Serious Issue: Anger on the Field

[FatMan]

Hello AO'ers!

I have a serious issue to ask about. Have you experienced or witnessed anger on the paintball field? I'm not talking about the "Darn, I got hit" or "Shucks, I missed that guy" or "Gosh, my marker broke" kind of anger (hope that makes it through the filter :rolleyes: ). No, I'm talking about ANGER. Yelling, cursing, throwing things, refusing to shake hands after a game. Anger.

Is there any room for anger in paintball? Paintball is an aggressive sport. We are out there to eliminate our opponent. There is taunting, there is testosterone, there is adreneline, we get all pumped up. But after the game, we are usually laughing and shaking hands "Yeah, you got me! WooHoo, but I sure got him!" and all that stuff.

But what about the times when things don't go so well? "I KNOW I got him, I SAW it break!" or "That's out of bounds!" or "I'm OUT! I held my hand up, why are you still shooting me?" or "That gun is HOT! Look at the welt it gave me!" Its really hard to keep cool in some of these circumstances, but how do you react? How do others react?

At our club's field we don't tolerate anger. All games are friendly games, and if something goes wrong, we assume it was a mistake. Recently we had an incident with a new member who became enraged when he thought a player had gone out of bounds and then came back in to eliminate him. Turns out he didn't understand the boundaries - it was a legal move - but the issue is he got into a shouting match with the ref. We dealt with that. The player now knows what we expect at our field.

What about at commercial fields? I've witnessed that kind of thing many, many times at commercial fields. How about you? Do you witness this kind of thing? How do you feel about it? I'd like to get your opinions and feelings on this.

Hope to hear from you all,

FatMan

[manike]

I think it is one of the bad issues that is holding our sport back.

It should not be tolerated. Swearing abuse should invoke a 1-4-1 and physical acts should be punished much more severely.

People need to conduct themselves better. I look to Rugby as a reference, it is a very physical and adrenalin filled sport, but if you swear you are penalised. If you commit acts of violence you are sent off and suspended, sometimes even done for assault.

There is no need for it in paintball it just drags our sport down.

manike

[synreal]

I agree that aggressive behavior and paintball go almost hand in hand (we are shooting large, painfull objects at eachother at very high speeds for crying out loud), but this is no excuse for rude inappropriate actions. You can be plenty intimidating and aggressive and still be civil about it, play hard but play nice.

One key factor that I feel is in play is yelling, its just a fact of the game, you yell to communicate, you simply have to. It's rather tough to yell at someone in a loving tone (possible, maybe, but I haven't perfected the art yet ;) ) And since most emotions tend to snowball, it is easy to see how you screaming commands to your team, and trash talk to the other can evolve into something a bit hostile. Yelling by nature is a bit hostile, add to this "guns", adrenaline and a healthy dose of men and women eager the rush onto the battlefield to destroy the opposition and you can see how things can/will get carried away.

Is this an excuse? Not at all, but in the heat of "battle" it is easy to get lost in our emotional response to the situation around us. We are putting our bodies into a fight or flight situation and expecting them to behave normally, this isn't going to happen most of the time.

We as players just need to remember that no matter how much pride/prizes/free booze will be ours if we win the game, in the end it is just that, a game. If the sport is no longer fun because you are too busy being p***ed at the other team to enjoy yourself, then what is the point in playing at all? Feel free to put a little extra paint on wipers, or tell the ref that a man broke the rules, but try not to fly off the handle over what may turn out to be a non-existent issue or a simple misunderstanding.

[manike]

I think yelling is not really the point here. That's not the same as showing anger, cussing or being physically violent which happens far too often in this sport in my opinion.

Throwing equipment is downrigh dangerous. I think people that throw guns with tanks attached should be banned for a year. I don't want to be on the field with anyone who is going to risk my life. I think a year is just long enough for them to contemplate how stupid they were. This should be rigorously enforced on the pro's also... :rolleyes:

manike

[Spaceman613]

We toyed with a "red card" and "yellow card" for a local tourney. We HATE when things get out of hand and when it does, we "strongly urge" the hostile people to leave the field or sit for a while. Usually thats all it takes.

But I really think that the only way paintball will grow is to improve the language and attitudes. I see videos of NPPL games, and the swearing is horrible. I can understand one slip onow and then, but constant and loud swearing needs to be punished. If it grows into physical contact... Well then the player should be banned for a specified time.

Also, sponsors need to look at their teams. I would never sponsor a team that has a reputation for bad attitudes.

Maybe the curcuits need to start fining people. Money and winning seem to be high on the priority lists. So hit them where it counts. Points deductions and cash.... Heck, give the cash to charity or use it to pay refs... Just do something to clean up the language and attitudes on the tourney fields...

[synreal]

I agree completely that throwing equipment is both ludicrously childish and very dangerous (I don't feel like getting hit by shrapnel from some kid's tank because he got marked, ticked off, threw his rig at the ground a hit a rock), and should be dealt with appropriately.

But, I also think that next to safety, keeping your mind/body/anger in check while you are on the field is one of your most important task when you play. I you get lit up, chances are you are going to be a bit upset, people just have to be conscious of it and learn to do something productive with that energy (like making it to the 50 off the break) instead of throwing a hissy fit.

[Potatoboy]

I agree with manike in the regard that throwing a marker with a tank attached should be a bannable offense.

Even in the heat of the moment one has to remember that if you crack the neck on one of these tanks you've just created a missle.

I think that the type of aggressive behavior talked about in this thread hurts our very fun, relatively harmless sport, and can turn it into a very dangerous affair.

[tremis]

I have always thought the best way to handle problems with the other team is through the head ref of the particular field you are on. If you approach them in a proffesional manner they are more likely to do something. You go to them screaming and they are likely to tell you to shut up or you'll get the boot. Not really a solution to being wronged by the other team. Maybe thats why cheating works so well. Team A cheats against team B. team B throws a fit, refs tell team B they are about to get kicked out for being unsportsmanlike. Team A now are the good guys.
Now as far as players on my team, I get angry with them. Its not the refs job to tell them they are being stupid, that would be mine. This great sport of ours is not cheap. Not by a long shot, in fact its the most expensive hobby that anybody I know has. So when One of my guys does something stupid and it wastes my money, I'm gonna get mad. I never had rich folks who bought me anything I wanted, and Now I work really hard for my money. In my eyes, somebody wasting my money is no different than somebody stealing my money. I have never been in a physical altercation with a teamate, but yelling and screaming has occured. At the Pitt NPPL in 97 in the middle of the 5 man, we kicked a guy off our team, told him to get his crap and beat it. All for doing stupid stuff. Its fine for him to throw his money away, not mine. But then again, you always hear about families that fight amongst themselves, but nobody else dare fight with one of them. Similar situation here. These are my teamates, we'll handle our problems our way. It's not how we handle problems with others. I feel that I should handle problems in whatever way is most likely to help with that problem. The only place that I have found getting mad to work was within my own team. And that may not be the case with everyone, but it has been whats worked for my team.

Tremis

[gimp]

I get angry sometimes, but just at myself, you know, for not doing that cool move, or doing something wrong. All my own mistakes. I get frustrated a lot with other players, but oh well. I never start swearing and throwing markers and such. That never happens on my field either, we'd probably beat the guy up who did that. hehe

[gmag]

You always have to think of the impression these 'hotheads' make to newbies. I know that if I saw these actions when I was a newbie, I wouldn't be playing paintball right now. Never forget about the young kids watching onto the speedball field with awe-expressed faces, when you begin to curse and yell. Think of the impression you're making to the future of our sport.

And of course, safety is an issue. If someone throws down their marker and tank they have no regard for their own safety and the safety of the people around them. They should be sent home immediately...if not permanently banned.

~Brett

[hitech]

I did not witness it, but the field owners son at the field I play at was punched by another player. Needless to say the field owner was shocked and very concerned.

[Army]

As far as I know, nearly all league rules have sections about bad and/or dangerous behavior.

If a ref sees a gun being thrown down, I think that team should be eliminated on the spot, and all other teams adjusted in the rankings accordingly. This is such a severe safety issue, that it should not be taken lightly by anyone.

Excessive cussing should be a 1 for 1, same as arguing with a ref. All disagreements with a play or call should be done off the field in a neutral area.

I understand that paintball is an "extreme" sport, and the "anti-authority, hooligan behavior" baggage seems to accompany it. To be taken seriously at any level but ours, the rules must be fairly enforced with a strong hand. All too often you see a ref looking at a player and seeing this behavior, but doing nothing about it. If the head ref sees one of his refs not enforcing the rules, or favoring a friend, that ref should be eliminated too and his team penalized if he has one.

As long as nothing is done about safety or behavior issues, they will continue as "normal" until someone gets hurt badly, and THEN we will hear all the "How could this have happened?" crap. Let's take care of it now. If you see or hear someone being a jerk, tell him to knock it off. Sure you'll make some guys mad, so what. YOUR personal safety is a much greater concern than some dweebs show of bravado.

[cphilip]

Save your anger for your kid. He probably deserves it! Just kidding. ;)

Yes... well... I wasn't there when what Walt is describing happend and in fact was quite shocked when I heard about it because we never ever had an incident like that happen before. New guy first time out. I am a bit worried about this being an issue with him again. This same new group one of them had a real hot marker too. One of our guys took a nasty shot to the head and my kid one to the shoulder and the marker was checked at 380 fps after that. No it was not hot on purpose it seems. Malfunctioning reg is what we think.

You know I realy hate to see good equipment of any kind abused. We have kids out there who cannot afford to play and some spoiled brat ruins his. I say a piece of abused equipment should be immediately confiscated and donated to a poor kid who will apreciate it more! I quit Listening to Garth Brooks when he went into smashing guitars. I got no use for people ruining prefectly good things when others would love to have them.

[Hysperion]

Well i have to disagree with most of you here....what do mean language is holding our sport back? The main reason people don't want to try paintball is because you are running around shooting at people. This is not exactly politically correct and most soccer moms won't let there kids do it. And also the cost. I never played paintball until I got a job because I couldn't afford it. Paintball is a high intensity game and swearing goes hand in hand with that. When I get shot and it hurts I'll probably say some expletive. Ever watch a game of football? The players are swearing all the time.... In my opinion there is a difference between swearing, and using abusive language towards other people. And a very big difference in being abusive towards other people and actually getting physically violent. Most often you hear alot of swearing when someone gets lit up. It happens... The same with swearing: it happens - O well...I mean what is swearing hurting honestly. If we ban swearing I want to ban ghetto thug music (well not really but) where all the talk about is killing. And even more importantly ban country music at all fields, that hurts my ears much more then any swear ever could. And about breaking stuff the funniest incident I remember was when some huge 11 year old kid was playing his first game with a brand new angel his dad bought him. His teammates weren't moving up and he started to get pissed off so he took his angel and threw it in the dirt which in turn cracked his hopper in half that his dad had bought him 30 minutes earlier. At the end of the day his dad bought him a new revvy. :)

*I thought Tremis had a very good point about just talking to the head ref about swearing.*
I mean, if I'm swearing and someone politely asks me to stop I'll probably stop, especially if there's little kids around.

[Spaceman613]

I wasnt talking about swearing in the heat of the moment. I aadmit I do it sometimes. What I have a problem with is CONSTANT swearing for no reason whatsoever. I was watching a video of (I think) Gettyburg. One of the pros, a real young one. Got hit. He proceeded to stand up, walk and SCREAMED "F***" over and over.... This was excessive at the very least. I can understand if he said it just after he got hit, but he waited, and screamed it repeatedly. This makes us look bad. Why should these kids (yes kids) be able to get away with it on the paintball field when they wouldnt be able to do it anywhere else?

We arnt talking about general swearing, we all do it. But that doesnt include screaming it at the top of our lungs just for the sake of screaming it.

Also, we all said "ban the player" if they throw a marker or get into a fight, but there are so many leagues, that the player or team can just switch leagues. NPPL bans you, switch to another, its simple. There needs to be some cooperation in the different leagues. Not just with bad players, but with rules.

[FatMan]

I understand some of what's been said about swearing. Swearing too much makes you look rather juvenile, but I differentiate simply uttering curses and ANGER. And the funny thing is, the anger doesn't even have to be expressed overtly. I played at a field once and it came down to me an another guy, about 20ft appart. He was in a huge bunker and I was in a little one. I was in my heyday as far as my technique and I was snap-shooting to save my life. We went on for about 5min and several hundred rounds. Finally I caught the guy comming over the top - caught him right on the tip of his Flex-7 mask - broke the ball and deposited the load (blue, mind you) all over his mouth.

Now, I got up after that shoot-out and walked over to the guy laughing and saying "Dude, that was an awesome shoot out!" Mind you this was a rec game, not a tourney. I walked up to this guy, he turned and looked at me and that look said "I'd like to bash your face in right now!" I held out my hand to shake and said "Sorry about the paint in the mouth, man." but he just turned around, saying nothing. He was pissed off - at me!

So, he didn't swear, he didn't even yell, but he let anger ruin a great game. I can't tell you how many times I was on the other end and I ALWAYS come out with a grin and a pat on the back. Yeah, I might go over to the staging area and have a talk with myself about the stupid move I made to get shot, but that's not ANGER, that's self-criticism.

So, is ANGER a requisite part of our game? I know some players that are so serious about their paintball that they would say "YES, I have to be able to use ANGER to give me an edge. Every game matters to me - I want to WIN every time, or I'd rather not play." Luckily those guys don't play recball - they ONLY play tourney. So is that OK for tourney and not recball?

I think this is an important topic, but its also one we can easily just say "yeah, that stinks and we shouldn't do it" and go on as we were before, but it takes a bit more to take an honest look at ourselves and the people we play with and consider what is behind the behavior.

Keep up the posts, I'm learning a lot just listening to you guys. I'd really like to hear from some younger players too!

FatMan

[xmetal2001]

where I ref, people get mad quite a bit. Its not the more expierenced players, its usually the adult newbs that are coming out with some of their friends(not saying always them, but usually). I've had a couple guys argue with me about whether he took off his mask then threw his rental at me, or at the tree behind me, i dunno. Anyway, obviously they both were kicked out. Usually the anger problems are pretty easily resolved and just kind of a quick thing. I saw a guy whose wife got shota couple times on her way out and he got real mad and started yelling and running after the guy who did it. After the game they shook hands and apologized, it was just a misunderstanding. The thing is alot of paintball player are "intense" people and have a short temper. I try not to get mad and when reffing try to keep people as calm as i can.


Originally posted by FatMan
I'd really like to hear from some younger players too!

FatMan

I'm a younger player(15) and well above is my opinion, but i've noticed that alot of times either its the expierenced young kids, or the older newbs. I dunno why, it just seems that way. I guess because the older expierenced players are mature enough to relize that alot of things happen accidently in paintball and the younger newbs are often times too intimidated by the game and the other players to get mad.

[SlipknotX556]

ok i have witnessed that..... when i wuz playin someguy got hit and i called a paint check on him so the ref went over to look and all of a sudden i hear yellin. The guy i hit was so mad he started shootin at the ref, his barrel was on the ref. so i ran over to check on the ref and help him but before i could 2 other ppl where holdin him down.

[Havoc_online]

dang! I bet that guy got banded from the field, worst anger I've seen personally was a rich guy and his wife just getting into the sport thinking they could buy a great gun and be great, well he was bragging that his gun could shot 26rps(the RT of course) and he had never shot it till the first game, I think he was running like 1000psi with a 9v revy and all him and his wife were good for were shooting soup at 10ft. after that game he got his gun and his wife's gun and through them about 25ft. into the brush. he actually let some kids go get the guns and keep em. I think after that he bought 2 angels-when that did'nt work out I think he stopped playing for a while, lol.

[PaInTbALL zAcH]

i have a teamate like that and its really annoying. Sure i play hard but i play for fun. Im trying to help him though and hopefully its been helping...

[tremis]

I thought Tremis had a very good point about just talking to the head ref about swearing.*

Kind of a misquote here. I would never say a word to anybody about swearing. Three years in the navy left me immune to the effects of vulgarity. I was referring to what someone said about getting all fired up if somebody went out of bounds or played on. Those, I would take to the head ref. Opposing teams can pretty much say whatever they want, I dont care.

Tremis

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

people play paintball and they want to win. other's cheat and don't play fairly(paint checks, wiping, ect.) and this will upset the people that they play against. a lot of the time, as they keep getting away with it, the aggrivation of having to deal with other people ruining a friendly game just builds up and eventually they get to the point where they just take it out on whoever sets them off. i find that it's only really on the field where people lose their tempers. once they get off the field, it's a totally different story.

i'll admit that i sometimes lose my temper. i try not to actually get to aggressive with any particular person. there was one incident where i was yelling as i walked off the field. i managed not to curse but he could tell i was angry. i got shot up so i held up my gun(which got shot about 3 times) and yelled out i was out. the ref came over and yelled i was out so as i proceded to stand up to leave the field, i took two more to the head. i didn't direct anything towards, him, i didn't even look at him. i just turned and yelled for him to pay more attention. when he finally came off the field, he came directly to me and apologized. it was cool, i was calm so it really wasn't a big deal. just when it first happened, it hit me right in my ear so it hurt. i just got aggrivated that they didn't pay attention. it happens. people lose their tempers. i agree that there should be action so that people can/will control themselves, but we're only human. aggression is in our nature.

[hubadlatimmy]

Everybody here has done it at one time or another, yelled, swore, got in a potential fight situation with a player any of those. I don't think that swearing, and fighting on the field is acceptable but it happens. I know I get angry when I walk off the field and get drilled 5 times in the back by some spoiled kid with his angel who doesn't know anything. I am with you on the fact that most stuff shouldn't be tolereated but in some ways yelling is okay but usually it's a friendly atmosphere.

[talls]

Poor behavier by players should not be toleratd in rec ball or tournaments! I have seen many people throw their 1500 dollar gun against a bunker all because they got out. That is just immaturity at its highest IMHO. I think that there should be strict penaltys in tournaments when excessive cussing, throwing stuff, or any poor sportsmanship. Instead I have seen many in which no penalty at all was given. This just says that it will be tolerated and shows younger people to the sport that this is what is expected of them. I recently saw the aftershock vs. dynasty video of Mardi Gra and at the end they about got into a fight because of a one on one gone bad. The back player of I think dynasty (can't really remember) shot out the mid guy from aftershock but he kept coming. So the back guy kept shooting him and probably shot him 10 times. Well the guy tried charging him while yelling holy ****. What does this show?? Two high ranking teams fighting like a bunch of little kids. I am willing to bet to that the refs turned the other way when penaltys could have been given. That is one of the reasons I do not like the NPPL as much as local leagues. Not to mention that cheating runs rampent and is sometimes so obvious that it sickens me. Well it is late and I am getting too worked up but I think you get my opinion on the matter.

Oh and I am not saying that all NPPL teams cheat, but there are a few on some of the teams that do it every time they get the chance.

[polorboy]

Most people will get upset during playing paintball. If for examle I am out and I get lit up while I am walking off I will get a little, shall I say, steamed. So I will shout at the person making sure that they know that I am out. Later we laugh about it. But, I like it how Rose from Team Ground Zero told me. When we enter the feild you become my worst enemy, before hand and after we may be the best of freinds but as soon as I cross that line we are complete enemies. When you are playing you are out to get the person, not to say "is it ok if I shoot you now?". If you play like that then you are gaurenteed to lose. You have to go out there, especialy in tournaments, and go for the kill. Afterwards you can be nice and freindly with each other. Every team that I have played has been the same way. You guys should see Ground Zero practice, it is like they are all arch enemies on the feild. As soon as they get off the feild they are still friends. People who hold a grudge after a game are just dumb, I mean for goodness sake it is JUST A GAME! Still there is going to be anger while playing the game, now people should not be throughing guns and other such equipment out of anger. Usualy your whole team gets disqualified if someone does that. I know I have seen it happen.

edit:
Mountaindude, there is no need to take this personaly. It seems to me like you have a guilty conscience :D. hehe LOL J/K

[Rahman]

I've actually had a minor atercations before nothing major..
This one time playing centerflag in the woods I was actually the flag runner and as I was running for the opposing teams station to make the hang flag in hand, I got shot in the chest iwent down put my hands up as I put them up I got shot another five-seven times I was really heated about that , I didn't curse or single anyone out but I did hollar rather harshly in the general direction of the four kids that shot me, I was much bigger then them so they really didn't say any thing but I did feel bad I wasn't trying to be PR1*K I was just standing my ground..

[DJSOLID]

This is a huge can of worms that you guys have opened: but it really can be summed up easily by the golden rule "Do onto others as you would have done to yourself." If you don't want to be yelled at, have things thrown at you, be cheated, whatever... don't do it. It will make those in the wrong stand out from the crowd all the more.

Remember your first game and the FUN you had. You probably didn't do too great but you loved every minute of it, right? Competition is key, but if you're having fun you're gonna have a good attitude too.

[giant1515]

The field I've played most at around here is pretty bad about this. Its not really the older folks or the newbies that do it though, its the younger team players. One of them does something minor and then they start at it, cursing hollering and almost fighting... its really sad. What's even worse is that i've seen new kids mothers pack them up into the van and take them home upon hearing this.

[FatMan]

First off, let me thank all of you who responded - I found it REALLY interesting reading your thoughts. :)

Next, I find it rather interesting that most of us seem willing to accept a certain amount of anger on the field, even to the point of assuming that MOST people experience and thus it is to be expected. It is also rather interesting that the MOST common incident cited as causing anger is overshooting.

Those who have not read "Walt's Thoughts on Paintball" I'll share with you my first experience at being overshot. I was playing a nice friendly woods game and took one in the groin. I managed to vacate the hot zone before I fell to my knees. Meanwhile, a pair of enterprising youths had swept the bottom tape and flanked my team. They came out of the woods in the backfield, saw me and lit me up. Realize, they didn't know what was up with me, on the other hand my marker was on the ground, I was on my knees not behind any cover and basicly holding my balls! I yelled (OK, I couldn't yell, I more like croaked) that I was out, at which point they admonished me for not holding my gun over my head!

I didn't enjoy being lit up like that. In retrospect it was kind of minor compared to what ELSE was going on, but I didn't get angry. I YELLED, oh yeah, I YELLED: "I'm OUT, I'm OUT, STOP SHOOTING!"

Maybe the reason I don't get worked up about being overshot is that I've done some of it myself - quite by accident. Its hard to hear on the field - its hard to know what's going on. Especially for newbies who aren't used to it. I've made the mistake, and I was yelled at. When someone does it to me, I try to give them a break.

If you walk on the field you've got to be prepared to take some hits. I do a bit of reffing now, and I take more paint as a ref than I ever have as a player. When I'm head ref, I tell my refs "I expect you to get in there and call the game. I expect you'll take more paint than the players. Get ready for it." Nothing irritates me more than a ref who gets all peaved over taking some paint. :(

OK, so this posting is getting long, but let me finish saying *I* don't think there is a good excuse for losing your temper on the field. Not at a ref, not at an opponent, not at a team mate. Very little is accomplished by losing your temper, and often it has the opposite of the desired effect. I think because this is an *aggresive* game we assume its OK to lose our temper. I don't agree. That guy can become the "enemy" when you walk on the field without going ballistic.

that's my 2 cents.

FatMan

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

one example that i'm rather proud of occured to me this weekend. i ran up dead center of the field and made it to the base of the hill. exchanging a few shots with pretty much they're whole team, i got gogged. i throw the gun up, they stop shooting, and i start walking off to one side to get off. this kid in a blue sweatshirt starts taking shots at me but i don't even look at him as i continue my way off the field. he shot me about 2 times and i figued he thought he took me out. ok cool. i get out of bounds and have a seat against a tree. about 5 seconds after i sit down, i see this kid starting to shoot at me again. i'm not even looking at him and my gun is at my side on the ground. he takes a few misaimed shots and i yell that i'm out. i take another one to the chest during this exchange. he stopped for the moment and i continue to sit and watch. about 5 minutes into the game, they're side is pushing hard down the field. i stood up to progress as they did because the game was almost over. still out of bounds mind you, with my back turned, i took two more shots. i turn around to see the same kid in the blue sweatshirts still shooting at me. i get a ref to yell at him as this is his 3rd time shooting at me when i'm dead. before he finally got let on taht i'm out he shot me right on my p/f tube. i was pissed. it got paint in the gun and i had to clean it. i managed to calm myself and just remember who he was, what gun he had, and where we were going next. speedball!!!!! being that i ref there, i aranged for us to be on oposite teams. they consisted of mostly newbs with m98's and rentals, as did my team with one stock cocker. we pretty much lit them up in about 2 minutes and he was the second to last person out. i knew it was him and took it easy on him for my best oportunity. to my dismay someone on the other team shot him as he advanced on the oposite tapeline. but i couldn't let that stop me, he stood up and i let off a string of about 5 shots go towards him. all 5 hit him dead in the head. after that, "sorry, i didn't know you were out". he headed off without any words or problems. but hey, i got my revenge without any cursing or yelling. just simple exchanging paint out on the field. if everyone could do this, i think we could all be better off.

[manike]

Two wrongs do NOT make a right :rolleyes:

manike

[cphilip]

Ahhhhhhh....revenge!!!....now thats different isn't it? :D

[magmonkey]

I have had issues with anger on the field
my problems came from my own team wich is unfortunate. Because on one hand I have my first team Mass Destruction doing all we can to get a good name for ourselves

And then on the other team that I play for, we have a few players that are real pieces of human watste on the field and they give us all a bad name and of course the team with the bad attitudes have the sponsorship and Mass D doesn't get recognized.

it is frustrating

I have decided to just play for Mass this season because why should I let sombody ealse wreck my name:confused:

[FatMan]

Originally posted by manike
Two wrongs do NOT make a right :rolleyes:

manike

No, they make 1.37 lefts, but that's not the point.

As long as we stay within the rules of safety and decorum, isn't it OK to raise (or lower) your game to the level of your opponent. Consider basketball. If every single foul were called, the game would get old fast. The refs call the game at some level - there is a certain amount of wrong they look for before they make a call. A player that plays dirty has to adjust to a ref that calls the game tight, or he's in foul trouble. On the other hand a player that plays clean will loose if he doesn't adjust HIS game to a ref that calls loose.

So, if a player seems willing to be a little too free with his paint, why not back at him? He might decide to back off once he tastes it a bit too often. If not, at least you get the satisfaction of seeing that he gets his. I am assuming that we aren't being rediculous here (please no posts implying I'm saying its OK to overshoot). Certainly if someone is WAY out of line that can be corrected through the proper authorities.

This logic tends to apply to bunkering too. If some guy likes to bunker people, fine. Bunker HIM! If that's OK with him, then at least we're all on the same page now.

And how about if I've had a bad day at the office? So I go out to the local field and light my buddy up. Next game he paints me head to toe. All is even, and I get my aggression out! Seems fair!

Don't agree with me? Hey, I'll rochambeau you for it!

FatMan

[manike]

Within the rules fair is fair but why break the rules? Isn't it better to lift someone else to your level than lower yourself to theirs?


Originally posted by FatMan
As long as we stay within the rules of safety and decorum,

As soon as you shoot someone who is already eliminated if you know you are doing it you are breaking the rules of decorum.

Basketball yeah played that, played rugby too. I can honestly say I have never thrown the first punch on the field and I can't actually think of when I have ever thrown one on the field... But if someone ever punched me they would regret it. I would play within the rules and play fair but take my revenge clean and fair. Punch me and I would break ribs the next time I tackled you (I was renowned for my tackles). Or I would rake the player off the ball while leaving my initials in his body (you could spot people who had played foul in the showers after a game). All clean and fair within the rules of the game...

There is no need to lower yourselve to someone elses bad behaviour. Get even within the game. Bunker the foo or shoot him out clean. Much more satisfying. Don't you feel like crap when you break the rules and act badly on someone who is already eliminated? I have better respect for myself and sportsmanship than to conduct myself in such a manner.


Originally posted by FatMan
(please no posts implying I'm saying its OK to overshoot).

:rolleyes: but that's exactly what you just did... in fact you implied it was ok to shoot someone that wasn't expecting it and was already eliminated. That's worse... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by FatMan
So, if a player seems willing to be a little too free with his paint, why not back at him?

Because when does it stop? I hit you with two extra balls next game you hit me with four. Then I bunker you and hit you with six... It just gets worse and worse and ultimately shows a lack of self control. Get even by all means but fairly. It will be sweeter.

The tit for tat mentality of many Americans is very sad. I think it's one reason there is so much violence in your sport and on your streets.


Originally posted by FatMan
This logic tends to apply to bunkering too. If some guy likes to bunker people, fine. Bunker HIM! If that's OK with him, then at least we're all on the same page now.

That's different, it's within the rules and is 100% fair and ok with me. Too right bunker him back :)


Originally posted by FatMan
Don't agree with me? Hey, I'll rochambeau you for it!


What the hell is a rochambeau? :)

manike (a sportsman)

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by manike
The tit for tat mentality of many Americans is very sad. I think it's one reason there is so much violence in your sport and on your streets.

whoa whoa whoa. our sport? since when was anything simply OUR sport? and i find it hard to believe that it's only americans that are violent on the field. i don't know any non-american paintball teams or players, but i can almost say with certainty that any paintball player, european, american, canadian, ect., are going to have outbursts on the field.

last time i checked, britain wasn't a crime free country.

[manike]

When I said 'your sport' I wasn't just talking paintball but sport in general.

There is violence in paintball all over the world. It's an agressive game. I'm priveleged that I have played paintball all over the world. In my opinion there is more overshooting and fights and violence in American paintball than I have seen anywhere else (although it obviously does happen elsewhere).

It may well be a culture thing? Come to think of it the violent issues which stick in my mind and that I saw in the Millenium series last year were all instigated by American teams...

Britian obviously isn't crime free and I never implied that but we don't have the same scale of problem with tit for tat drive by shootings and gang related tit for tat crime.

manike

[shartley]

Soccer... now THAT is a real nonviolent sport. Well, at least it isn't in the US. In Europe on the other hand....

Please folks, pointing fingers only ends up getting someones eye poked. ;)

(I will leave it at that.)

[manike]

Football (soccer) is a sport with more violence off the pitch than on it. That's unfortunately due the spectator demographics. But it has improved dramatically in the last few years.

Football (Soccer) is a contact sport and people play it as such but you also see any violent offenders rapidly clamped down on. It's not accepted. It is much more stringently reffed now than it has ever been.

There is bad behaviour and violence on the pitch but it is also being clamped down on with new rules etc. Bad language can now be penalised and incidents that are captured on camera are subject to further penalties after the fact. Europe is doing a lot to reduce the violence in our sport both on and off the pitch.

A 'tit for tat' violence on the pitch is punishable with an instant red card. Just look at what happened to Beckham and our last World Cup chances. He was fouled and the ref was going to book the offender. Beckham retaliated and was immediately red carded and sent off. Quite rightly.

I think people obviously bonus balling should be eliminated from the game also...

manike

[shartley]

Thank you Manike…. And I mean that quite honestly.

You proved my point exactly. The fact that the situations you mentioned still happened shows much, no matter how strict the rules have become to combat them. And the off field activities go to directly show that even off field folks can become violent. Note that the demographic you are talking about is NOT Americans in this case.

But I think you also helped bring things into better perspective. Many times it IS about demographics. And to get at the real problem, and the solution, involves sociology. And as an industry, those involved in Paintball need to keep an honest view of their target demographics and the benefits/problems that can come from them. Also until Paintball becomes more mainstream, you will continue to get fringe people who play it… after all it appeals to a certain type of person, like it or not. And many of these people have a hard time turning on and off their aggressions.

Personally though, I prefer to handle every issue on its own merit… paintball or not. This means that if I have a problem with someone or something, I deal with the exact… not the demographic it comes from.

How this would translate to the Paintball World is that if Johnny and the Rough Riders were being unsportsmanlike, we deal with them as a team or an individual (whatever the case may be) and not as Americans, British, Canadian, Black, White, Asian, etc. We saw the same problems occur with “Tourney Players” on another thread here on AO, were a field wanted to get rid of an entire group because of the actions of a few… lumping by demographic or “type” can be a dangerous and extremely unfair thing.

And as I see it, until the world can focus on the actual problems and not the “demographic”, there will be NO change. After all, you can not change the entire demographic in one grand swoop, but you CAN control the individual. And demographics are made up of MANY individuals…. Change enough of the parts, and the whole becomes a different thing.

And look at how established Football (Soccer) is, and how old the sport itself is. Yet they still have problems….. Paintball is a baby, it still has time to grow and mature. But it takes real action and control to grow properly. And this control and action needs to be taken by Field Owners, Refs, and other Officials in the sport (as well as those on the field…. Don’t play with others that can’t conduct themselves properly.. period.)…. But this control should be done without “profiling”. And by pointing fingers at one group or another, and not the actual people at fault, the “profiling” begins…. Whether we like it of not.

(Note: there ARE situations where profiling is an asset, and a needed thing. But paintball is not one of those situations.)

[FatMan]

Originally posted by manike

:rolleyes: but that's exactly what you just did... in fact you implied it was ok to shoot someone that wasn't expecting it and was already eliminated. That's worse... :rolleyes:

[ ... ]

What the hell is a rochambeau? :)

manike (a sportsman)

Well, actually I was asking if it was OK.

Rochambeau (sp?) is a "game" where by to settle a dispute two guys trade kicks to the balls until one gives up. Rediculous, no?

FatMan

[shartley]

:rolleyes:

[FatMan]

Originally posted by manike

There is violence in paintball all over the world. It's an agressive game. I'm priveleged that I have played paintball all over the world. In my opinion there is more overshooting and fights and violence in American paintball than I have seen anywhere else (although it obviously does happen elsewhere).

It may well be a culture thing?

manike

Now THAT was the point of the post. Not the bit about American versus European, but the simple assumption of violence in paintball - and the culture thing. Shartley added:


Originally posted by shartley

But I think you also helped bring things into better perspective. Many times it IS about demographics. And to get at the real problem, and the solution, involves
sociology. And as an industry, those involved in Paintball need to keep an honest view of their target demographics and the benefits/problems that can come from
them. Also until Paintball becomes more mainstream, you will continue to get fringe people who play it? after all it appeals to a certain type of person, like it or not. And
many of these people have a hard time turning on and off their aggressions.

[ ... ]

And as I see it, until the world can focus on the actual problems and not the ?demographic?, there will be NO change. After all, you can not change the entire
demographic in one grand swoop, but you CAN control the individual. And demographics are made up of MANY individuals?. Change enough of the parts, and the
whole becomes a different thing.


So, how do we respond to this demographic? Do we just say "Hey, that's the way it is? We just deal with it?" So either I just live with these bozos shooting me up, cheating, cursing, etc. or I do it back to them, or what? What is my alternative?

Personally, I've never felt anger or a desire to do violence when playing paintball - and it never seems to hurt my game. I go after my opponent with lustful zeal, but when I get shot I laugh it off. When I get OVERSHOT I wave my arms and GET OFF THE FIELD FAST! I'm playing paintball, I EXPECT to get shot.

And you guys are right, this isn't a paintball only issue (maybe should move to friendly?) A week ago I saw an 11 year old kid carried out of a basketball game on a stretcher while the kid that fouled him grinned and strutted back and forth and his parents yelled taunts. Made me sick! I'd rather not have THOSE people on my paintball field.

Maybe there should be a license required to play paintball - and a psych test to get the license. Pacifist-only paintball :D ! Personally, I think it all started with John McEnroe (sp?) who introduced bad sportsmanship to tennis. Now paintball is going down the tubes!

Its enough to make an old fart cry :( !

FatMan

[manike]

Originally posted by shartley
And look at how established Football (Soccer) is, and how old the sport itself is. Yet they still have problems…..

Yes but they are taking steps to stop those problems. They are not accepting them as part of the game and thus 'OK'. That is my whole point. You shouldn't just accept such things and you shouldn't lower yourself to someone elses level. Violence in and associated with footbal has been dramatically reduced.


Originally posted by FatMan
Rochambeau (sp?) is a "game" where by to settle a dispute two guys trade kicks to the balls until one gives up. Rediculous, no?

nah sounds like fun, mind if I start? ;) (I expect after my go I will give up and let you win :) hehehe


Originally posted by FatMan
Personally, I've never felt anger or a desire to do violence when playing paintball - and it never seems to hurt my game. I go after my opponent with lustful zeal, but when I get shot I laugh it off. When I get OVERSHOT I wave my arms and GET OFF THE FIELD FAST! I'm playing paintball, I EXPECT to get shot.


I agree 100% and I can also tell you have done your share of reffing. I spent 3 years where I couldn't really afford to play so I reffed just to remain part of the sport. I think that experience and the things I saw is why I feel the way I do now.


Originally posted by FatMan
And you guys are right, this isn't a paintball only issue (maybe should move to friendly?) A week ago I saw an 11 year old kid carried out of a basketball game on a stretcher while the kid that fouled him grinned and strutted back and forth and his parents yelled taunts. Made me sick! I'd rather not have THOSE people on my paintball field.

That disgusts me, how can people support that? What culture makes that kid think it's ok and how can his parents support it? That saddens me greatly. I used to coach a rugby team, if he did that on my team he'd be off the pitch and cut.

Again you hit the nail on the head. I don't want to play paintball with people like that and I don't want them on my team or field. I have previously quit teams and major sponsorship when I thought they were bringing me and the game into disrepute. I'm proud to be an honorary member of Canadian Contingent who are known for their sportsmanship and to play on the Warpig Factory team where the no1. requisit is sportsmanship and manners.

I refer back to my rugby experience where a lot of people accept violence as 'part of the game' well not if they play with me. I've played for county, region, University first team and a Town first team (the year before they went proffessional) so I've played at a very high level, the equivalent of someone in the USA playing for their state and then the north or south etc. I would never accept violence being part of the game. It isn't. And if we as people involved don't stand up against it then who will?


Originally posted by FatMan
Personally, I think it all started with John McEnroe (sp?) who introduced bad sportsmanship to tennis. Now paintball is going down the tubes!

Yeah him and his damn racquet abuse... I blame him for Mark Knop and Lasoya throwing their guns :rolleyes: :)

manike

[shartley]

Manike

Yes but they are taking steps to stop those problems. They are not accepting them as part of the game and thus 'OK'. That is my whole point. You shouldn't just accept such things and you shouldn't lower yourself to someone elses level. Violence in and associated with footbal has been dramatically reduced.
We are in TOTAL agreement.

My post was actually reiterating your references… but wanting to get away from the American/European thing. ;) The problem is universal, not regional.

FatMan

So, how do we respond to this demographic? Do we just say "Hey, that's the way it is? We just deal with it?" So either I just live with these bozos shooting me up, cheating, cursing, etc. or I do it back to them, or what? What is my alternative?
This took my by surprise. You are evidently a well-educated man, and one with years, but that question just seemed out of character. Hopefully it was just to spark conversation….

The answer seems like a simple one…. Enforce Rules. If people are breaking the rules or ethics of play, you get them kicked off the field. This seems like common sense to me. And that is what Rules are for… it allows a totally unbiased and not-personal way to deal with things. No anger, no yelling, nothing…. These are the rules, you read them before playing, you broke them, now you deal with the consequences. It takes the difficulty out of keeping things in line. After all, the one who BROKE the rules was the one that set things in motion, not the one who has to enforce them. The rule breaker made the decision.

And I would never personally lower myself to the level of a punk…. Unless it was in self-defense. What you seem to be talking about is more on the line of retaliation, which is quite different.

Also, as I stated, you don’t need to respond to the demographic, but to the individual(s) directly. Each person, even within a demographic, will respond to things differently. Heck I have 4 kids and each one must be approached differently to be effective. Each person will respond in a different manner even though the “offense” may have been the same. There is no one size fits all solution, unfortunately.

One thing that I must add though (and I eluded to it in my other post), is that I feel that sportsmanship (or the lack of good sportsmanship) has nothing to do with any one person (such as J.M.) or any one group (such as pro basketball or football players, or a particular demographic) but more so with society’s total lack of personal responsibility for one’s actions.

Hold each person responsible for their actions (not their sex, age, race, socioeconomic standing, etc.) and enforce the rules and codes of ethics and fair play, and you will see Paintball become a better sport. You do not start with the Big Picture… you start with each individual component… after all, as I stated, THOSE are the things each of us has the ability to control.

But then again… that is just how I see things…..

[FatMan]

Shartley,

Rather than quote ALL of your post, I'll just say - yeah I agree with you. And yeah, I like to spark conversation, and yeah I like to give some of the lurking readers something to think about.

At *my* field we enforce exactly those rules. Sportsmanship is second only to safety. But I've been to plenty of fields where those rules aren't even stated, let alone enforced. I've seen plays pitch a fit and when it was reported to the field owner they shrug it off. They don't want to diss a paying customer. I don't play at those fields any more.

But not every kid who is getting into paintball has those options. And some of their parents are already reluctant to let them play - and this "demographic" is part of the reason why. And that bothers me. A lot.

I want to say "right on" (or some more current kind of phrase that means the same thing) about the responsibilities of the individual. THAT IS THE KEY. I see all around me people who do NOT take responsbility for themselves AND THE WORLD THEY LIVE IN. As a professor at a major university I see these issues day after day after day. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I might see it a little more because the "demographic" that I deal with (please don't get me wrong, if I didn't LOVE working with college kids, I wouldn't be here).

So, what *I* would like to see is more paintballers taking up the mantle of sportsmanship - and pushing their local field owners or tourney producers to MAKE THOSE RULES and ENFORCE THEM. And I'd like to see fewer kids trying to explain away violence and anger in our sport. Look back over this thread. It's getting pretty long. There are quite a few posts back there that are trying to beg off the issue - and more that are just saying "what can i do?" as if that absolves us.

It IS a personal responsibility issue. *I* for one am doing the following:

- I am the faculty advisor of our paintball club, and I have made safety and sportsmanship the cornerstones of our club.

- I teach/coach younger players and in doing so I stress these issues.

- I am doing more reffing. I hope to join Bill Cookston's Professional Paintball Referee Organization.

- Finally, I set a good example whenever I play.

Oh, and I post to AO. It's not much, but it's what I can do - so I do it.

Play safe and have fun!

FatMan

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

ok, everyone seems to be on this kick that the way you stop people from doing things that show bad sportsmanship(cursing, fighting, yelling, ect.). i see a major problem with this. who are the ref's at most tourney's? teams. the bigger tourney's get reffed by the pro's. the smaller tourney's get reffed by amature's and so on. i know any sort of established team, goes on to ref some sort of event. some of these people are the cause of the problems. yet we're going to rely on them to stop them? am i not getting something? most of these players at one point or another, have been driven to any one of these childish behavior's that we've discussed. more than likely, they're not going to stop someone from doing the same thing.

another problem i see is that these same teams that ref the games carry grudges. say that team a gets beat by team b. then team a goes to ref another event that team b is playing in. they go about thinking, oh, well they beat us so we'll show them. they then let team c destroy team b just because they're ego's got hurt at that first event. this just leads to unprofessional behavior and unfair games. i realize that this is probably a rare occurance, but i'm sure it happens and you must see this as a possibility.

even at rec ball fields, who ref's most of the games? kids. i know my at my field, the majority consists of about 15-19 year olds. the guys that run the field do enforce the rules rather strictly, but when they're not around, little things like this run rampant.

if incidents such as this are going to be put at an end, i think better quality ref's are needed. not necessarily better quality, but unbiased. i realize they have ref's probably that don't even play on a team and some of these ref's are really good at what they do, but i know most of the established and sponsered teams that play around here go on to ref some tourney's.

overshooting is something that is always going to happen. intentional or not, it's never going to end. look at any situation. a tourney player that's just trying to hold you in a bunker. you get taken out and you go to walk off, he's shooting at you're bunker before you even get taken out. wehn you get up, there's going to be some paint flying at you and you're going to get hit with some of them. take a newbie playing his first game. he's excited and jumpy. he sees someone come out of a bunker, he's going to pop out and start shooting. really no matter how you look at it, it's just part of the game. it is annoying, but is it a big deal? you get shot a few more times, big deal. you're playing paintball, if you don't expect to get shot you shouldn't be playing. someone that keeps doing it repeatedly then should be penalized. and if someone does it intionally, how are you going to prove it? if he does it and it happened to be an accident, you're going to throw him off the field because of a mistake? that's harsh. there has to be some other way, far be it for me to know what that way would be.

[FatMan]

Well Ragu, you're right. That is a problem. I think that's why there is a push to establish an independent ref organization for tourney. That's why I'm interested in getting involved in that. But for local fields that isn't going to help.

I think the issue is personal responsibility first. Each person has to make it a priority. After that, the field owners will have to deal with customers who insist on better refs. Most of the fields I've been to, the ref sits on the sideline after the safety speach and starts and stops games and doesn't really ref at all.

That's why I don't play those fields much any more.

Play safe and have fun,
FatMan

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

Originally posted by FatMan


That's why I don't play those fields much any more.



easy for you to say. what about the 15 year old newbie that's just starting off. not trying to offend anyone, but these are the people that really don't have a choice. they have to go wherever their parents take them. most people won't drive more than half an hour(give or take) to take their kids to play a game they probably don't approve of anyways. i know i have a total of 3 choices of fields. 2 indoor and an outdoor field. the 2 indoor field are at least a 30 minute drive, if i speed(which i don't like doing). even if i could, i really don't have to many options as to what field i can go to.

i know it's been said, but all of the bad behavior really all boils down to is all the newbs that start off at any given field. i'm talking the 10-15 year olds that go there with there M98's and spyders. they go there and see all the other pro's and starting off amatuers acting like total idiots cursing and yelling cause they got shot, they go into the game thinking it's ok. eventually when they becaume an average speedball player and jump on a rookie team, they go about doing the same things that they saw when they started off and show some other little kid all the immature little tantrums that they throw, that shows the outside world the illusion that paintball is a dangerous/bad sport.

there really is no cure for this. IMO, there will always be the overzealous hothead that has outbursts over losing a game. it's really human nature to be pissed off over inane things. there is to much aggression in paintball to control all these incidents. does it mean we shouldn't try? i don't think so. even if we don't stop all of it, we can cut out some or most of it. it's a shame we can't just ban people from paintball for these things. guess there wouldn't be any money it that though.

[FatMan]

Originally posted by TheBigRaguPB4L


easy for you to say. what about the 15 year old newbie that's just starting off. not trying to offend anyone, but these are the people that really don't have a choice. they have to go wherever their parents take them.


If you read my post BEFORE the last post I pointed out that was a luxury *I* have but most don't.



i know it's been said, but all of the bad behavior really all boils down to is all the newbs that start off at any given field. i'm talking the 10-15 year olds that go there with there M98's and spyders. they go there and see all the other pro's and starting off amatuers acting like total idiots cursing and yelling cause they got shot, they go into the game thinking it's ok.


I don't agree with this entirely. I think most of the 15 year olds already know how to cuss and act like the spoiled brats they are before they come out to the paintball field. Paintball doesn't have a monopoly on bad sportsmanship. Check back two of my posts and you'll see an example. This problem goes beyond Paintball, but that doesn't mean Paintball has to just live with it.



there really is no cure for this. IMO, there will always be the overzealous hothead that has outbursts over losing a game. it's really human nature to be pissed off over inane things. there is to much aggression in paintball to control all these incidents. does it mean we shouldn't try? i don't think so. even if we don't stop all of it, we can cut out some or most of it. it's a shame we can't just ban people from paintball for these things. guess there wouldn't be any money it that though.

There is a cure - but not a vaccine. We will always get players who do this, but we can certainly put a stop to it. And we don't have to ban them from paintball. We simply make it known that we won't put up with that. If they don't want to deal with that THEN they can get out.

Again, I know its harder for the kid who plays a commercial field, but if enough of those kids make it known that THEY don't want to see that kind of thing, and let the field owners and refs know, and help spread the word - it WILL make a difference.

There are plenty of tennis clubs and country clubs that don't put up with tantrums (and they get just as many as we do). They set their rules and the membership won't settle for poor enforcement. Can't paintball do the same thing - if we want to?

I think we can. I'm not sure WE want to.

Play safe and have fun,
FatMan

[cphilip]

I think it's all that British guys fault...what's his name? Hmmmmm...oh yea...Man-like? Or sumpin like dat. :D



Just a bit of humor injected. Wanted or not.

[manike]

Yeah those damn Brits with their manners and sportsmanship... who DO they think they are?

It's not Cricket you know...

manike

[cphilip]

We fish with crickets...:D

[FatMan]

Originally posted by cphilip
We fish with crickets...:D

I feed 'em to my lizard! :p

FatMan