One for the Pros to venture forth on. XMT Body not getting into the rhythm.

[XtraKargo]

Hey all,

So I have recently gotten an XMT ULE with the Classic RT look, for an X-valve. When I had the Valve in the original AGD ULE body, it was a perfect, walkable, rhythm to the trigger. Once I dropped in the XMT Body, it catches on the return briefly. Then resets, and is able to fire again.

SOOOOOO, I tried my classic valve from a Minimag. Shoots fantastic in the XMT Body. Then I had to test the X-Valve and finally gotten it back to perfection in the AGD ULE with no shims in the LVL10 using a 1 carrier, gold spring and lubing everything once again. I have the Thumb screw finger tight only (in the AGD ULE I would put the 1/4 turn on it) A mag whisperer once told me to try adjusting the Thumb screw slightly with different aftermarket parts. No luck here.

So here is a short Video. And my open mind looking for insight. Thanks folks.:hail:

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/th_BoltStick.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/BoltStick.mp4)

[BigEvil]

Do you have the correct front frame screw and rail bushing in there? Also, try tightening up the thumbscrew with an allen wrench.

[XtraKargo]

Same screw that came from the AGD ULE body and the bushing is there as well.

If I tighten the thumbscrew it is the same deal.

(By the by - you were the Mag whisperer, thanks)

[need4reebs]

with the body off the rail try dropping the bolt into the body to see if it will fit into the breech...you might have a bur somewhere around the breech...a lil needle file and a few minutes should take of that if you have a bur.

[XtraKargo]

with the body off the rail try dropping the bolt into the body to see if it will fit into the breech...you might have a bur somewhere around the breech...a lil needle file and a few minutes should take of that if you have a bur.

Drops in clean. I even removed the detents during the video, they shown some where but the body is clean inside.

[nak81783]

When you say it catches on the return, do you literally mean the bolt is slow to spring back, or do you mean it just recharges slowly?

If the distance from the center of the rear field strip screw to the bolt spring seat inside the body is different (it can vary significantly even from one AGD body to another), you may need to tune the Level 10 to that particular body. Perhaps the distance is longer, so you need a longer spring than the gold one you indicated you are using. Are you using the largest carrier that doesn't leak? If not, this hypothesis holds more water, as bolt stick with a weak spring (for the longer distance anyway) is more likely.

Are you using a ULT? That may need to be tuned for a specific body as well. Slowly add shims to see if that helps.

I haven't done a pneumag (yet). Is the ULT required to help it cycle at a lower lpr setting?

[XtraKargo]

It is strange, it returns quickly, then pauses for a short period, and clicks into place.

There isn't a ULT involved, but it is a pneumatic trigger. Very light trigger pull and easily walkable.

I will double check my carrier to O-ring again for leaks. Just to be certain.

[BigEvil]

Crank your velocity way up and keep firing it. See if it goes away after a while and then lower your velocity to normal. Ive seen similar issues on new Xmag breeches. You would see some wear on the inside where the bolt would rub slightly. Once you saw where it was rubbing, you could polish it out with some emery cloth.

[nak81783]

What is the bottom wall thickness of the working vs. non-working bodies?

What length on/off pin are you using? If .750", humor me, and try a .712" if you have one.

Edit: I should say I don't expect the shorter pin to fix the issue, although if it does great. I would rather like to know if it gives a different result - barrel leak, bolt never resets, etc. On the rare chance that you have a .765" pin, try that one too, and let us know what it does.

[nak81783]

Crank your velocity way up and keep firing it. See if it goes away after a while and then lower your velocity to normal. Ive seen similar issues on new Xmag breeches. You would see some wear on the inside where the bolt would rub slightly. Once you saw where it was rubbing, you could polish it out with some emery cloth.

Would it be advantageous to do this with a Level 7, if available, to really beat things into submission?

[XtraKargo]

Now I don't have a set of digital calipers, but my old ones show it as just shy 1/16th, and they both are the same, the calipers slides right off of one and onto the other. With the carrier I stepped up to 1.5 and it leaked so I went back to a 1. (granted this is a fresh o-ring to, in my troubleshooting on my own, I figured why not, to see what happens without shims and where I end up on carriers. really was good refresher on the LVL10 also.) I would venture to say this one is a .750 since it just touches the 3/4 mark. I will have to pull my Retro Valve out of storage to see if it is different or not.

With the Velocity turned all the way up it still sticks, and it appears to rub on the upper portion of the body where the outer rim of the bolt pushes against the top (that is the only part that looks scored, but mildly so, a darker grey color). The breech still looks clean. I wondered about the LVL7 myself, if it would make a difference.

[XtraKargo]

Also with that guy turned up it gets LOUD! HA:wow:

And just for good measure I tried the longer spring.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/springs.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/springs.jpg.html)

With the velocity turned up I blew out my foamy, so I will get the joy of replacing it later as well.

[nak81783]

Is the rubbing along the entire stroke, beginning only, end only?

Oh and to clarify, when you put your classic valve on the XMT body, was all that still the pneumag rig, or did you put the XMT body on a standard Mag?

I'll do some tinkering tonight to see if anything else comes to mind. Would still like to know what a different pin length does if you can find one.

I just blew my first foamie off (that I can remember) recently when tinkering with RT effect. Loctite Ultra Gel seems to be working well. Works well on the bumpers too. It's cheaper and easier to find than Loc-Tite 380 or IC-2000, but it has the same rubber toughened, impact resistance properties. I used a dental pick to scrape off the old adhesive. It snaps off in flakes. I also then scuffed up the parent metal and cleaned it with wifey's nail polish remover. Seems to be holding well.

Edit: My X-Mag and ULE bodies have rub marks inside the top of the body near the spring seat. Just an FYI, as the degree to which your marker is rubbing may be different.

[XtraKargo]

I just blew my first foamie off (that I can remember) recently when tinkering with RT effect. Loctite Ultra Gel seems to be working well. Works well on the bumpers too. It's cheaper and easier to find than Loc-Tite 380 or IC-2000, but it has the same rubber toughened, impact resistance properties. I used a dental pick to scrape off the old adhesive. It snaps off in flakes. I also then scuffed up the parent metal and cleaned it with wifey's nail polish remover. Seems to be holding well.

Thanks for the tip!

I tried a Minimag rail and the XValve and got the same thing, but my most recent postings have been with the Pneumag setup.

I would guess it to be the end, or return it is scuffing, but this is minimal at best. It is only directly above the Sear Slot, and doesn't look roughed up. The detente with the smaller/thinner o-ring was fairly chewed up. This doesn't look like that.

[nak81783]

So the problem follows the XMT body and X-Valve? Without those two together, everything works as it should? Am I understanding that correctly? Does the classic valve have a Level 7 or 10?

Also, when asked about the front frame screw, you said it's the same as the one you used on the ULE body. However, is it snug? If so, make sure the head is securing everything together. In other words, make sure it didn't bottom out, and the head isn't able to snug up to the trigger frame. If this is the case, put a washer between screw head and trigger frame, and see if that helps.

[XtraKargo]

They seem to be the only two with symptoms.

The frame screw is one that I doctored a while back to make sure the fit correctly in my AGD ULE body. I sanded the threads down some, and then on some of my projects I have had to make sure the Rail and the Body fit snug at the front and back. So the fit on the XMT to the rail is tight.

I can cater to some testing, even thou it is limited to what I have. There is a Minimag that is pretty much stock. And another twistlock style mag with a retro valve. Mostly Eclipse splash parts except for the SS body.

I can just hammer the body with the X-valve for a while as well and see if it gets better. I haven't moved the LVL7 to the X-Valve yet.

[XtraKargo]

Crank your velocity way up and keep firing it. See if it goes away after a while and then lower your velocity to normal. Ive seen similar issues on new Xmag breeches. You would see some wear on the inside where the bolt would rub slightly. Once you saw where it was rubbing, you could polish it out with some emery cloth.

How many shots you thinking, cause eventually my wife will want to shoot me with it from all the racket... :)

[XtraKargo]

So the problem follows the XMT body and X-Valve? Without those two together, everything works as it should? Am I understanding that correctly? Does the classic valve have a Level 7 or 10?

Tested this morning and here is the sequence of events.

Removed the Classic Valve from the Minimag - inserted the X- Valve - tested fine.
Removed the Minimag Body and twistlock pin - set the XMT Body on - inserted the X-Valve - FIRED A SINGLE SHOT AND FROZE... Trigger has pressure, and the bolt returned and stopped.
Removed the X-Valve and inserted the Classic Valve - tested fine.

This was all on the standard mag rail - with a standard sear - no pneu involved.

Just posting this for food for thought. (I have yet to measure the Retro Valve pin.)

[nak81783]

Good information.

Still need confirmation if Classic valve has Level 7 or 10, please.

Was that single shot intentional, or did it do that when you first aired it up (regardless if you were holding the trigger back upon airing up)?

When froze and the trigger still had pressure, was the gap between the trigger rod and back of trigger what it normally would be (typically credit card thickness), or was the gap larger (i.e. was there only trigger pressure towards the back of the trigger pull?

[XtraKargo]

Good information.

Still need confirmation if Classic valve has Level 7 or 10, please.
LVL7 - truly classic.

Was that single shot intentional, or did it do that when you first aired it up (regardless if you were holding the trigger back upon airing up)?
It was intentional, I didn't hold the trigger down when airing up.
When froze and the trigger still had pressure, was the gap between the trigger rod and back of trigger what it normally would be (typically credit card thickness), or was the gap larger (i.e. was there only trigger pressure towards the back of the trigger pull?
No it was larger, and rather than change the sear pin length, I used a small allen wrench to fill the gap and tried again to fire. No luck.

Thanks again for checking in on this one.

[nak81783]

Well, let's continue to isolate variables. On the std rail/sear, non-pneumatic setup, and XMT body, try the following:

1. Put the Level 7 in the X-Valve. What happens?

2. Put the Level 10 in the Classic valve. What happens?

3. Put the RT on/off assembly in the Classic valve. What happens?

4. I've never done this, so think it through first. Put the Classic on/off assembly in the X-Valve. What happens? I don't remember what the different pieces to the Classic on/off are made of. Worst case I can think of is you get a few scratches in the on/off hole of the X-Valve, but the orings and careful installation should prevent this.

[XtraKargo]

Here goes.


X valve with LVL 7 froze. Not a single shot.

Classic with the lvl10. Cycled fine.

Bolts left alone from here on out.

Classic with lvl10 and rt on off. Back to the same as the video. Cycles and pauses before reseting.

X valve with level7 and reactor on off (I don't think I have a stock On/Off to the classic, and this dropped right in) leaked down the barrel but cycled as fine. Almost as fast as I could pull a mech trigger.

[nak81783]

What are the lengths of the RT and Reactor pins? It's OK if you don't have calipers. Just lay them side by side, and if there is any difference whatsoever, tell us which is longer how many Level 10 shims it takes to make up the difference in length.

Also, on the RT pin, what's the length of the head (as closely as you can measure with whatever measurement tool you have)?

Oh, and I can't get the video to work. It just takes me to some pictures on photobucket. I tried it on my iPhone and two computers.

[XtraKargo]

What are the lengths of the RT and Reactor pins? It's OK if you don't have calipers. Just lay them side by side, and if there is any difference whatsoever, tell us which is longer how many Level 10 shims it takes to make up the difference in length.

Also, on the RT pin, what's the length of the head (as closely as you can measure with whatever measurement tool you have)?

Oh, and I can't get the video to work. It just takes me to some pictures on photobucket. I tried it on my iPhone and two computers.

Looks to be the same to me.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/PINS.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/PINS.jpg.html)

[OPBN]

Looks to be the same to me.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/PINS.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/PINS.jpg.html)
Is it just me or does the pin on the left look bent?

[nak81783]

I'm guessing that's an optical illusion. Plus, it cycled in the Classic valve, which is exerting less force than the X-Valve. I would think any binding from a slight bend wouldn't have worked in the Classic valve.

Open up the two halves of the RT on/off assembly. Anything inside that shouldn't be?

[XtraKargo]

It seems to lean some when stood on end. Maybe it is but it does seem to line up and do the job.

[XtraKargo]

I'm guessing that's an optical illusion. Plus, it cycled in the Classic valve, which is exerting less force than the X-Valve. I would think any binding from a slight bend wouldn't have worked in the Classic valve.

Open up the two halves of the RT on/off assembly. Anything inside that shouldn't be?

Not really. It looks good to me. The bottom has some wear on the outside. But nothing major.

[OPBN]

The RT in the classic had issues as well as in the X. On/off seems to be the culprit. Where the shaft meets the larger section looks bent.

[nak81783]

You're right. I didn't thoroughly read the answers to my own questions. Good catch.

[XtraKargo]

You're right. I didn't thoroughly read the answers to my own questions. Good catch.


Fresh RT PIN Anyone. The center one is from my Retro Valve. Same size, and looks truer to form.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/pinsagain.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/pinsagain.jpg.html)

[OPBN]

Yeah that pin on the left is definitely bent. Try swapping the on/off into the X and see what happens.

[nak81783]

WAIT! If we don't figure out why, it might just bend the other pin.

[nak81783]

Concerning the on/off bottoms in the picture, is the left one the one that was in the pneumag?

[OPBN]

Probably forgot to pull the trigger when pulling the X out and bent it.

[XtraKargo]

The cause of the bent pin may be from my Pneu and when I release the Valve. I have to unscrew the body as well as the valve then push the pin the rest of the way.

The Retro wouldn't have that issue.

[XtraKargo]

Concerning the on/off bottoms in the picture, is the left one the one that was in the pneumag?

Yes.

[nak81783]

I'll look at my on/off bottoms tonight. I don't think they're that chewed up. LPR too high? I don't have a pneumag, so I don't know. It might be simply from use and rate of fire.

Why it worked in the ULE but not the XMT, I'm still not sure. Are the holes that the on/off pin goes through in the same spot relative to the rail bushing? Are they the same diameter? Do you see any wear around the XMT hole that's not seen on the ULE? Or maybe the ULE has been beat into submission?

[XtraKargo]

I'll look at my on/off bottoms tonight. I don't think they're that chewed up. LPR too high? I don't have a pneumag, so I don't know. It might be simply from use and rate of fire.

Why it worked in the ULE but not the XMT, I'm still not sure. Are the holes that the on/off pin goes through in the same spot relative to the rail bushing? Are they the same diameter? Do you see any wear around the XMT hole that's not seen on the ULE? Or maybe the ULE has been beat into submission?

I think OPBN can share in this pain :tard: I left the sear out one day and caused that issue. Full auto and sheared a pin.

[nak81783]

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/pneumag_5fps.gif

This is my only understanding of a pneumag. Is yours set up differently? I need more details. How did this happen? And why does the bent pin still work in one body and not the other?

[OPBN]

I think OPBN can share in this pain :tard: I left the sear out one day and caused that issue. Full auto and sheared a pin.

I did do this one as well. Couple of suggestions on the pneu. Drill a hole in front of the FS screw. It will allow you to use an Allen key to push the back of the sear up and degass the valve. Another option is to take a grip panel off and manually trip the sear before trying to disassemble.

[XtraKargo]

Another option is to take a grip panel off and manually trip the sear before trying to disassemble.

I am learning this tip during all this testing actually, much easier. I will remember it for sure.

No sear left the pin to do what it wanted, bouncing inside the frame. Plus like a dumb dumb, I kept thinking it would come out of it somehow (thinking the FullAuto effect was interesting) and gassed up and degassed 3 times before I noticed the sear on the bench.

[XtraKargo]

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/pneumag_5fps.gif

This is my only understanding of a pneumag. Is yours set up differently? I need more details. How did this happen? And why does the bent pin still work in one body and not the other?

May be similar in function but not the same setup. I got a cheater from the first production with Zap a few years back.

[nak81783]

I did do this one as well. Couple of suggestions on the pneu. Drill a hole in front of the FS screw. It will allow you to use an Allen key to push the back of the sear up and degass the valve. Another option is to take a grip panel off and manually trip the sear before trying to disassemble.

Why doesn't it just bleed off like normal when the tank is unscrewed?

Or do you mean just to push the on/off pin up, so the valve can be removed?

Still don't understand why the bent pin worked in one body and not the other? Must understand why...

[XtraKargo]

On a Pneu without air to trip the Pneu the pin remains down when the marker is degassed.
On trick I have been doing is as I am degassing flicking the trigger since and it pushes the pin back up. Not always reliably thou.

[OPBN]

Why doesn't it just bleed off like normal when the tank is unscrewed?

Or do you mean just to push the on/off pin up, so the valve can be removed?

Still don't understand why the bent pin worked in one body and not the other? Must understand why...

Yes and no. You're right in a regular pneu setup it does just push the pin up. I was mixing it up with my external reg'd one that has to have the sear tripped to degas. It will degas on its own eventually, but if I want to disassemble right away I have to trip it.

[nak81783]

Still don't understand why the bent pin worked in one body and not the other? Must understand why...

It's eating me up inside.

[XtraKargo]

It's eating me up inside.

LOL!!

This is where I have been for about a week now with the XMT body.

[OPBN]

It's eating me up inside.

Maybe the pin was just in the right angle? I come to realize that sometimes s..t just happens. I swear I have had markers that didn't work. I took them apart and put them back together changing nothing and they magically start working. Gremlins.

[nak81783]

OK. I guess I can live with that if XtraKargo lets us know all is well with the new pin. Or did I miss that report? Rereading this, I missed quite a bit, because we were all posting at the same time.

[XtraKargo]

OK. I guess I can live with that if XtraKargo lets us know all is well with the new pin. Or did I miss that report? Rereading this, I missed quite a bit, because we were all posting at the same time.

Well that was what I wanted to know for sure. Which valve/rail/etc... did you want it in?

[nak81783]

I want all your stuff to work right. Run it through the gamut.

[OPBN]

Try the retro with the good pin in the XMT body. If it works take the on/off out and put it in the X and try it in the XMT body again. Process of elimination.

[need4reebs]

Try the retro with the good pinninthe XMT body. If it works take the on/off out and out it I the x and try it I the XMT body again. Process of elimination.

dood are you eating paint chips yo:tard:? "take the on/off out and out it I the x and try it I the XMT body again"....haha...how do you do that? is that stickied somewhere???:rofl:

[nak81783]

dood are you eating paint chips yo:tard:? "take the on/off out and out it I the x and try it I the XMT body again"....haha...how do you do that? is that stickied somewhere???:rofl:

I blame all that stuff on Siri. My wife once iMessaged me to "Confetti. me with cream cheese frosting". I thought she was on ecstasy...

[OPBN]

I blame all that stuff on Siri. My wife once iMessaged me to "Confetti. me with cream cheese frosting". I thought she was on ecstasy...

Think I did that once.... My wife, not yours just to be clear.

[nak81783]

Needless to say, after she corrected Siri, I wasn't so excited.

[XtraKargo]

I blame all that stuff on Siri. My wife once iMessaged me to "Confetti. me with cream cheese frosting". I thought she was on ecstasy...

LOL!!! Not sure where the thread is headed, but that, sir was hilarious!

[XtraKargo]

Soooooo, hear me out on this.

I returned all bolts to their own valves.

Retro Valve - LVL7 - Straight Pin and ON/OFF that was not mauled in the searless lashing of '13... - one shot, bolt stick - trigger firm. Removed Valve before it fired one and done again.
X-Valve - LVL10 - 1 Carrier no shims - And the same On/Off assembly. - one shot, bolt stick - trigger firm.
Moved on to the Classic Valve - LVL-7 - and the same On/Off assembly. - one shot, bolt stick - trigger firm.:confused:

This is on the Minimag rail with the standard sear assembly...

[nak81783]

You're positive it was the good pin and on/off assembly?

If so:

1. Do the same tests but with the Reactor on/off that you had in your Classic valve.

2. I know you slip fit the bolt to make sure there were no burrs, but try assembling the marker with the muzzle pointed up and without a bolt spring. When snugly assembled, tip the marker muzzle down. Does the bolt fall forward? May need to take out the bolt stem oring, so you don't get a false result from oring friction.

[XtraKargo]

You're positive it was the good pin and on/off assembly? Yes sir, was working well in the marker I had assembled for the Retro Valve.

If so:

1. Do the same tests but with the Reactor on/off that you had in your Classic valve.Lights out for the wee ones, so this test will need to be done tomorrow. Will post up my findings

2. I know you slip fit the bolt to make sure there were no burrs, but try assembling the marker with the muzzle pointed up and without a bolt spring. When snugly assembled, tip the marker muzzle down. Does the bolt fall forward? May need to take out the bolt stem oring, so you don't get a false result from oring friction. This sounds interesting, and quiet. I will get started on this.

Thanks, again. May not hear back from me tonight, but I will let you know my findings.

[XtraKargo]

2. I know you slip fit the bolt to make sure there were no burrs, but try assembling the marker with the muzzle pointed up and without a bolt spring. When snugly assembled, tip the marker muzzle down. Does the bolt fall forward? May need to take out the bolt stem oring, so you don't get a false result from oring friction.

Yes it drops. No Spring, No O-Ring. X-Valve LVL10. Leaks air like an SOB thou.... :D

[XtraKargo]

Now on to the Reactor On/Off.

Classic Valve - LVL7 - Cycles just fine.

X-Valve - LVL10 - Cycles fine but doesn't seem as quick as the Classic to me. I am not sure how it would try and recharge a straight pin - and may need more education on this fact.

Retro Valve - LVL7 - Fired once - then the concave portion of the pin got lodged in the teflon o-ring in between the On/Off top and bottom and would not drop until I remove the valve... I was fairly certain that was used for a finger grip, and it was supposed to be facing out.

Again, XMT Body-Minimag Rail - standard sear.

[XtraKargo]

Thanks for looking.

[nak81783]

Now on to the Reactor On/Off.

Classic Valve - LVL7 - Cycles just fine.

X-Valve - LVL10 - Cycles fine but doesn't seem as quick as the Classic to me. I am not sure how it would try and recharge a straight pin - and may need more education on this fact.

Retro Valve - LVL7 - Fired once - then the concave portion of the pin got lodged in the teflon o-ring in between the On/Off top and bottom and would not drop until I remove the valve... I was fairly certain that was used for a finger grip, and it was supposed to be facing out.

Again, XMT Body-Minimag Rail - standard sear.

Could you repeat this with the Reactor pin the proper way, please? Want to make sure we have clean data.

[XtraKargo]

The Retro Valve gives a firm trigger now but no shots fired. The pin is not getting caught now. (For a test I reversed the pin and it fires sporadically- but the bolt moves fine, so I put it back correctly with a urethane O ring instead of the Teflon to test, giving the firm trigger)

The Retro has a single O ring for the top of the on/off. The Classic and X have an inner and outer. If that makes a difference.

[nak81783]

Running out of ideas. But one more thing to try for now. Wear adequate personal protection equipment.

Using X-Valve, Level 10 (make sure pressure is turned up high enough to make it work), good RT on/off assembly and pin, Minimag rail, and standard sear, put the marker together and air up. Unscrew both field strip screws 1/8 turn. Grasp the body firmly with one hand while holding firmly onto the grip frame with the other hand. While repeatedly pulling the trigger, rock the body in multiple directions and rotations. Use some force, but you're not looking to rip the body off the rail. Report what happens.

Unscrew both screws another 1/8 turn. Report what happens.

Repeat until the screws are, at most (in my opinion), 1/2 turn from how you had it originally snugly assembled.

I'm thinking a total of 1/2 turn will be enough to loosen things up but not let things come apart. Feel this out. The decision on how far to go is yours.

All I can think of is there is some interaction with the XMT body and the difference between the on/off bottom (RT vs. Classic) that is causing the binding. RT on/off bottom is radiused to match the diameter of the valve in that area. Classic on/off bottom is flat (assuming Reactor on/off is the same).

I know this was touched upon at the beginning of the thread, but I'm hoping the contorting of the body while repeatedly pulling the trigger will let you deduce where the binding is occurring. Also, by how far you have to unthread the screws and force the body, it will give a general indication of how bad the binding is.

Good luck.

[OPBN]

Have to admit, I haven't a clue at this point. (not that I did to begin with) Just not sure how the on/off could be the issue unless it has something to do, as suggested earlier, with pin length. Maybe worth seeing if XMT or BE would be willing to take a look at it to see what the deal is.

[XtraKargo]

Running out of ideas. But one more thing to try for now. Wear adequate personal protection equipment.

Using X-Valve, Level 10 (make sure pressure is turned up high enough to make it work), good RT on/off assembly and pin, Minimag rail, and standard sear, put the marker together and air up. Unscrew both field strip screws 1/8 turn. Grasp the body firmly with one hand while holding firmly onto the grip frame with the other hand. While repeatedly pulling the trigger, rock the body in multiple directions and rotations. Use some force, but you're not looking to rip the body off the rail. Report what happens.

Unscrew both screws another 1/8 turn. Report what happens.

Repeat until the screws are, at most (in my opinion), 1/2 turn from how you had it originally snugly assembled.

I'm thinking a total of 1/2 turn will be enough to loosen things up but not let things come apart. Feel this out. The decision on how far to go is yours.

All I can think of is there is some interaction with the XMT body and the difference between the on/off bottom (RT vs. Classic) that is causing the binding. RT on/off bottom is radiused to match the diameter of the valve in that area. Classic on/off bottom is flat (assuming Reactor on/off is the same).

I know this was touched upon at the beginning of the thread, but I'm hoping the contorting of the body while repeatedly pulling the trigger will let you deduce where the binding is occurring. Also, by how far you have to unthread the screws and force the body, it will give a general indication of how bad the binding is.

Good luck.

So to confirm my findings (or lack there of) I took the XValve and tuned it in the Minimag, as if it were stock, and got it firing without leaks with the good on/off. removed Minimag body, set the XMT Body. Fired a single shot. froze with trigger pressure, began S L O W L Y backing out the two screws once I reached a full half turn out, and trying to move the valve or the body, with no result I degassed, pulled the trigger, the pin released, confirmed the play in the body and the valve. Gassed it back up, and it still did not fire. Nothing was removed completely, only the two screws were loosened, and the trigger was firm again.

I am stumped yet again...

edit: I know sometimes when there is a LVL 10 issue there has been requests to poke the bolt with a squeegee - made no difference. I just remembered doing this also during the loose body test.

[Ando]

I'll try my Mag-Fu skills.

Main problem is the xvalve not working in the XMT body right?

And your using a pneumatic frame?

[XtraKargo]

Originally yes, but to isolate if there was any issues with pneu setup we moved the XMT and the XValve to Minimag Rail and a standard sear.

[nak81783]

Cover the sear portion that engages the on/off pin with permanent marker. Pull the trigger a few dozen time with the marker aired up. Take a picture of the sear. Hopefully there will be witness marks of where the contact is taking place.

Repeat ceteris paribus, except use Reactor on/off assembly.

Post both pics.

[XtraKargo]

Cover the sear portion that engages the on/off pin with permanent marker. Pull the trigger a few dozen time with the marker aired up. Take a picture of the sear. Hopefully there will be witness marks of where the contact is taking place.

Repeat ceteris paribus, except use Reactor on/off assembly.

Post both pics.

You asked earlier about the Reactor and if it was flat. Here are some pics of it as well.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/Reactorin.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/Reactorin.jpg.html)

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/Reactorout.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/Reactorout.jpg.html)

RT on off - in the X-Valve. Didn't fire a shot. Trigger firm.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/RTSear.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/RTSear.jpg.html)

Reactor on off in the x - cycled fine.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/ReatorSear.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/ReatorSear.jpg.html)

[nak81783]

Take a dremel or file and open up the width of the slot on the BAD RT on/off bottom equal distances in both directions from center. I figure this one is already chewed up a little, so you might be willing to modify this one. If you are able, make it about the size of the round partial hole that the back of the sear comes up through in the rail. If it's already that width, open it up about .030" in both directions. You may need to go further later.

Reinstall with good pin.

Try again.

If you want to get an explanation first, please post pics of all three on/offs, side by side, with them all sitting on a flat surface on their tops, without the top orings. Orient the RT on/offs such that the picture can view the width of the slot on the RT on/off bottoms.

Or black marker the edges of the slot and some of the bottom around the slot on the bottom of the RT on/off. Repeat the trigger pull exercise. See if you see witness marks on the on/off bottom.

[XtraKargo]

If you want to get an explanation first, please post pics of all three on/offs, side by side, with them all sitting on a flat surface on their tops, without the top orings. Orient the RT on/offs such that the picture can view the width of the slot on the RT on/off bottoms.


Yes, please.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/tops.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/tops.jpg.html)

[nak81783]

So my hypothesis is that the slot in the XMT body, through which the front of the sear travels, is slightly off center, such that when the marker is fully assembled, the front of the sear may be deflected off to one side. When that happens, the back of the sear goes the other way off center. For the RT on/off to work, the back of the sear must travel up into the RT on/off bottom slot. It can't do that if it's pushed off to the side. However, the pin can still push on a portion of the back of the sear to give you a firm trigger. Also, since you can't push the back of the sear all the way up, the front of the sear can't come all the way down to release the bolt.

The Reactor on/off works because it's flat bottomed. Sear back doesn't have to fit up into a slot to complete a trigger pull.

Root cause corrective action would be to widen the slot on the XMT body, but I figure it'd be easier and cheaper to manipulate that galled up on/off bottom...just in case I'm wrong.

Blackened rear sear pictures are hard to decipher, but in the one from the RT on/off, I think I see wear where the pin hit and on the edge where I think it's catching the on/off bottom slot edge.

[XtraKargo]

So rather than widen, could I sand the top flat with bottom of the slot?

[nak81783]

I would NOT do that. The bottom radius is required to hold the overall height at which the on/off top orings are set. Not sure what would happen. Might lead to reactivity/bounce issues.

[nak81783]

Actually, you'd be making it shorter, while the pin stays the same length. Probably would cause a long, sticky pull or not be able to recharge, rather than bounce, but I'm getting tired; what do I know? I'd stick with widening the slot.

[XtraKargo]

Actually, you'd be making it shorter, while the pin stays the same length. Probably would cause a long, sticky pull or not be able to recharge, rather than bounce, but I'm getting tired; what do I know? I'd stick with widening the slot.

Well I am calling it for the night as well. I can scribe the lines with a pick with the bad on off and match the XMT rear sear hole.

[nak81783]

Do you mean the RT on/off slot is already wide enough to accept anything that fits through the XMT sear hole? Or do you mean that's how wide you're going to make it?

Yeah, I need to hit the hay as well. I'm working on the house over the weekend, so I probably won't be very responsive.

Good luck.

[nak81783]

Oh, and that pic of the 3 on/off's, I wasn't quite clear enough in the orientation. Rotate the 2 RT's 90 degrees, and take the pic from the side, such that I can see through the slots to compare their height from the table to the overall height of the Reactor.

...if that makes sense.

[XtraKargo]

Do you mean the RT on/off slot is already wide enough to accept anything that fits through the XMT sear hole? Or do you mean that's how wide you're going to make it?

Yeah, I need to hit the hay as well. I'm working on the house over the weekend, so I probably won't be very responsive. no worries, have fun around the house. I enjoy doing that almost as much as paintball.

Good luck. I was thinking this after first impression, but i follow what your saying now. Just a little wider each pass.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/slot.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/slot.jpg.html)



Oh, and that pic of the 3 on/off's, I wasn't quite clear enough in the orientation. Rotate the 2 RT's 90 degrees, and take the pic from the side, such that I can see through the slots to compare their height from the table to the overall height of the Reactor.

...if that makes sense.
here you are.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/onoffs.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/onoffs.jpg.html)

[OPBN]

I ran into a situation on a body where the hole in the body where the back of the sear pushed through was a little off and the sear could to fit through and push the on/off pin properly. Does the back of the sear fit through the hole properly? Assemble the marker except the valve and pull the trigger. Does the protrusion on the back of the sear fit through the hole?

[nak81783]

I ran into a situation on a body where the hole in the body where the back of the sear pushed through was a little off and the sear could to fit through and push the on/off pin properly. Does the back of the sear fit through the hole properly? Assemble the marker except the valve and pull the trigger. Does the protrusion on the back of the sear fit through the hole?

I was struggling with this too, but since the larger Reactor pin cycles, I shifted gears to what's different about other aspects of the geometry.

[OPBN]

I was struggling with this too, but since the larger Reactor pin cycles, I shifted gears to what's different about other aspects of the geometry.

Does the pin protrude through the hole farther? Also if there is actually a milling issue with the body pretty sure XMT will stand behind his work and make it right.

[XtraKargo]

It comes thru the body the same amount as the Minimag body. I used a pick to scribe a line. If there is a second one then they are touching each other, side by side.


Does the pin protrude through the hole farther? Also if there is actually a milling issue with the body pretty sure XMT will stand behind his work and make it right.

[Ando]

X valve with LVL 7 froze. Not a single shot.

Classic with the lvl10. Cycled fine.

Bolts left alone from here on out.

Classic with lvl10 and rt on off. Back to the same as the video. Cycles and pauses before reseting.

X valve with level7 and reactor on off (I don't think I have a stock On/Off to the classic, and this dropped right in) leaked down the barrel but cycled as fine. Almost as fast as I could pull a mech trigger.

You've basically narrowed it down to your RT on/off here. Do you have a spare or a rebuild kit for the orings?

Edit:

I would also retune the lvl10 with a new carrier oring on GP. You might have a bad oring causing you to use a smaller carrier cause everything you're describing with the bolt hanging up on the return is caused by a tight carrier. Remember all the basics...no shims installed, use the gold spring, stock on/off and a mech frame when tuning. Install the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you're still having reset issues, then add shims to compensate. (I haven't read every post but you've already tried shims right)?


Originally yes, but to isolate if there was any issues with pneu setup we moved the XMT and the XValve to Minimag Rail and a standard sear.

Are you using a mech frame or are you still using the pneumatic frame when doing all this troubleshooting?

Good old acronym. K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid

Take every variable out of the equation and then run your tests.


And just for good measure I tried the longer spring.
Hmm...are you using the stock silver spring as is?

If so....don't. They weren't mention to be used as is, will cause you more issues and def make you shoot hot.

[XtraKargo]

You've basically narrowed it down to your RT on/off here. Do you have a spare or a rebuild kit for the orings?

Edit:

I would also retune the lvl10 with a new carrier oring on GP. You might have a bad oring causing you to use a smaller carrier cause everything you're describing with the bolt hanging up on the return is caused by a tight carrier. Remember all the basics...no shims installed, use the gold spring, stock on/off and a mech frame when tuning. Install the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you're still having reset issues, then add shims to compensate. (I haven't read every post but you've already tried shims right)? changed the O ring,and I read one post in the LVL10 guide when tuning not to mess with the shims, they could create more issues.

Here is the link i used.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?43538-**-Official-Level-10-Problems-Thread-**&p=2828797#post2828797


Now I don't have a set of digital calipers, but my old ones show it as just shy 1/16th, and they both are the same, the calipers slides right off of one and onto the other. With the carrier I stepped up to 1.5 and it leaked so I went back to a 1. (granted this is a fresh o-ring to, in my troubleshooting on my own, I figured why not, to see what happens without shims and where I end up on carriers. really was good refresher on the LVL10 also.) I would venture to say this one is a .750 since it just touches the 3/4 mark. I will have to pull my Retro Valve out of storage to see if it is different or not.

With the Velocity turned all the way up it still sticks, and it appears to rub on the upper portion of the body where the outer rim of the bolt pushes against the top (that is the only part that looks scored, but mildly so, a darker grey color). The breech still looks clean. I wondered about the LVL7 myself, if it would make a difference.




Are you using a mech frame or are you still using the pneumatic frame when doing all this troubleshooting? the pneumag is my primary and was where it all began for testing purposes we moved back to a Minimag I had setup for my wife, which now I realize could have been tuned a little better in the sear and corrected that :) Not that she would notice, but hey, why not.

Good old acronym. K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid

Take every variable out of the equation and then run your tests.


Hmm...are you using the stock silver spring as is?the silver one was used briefly at higher velocities to try and force the bolt down the body I was using one in my primary for a while, to try and be softer on paint (but I think in further study of the LVL 10 and how it should be set up that isn't necessary.)

If so....don't. They weren't mention to be used as is, will cause you more issues and def make you shoot hot.

Thanks Ando! :D

[XtraKargo]

Or black marker the edges of the slot and some of the bottom around the slot on the bottom of the RT on/off. Repeat the trigger pull exercise. See if you see witness marks on the on/off bottom.
I Couldn't see anything,
before
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/IMG_2168.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/IMG_2168.jpg.html)

after with one shot fired, and pressure, and kept pulling the trigger to see if it makes a mark...

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/IMG_2169.jpg (http://s697.photobucket.com/user/WadeKarg/media/IMG_2169.jpg.html)

and more to prove my sanity:tard:, a small video demo...

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/th_IMG_2170.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/IMG_2170.mp4)

I am walking away from it a bit today. Thanks again.

[nak81783]

I know the black marker didn't show much, but I'd still open up that slot width. The black marker (similar to dykem) is a machining tactic for knowing when you're making contact between cutter and work piece. If there's not enough abrasive action, it may not remove the black. That was just something to try, because if it did show wear, it would be obvious.

In my opinion, altering a $13 part is cheap insurance to make that body (I'm assuming $100+) work.

[XtraKargo]

It is shooting, used the Dremel and opened up the RT Bottom slot some, adjusted the depth of the throw on a sear by shaving some away from the back near the pin, sanded the bottom of the boss area where the frame screw threads in the front, the front frame screw (body) is 1/4 to an 1/8th a turn out and the thumb screw is over a half turn out, but it is shooting!!!:clap::headbang::shooting:

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/th_IMG_2172.jpg (http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv334/WadeKarg/IMG_2172.mp4)

[nak81783]

Strong work!

Just out of curiosity, can you describe the order of things you did and why you chose to do so?

Do you plan to keep it as is, or request a fix or replacement?

[XtraKargo]

So I started with the RT bottom and it was close to the bottom of the slot but still a little bit above, of course each time I adjusted something I would place it in a working MAG, to check. So I took to the RT bottom again and could get it to fire.

When I held the AGD ULE And the XMT boss to boss against the bodies there was a bit of air in the AGD favor, strong on the XMT side but very little.

As well I thought the sear may have needed some more clearance but I went back to my regular sear in the pneumag setup.

I have it in a rhythm now, but the front screw is not tight and the thumb screw as well is better than half a turn out. I know when it will fire because I can hear the bolt set in, but once it does it goes pretty well. (Would you guys play this way?)

Not sure XMT would honor a body that I purchased second hand or not. I certainly wouldn't hold it against him, or the person I bought it from. The classic valve worked superb. Who knew an RT On/Off would be this difficult?

[nak81783]

My buddy just bought a marker from XMT. I went with to check it out, say hi, and see his shop. XMT said to get ahold of him if you're having issues.

[XtraKargo]

Once I get the LVL 10 tuned I believe it will be just fine.

Took it out this weekend - everything tightened down, in my Pneumag rig and it was shooting over 300 - but it was the larger spring. The silver one

When I used the Gold one it was much lower but not reseting quite right. Need4Reebs posted a little bit ago about a previous post and tuning Pneumags. I may try taking the silver sprung down a notch or two and see what happens.

But I am perfectly happy with the body. I would of loved to see the shop.

I will say this - as a added note for those keeping track - BE gave me a tip about lining the body where it touches the rail with a layer of masking tape. That was when I could tighten it all down and with the silver spring things were cycling fine (till I hit a chrono) our field has some ladies who like to play as well as younger children so our field limit is 285fps. When I start sending 315 over the chrono they tend to cringe :)

Thanks for the heads up, Nathan. I really appreciate the help. Great support here on AO and BEO. :hail: