ULT = sear not catching [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

Mic0157

07-19-2013, 07:23 AM

Okay forum correct me if I'm wrong. I have an AM with ULE / X-Valve / Lvl 10 / intelliframe and just dropped a ULT trigger in and now the sear won't consistently reset. I've read up on this and it appears I need to remove a shim or two? Does that sound right?

Next question, I want to shorten the creep on the trigger pull. From what I've read you can't just go twisting the trigger rod since he on / off valve may or may not catch. Again, is that correct?

Last one, on the tip of the Lvl 10 is that little black rubber cushion. Well mine just fell off. I had an extra and slipped it in but it fell right out. Will superglue hold that in? Too small for duct tape. ;)

This is my first AM so I'm being cautious with adjusting it.

OPBN

07-19-2013, 07:41 AM

Okay forum correct me if I'm wrong. I have an AM with ULE / X-Valve / Lvl 10 / intelliframe and just dropped a ULT trigger in and now the sear won't consistently reset. I've read up on this and it appears I need to remove a shim or two? Does that sound right? Start tuning the ULT by removing all of the shims. Add back in one at a time to adjust it to your liking.

Next question, I want to shorten the creep on the trigger pull. From what I've read you can't just go twisting the trigger rod since he on / off valve may or may not catch. Again, is that correct? Sear rod should sit about a credit cards thickness from the back of the trigger when aired up. IIRC, there is an exact measurement in the Tolerances thread. You may have to adjust this after adding/removing shims from the ULT.

Last one, on the tip of the Lvl 10 is that little black rubber cushion. Well mine just fell off. I had an extra and slipped it in but it fell right out. Will superglue hold that in? Too small for duct tape. ;)Yes, it has to be glued on. Super Glue will work, but make sure you clean any residue off the bolt before attempting to glue it on. Any oil or bits of the previous foamy can cause the bond to be weak.

This is my first AM so I'm being cautious with adjusting it. Good luck.

nak81783

07-19-2013, 07:44 AM

Is the trigger limp, or are you pulling against some amount of pressure?

What input pressure are you running? Is it going directly to the valve or through any other form of regulation/restriction?

You want a credit card's thickness gas between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when the marker is pressurized. If you have that, leave it. If you don't, post back, and we can walk you through the adjustment.

I've had good luck with Loctite Ultra Gel. It is a rubber toughened CA glue. It's good for impact resistance, and I can find it a lot easier/cheaper than some of the other recommended glues (IC-2000, LocTite 380). Be sure to clean the surfaces, scuff them up a little, and clean up any squeeze out when you press the parts together.

You may also want to glue your bumper to the valve to prolong its life.

Edit: Looks like OPBN beat me to it.

-Nathan

OPBN

07-19-2013, 07:57 AM

Edit: Looks like OPBN beat me to it.
-Nathan

Just call me QuickDraw! :shooting:

Mic0157

07-19-2013, 08:07 AM

OPBN

07-19-2013, 09:24 AM

Sounds like I'm on the right path. The ULT and shims aspect threw me off. I'm headed out with it tomorrow and can deal with it between games. With the addition of the ULT do I need to worry about adjustments to the LVL 10 ( shims and such)?

Not unless it's giving you issues. IIRC, the L10 manual says to fire off about 1k shots after installing to get it broken in properly and then retune if necessary. Is this a new marker/valve? or used?

nak81783

07-19-2013, 09:26 AM

Follow post #2168 in the linked thread below to tune your Level 10. The printed and CD instructions are obsolete. Most setups don't require shims.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?43538-**-Official-Level-10-Problems-Thread-**/page73

To answer your question, theoretically, switching to a ULT shouldn't affect the Level 10 as the dump chamber still sees the same pressure regardless of on/off type.

Edit: Can't type fast enough on iPhone to beat QuickDraw.

-Nathan

OPBN

07-19-2013, 10:10 AM

Foll
Edit: Can't type fast enough on iPhone to beat QuickDraw.

-Nathan
How long does it take to type" that's what she said"?

Mic0157

07-19-2013, 12:03 PM

nak81783

07-19-2013, 12:31 PM

Eh, if you have a preset tank, and it was running the std on/off OK, it's probably not the issue. I was more concerned with if the issue is sporadic (chuff, chuff, shoot, chuff, shoot) or continuous once it happens (shoot, shoot, chuff, chuff, chuff x infinity). Also, I was more concerned with a limp trigger or some resistance on the trigger (may be hard to tell with a ULT) when the issue is present. And if "chuff" should be replaced with "nothing".

Hopefully, some simple tuning will solve the issue. If not, you know where we're at.

-Nathan

Spider-TW

07-19-2013, 12:39 PM

I recently acquired the marker, and assume most items to have been worn in.

Hey, I saw somplace elses that simply lubing the on/off might be the solution too. Either way, you've given me a couple of things to look at.

And this is all coming from a tank putting out an unknown pressure directly into the valve. I know, high pressure = better for these markers, but I don't know how to test that. Ideas?

Definitely approach all of the trouble shooting tips with the understanding that mags like oil. If you haven't shot 3-4 drops of oil through the ASA (without the barrel) yet, that is a better start.

air + oil = happy-mag

Mic0157

07-20-2013, 12:19 PM

Okay I got the sear catching but it's on full auto when I pull the trigger? Ideas?

Laku

07-20-2013, 12:26 PM

Okay I got the sear catching but it's on full auto when I pull the trigger? Ideas?

Sounds like too short on/off pin or badly adjusted sear.

Mic0157

07-20-2013, 07:21 PM

What's odd is that I have it back to its original configuration. I took the new stuff out and put the old stuff in and it's still acting up. Could replacing some of the o-rings in the valve have any affect? And I oiled the on/off before use.

I'm perplexed.

mike780

07-20-2013, 07:44 PM

Are both on-off top o-rings in there?

Mic0157

07-20-2013, 08:08 PM

Are both on-off top o-rings in there?

There are the 2 rings on the on/off but is there supposed to be more on top of the on/off when you push it into place?

That might be a problem.

nak81783

07-20-2013, 08:30 PM

To get your std on/off working right, it should look like the diagram in the manual linked below. I like this one, because it shows a Level 7 and Level 10 setup. Scroll down a ways in the manual to get to the diagram.

http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/downloads/RT-ULE.Tac-One.Manual.pdf

If the link doesn't work, it's the RT ULE manual on airgun.com>tech support>manuals and diagrams

It's been years since I had a ULT, but the only difference from a RT on/off that I remember is a smaller internal shaft oring, and you can use shims in between the halves to adjust it, as OPBN recommended earlier. If the ULT goes full auto, you need to remove shims. Not sure why your RT on/off would go full auto, unless it's not assembled per the diagram linked above or there are bad orings on it.

-Nathan

mike780

07-20-2013, 08:33 PM

Never mind- I blanked out for a second and was thinking RT on/off... There should just be the three o-rings visible on your ULT when it's assembled- one on each half and one at the top of the pin (and when you take the halves apart a fourth, tiny o-ring inside around the pin).

Mic0157

07-21-2013, 04:53 PM

Okay, still having problems. Question: I've read 2 places that there are supposed to be 2 o-rings that sit on top of the on / off. Are these two o-rings different than the 2 that come on the on / off valve (the diagram in the manual does not show any on top of the on/off) ? I have a new x-valve parts kit and if I need to put some in there, which ones? I have 2 on/off valves (new and old) and both have the same problem.

I mean I kinda like an automatic mag, but it catches some and would give away my position.

nak81783

07-21-2013, 06:59 PM

Disregard my statement about the ULT being the same as the RT on/off. I apologize. I shouldn't have commented, since I haven't had one in years.

The RT on/off should have two orings at the top, as in the diagram.

mike780's post jogged my memory, and I found some pics that appear to confirm it, although they were blurry pics. It looks like The ULT should have one oring snapped around the bottom half, one oring in between the halves around the pin shaft, one oring snapped around the top half, and one oring sitting in a counterbore at the top. Although I'd like others to confirm this, trying this setup, even if wrong, shouldn't hurt anything, especially since you're already having issues.

"Top" can be relative to how you are holding the valve. However, in Mag World, "top" means the orings go in the hole first, before the brass.

-Nathan

Mic0157

07-22-2013, 08:35 AM

Another thought. I've read that mags like high pressure. Is it possible that my tank isn't putting out enough pressure to make the on/off cycle as it should? I've had a couple of cases where upon trying to remove the reg and the on/off pin is sticking out just enough to keep the reg from sliding back. Almost like there is resistance or friction between the pin and one of those tiny little o-rings. So more pressure could overcome the friction?? I'm still troubleshooting.

nak81783

07-22-2013, 09:51 AM

As I stated earlier, if your tank ran the RT before, it's probably not the issue. However, to check the output, you'll need a gage (0-1200 or 1500 psi should work). Thread the gage into one of your ASA output ports, and gas up like you normally would. Simply read the gage. You'll need thread sealant of some sort. I use Teflon tape.

It's normal for the pin to be sticking out when you degas. Always pull the trigger after removing air source. This will push the pin back up, so the valve will slide out.

It might be time to post pictures. Lay everything out as you have it currently set up. Try to make the picture's layout look like how AGD lays it out in the diagrams, so we can tell how you have everything installed.

-Nathan

Mic0157

07-22-2013, 10:10 AM

I'll get pictures up this evening.

Mic0157

07-22-2013, 09:10 PM

Okay let's try this. http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/mic0157/Automag/image_zpsa5dba888.jpg

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/mic0157/Automag/image_zps80e671ef.jpg

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/mic0157/Automag/image_zps99810f32.jpg

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/mic0157/Automag/image_zpsd9bcc92b.jpg

Mic0157

07-22-2013, 09:18 PM

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/mic0157/Automag/image_zpsb469e3f0.jpg

need4reebs

07-22-2013, 10:14 PM

looks like tha edge of your sear is a lil rounded...and is probably the reason the sear is not catching the bolt? do you have another sear?

nak81783

07-23-2013, 10:13 AM

1. Did you ever confirm the credit card thickness gap between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when the marker is pressurized?

2. Is the rail bushing in place? This is a brass cylinder that press fits into the back of the rail that the field strip screw goes through.

3. Does it go full auto when you hold the trigger back FIRMLY? Does this happen with the RT on/off and the ULT on/off?

4. The rounded sear could be an issue of its own, but if it's going full auto with the trigger firmly held back, doesn't that suggest something else is goin on?

Let's separate the assembly process by on/off type.

ULT on/off:
1. Look into the on/off hole on the valve with a flashlight. Make sure there are no orings at the bottom of the hole.

2. Slide in the assembly as you have it pictured. Small oring in external counterbore at top of ULT. Larger oring snapped around top of ULT. Small oring around the shaft inside the ULT. No shims. Larger oring snapped around the bottom of the ULT. Thread together, and install.

3. Adjust with shims as OPBN stated earlier.

4. Report back with any issues specific to the ULT.

The ULT installation process is different than what is seen in the previously linked diagram.

RT on/off:
1. Look into the on/off hole on the valve with a flashlight. Make sure there are no orings at the bottom of the hole.

2. Install a larger oring into the bottom of the on/off hole in the valve. This oring should fit snugly against the diameter of the on/off hole.

3. Install a smaller oring into the bottom of the on/off hole in the valve. This oring should fit snugly against the inner diameter of the oring you installed in step 2.

4. Make sure there is a smaller oring inside the on/off around the pin shaft.

5. Make sure there is an oring snapped around the bottom half of the on/off.

6. Thread halves together. Insert pin. Install assembly into on/off hole in the valve.

7. Report back with any issues specific to the RT on/off

The RT on/off installation process should resemble what is seen in the previously linked diagram.

I hope this doesn't come off as me talking down to you, but I just want to be absolutely clear of what is required. I also want to separate the issues with the different on/off's, because I'm having a little difficulty following your replies.

Good luck.

-Nathan

OPBN

07-23-2013, 11:06 AM

1. Did you ever confirm the credit card thickness gap between the back of the trigger and the trigger rod when the marker is pressurized?

Also keep in mind that as you are adding/removing shims in the ULT, you may have to readjust the sear rod. Same goes with changing the on/offs. After any fiddling with the odn/offs, check the gap to insure it isnt too much or too little. The sear rod should not rest again the back of the tirgger when aired up. Nor should it be too far back.

It's always a good think to know the output pressure on your tank reg. What type is it? A pic of it as well may help. IIRC, werent some of these color coded?

Make sure everything is oiled. Also, the field strip screw should only be finger tight. I have a couple of Mags where I have to air up upon assembly and adjust them so that they are correctly tightened. Too loose can often be as bad as too tight.

Nathan has mentioned the O-rings inside the on/off. To be honest, I have never actually had to take an on/off apart other than a ULT to change shims. If the RT worked before, it should be ok still, but if it makes you feel better check them.

Make sure everything is oiled.

nak81783

07-23-2013, 11:46 AM

Also keep in mind that as you are adding/removing shims in the ULT, you may have to readjust the sear rod. Same goes with changing the on/offs. After any fiddling with the odn/offs, check the gap to insure it isnt too much or too little.

I've often wondered about this. Let's take a little tangent while we wait for the OP to reply.

First, I agree the gap has to be there, or the marker may not complete a full cycle. However, since the chamber is pressurized (pushing on the top of the pin), and the bottom of the pin is at ambient pressure, wouldn't the pin continue to push down until it hit a positive stop (back of sear) regardless of on/off type? If so, I would argue that trigger rod adjustment is more to accommodate the body/rail/trigger frame stack up than a different on/off type.

I am assuming that once the marker is pressurized, the brass and oring components of the on/off do not float due to the comstant pressure at the top of the on/off. In other words the on/off stays seated against the bottom of the body ID.

Let me know if I'm missing something.

The only time I've ever adjusted my trigger rod was on my X-Mag. I set the e-mode trigger how I wanted it, but then the trigger rod was hitting the back of it. I had to shorten it .010 or 015" to stop that from happening. It still shoots fine in mech and hybrid modes.

-Nathan

need4reebs

07-23-2013, 12:14 PM

Okay I got the sear catching but it's on full auto when I pull the trigger? Ideas?

check your reg pin assembly...teflon tape, dirt, or just bad o-rings can cause your mag mag to rapid fire/go full auto as well.

OPBN

07-23-2013, 12:24 PM

I've often wondered about this. Let's take a little tangent while we wait for the OP to reply.

First, I agree the gap has to be there, or the marker may not complete a full cycle. However, since the chamber is pressurized (pushing on the top of the pin), and the bottom of the pin is at ambient pressure, wouldn't the pin continue to push down until it hit a positive stop (back of sear) regardless of on/off type? If so, I would argue that trigger rod adjustment is more to accommodate the body/rail/trigger frame stack up than a different on/off type.

My understanding is if the sear rod hits the back of the trigger it is essentially keeping the front of the sear from catching the bolt. Once the front of the sear catches/hits the bolt, than the sear rod stops moving forward. If it's too far back, the trigger cannot push it far enough back/up for the sear to fully engage the on/off pin. The on/off pin stops when the sear stops, which stops when it hits the bolt.

With a ULT, as you add shims it pushes the bottom of the on/off down, pushing the back of the sear down and the trigger rod forward. So as you add shims, you have to turn the sear rod in/away from the trigger to maintain the gap.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 01:02 PM

Okay. Wow that's alot of information. Let's address the sear rod, there is at least a CC gap back there. As for the ULT, there are no o-rigs loose above the on/off assembly; just the recessed o-ring that came with the on/off. The on/off is assembled as directed with no shims and I'm keeping it oiled.

Now one new development, the comment regarding the regulator pin assembly, I did open that up and change a few o-ring that looked hard so ill get back into that tonight and see if anything is amiss.

Regarding the sear, I cannot tell if that is the problem. Looks good to me, but what do I know.

I will say that if the sear is not catching, then the on/off may not be pushing far enough on the back of the sear. so my next line of thinking would be to add shims giving the on/off pin greater distance to travel and thus striking the back of the sear with greater force pushing the front of he sear up. Does that make sense?

Oh and thanks everybody for helping me with this.

nak81783

07-23-2013, 02:27 PM

2. Is the rail bushing in place? This is a brass cylinder that press fits into the back of the rail that the field strip screw goes through.

3. Does it go full auto when you hold the trigger back FIRMLY? Does this happen with the RT on/off and the ULT on/off?

FYI, on the reg pin assembly, there are two 006 urethane orings separated by a single turn split Teflon washer. That washer should have the split (many think it's a crack), and it should be hard (harder than the orings anyway).

Where are you located?

-Nathan

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 02:42 PM

2. Yes it's there
3. It goes fires twice with a light tap and full auto when holding trigger down ( it does not take alot of pressures to make it go full auto).

I am now suspecting the reg pin is not reassembled correctly. I want to look at it closely this evening and see if it is assembled as listed above.

West chicago area.

OPBN

07-23-2013, 03:06 PM

I will say that if the sear is not catching, then the on/off may not be pushing far enough on the back of the sear. so my next line of thinking would be to add shims giving the on/off pin greater distance to travel and thus striking the back of the sear with greater force pushing the front of he sear up. Does that make sense?
No. Regardless of the length of the pin, the pressure behind it should cause it to hit the sear with the same force regardless. With an Xvalve, there is direct full tank pressure behind it. Shimming will not affect the force with which the pin hits the sear.

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 04:01 PM

No. Regardless of the length of the pin, the pressure behind it should cause it to hit the sear with the same force regardless. With an Xvalve, there is direct full tank pressure behind it. Shimming will not affect the force with which the pin hits the sear.

That takes me back to tank pressure. I'll see if I can pickup a gauge for the asa tomorrow.

athomas

07-23-2013, 06:38 PM

The ULT shims affect the "timing" of the mag and shouldn't affect the trigger rod length. The shims in the ULT push to on-off top and therefore the top oring farther away from the rest of the assembly. This means the pin doesn't have to travel as far to open and release air into the front chamber. It is critical to make sure the sear is rotated far enough forward to catch the bolt before the on-off pin clears the sealing edge of the top oring in the on-off assembly. Thus, it is essential that you don't install too many shims in the ULT or the on-off will open too soon and cause air entering the chamber to halt the reset action of the bolt. It can also cause the bolt to shoot forward again causing a full auto action if enough air gets in fast enough.

The sear in its fully reset forward position is not affected by the location of the top section and is only fully reset when it rests against the bolt spring or a stopper in the rail. You adjust the length of the trigger rod to allow the trigger to move the sear within this range. When the sear is fully rotated forward, hold the trigger against the safety and adjust the trigger rod so that is almost hits the back of the trigger. This will ensure that the sear can always rotate forward to allow a proper unimpeded reset. Yes, the sear will allow the on-off to open before that, but you don't want to limit the forward movement or you will limit the life expectancy of your sear and bolt.

OPBN

07-23-2013, 08:29 PM

I stand corrected. I swear when I was shimming my ULT that it seemed like I was having to adjust the sear rod when I was putting in/taking out shims. The more I think about though, it doesn't make sense to have to.

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 08:40 PM

Okay I tore it all apart and I reassembled it correctly. Exactly like the blown up diagram. I cannot see why the sear isn't catching. So, I'll be going to the store tomorrow to see about a HP reg or simply having the, fix it. It's killing me right now.

It worked fine, I replaced old seals and dropped in a ULT which after further review, I may have already had in it. So now were looking into tanks and output. Grumble.

Unless there are any other ideas?

nak81783

07-23-2013, 08:41 PM

Oh, sure. Listen to athomas but not me. He did put it a little more eloquently though, didn't he?

Enough of my hijack. Let's get the OP's Mag working!

How's that reg pin assembly looking?

-Nathan

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 08:45 PM

Looked exactly like the diagram. Split ring and all. Nothing was changed on it and its clean. Hmm... Air restriction up stream??? Checking on the now

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 08:52 PM

Reg pin

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b504/mic0157/Automag/image_zps90db7e0b.jpg

Anything in the lvl 10 that could cause this?

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 09:05 PM

Is there supposed to be any movement in the pin that holds the sear in place? Not based up, I can see some movement in the pin; up and down. Movement in that could throw off the geometry of the sear to on/off relationship, no?

nak81783

07-23-2013, 09:08 PM

If it's happening when you're holding the trigger back, the problem is behind the Level 10.

1. Regardless of what it looks like, try replacing the small oring on the aft side of the reg seat holder.

2. Regardless of what they look like, replace the small oring that sits in the counterbore of the ULT and the oring that snaps around the top brass piece of the ULT (piece with the aforementioned counterbore.

3. Replace the sear as need4reebs suggested. Although I don't think the latch is the issue, if the on/off pin engagement hump on the back of the sear is worn or was ground down by the previous owner, that could cause this issue.

The movement you describe in the sear pin is normal to a point. Can you quantify the movement you're seeing. Remember, it will be constrained by the body when assembled.

-Nathan

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 09:18 PM

Well go figure. I followed step 1 and air up before step 2 and were a single shot again. No more automatic.

No that we fixed it, can you explain what that little seal does so I can give it a stern talking to later?

Wow thanks Nak, and the rest.

nak81783

07-23-2013, 09:27 PM

It makes the air enter the dump chamber via its intended path - through the on/off. Since the seal was bad, the air could enter the dump chamber backwards - through the hole in the center of the reg pin assembly. In essence, with the bad seal, your marker could not turn air flow off to the dump chamber.

Sorry it took so long for me to think of it. I actually just recently told someone else to replace that, and it solved part of his problem. My bad.

-Nathan

need4reebs

07-23-2013, 09:42 PM

It makes the air enter the dump chamber via its extended path - through the on/off. Since the seal was bad, the air could enter the dump chamber backwards - through the hole in the center of the reg pin assembly. In essence, with the bad seal, your marker could not turn air flow off to the dump chamber.

Sorry it took so long for me to think of it. I actually just recently told someone else to replace that, and it solved part of his problem. My bad.

-Nathan

dood its actually a real good thing that it took awhile to think of it...in fact the mag was diagnosed and fixed pretty quick...considering the mag is not in your hands. seriously this was like a Mag 101 class with a lot of knowledge taught as well as learned! too bad not all the trouble shooting threads are like this. usually someone will post, get a few tips on fixing their mag, and then they just disappear...no thank you, no telling what the fix was for the next person that has the same issue.

this thread was Sa WeeT Dood...haha!!!

Mic0157

07-23-2013, 09:48 PM

dood its actually a real good thing that it took awhile to think of it...in fact the mag was diagnosed and fixed pretty quick...considering the mag is not in your hands. seriously this was like a Mag 101 class with a lot of knowledge taught as well as learned! too bad not all the trouble shooting threads are like this. usually someone will post, get a few tips on fixing their mag, and then they just disappear...no thank you, no telling what the fix was for the next person that has the same issue.

this thread was Sa WeeT Dood...haha!!!

I appreciate all the knowledge floating around. There wasn't an Internet the last time I was troubleshooting a mag. I'll be referring to this link in the future if something goes wrong.

Thanks again