. You can't argue with someone's sense of beauty/style, because it's not a science. If someone likes it, then that's all that matters. You can either accept it for what it is, or shake your head and look down on them.

I know that this is obviously not the forum to be trying to pump up said marker. :) AO has somewhat of a mob mentality when it comes to these things, so I'm not going to get into that. It'd be a futile effort on my part to try to have an unbiased discussion here.


The same can be said about motorcycles, cars, lawnmowers, power tools... basically anything men typically try to be compensatory about. But right now, we're talking about cockers.

I'm not trying to "pump" the marker either way; I'm just trying to be rational.

The parts that always annoyed me on my old autococker were the 3-way o-rings, which were the first to leak and were a pain to get at. (In fact, the second time around, I decided it wasn't worth my time and sold it.) Here it looks like you can slide the assembly out the back (?). You can also service the ram without removing it, and it has the wrench flats where appropriate. Those were some of the niceties that I mentioned.

I do find it curious that amidst all this talk of aesthetics and manufacturing origin that very little has been said about the valve. If it shares the same design as the Sniper, that means it's a Spyder valve, and the valve has to come out the back and take an exciting ride over the IVG threads.

[debruynda]

I guess I should have asked for opinions on performance as opposed to just opinions. It seems like a great deal of the paintball world (sometimes myself included) will focus on apperance instead of function. If I were to adjust the original question....it would probably read more like... Looking for on hand users of the new Empire Resurrection. Wanting to know if you feel it will be a good reliable marker. Wanting to know if it will be hard to tune, tinker with, or be as finicky as autocockers of the past. I have owned only one other autococker in the past 15 plus years and told myself I would never do it again. The fact that automags are usually fixed by replacing an oring was way too impressionable on me while I watched others not be able to play all day while "fixing" their guns. Please give any feedback you feel would sway my opinion of the new Empire (aside from apperance. afterall, it is not looks that allows you to play on the field all day). Thanks

If you buy one Toof, I am going to borrow it, a lot. I got to shoot the one that a player was using at Tuna Ball. A couple notes on performance: the trigger was nice and crisp, not too light and not too stiff. As much as I tried, it was really hard to short stroke it. One of the design implements I noted right off the bat was a lack of a cocking rod coming out the back. I meant to ask Simon about it but did not have a chance. Overall I sense that the reliability will be good, just as long as you don't mess with the timing:)

Now as a personal opinion, I loved cockers for their ability to be upgraded and mod'd to ones personal taste. There was a lot of aluminum on the bodies and that made a great canvas for millwork and personal touches. One of the things I liked about the cockers was all the moving parts. I thought it was cool having the back block cycling and all the sound it made.

Mag's are the coolest, but cockers are cool too. Wait until people start selling their used resurrections or the price comes down...even though it sounds like you are ready to order one.

[GEE TEE]

No cocking rod required because it's a half block design

The bolt pin cocks the hammer through a slot in the body

[Sniper Steve]

My friend just told me about this thread and I figured I would throw in my 2 cents because I have some strong opinions about this gun. Now first let me say, I have not even held one yet. But with that said, I not sure if I want to. 550 for a Mech gun, an Autococker? Really? Who thought up this price point? A gun that although has a great reputation for air efficiency, nice appearance and accuracy but also notorious for having problems and being a gun that the average person has a hard time working on. Several people mentioned the performance but 550 I will say it again, does it come with a guarantee not to miss? I love my Mags, and I love my mech mag with the ULE body and X-valve but I don't think I would pay that for a mag new. I say if you really want one wait a year and they will be down a couple hundred bucks. I would have also liked some new colors like the old cockers not just this gray color. Lastly I too am not too excited about a barrel kit that goes up in sizes of .005, might work some times depending on the paint but it also might be too big or small depending on the paint.

[splat15k]

Grab a set of calipers and move them .005 apart to get a feel for how small of an increment that is.

[manike]

As the person responsible for bringing an autococker back to the market, it's interesting to see people upset about a mech gun costing $550. Are you under the impression that it should be cheaper than an electro just because it's mech?

What if the mech gun has more parts (or in this case WAY, WAY, WAY more parts), costs more to make, and costs more to assemble and build than electro guns that are $1,299.95?

Bah, it's mech so it should be cheaper, right :)

Oh and fancy milling... to compare it to guns of old... but it's not selling at the prices of fancy guns of old... I remember when JUST the body of the KAPP flame cocker was going for more than this gun costs!

If you are just looking at this gun from a price point then you are missing the whole point of the "Resurrection", that's ok though because there are many other options for you to choose from. This gun certainly isn't for everybody, and it was never intended to be.

How many cockers can you buy new right now? One. How many electro options? Too many.

There is something that is just fun about autocockers. If you are the kind of person that knows and understands that and is willing to put up with their quirks then the Resurrection is for you. :)

p.s. I am quite entertained to see the old 'Mag V's 'Cocker debate raging again. It's been more than 10 years since we really saw that and it's fun to see it even be possible again :D

[manike]

Grab a set of calipers and move them .005 apart to get a feel for how small of an increment that is.

This requires a separate reply.

Thank you. :)

And then go and check the sizes and tolerances of many barrel bores and let me know the numbers you find...

And then go and check the inconsistencies in paint sizes and let's compare that to the 0.005 in bore size steps...

Oh and as for the size variation, I have seen paint that was loose in a .670 and tight in a .695 in the last year. It all depends on the brand and country of manufacture. Some Russian and Asian paint right now is HUGE, players at HB bought out CP's entire barrel stock of .696 barrels.

Paintball is a global game played in many different conditions with many factors that make the paint vary. With a closed bolt gun being able to underbore the paint is important so prevent roll outs. Hence the huge and extremely good barrel kit that comes with the Resurrection.

As for the Pro teams switching away from the same barrel system?

Funnily enough they just posted a recent picture of Drew Templeton from Infamous on Facebook today shooting a Vanquish. He is one of the most technically capable pro players. If not the most technically capable pro player. Guess which barrel he is using? Yep the original one I made for him which is identical to the kit that comes with the Resurrection.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1004577_10151661076644204_398642807_n.jpg

The move to the freak system, which quite simply is inferior in many ways, was purely due to sales and marketing decisions. I fought against it from a functionality point of view. I lost. I guess that kind of thing is part of the reason I chose to move on.

I believe the barrel kit with the Resurrection is one of the best kits you can get in paintball right now. It kills me that KEE wouldn't sell it on it's own. :(

[Loguzzzzzz]

I love the whole idea.

I am a machine guy, as a mechanical engineer I am amazed at machines. I love to watch a machine as it produces what ever it makes. I have sat and watched as an Italian machine had a single strand of 18k gold wire go in one end and woven gold rope chain came out the bottom. . . .simply amazing!

The Autococker is a machine, a contraption if you will. They bang and clack and then a little paintball leaves one end - I love' em! I may even have to get one!

At the moment I do get my Autococker "FIX" from the mid-blocked E2 blade Karnivor that I built for myself a few years ago, I only wish that I used it more but I say that about ALL my paintball guns (the by-product of being a gun whore;)).

manike is 100% correct in that a mechanical gun does not = cheaper. An Electro has many less moving parts and is much cheaper to produce. the PC board in an electro cost only a couple dollars to produce in the quantities that these companies are buying.

I am glad to see the Resurrection!

. . . . .but EVERYONE knows that Automags > Autocockers ! ! ! !
:D

[debruynda]

To be fair I don't think it is a matter of being upset at the cost. It's just that if you spend a lot of time on used gun forums and ebay you see what were once top end mech cockers (shocktech, eclipse, kapp, and p&p), in good to excellent condition, going for less than what a new Resurrection retails for. I am sure there are good reasons for this, you listed quite a few that should easily dismiss this remark, but it is quite simply a subtle form of sticker shock. I could not imagine a new "stock" cocker going for more than a hot-rodded used one because something about that reality does not seem justifiable in my own mind, and similarly from this thread the minds of others. Would I pay 550 for a resurrection...well if I had that money then yes because the marker is badace, but probably not before I spent a lot of time looking for an old school used one in great shape, with all the bells and whistles, going for considerably less or even slightly more.

My only question is why not a resurrection automag?:) That would be tie-ties.

[Spider-TW]

First, isn't "rational aesthetics" an oxymoron?

Also, we have to remember cocker fans like to hear "clack clack clack" instead of chuffs and pings. That's part of the cocker aesthetic. Halfblocks dampen that a lot (no back block), which I find sad, but I have to agree that a full bolt doesn't add anything when you have rod guides.

Fancy bodies aren't what they used to be in mass production. Now, they are just time and tool wear beyond the initial design effort. Still, fancy means extra and is certainly worth something when compared to simple stick of extruded aluminum [WGP].

I like to watch cockers playing, but I can never convince myself to go there. I've owned working cockers, but they never last a week before being pumped, and I have never actually used one on a field, which is pretty far down the list now that I think about it.

At least mags and cockers have an aesthetic. I just realized that I segregate all of my other electros into simple "spoolie" and "poppet" categories. My favorite non-mag electro is another one of Simon's projects in part, which is a Lasoya Promaster. You just can't please all of the people all of the time.

[Levi]

p.s. I am quite entertained to see the old 'Mag V's 'Cocker debate raging again. It's been more than 10 years since we really saw that and it's fun to see it even be possible again :D

I agree! It gives me that warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling!

Whether or not I end up with one of these, I'm happy that the autococker lives on and its not just fading away into paintball history.

[manike]

I could not imagine a new "stock" cocker going for more than a hot-rodded used one because something about that reality does not seem justifiable in my own mind, and similarly from this thread the minds of others.

And yet the new stock one, has more than the old hot rodded ones did when they cost $1500...


My only question is why not a resurrection automag?:) That would be tie-ties.

Would you pay $550 for it?

[BigEvil]

Would you pay $550 for it?

I think $550 would probably be a bargain for a high end custom Mag.


..and I don't think the name "resurrection" is appropriate.. Mags never died like cockers did :)

[manike]

I am a machine guy, as a mechanical engineer I am amazed at machines. I love to watch a machine as it produces what ever it makes. I have sat and watched as an Italian machine had a single strand of 18k gold wire go in one end and woven gold rope chain came out the bottom. . . .simply amazing!

The Autococker is a machine, a contraption if you will. They bang and clack and then a little paintball leaves one end - I love' em! I may even have to get one!

And you are the kind of person that this was made for. :) Although maybe with a little too much of a mag slant than the average Resurrection customer. :)

The Autococker IS the Harley Davidson of people. Sure there will be people that just want the Honda "Cheap electro" but there is something to the sound and mechanisms of an Autococker that is fun, and I don't want that to be lost.

[manike]

I'm happy that the autococker lives on and its not just fading away into paintball history.

Me too. That's why it was cool to get to bring it back to life. :)


I think $550 would probably be a bargain for a high end custom Mag.


..and I don't think the name "resurrection" is appropriate.. Mags never died like cockers did :)

I agree on both counts.

Would a new mag need to be "custom"? What makes it custom as compared to production?

Why would it be a bargain for a mag to be $550 but not a new autococker?

[GoatBoy]

First, isn't "rational aesthetics" an oxymoron?

I don't think so. I mean, I could delve into this, but things might get... "ugly".


I really wish there were an annual "mag vs cockers" event. There was almost one last year, but they fumbled the rules and made it no longer a "mag vs cocker" event.


I think the sizing of the barrel kit is fine -- the only two sizes I ever use are 0.680 and 0.685 anyways. No doubt I would love to have the extra length of those backs in a Freak system.

However, one reason I prefer the Freak is that I can consider the inserts to be disposable. If they get scuffed up or damaged, I just buy new ones. (Brass ones, at that. If we're going to talk about unquantifiable magic, which must always be the case when discussing autocockers, then I'm invoking the spirit of 'brass'.) If I scuff up or otherwise damage a back on one of these barrel kits? *shrug*

That, and I can swap the inserts with other Freak bored barrels, like on my pistols. Or *cough* on my Spyder.

If you're a "pro" player that drinks from the fountain of equipment and doesn't bother with other guns, that's fine, but for mere mortals, I think the "pro" argument is ... well, it's not relevant to me.


As far as a Resurrection Automag -- the price question can't be answered without knowing what the product would be in the first place. If you just took a classic and rebadged it -- no. If you were to make substantial improvements, possibly. Question can't be answered at this time.

[BigEvil]

Me too. That's why it was cool to get to bring it back to life. :)



I agree on both counts.

Would a new mag need to be "custom"? What makes it custom as compared to production?

Why would it be a bargain for a mag to be $550 but not a new autococker?

Until the pump crazy got going, you were able to get a really high end mech cocker on the cheap. Parts are still relatively inexpensive compared to mag stuff, probably due simply to the fact there there are just a lot more of them out there....

For example... I seriously don't think I could put a price on this gun...

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/MOTM%20Winners/2012-December-Open-BigE.jpg

**EDIT

For the price of just the E-90 grip frame I could almost buy a new Resurrection cocker

[manike]

However, one reason I prefer the Freak is that I can consider the inserts to be disposable. If they get scuffed up or damaged, I just buy new ones. (Brass ones, at that. If we're going to talk about unquantifiable magic, which must always be the case when discussing autocockers, then I'm invoking the spirit of 'brass'.) If I scuff up or otherwise damage a back on one of these barrel kits? *shrug*

The compatibility point I understand and agree that it's nice, but I am interested in how you consider the inserts to be disposable as a good thing.

Since I made them I never paid for inserts but even then it annoyed me when one would get dropped and ding up to be unusable, or get squashed out of round and be unusable. They are certainly worse in tolerance and straightness than normal barrel backs since it's simply harder to make them as well with such a thin wall. I have lost count of the amount of inserts I have dropped and damaged the lip to the point I wouldn't use them.

I have some barrels that are 15 years old and work just as well (or better) and don't get damaged as easily. If I had them in a set of complete bore sizes I would take them over almost all other barrels. :)

[manike]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/MOTM%20Winners/2012-December-Open-BigE.jpg

**EDIT

For the price of just the E-90 grip frame I could almost buy a new Resurrection cocker

There is no doubt that is a stunning mag, hence why it was my first pick at Tunaball :) but how many people would really pay $500 for that frame system? I can't say that I would.

[BigEvil]

There is no doubt that is a stunning mag, hence why it was my first pick at Tunaball :) but how many people would really pay $500 for that frame system? I can't say that I would.

Well, since I only made 10, the price was stupid high.. and I did get 9 buyers. It was something that was meant to be 'special', and there were no delusions about potentially getting a bargain :)

[debruynda]

Would you pay $550 for it?[/QUOTE]

Only if it has an Inception Designs logo on it.

[SoulCoffin]

Only if it has an Inception Designs logo on it.

brown noser :p

[debruynda]

brown noser :p

Thanks Dan.

[BigEvil]

Would you pay $550 for it?

Only if it has an Inception Designs logo on it.[/QUOTE]


Simon has the machines, I have the SW files... we could make that happen. :P

[steve_81]

I would pay $550 for it!

[knownothingmags]

i still need to buy one of those frames. :D

you should make me one.

i would pay 500$ for a frame if there are only small numbers made, such as 10. but that is just me. :headbang:

[NU_METAL]

Only if it has an Inception Designs logo on it.


Simon has the machines, I have the SW files... we could make that happen. :P[/QUOTE]

You guys can call it " BIG PUMP-IN " lol

[GoatBoy]

The compatibility point I understand and agree that it's nice, but I am interested in how you consider the inserts to be disposable as a good thing.

Since I made them I never paid for inserts but even then it annoyed me when one would get dropped and ding up to be unusable, or get squashed out of round and be unusable. They are certainly worse in tolerance and straightness than normal barrel backs since it's simply harder to make them as well with such a thin wall. I have lost count of the amount of inserts I have dropped and damaged the lip to the point I wouldn't use them.

I have some barrels that are 15 years old and work just as well (or better) and don't get damaged as easily. If I had them in a set of complete bore sizes I would take them over almost all other barrels. :)

Well that's the tradeoff isn't it?

I like them simply because they can be replaced. Even if you're not careless with your equipment, there is simply an extra level of comfort knowing that if you do mess up an insert, it's replaceable.

I kept my J&J ceramic flawless for more than a decade, but that was basically on a sealed marker -- no external dirt could get in. That was on purpose.

With the SA-17 spring feed, that changed. There's no way to keep dirt out. That was about the time I switched to the Freak system, and I've noticed light scoring on those inserts already, despite the fact that I keep my markers in otherwise immaculate condition. Would I like them to last forever? Sure. They're not going to though. Even the steel ones can get scratched up.

If you only use 2 bore sizes (.680 and .685) and put a premium on barrel back/insert surface quality, then a Freak system where you can replace individual inserts just seems to work out better.

Having 3 other sizes for the "pros" that travel the world is great... But 99% of the time I'm shooting Redemption at my home field, and the 3 backs I don't want to use can't replace the 1-2 scratched ones that I do. (The other 1% of the time I'm using the exact same 2 backs at visiting fields anyways.) I'm guessing that this situation applies to most "rec" players.

Nothing technically wrong with the barrels -- again, I have no complaint about the steps of the sizing. I just think the value presented by an entire kit which can't be taken a la carte strongly changes when you go from "pro" to "rec".

If I had my choice, if it had to be 5 backs, I'd take 2x .680, 2x .685, and the 5th one would itself be Freak bored as a backup/contingency.

[BigEvil]

Just to throw this out there also, I've shot one of these things at TB7... IF I hadnt blown a ton of cash on the event and had to take into consideration going away for vacation the week after, I would have bought it in a heart beat. Shoots awesome. Feels awesome. New style slider caught be by surprise but good luck short stroking it.

[Rosenberg]

And yet the new stock one, has more than the old hot rodded ones did when they cost $1500...



Would you pay $550 for it?

Yes, I would pay that for it. I plan on paying that much for the current resurrection. After all, people need to be honest with themselves. I have wasted money on other products that I would not consider half as well put together as this new marker.
my feelings are that I love the classic mech feel of a marker....whether it is a mag or a cocker. If the resurrection is an improvement on the older one, then what more can you ask for. My two cents are this....Thank you Simon for bringing something like this back to the market. Paintball, like any other sport sometimes needs to remember its roots. I applaud the idea of going back to mech markers.

[Nobody]

Would you pay $550 for it?

everyone has a different opinion and the only one opinion that matters is your own.

i've seen people pay twice that much for for a new gun from some company that just has you manually pump it instead of automation. hell, the Machine Vapor which is a copy of a Zodiak ZR1, but people would pay $1500 for a Vapor but not $900 for ZR1. go figure?

so the only thing that anyone to do is, you see one and ask to shoot it. only then you will know if you like it. then you will find a way to get one, whether new or used.

hell, 13 years ago, the $550 price would fall into a low to mid range in the price for a new cocker. the stock one would be right around $300.

[debruynda]

everyone has a different opinion and the only one opinion that matters is your own.

i've seen people pay twice that much for for a new gun from some company that just has you manually pump it instead of automation. hell, the Machine Vapor which is a copy of a Zodiak ZR1, but people would pay $1500 for a Vapor but not $900 for ZR1. go figure?

so the only thing that anyone to do is, you see one and ask to shoot it. only then you will know if you like it. then you will find a way to get one, whether new or used.

hell, 13 years ago, the $550 price would fall into a low to mid range in the price for a new cocker. the stock one would be right around $300.

I was thinking a lot about the price and part of my problem is I am still thinking in terms of the mid-nineties when you paid $350 for the stock cocker and then another 600 to get the thing so it would shoot:) Right off the get go you had to buy a new low pressure reg (Palmer Rock), Clippard Ram, Polished 4-way, Nelson Hammer and Spring Kit, RAT valve, 45 frame, beaver tail, new back block, secondary reg (Heavy a$$ Unireg). Then you had guys like Danny Love mill the crap out of it to lighten it up and make it look cool, throw in an anodizing job on top of that and you were easily in the 1500 range.

The Resurrection seems to have all the performance stuff already in it. So $550 does not seem bad at all for a Cocker that will shoot right off the first air-up.

[splat15k]

I have no qualms with the price... I'd rather pay $600 for a fullblock.

[blackdeath1k]

I was thinking a lot about the price and part of my problem is I am still thinking in terms of the mid-nineties when you paid $350 for the stock cocker and then another 600 to get the thing so it would shoot:) Right off the get go you had to buy a new low pressure reg (Palmer Rock), Clippard Ram, Polished 4-way, Nelson Hammer and Spring Kit, RAT valve, 45 frame, beaver tail, new back block, secondary reg (Heavy a$$ Unireg). Then you had guys like Danny Love mill the crap out of it to lighten it up and make it look cool, throw in an anodizing job on top of that and you were easily in the 1500 range.

The Resurrection seems to have all the performance stuff already in it. So $550 does not seem bad at all for a Cocker that will shoot right off the first air-up.

My bro in law has a 96 with everything you speak of except the milling and anno. Think he had 1300 in it back then. Still shoots like a dream though.

[debruynda]

My bro in law has a 96 with everything you speak of except the milling and anno. Think he had 1300 in it back then. Still shoots like a dream though.

I believe it. Cockers are like the high-speed pneumags and electros you see on this forum. They are hobby guns. Expensive hobby guns.

[blackdeath1k]

I believe it. Cockers are like the high-speed pneumags and electros you see on this forum. They are hobby guns. Expensive hobby guns.

I'd steal it from him and use it as much as my rt if I wasn't so lazy in maintaining it when something finally gives out. Thats the only reason I've never owned one. And why his is still in a box not getting used.

[ß.C.]

And yet the new stock one, has more than the old hot rodded ones did when they cost $1500...

Can someone please elaborate on why this is true? Is it mainly because of the new trigger and barrel kit? I am currently in the process of resurrecting (no pun intended) one of these "hot rodded" cocker. If I care about performance, should I just invest in a Resurrection?

[Nobody]

Can someone please elaborate on why this is true? Is it mainly because of the new trigger and barrel kit? I am currently in the process of resurrecting (no pun intended) one of these "hot rodded" cocker. If I care about performance, should I just invest in a Resurrection?

back when there where $1500+ cockers, places had to buy a body slug directly from WGP, which was not cheap. you where looking at some $300 for just a body. now, you want something special, so that stock body is going to get milled, the more meat milled off, the higher the costs. these didn't always come with back blocks, verts, or front blocks. sometimes these where made by the shop. then add in the new penumatics, or just better pneumatics than what was offered from WGP. different HPR, different bolts, different valve, different hammer, worked 45 frames(set screws to take out the slop, polishing of the trigger plate and sear, roller sears(these when new where a $50 upgrade in itself) AND add in what each shop charged for putting this all together(some shops like P&P, Shocktech, Boston, even Palmers you paid a lot for their name and their work). mix that together when you could spend $600 on anno for one gun alone, and you will get numbers approaching stupid.

i know a guy that has a brand new Boston Twister WITH a reflex kit, basically a supercharged unicorn. he has the original receipt where it shows that he spent nearly $2400 for that gun. granted, everything is matching on the anno, but its not hard to climb the price chart when you are changing nearly every part.

remember the Resurrection is a gun that is mass produced. it is purpose built. it has to share the same platform as the sniper, which helps keep the cost down. Kee also owns all of or has access to all of WGP's old stock so the pneumatics and could be NOS. hell, the 09 SFL when it was rereleased was still $700 and that was using old parts with no anno changes.

[GoatBoy]

Can someone please elaborate on why this is true? Is it mainly because of the new trigger and barrel kit? I am currently in the process of resurrecting (no pun intended) one of these "hot rodded" cocker.

Sure, I can cut and paste.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/empire/234652-empire-resurrection-autococker-review.html

Snappy trigger and generally smooth (not glass but much better that stock WGP) conservative timing
pneumatics are interchangeable with old AC parts (not that you need to)
LPR is a AKA SMC-III (IMO the best LPR out)
Planet Eclipse detents
ST Bomb like 3way. Very smooth
Ram is serviceable without removing it from the front block
All parts were not death Loctited on (thanks Empire)
Ram and 3way lock screws
Ram Shaft has wrench flats (no more plier marks)
3way shaft is one piece
bolt is a three oring style
SMALL to large bore barrel kit (the large bore will be freak milled)
Timed out of the box, just add tank hopper and fun.
HPR is a removable and replaceable but why would you........
Bleeding On/Off
Finish dust is just right and good color match between parts (Black version)
Milling is nice except one part.......see cons
Hogue style bubble grips are good for big hands
Trigger shoe is large and accommodation for gloved hands

He missed the clamping feedneck and Spyder valve.

There you go, have fun.




If I care about performance

I lol'ed.

[debruynda]

I'd steal it from him and use it as much as my rt if I wasn't so lazy in maintaining it when something finally gives out. Thats the only reason I've never owned one. And why his is still in a box not getting used.

I think one of the common misconceptions about cockers is that they are high maintenance. Sure, the closer you get it to its performance limits the more likely you are to have problems. However, the tech on my old team used to set it at the beginning of the season and the only problem I would ever encounter was a blown low pressure hose and even that was rare. People got into problems when they would mess around with the timing which was easy to throw off when you figure you have to have the right cocking rod length, right timing rod length so the three way will function and not leak, correct hammer and valve spring tension, correct sear return tension, correct hammer lug depth...any one of those things being out of balance meant your cocker might not function correctly. The last sentence seems to contradict my claim but I meant it only as an illustration that once those aspects are set, and someone who is not a seasoned cocker tech like me would just leave them alone, the reliability and consistency was never an issue. My old cocker used to shoot like a dream but that is because I was disciplined enough not to mess with it or if I wanted to upgrade one of the aspects listed above I let a tech do it for me.

[KurtPB]

Alright, not going to read through 2 or 3 pages of people talking about aesthetics. Bought mine Friday, used it at the BT vs Dye here at CPX and it has shot AWESOME. Have two other folks considering it. Used the .080 just as I do on my Sniper. Haven't short stroked at all, along with a couple of the others who have shot it. Haven't shot enough to give an idea on efficiency but better than an 'mag by far. Great ergonomics. Great trigger, I'm a 'cocker noob and was able to shoot great with it.

People try to compare the price of a NEW Resurrection to a USED ULE Mag. Let's not forget the ULE Mags never came with 5 piece barrel kits, on/off ASA's or clamping feednecks. Not to mention, in 'cocker terms, you have the mid block, the delrin sled, the awesome slide trigger thanks to Simon, being able to adjust from both sides. Not sure what more you could want.

[ß.C.]

@ Nobody - Thanks for the info.

@Goatboy - God forbid someone tries to ask for information on the internet. For your information I already knew everything you posted, but a "hot rodded" cocker can do more less everything you listed besides having the new frame and barrel. Maybe I wanted some insight from owners who might have noticed something different about the design in general. Do everyone a favor and stop being a jerk.

[GoatBoy]

@ Nobody - Thanks for the info.

@Goatboy - God forbid someone tries to ask for information on the internet. For your information I already knew everything you posted, but a "hot rodded" cocker can do more less everything you listed besides having the new frame and barrel. Maybe I wanted some insight from owners who might have noticed something different about the design in general. Do everyone a favor and stop being a jerk.

That's one of the (many) things I don't miss from the old days -- people running around calling their markers "tricked out". In this case, you've swapped for "hot rodded."

That literally means nothing, and when you ask to compare a Resurrection against your "hot rodded" cocker, how is anyone suppose to possibly know what is in your "hot rodded" cocker to make any sort of sensible comparison?

[ß.C.]

That's one of the (many) things I don't miss from the old days -- people running around calling their markers "tricked out". In this case, you've swapped for "hot rodded."

That literally means nothing, and when you ask to compare a Resurrection against your "hot rodded" cocker, how is anyone suppose to possibly know what is in your "hot rodded" cocker to make any sort of sensible comparison?

I used the terminology I did to remain consistent with what was used in previous discussion. In this case it means an autococker costing around $1500. The term "hot rodded" was used earlier, but you didn't feel the need to be obnoxious about it then, so I'm not sure that's what truly provoked your less than considerate response. If I had $1500 to pour into an autococker (even back in the early 2000s) I would expect it to have all the bells and whistles. I think that's a fairly reasonable assumption, although I will admit there are ways to interpret the information given differently. That being said, even if there was any obscurity in the way I phrased my question, it doesn't exonerate your antagonistic behavior.

[debruynda]

I used the terminology I did to remain consistent with what was used in previous discussion. In this case it means an autococker costing around $1500. The term "hot rodded" was used earlier, but you didn't feel the need to be obnoxious about it then, so I'm not sure that's what truly provoked your less than considerate response. If I had $1500 to pour into an autococker (even back in the early 2000s) I would expect it to have all the bells and whistles. I think that's a fairly reasonable assumption, although I will admit there are ways to interpret the information given differently. That being said, even if there was any obscurity in the way I phrased my question, it doesn't exonerate your antagonistic behavior.


You said bells and whistles, just so I'm clear can I infer that those terms together mean the same as hot-rodded, tricked-out, maxed-out, pimped-out, fully-loaded, bad-ace, or f@#k-all:)

Such verbiage can be viewed as akin to trade language in any other realm and is used for the sake of brevity by sensible people all the time:) For instance, Simon knew exactly what the term meant and didn't even flinch before saying that the Resurrection had more than a fully-loaded cocker when such language was used initially.

[going_home]

That being said, even if there was any obscurity in the way I phrased my question, it doesn't exonerate your antagonistic behavior.


http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/internet.jpg







:ninja:

[debruynda]

Well said Allen.

[blackdeath1k]

I think one of the common misconceptions about cockers is that they are high maintenance. Sure, the closer you get it to its performance limits the more likely you are to have problems. However, the tech on my old team used to set it at the beginning of the season and the only problem I would ever encounter was a blown low pressure hose and even that was rare. People got into problems when they would mess around with the timing which was easy to throw off when you figure you have to have the right cocking rod length, right timing rod length so the three way will function and not leak, correct hammer and valve spring tension, correct sear return tension, correct hammer lug depth...any one of those things being out of balance meant your cocker might not function correctly. The last sentence seems to contradict my claim but I meant it only as an illustration that once those aspects are set, and someone who is not a seasoned cocker tech like me would just leave them alone, the reliability and consistency was never an issue. My old cocker used to shoot like a dream but that is because I was disciplined enough not to mess with it or if I wanted to upgrade one of the aspects listed above I let a tech do it for me.


Oh I know that if you leave them alone once set up they are fine for quite a while. My deal is. Since I make a career out of industrial maintenance. I have an issue paying anyone to do stuff I can do myself. From everything I've ever seen with cockers. They are not that big of a deal. But then again. I don't want to ever have to work on my gun. And the cocker generally speaking needs more work than my RT. Heck. I don't want a level X bolt simply because for no more paint than I chop its not worth the added care to keep it proper. I am considering a ULT trigger. But I'd have to give Luke some milling business first. That said. I still fall back with. As much as I love autocockers. I do not want to have to do anything more than oiling my gun.

[brokeass_baller]

I've never been much of an Autococker guy, but I got to shoot the Resurrection at my local proshop, and holy mother of Jesus is it smooth! The milling looks real nice in person, too. The trigger on it is spectacular. I've never used a slider that was so smooth, stock. And it's so short that you can get a good rhythm going without much worry of short stroking.

I like it. I want one.

[Sniper Steve]

For those of you that have said you want one or for those of you that say the price is not too high, this one just sold on ebay for a really low price compared to what they go for new.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181161361445?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[debruynda]

For those of you that have said you want one or for those of you that say the price is not too high, this one just sold on ebay for a really low price compared to what they go for new.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181161361445?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Someone got real lucky:)

[GoatBoy]

I used the terminology I did to remain consistent with what was used in previous discussion. In this case it means an autococker costing around $1500. The term "hot rodded" was used earlier, but you didn't feel the need to be obnoxious about it then, so I'm not sure that's what truly provoked your less than considerate response. If I had $1500 to pour into an autococker (even back in the early 2000s) I would expect it to have all the bells and whistles. I think that's a fairly reasonable assumption, although I will admit there are ways to interpret the information given differently. That being said, even if there was any obscurity in the way I phrased my question, it doesn't exonerate your antagonistic behavior.

I have a longer and more entertaining response, but I want to try something different out.

How would you like us to answer your question, as posed? Simply craft the form of the response, and we can try to fill in the details.

[KurtPB]

This thread is out of hand.

[GEE TEE]

I'll form my own opinions once I've shot one for the first time

Hopefully that will be this Saturday

Pity to see good treads like this degenerate into a personal slanging match

[debruynda]

I have a longer and more entertaining response, but I want to try something different out.

How would you like us to answer your question, as posed? Simply craft the form of the response, and we can try to fill in the details.

Who is this "us" and "we" you refer to?

[Syko89]

Can this use the eblade trigger frames?

[KurtPB]

I think the issue you'd run into would be the frame mounting differently than most 'cockers. I know when the snipers were having pneu's put on them, someone had to use an old shocktech slider for it to work, not something like a WGP hinge or anything. Although, I know Docfire has put an aftermarket hinge on his Resurrection, can't remember the brand AND this is AO where guys put wonky parts on their mags so why not a Resurrection? A local friend of mine said he has an eblade kit NIB and he's tempting with it... we shall see.

[Rosenberg]

So, I now own the Resurrection. My opinion of it....Yup, it is bad ace.
Snappy and smooth trigger.
love all the small, but important, extras (feedneck, on/off asa, etc.).
was shooting great right out of the box.
barrel kit is fine. for all those complaining about bore sizes...find me another marker at this price that comes with a kit like this.
top end parts were used to put this together.
the milling looks great in person.
I could go on forever with the plus sides of this marker

Thanks again for bringing back some old school. Now, someone needs to bring back an updated automag.
I think Simon and TK should get on that. I mean, between the two of them...it should only take an afternoon to fully design it.

[Nobody]

you do realize that the mini/axe is a direct extension of the mag. Simon asked to use the blow forward system from TK and updated it and what we have now is that direct descendent of that work.

[cockerpunk]

you do realize that the mini/axe is a direct extension of the mag. Simon asked to use the blow forward system from TK and updated it and what we have now is that direct descendent of that work.

thats not really true, the mini/axe is a JCS king cobra, a design that came out of the far east. the only thing it really shares in function with an automag is the blow forward bit.

if you really want to see a "modern" mag look no farther then then the ICD freestyle:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/freestyle.gif

[manike]

you do realize that the mini/axe is a direct extension of the mag. Simon asked to use the blow forward system from TK and updated it and what we have now is that direct descendent of that work.

Not sure where you got that, but it's not true. As Gordon points out the Mini was a development from the King Cobra.

Very glad more and more people are getting the Resurrection and enjoying it. :)

[OPBN]

I've read that the Tippmann Phenom was based on the AGD system with permission. Maybe that's the confusion? That could be BS as well though.

[manike]

I've read that the Tippmann Phenom was based on the AGD system with permission. Maybe that's the confusion? That could be BS as well though.

I asked Tom about that specifically at Tunaball and he said it wasn't true.

[OPBN]

I asked Tom about that specifically at Tunaball and he said it wasn't true.

Non disclosure clause? :D

[Nobody]

Not sure where you got that, but it's not true. As Gordon points out the Mini was a development from the King Cobra.

Very glad more and more people are getting the Resurrection and enjoying it. :)

as much as i want to just say i "heard it from 'Them'", it stemmed from talking to a couple of people about an MQ Mag and they had said a Mini/Axe was just about that. so when the man comes and says it so, to people the rumors down, we are all the wiser fot it.

[splat15k]

I asked Tom about that specifically at Tunaball and he said it wasn't true.

What about Tiberius? Is that rumor true?

I love having Simon around to clear these things up! :cheers:

[Nobody]

thats not really true, the mini/axe is a JCS king cobra, a design that came out of the far east. the only thing it really shares in function with an automag is the blow forward bit.

if you really want to see a "modern" mag look no farther then then the ICD freestyle:

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/freestyle.gif

the early FS series yes, but the later bolt systems, like the HR1 and the FS8 slider bolt, where different enough to not be that.

now, i had missed the King Cobra. now we are all better for it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbxXm9K7O88

[manike]

What about Tiberius? Is that rumor true?

I love having Simon around to clear these things up! :cheers:

Not sure which rumour you mean? I do not know for certain but I believe it was designed with the intent that it wouldn't infringe the AGD patents.


the early FS series yes, but the later bolt systems, like the HR1 and the FS8 slider bolt, where different enough to not be that.

now, i had missed the King Cobra. now we are all better for it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbxXm9K7O88

Brings back memories. That gun shot great, but the packaging and styling is... well... not sure what to say ;), but you can see how different it ended up when the concept became the Mini and then the Axe.

Ultimately most of us are building on the shoulders of giants. That's always the development process. Just some of us keep trying to innovate and add to the pool. Although with that said it is nice to do a retro project every now and then like the Resurrection (even so we tried to innovate in some areas and make it the best we could).

Currently I have some more retro and some more innovative projects in the works. Not sure what will drop first :D

[sillypookie]

Can this use the eblade trigger frames?

I believe Docfire at Customcockers put one on his Ressurection... though I'd have to go search.