Lack of accuracy is what makes paintball the game it is.

[Patron God of Pirates]

There are thousands of threads all over the interwebs and probably a few hundred here on AO talking about how to get more accuracy out of our friend the paintball. I'm as big an offender as most. I have dozens of barrels, two insert kits, and an APEX tip. A thread here about under boring (which was fascinating but above my pay grade) got me to thinking:

Would dead on balls accurate paintball be any fun?
My answer, no. But that is a matter of personal preference. I happen to like the pulse pounding game of movement, communication, and angle hunting that is paintball. I know allot of folks who started out expecting it to be a game of hiding, creeping, and sniping. Those people spent allot of time alone in the woods way out of range before either getting the hang of real paintball, or quitting.

For me, if that sniper style worked, if you could consistently long ball somebody with a single shot from the edge of paint break range, well that would stink. Every once and awhile I get hit by a long ball from deepest darkest somewhere. It is by far the least satisfying way to get out. I would rather be lit up point blank making a desperate dash for the flag. No matter how "milsim" your marker is, paintball will never effectively "simmil".

What is more exiting?:
Two Hellcats thatch weaving against a Zero. One pilot putting it all on the line so his wing man has a chance to put the Zero in his cross hairs.
or
An F-22 getting a first look, first shot, first kill from over the horizon on some hapless Mig 29.

Sure the later may be cooler. But I would rather watch the former. What say you AO?

[cockerpunk]

i agree. so much of what paintball is, as a game, is a band aide for terrible technology. and going back, we could fix all of those issues, but the game that resulted would be very very very different. the spherical ball is a dumb design. but because we have a lightweight spherical ball, that has very limited range and accuracy, we play on small fields, very close to each other. there is a pretty trainwrecked thread on simonized where i talk about a few more examples, such as vertical feed.

it comes down to, like many things in life, technical perfection vs fun.

[Flatliner333]

I'm with you on this. But each to his own on style of play. Although it wouldnt really bother me if I was sniped out I do prefer a more balls to the wall style of play. I have yet to play any senarios so I have not incountered any snipers or even seen a first strike round. That being said I do like to know who and where I am being shot at from.

[OPBN]

Not totally on topic, but one time I was with a group of guys and we were deciding which way to go during a big game. One of the guys asked me where the opposition was and I pointed with my marker towards a ridge where a path went down to a group of people on the other team. As I pointed, the marker fired a shot and one went perfectly arcing until it pretty much came down in the center of the path of the other side. I started to turn around and talk to the other players with me when someone starts laughing and pointing towards the ridge. Some guy is walking up the ridge with hands up and a big splat of paint in the middle of his mask. Apparently, my errant shot from probably 200 ft away found some unlucky dude and gog'd him as he was getting ready to try and take the ridge. When he got to the top he saw how far way we were and just started shaking his head and walking towards the respawn. Laughed for probably a good 10 minutes on that one.

Regarding accuracy, I agree and disagree. As with any activity, different styles move in and out of fashion to a degree. I actually thought FSR's would have been much more of a game changer than they have been, but they do seem to be getting more of a toehold on things. Do I want to sit around in a ghillie peeing down my leg as I sit in a bunch of brush waiting for the ultimate one shot/one kill? No, as I don't have that sort of patience. But there are definitely days that I get frustrated with watching my shots fly out 60 feet on target to eliminate another player and then do something that borderlines seems to defy physics and shoot off into a direction that I never intended it to go. However, I am not ready to invest $1200+ in a DAM setup shooting $.75/round FSR's either.

[uv_halo]

Since you asked... I disagree.

My heart gets pounding when I successfully, and stealthily flank a group of folks and I one-shot them out, one at a time. This requires accuracy and a bit of distance/noise reduction to prevent alerting other members in the group.

I also enjoy successfully hiding and hitting someone with them not knowing anything about where it came from (effectively slowing down a group).

My favorite elimination:

At Living Legends 4, Not long after the start of a break, an individual wearing jeans, a tank top (maybe not even a pod pack), carrying an A5, and who must have sprinted the majority of the quarter mile distance to get to us (judging by how much earlier he got to us than the rest of his team) stopped at the top of a rise overlooking us and stood there, in the open with his A5 hanging at his side. He appeared to be looking at us in the hyperball field as if he was trying to figrure out which bunker to bump up to or, to wait for the rest of his team. He was fairly far away and I wasn't sure if I could hit him. So, I lined up the sights, applied a fair amount of holdover, and let a first strike round fly. I saw it fly in a trajectory in-line with him and a moment or two later, he suddenly jerked his head downward towards his belly. He then looked over to the ref about 7yrds to his right (maybe to ask if he was out?), before angrily shaking his arms (and A5) turning around and walking back towards his base.

I could care less how my game play looks to other people. It's all about the relationship between myself and my opposition.

[nak81783]

I don't think more accuracy would change the game at all, therefore I don't care if it ever comes about, nor would I be willing to pay more for more accuracy than I have now.

The reason I don't think accuracy would change the game is because firearms are way more accurate than paintball guns, and the shots hit to shots fired ratio is still extremely low in combat - run & gun, stressful, adrenaline situations. The well trained may have a higher hit rate, but they're using projectiles going thousands of feet per second with ballistic coefficients far superior to a ball.

I wouldn't want to get hit with a paintball going 3000fps, and how many of us actually have the time to learn to shoot something as accurately as it is capable, not to mention the targets are often moving, which adds a further degree of difficulty.

All that said, we'd all probably be out there spraying just as many more expensive/more accurate paintballs as we do the ones we have now.

[Patron God of Pirates]

All that said, we'd all probably be out there spraying just as many more expensive/more accurate paintballs as we do the ones we have now.

I disagree only because I think that if everyone was playing with highly accurate equipment those run and gun situations would not occur with any frequency. The ability to long ball, and the fear of being long balled would paralyze the game. I have a nightmare vision of 6 hour games just thinking about it.


So, I lined up the sights, applied a fair amount of holdover, and let a first strike round fly.
I could see this being fun if I were one of a handful of people using FS rounds. If everyone was rocking those FS rounds this scenario would never have taken place.

[nak81783]

I like this thread. Good idea to start it.

The only ways to get more distance is more speed or a better ballistic coefficient. Our current safety standards won't allow more speed.

I hate to do this, but I have to bring up precision vs. accuracy, but only because this thread is hypothetically discussing increased precision in the game we all love.

That said, even is paintballs were 100% precise, I still think there would be run & gun, because it's up to the shooter to provide the accuracy. A projectile's trajectory at 300fps is extremely curved. Furthermore, the lead for even a human sprint speed is considerable. Add that into an unknown distance, and I think we'd still have an accuracy by volume game.

For comparison, shooting a .22LR at 200 yards is said to be like shooting a .308 at 700+yards. It's all based on models of scale. Paintball (even with extreme precision) would be the same, because so many variables are still the responsibility of the shooter.

By the way, your quotes are wrong above.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Thanks, I fixed the quotes. I guess the only way to know would be if it occurred. My position relies more on the human element than on anything measurable. Whatever the most effective method is would most likely determine how the game was played. The guys I first started playing with 15+ years ago would probably still be hiding in the woods if it worked. If precision to the edge of breaking distance could be relied on by the shooter, then I do think people would take the time to master the skill. Just like so many of us have tried to master snap shooting and all of the other skills that go with the way the game is played now.

[cockerpunk]

I like this thread. Good idea to start it.

The only ways to get more distance is more speed or a better ballistic coefficient. Our current safety standards won't allow more speed.

I hate to do this, but I have to bring up precision vs. accuracy, but only because this thread is hypothetically discussing increased precision in the game we all love.

That said, even is paintballs were 100% precise, I still think there would be run & gun, because it's up to the shooter to provide the accuracy. A projectile's trajectory at 300fps is extremely curved. Furthermore, the lead for even a human sprint speed is considerable. Add that into an unknown distance, and I think we'd still have an accuracy by volume game.

For comparison, shooting a .22LR at 200 yards is said to be like shooting a .308 at 700+yards. It's all based on models of scale. Paintball (even with extreme precision) would be the same, because so many variables are still the responsibility of the shooter.

By the way, your quotes are wrong above.

everyone who has taken 8th grade science likes to bring up the accuracy vs precision argument, and its silly, so im gonna nip this in the butt right now.

in paintball, they can be used interchangeably.

why?

because accuracy is the ability and rate at which a system hits a target. so i can take the same gun, and the same target, and i can shoot it, and get 100% accuracy, and 0% accuracy ... how? just by changing the aim point. the aim point relies on the shooter, so one might say, well, that means the person is reposnable for accuracy, while the setup is responsible for precision. and thats fine, im fine with that. but you also don't see threads on forums saying "how can it get more precision from my gun?"

[uv_halo]

I could see this being fun if I were one of a handful of people using FS rounds. If everyone was rocking those FS rounds this scenario would never have taken place.

True but, what makes the game challenging is that FS rounds force folks to choose low capacity, for long range and better accuracy, or, high capacity for reduced range and reduced accuracy. Successful application of either of these rounds require the appropriate tactics.

[blackdeath1k]

I really think if the paint was more accurate in a farther distance... Say we all have paint that shoots as far and accurate as fs rounds. All it would change is the distance apart of apposing players. Go to any scenario now. You have your guys that will crawl in the mud and brush across a field for a good hidden sniper shot. And you have your up close and personal fire fight guys. That wouldn't change. The guy crawling in the mud and brush will still be there. Just maybe shooting from a farther distance. And your speedball style players will still be there. Probably not shooting from a farther distance.

A fs round shot at 300 fps will fly farther and straighter because its velocity doesn't drop as fast. Along with other more technical reasons. So we could keep the same fps rules and get quicker distance shots with better paint technology. That said. I'm betting the universally allowd fps would drop to compensate for the difference in average speed the ball will be flying when it hits the target.

[nak81783]

If precision to the edge of breaking distance could be relied on by the shooter, then I do think people would take the time to master the skill. Just like so many of us have tried to master snap shooting and all of the other skills that go with the way the game is played now.

This is a good point. But this could be easily countered, because paintballs are so slow. By the time you visually acquire your target, raise marker, apply appropriate lead and holdover, and fire, I would already be at the next bunker by the time the projectile got there.

And if you were laying in wait, paintballs travel about 1/3 the speed of sound. I'd hear the shot and take a dive before it got there. Granted I might not be able to dodge it completely, but I could certainly reduce my profile enough to reduce risk. My friends and I play "Matrix" once in a while. Two guys 50 feet apart take turns one shot a a time. You can't leave your feet, but you can twist, contort, and otherwise dodge the paintball however possible. I know this sounds goofy, but it's fun and relevant.

I guess what I'm saying is there'd be methods to counter any improvement in precision, within the current velocity/safety realm.

[blackdeath1k]

True but, what makes the game challenging is that FS rounds force folks to choose low capacity, for long range and better accuracy, or, high capacity for reduced range and reduced accuracy. Successful application of either of these rounds require the appropriate tactics.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Only complaint is when your playing in that scenario with FPO and the paint is warped and dimpled and just plain crap. Then no one can hit the broad side of a barn and has to spray and pray.

[nak81783]

everyone who has taken 8th grade science likes to bring up the accuracy vs precision argument, and its silly, so im gonna nip this in the butt right now.

in paintball, they can be used interchangeably.

why?

because accuracy is the ability and rate at which a system hits a target. so i can take the same gun, and the same target, and i can shoot it, and get 100% accuracy, and 0% accuracy ... how? just by changing the aim point. the aim point relies on the shooter, so one might say, well, that means the person is reposnable for accuracy, while the setup is responsible for precision. and thats fine, im fine with that. but you also don't see threads on forums saying "how can it get more precision from my gun?"

I knew you'd be the one to call me on this. As I stated, it is only for the hypothetical discussion of this thread that I brought it up. Since you said you're fine with my rationale, I'll leave it at that.

One more point though. Since we don't see threads asking how to improve the precision of our markers, does that mean most of us don't have an 8th grade education? Uh oh.

[Patron God of Pirates]

True but, what makes the game challenging is that FS rounds force folks to choose low capacity, for long range and better accuracy, or, high capacity for reduced range and reduced accuracy. Successful application of either of these rounds require the appropriate tactics.

True. I have never played any scenario or even seen an FS round. I'm only conceptually familiar with them. I guess my point is more appropriately applied in an across the board manner. Even more so if you take it back to the beginning. What would the game be today if high precision/accuracy (whatever we call it) had been the norm from the get go? Would speedball have ever been born? I'm suggesting that it would not have. The game would be much more milsim and more closely resemble airsoft. In my experience most people start playing paintball expecting a more milsim game and keep playing because actual paintball is way more fun than crawling around in the grass getting bit by bugs. But I digress. I don't want this to turn into a milsim vs. speedball thread (I fully understand and respect both sides of that).

[cockerpunk]

I knew you'd be the one to call me on this. As I stated, it is only for the hypothetical discussion of this thread that I brought it up. Since you said you're fine with my rationale, I'll leave it at that.

One more point though. Since we don't see threads asking how to improve the precision of our markers, does that mean most of us don't have an 8th grade education? Uh oh.

haha, don;t get me started on science education in this country ... haha

i guess it just seems silly to me bring it up, and it happens every time, someone does it. and its just a whole discussion that doesn't need to be had compared to the main point. im all for accurate (hehehe) terminology, but everyone in this thread knows what we are talking about, there isn't an ambiguity here. and an even better term then precision would probably be repeatability. but again, thats neither here nor there.

idk, i have had A LOT of online arguments about the technical side of paintball. i have fought A LOT of battles on line about this stuff. i convinced the paintball world to use barrels smaller then there the paint for god's sake, i have had some knock out, drag out, fights. and maybe im just old and tired of it, but this one i just can't seem to bring myself to care about. everyone already knows what we mean when we say a guns accuracy ...

[nak81783]

haha, don;t get me started on science education in this country ... haha

i guess it just seems silly to me bring it up, and it happens every time, someone does it. and its just a whole discussion that doesn't need to be had compared to the main point. im all for accurate (hehehe) terminology, but everyone in this thread knows what we are talking about, there isn't an ambiguity here. and an even better term then precision would probably be repeatability. but again, thats neither here nor there.

idk, i have had A LOT of online arguments about the technical side of paintball. i have fought A LOT of battles on line about this stuff. i convinced the paintball world to use barrels smaller then there the paint for god's sake, i have had some knock out, drag out, fights. and maybe im just old and tired of it, but this one i just can't seem to bring myself to care about. everyone already knows what we mean when we say a guns accuracy ...

Ok. In the post you called me out on, let's pretend I used accuracy/precision interchangeably and said "because it's up to the shooter to provide the skill and execution.

[Frizzle Fry]

Let's get our popcorn and dunce caps.

[Patron God of Pirates]

SCIENCCCCEEEEEE FIIIIGHT!!!!!!!
lol. Make any marginally technical claim on AO and it's like throwing chum in the water.

[BTAutoMag]

theres a guy I play play with, Ben (we all call him "one ball"... Grimm's played against him) he plays pump an he uses a Sniper. Nothing special, doesnt even bore match his paint, uses a .689 stiffi. I LOVE playing against him, cause I get better everytime I do. Normally when you hear someone shoot and when you hear balls break around you, you lag a little. You know that chances of someone hitting you with that first shot is very slim and you can probably get of a few before he sights you in and you pull back. with this guy, however, if you see/hear him shoot, you better have your head already in the motion of pulling back into cover. I have a pictures of me in a fire fight with him, me having pods laying around my feet and splotches of yellow paint peppering the edge of the bunker around where I'm popping out. I've only shot this guy twice, once was the first time he played with me and I was severely under estimated when I shot him with a rental. The last time I ran my butt off to a bunker with a hole in it, knowing his favorite bunkers, and shot him without him even knowing I was there. Grimm will attest to how good this guy is with a pump, hosing paint into him and he pops out and shoots you once in the face mid run.

he is very quiet, doesnt brag and is one of the most humble and kind players I know. He doesnt call himself a sniper, nor do I consider him one as he like to be in your face when playing.

But I guarantee it'll only take him one shot to hit you, lol

[Laku]

SCIENCCCCEEEEEE FIIIIGHT!!!!!!!
lol. Make any marginally technical claim on AO and it's like throwing chum in the water.

Part of why I love the place :)

[cockerpunk]

SCIENCCCCEEEEEE FIIIIGHT!!!!!!!
lol. Make any marginally technical claim on AO and it's like throwing chum in the water.

not anymore sadly :(

<3 deepblue ... was probably the thing that inspired me most to do punkworks.

[nak81783]

SCIENCCCCEEEEEE FIIIIGHT!!!!!!!
lol. Make any marginally technical claim on AO and it's like throwing chum in the water.

I lose. He's got too much data.

We're simply getting our jargon down, so we can discuss things better.

[blackdeath1k]

Repeatability. now that works. I care more about the ball hitting the same place every time than anything. That and it breaking on target. Don't like paint bouncing off of steel structures hitting me in the back.

But that said. I don't think this would have stayed a hide and seek sport regardless of paint. To many players want the fast in your face action.

[nak81783]

Repeatability. now that works. I care more about the ball hitting the same place every time than anything.

Don't mean to pick on you cockerpunk and blackdeath1k, but sure...

We will change the already established scientific contrast between accuracy and precision, and instead make accuracy equal to precision, and precision not equal to repeatability, but it's own thing. Can reproducibility still be equal to repeatability, or should we get really crazy and make it equal both repeatability and precision...and therefore accuracy?

I truly mean this is good fun.

I see why it's better to take, whatever word is used, in context...

[blackdeath1k]

Haha. I was just meaning I liked that word choice. Kinda like with real guns. You could have a scope set perfect on one gun. Theoretically Swap the scope to a different gun. Same everything. But a different gun. And have to re set the scope. Barrel differences can make the bullet hit the target in a different spot. But as long as it always hits the same spot. Or 9 out of 10. Then still happy.

As far as true tech stuff. I really just want the ball to be consistent in hitting the same spot each time I shoot. If that is a distance of 300' great. If that's a distance of 200' OK. If its at least hitting the same spot I can deal with it. FS rounds hit the target at a farther distance. So for the guy that likes to crawl around and wait. They are a good option. But for a front guy. Like me. I'm happy with a case of basic paint that is round. Breaks on impact. And consistently lands in the same spot when shot from a given location.

[Justus]

Of course, a big problem with people asking to get more accuracy out of their paintball guns (using the interchangeable term that I think everyone agreed is okay), is the fact that they don't really know how accurate their gun is in the first place. I would surmise that a vast majority have never set their paintball guns in a gun vice, set up some high quality paint, and shot at a target to find out just how precise (repeatability, reproduceability?) the rig is. [And even then, it's going to have a lot to do with the quality of the paint, freshness, and size compared to barrel size]

Instead, they say "it's not very accurate" when they can't hip-shot and hit an opponent between the slats of their pallet bunker from 100 feet out.

Edit: Case in point, I can't hit anything beyond about 30 yards with my TiPX pistol. And I know it's not the pistol's fault. It's just so lightweight (I use 12g's) and short that it makes it easy for me to twist it ever so slightly in my grip and be off. (Human error) I'm sure that if I put it in a vice and shot 100 rounds, I would see a much higher degree of precision than what I tend to see on the field during a game.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Good point Justus. People are looking at accuracy/precision what ever we are calling it from a personal experience standpoint, not a scientific one. The observable inaccuracy that frustrates players is caused by a myriad of factors (air supply, bore sizing, paint quality, all kinds o' other crap), but the most important factor (like everything else in paintball) is the player.

All the fine tuning and expensive upgrades in the world won't make a round projectile behave like a bullet. There are always going to be balls that sail on you. From what I understand of vortex shedding, no ball truly flies straight. The answer is to adjust your game accordingly and that is just what players have done. Ultimately they(we) have created the modern game of paintball. A game where you adjust your aim point constantly and very seldom fire just one ball. A game that is played up close and personal because close range = better (observable) accuracy and more paint breakage.

[jolt00]

because accuracy is the ability and rate at which a system hits a target. so i can take the same gun, and the same target, and i can shoot it, and get 100% accuracy, and 0% accuracy ... how? just by changing the aim point. the aim point relies on the shooter, so one might say, well, that means the person is reposnable for accuracy, while the setup is responsible for precision. and that's fine, i'm fine with that. but you also don't see threads on forums saying "how can it get more precision from my gun?"

You don't know how close to posting a thread with the title "how can I get more precision from my gun"

I rarely post anything but I read everything and I wanted to poke a little fun at cockerpunk I miss reading your arguments on stockclass.... hahah

[cockerpunk]

Don't mean to pick on you cockerpunk and blackdeath1k, but sure...

We will change the already established scientific contrast between accuracy and precision, and instead make accuracy equal to precision, and precision not equal to repeatability, but it's own thing. Can reproducibility still be equal to repeatability, or should we get really crazy and make it equal both repeatability and precision...and therefore accuracy?

I truly mean this is good fun.

I see why it's better to take, whatever word is used, in context...

as do i.

if yo are willing to fight that battle, and on every front, in every thread about accuracy fight that battle ... i support you 100%.

but i just don't care.

[Dark Side]

Would dead on balls accurate paintball be any fun?
My answer, no. But that is a matter of personal preference. I happen to like the pulse pounding game of movement, communication, and angle hunting that is paintball. I know allot of folks who started out expecting it to be a game of hiding, creeping, and sniping. Those people spent allot of time alone in the woods way out of range before either getting the hang of real paintball, or quitting.

I was really willing to give you a chance until the word "real". I ran a field in FL some time ago, and a good 8 out of 10 people would only play the woods fields. They weren't huge by any means, but you couldn't fire from one side and hit the other either. There are many different aspects of the game. Why does Woodsball, ie: Recball which is the bread and butter of most fields not be considered "real"? It uses many of the same concepts that Speedball does. So what if the game rely more on stealth and guile than angles? You still have to hit what you aim at to get the other guys out.



For me, if that sniper style worked, if you could consistently long ball somebody with a single shot from the edge of paint break range, well that would stink. Every once and awhile I get hit by a long ball from deepest darkest somewhere. It is by far the least satisfying way to get out. I would rather be lit up point blank making a desperate dash for the flag. No matter how "milsim" your marker is, paintball will never effectively "simmil". Actually, taking my time to line up that impossible shot is very fulfilling and disappearing and flanking a group by myself feels incredible. Airsoft however has taken over the milsim idea quite well as SpecOps and OpsGear paintball products are not so common.


What is more exiting?:
Two Hellcats thatch weaving against a Zero. One pilot putting it all on the line so his wing man has a chance to put the Zero in his cross hairs.
or
An F-22 getting a first look, first shot, first kill from over the horizon on some hapless Mig 29.

Sure the later may be cooler. But I would rather watch the former. What say you AO?

All I see here is an argument against trees.

[OPBN]

Much like the confusion/misuse of the term accuracy, I think there is a broad misuse of term sniper in paintball. I would venture a guess that what most people consider "sniper" style of play, I would actually classify as "ambush" style. Sneaking up behind people, flanking them etc and ambushing them is considerably different than digging in 100 yards from the action with your ghuilie suit hiding under a shrub. All woodsball isnt sniping. You can still play balls out woodsball, we usually do. I think that was PGoPs use of the term "real" was aimed at, not woodsball in general.

[nak81783]

Much like the confusion/misuse of the term accuracy, I think there is a broad misuse of term sniper in paintball. I would venture a guess that what most people consider "sniper" style of play, I would actually classify as "ambush" style. Sneaking up behind people, flanking them etc and ambushing them is considerably different than digging in 100 yards from the action with your ghuilie suit hiding under a shrub. All woodsball isnt sniping. You can still play balls out woodsball, we usually do. I think that was PGoPs use of the term "real" was aimed at, not woodsball in general.

Well said.

And to further the "ambush" vs. "sniper" mentality... Since we all use the same weight of paint at the same velocity (relatively, I understand their are .50 Cal paintballs and FSR's), we are all in the same arena. Compare that to the broad spectrum from a 9mm Luger (Parabellum, x19, however you know it) to a .338 Lapua, and I think that paints a pretty clear picture.

[Patron God of Pirates]

...

I had no intention of making a woodsball vs. speedball argument. When I used the term 'real' I meant only to say the way Paintball (woods, speed, X, or otherwise) is actually played vs. how (most) people envision it before playing. I myself play almost exclusively in the woods. I prefer the larger play space, varied cover, and ability to engage/disengage/reengage elsewhere. So yeah, most certainly was not trying to argue against trees. My only point is that (the largest contributing reason) ALL paintball is played the way it is played is because that is what works best. I understand that some people have lots of success and enjoyment playing the creep about and long ball technique. I would argue that not only are those people the exception to the rule, but that they are role players and if you built a whole team (say of 10) out of them they would get rolled. I would love to have someone on my team that could perform that roll effectively. I've been playing for 15 years and I've never met one.

I recently played with a guy who was playing pump against the likes of Axe's, Mini's etc. But his game was not to creep around and one time people from hiding. It was movement, communication, angles, and being very judicious about the shots he took.

[38super]

Interesting thread.

The lack of accuracy in paint ball isn't so much to do with the equipment or the projectiles; it has to do mostly with the players.

It goes without saying that paint balls are inherently inaccurate. Compared to real ammunition that's absolutely true but if we go into it with an understanding of the limitations and the ability to work within those boundaries, they are more than accurate enough.

For me, coming from an extensive background in competitive speed pistol shooting where accuracy is 50% of the equation, it was a difficult adjustment. But even so, I honestly have to shake my head sometimes when I watch people "shoot" their guns.

The three main variables as I see them are:
The inherent accuracy of the firing system, the inherent accuracy of the projectile, and the ability of the shooter.

Assuming that a paint-baller is using reasonable quality paint and a reasonable quality launching system (underbore, over bore....doesn't matter so long as it's consistent), we can expect a certain standard of average accuracy out of say, a 2000 round case of paint. So for argument's sake we'll just pick a number out of the air and say that we if clamped the gun in a stable machine rest and fired 2000 rounds at a target the size of a trash can lid 20 meters away, probably 1800 of them or 90 % of them will get the hit. It's a pretty big target. This is assuming it isn't massively humid or raining and there isn't a cross wind.

So a 90% hit ratio @ 20 meters is our standard. In fact, let's be generous and call it 80%.

Therefore, I have to wonder why I continually see guys who will expend hundreds of rounds at distances of 20 meters or less to get one hit....IF they get the hit at all. And I see this all the time. The guy may have the fastest gun on the planet and he can lay down ropes of money...err...paint just like a squad machine gun. But watch what happens to his muzzle as he's walking the dickens out of that trigger; it's wandering all over the place and he's shooting a group the size of a building. Mathematically, firing a two hundred round hopper at a target twenty meters away, even it that target is popping in and out from cover, should get a fairly large number of hits.

Personally I prefer not to play the accuracy-by-volume way. It's too expensive and it's just not as much fun for me. I prefer to shoot as accurately as possible within the design parameters of the firing system and the projectiles being used. I get more satisfaction out of a well-placed shot than I do out of an almost accidental hit that results from a whole hpper fired on one target. I will certainly cluster short salvos of fire on a target in order to take advantage of the averaging factor, but if I can't get the hit it's usually because I lack a suitable position to deliver it, not because I don't know how to fire an accurate shot on demand.

I've often wondered if round limits would change the way the various types of games are played. I mean, if you had to walk onto the field with only what you can carry in your hopper, you'd have to start focusing more on the tactical problem of flanking and out-maneuvering your opponent, wouldn't you? Of course, paint ball field owners would ever go for that. They wouldn't make any money.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Interesting thread.
I will certainly cluster short salvos of fire on a target in order to take advantage of the averaging factor, but if I can't get the hit it's usually because I lack a suitable position to deliver it, not because I don't know how to fire an accurate shot on demand.


This is an excellent description of what being "accurate" in paintball means. Short salvos (3-6 rounds in my book) fired rapidly over a relatively short distance. 20 meters being a fairly standard engagement distance playing in the woods. Although I suspect that allot of the spray painting you are witnessing has little to do with actually attempting to hit a target and more to do with facilitating movement (and sometimes just showing off).

PS- I love Hopper Ball.

[athomas]

I think accuracy in a paintball gun would be fantastic. An accurate ball still doesn't make an accurate shot. The player has to be accurate as well. An accurate ball just takes an unknown out of the equation. That would reward good players more than those who are not. As it stands, any player that points a gun down field and just pulls the trigger has a random chance at hitting a target because the balls hit in a random pattern. A player that accurately aims has a slightly better chance but it is still somewhat random given that the paintball is not going to go exactly where you aim it.

Now, given that paintballs have a finite distance that they operate within, you have to be pretty good at judging air movement and elevation even if they went exactly where they were aimed. It wouldn't make that person suddenly invincible from anywhere in the field, but at least anyone who practiced would be better than someone who didn't.

There is nothing more frustrating in the sport of paintball than sneaking up on your opponent, taking a perfect shot from 30ft away and having the shot miss by 3 feet due to a bad ball, and then having that same person turn and hold the trigger and spray a 10 ft area around you without moving his marker and eliminating you with an errant ball.

[38super]

Although I suspect that allot of the spray painting you are witnessing has little to do with actually attempting to hit a target and more to do with facilitating movement (and sometimes just showing off).

PS- I love Hopper Ball.

Yes, some of them do know how to bring suppression fire. Still, it doesn't have to be a steady stream of paint to keep someone's head down while your flanker moves up. I've also seen many people "suppressing" a tree with no one hiding behind it. Must be nice to have money.

Anyway, just listen to the typical chatter in the staging area. Mostly it's about how fast their gun is, how sic it looks, how walkable the trigger is, blah blah blah. I almost never hear anyone say they can hit a grapefruit-sized target at 20 meters on demand with it. Most of them still think a longer barrel gives them more distance. Usually these are the same guys who later ask me, "how did you hit me through that knot-hole." Easy, I aimed.

I can say for certain that even with the limitations and wild variations we see in paint balls and paintball guns, it really does generally average out better if you can actually shoot. As athomas noted; it removes one variable

[Patron God of Pirates]

Yes, some of them do know how to bring suppression fire. Still, it doesn't have to be a steady stream of paint to keep someone's head down while your flanker moves up. I've also seen many people "suppressing" a tree with no one hiding behind it. Must be nice to have money.


Slightly off topic but I recently witnessed someone "suppressing" a bunker that I no longer occupied. I sat there and watched him dump a whole hopper into it then I moved up and shot him in the hand while he was reloading. I agree with both of you on the general premiss that aiming = good. My point is not that "paintballs are wild so we should all just spray wildly". In athomas' example of missing due to a stray ball... That is why we fire 3.

[blackdeath1k]

Reading some of the outlooks on general paint I think some people have never used decent paint. Yes. With good paint we will all get a stray or two. But in general any decent paint I've used is more than accurate enough for my front line style of play. It almost always goes where my barrel is pointed. What more could I ask for? Wish they would fly farther at times. But hey. We all or almost all have that limitation. FSR excluded. The locals at white river paintball think there JUNK field paint is the norm. Now that is sad. Great fields. Good reffs. The expense I could handle. There paint quality would easily start a discussion like what is going on here. I had to play more spray and play than I'm comfortable with because if you actually hit them. It would most likely bounce.

As far as spray and pray. No thanks. Generally I do 1 to 3 shot sets. If its more than that its cover fire to get someone in position. Getting a position set up. And one balling a guy as he is trying to peek out is always my favorite.

As for a team of guys that like to sneak around in the weeds. Bet a good team of them would be a pita to the opposition in a big woods scenario. Get a couple of them in your team. Keep good coms. And wreck havoc in the woods. Got a couple of them guys I've ran with from time to time. They will disappear right from the start. While the other 5 of us are running front we keep them in the know of what's going on. While the opponent is fighting us. They all of a sudden take shots from beside them and don't know what hit them. Doc on the outdoorsmen is one that comes to mind. He crawls through anything. Its the style he prefers. And he is great at it. No FSR or anything. Basic round paint. But he can also play well in a city fire fight.