O ring for the L10?

[Menace_AO]

Yes, this is probably not feasible, but if no one asks, no one answers.

I'm thinking of pressing out the stem on the L10 bolt, having an inside o-ring groove cut in the back of the bolt, and popping in an 014 o-ring, just for giggles.

Oh, and pressing the stem back in, of course. :)

Figure it might help with a couple of things. If properly done the o-ring should just fit loosely on the power tube, but seal it up relatively effectively. So no real sticktion issues, and no real worries about leaking. Just a little smoother, a little more efficient, maybe a little more consistent, etc.

So:

1. Is this madness? If so, why, and if not, why not?
2. Can one of you do this?
3. How much?

Let the festivities commence . . .

[Nobody]

well, it would give 2 points of contact. the stem riding on the powertube and then the new oring. if you were to do a polish, or a high polish, this would give the movement very smooth. what that would mean i don't know. if the design were more of a spool valve, or something that rides the inner parts, i would see that, but i really don't know.

efficiency, i don't think it will be effected at all. the only way to increase efficiency is to either A) devolumize the dump chamber. that would give less volume, but increase the pressure inside the gun, letting you use less air overall. B) reg down the air going into the gun to the minimal number needed to get velocity and make minor adjustments with the stock reg back. because of the design, most of the air is used from the breech area forward, unlike a poppit. but, i know of no test ever done to see the gas usage through the breech, or any loss of gas that doesn't go down the barrel. if we could only see air, and have a see through body(or one that has slots to see the bolt movement and air), then we could even see if there is any loss away from the barrel.

i'm surprised that Spider! hasn't taken this idea of yours. the only person that i know has familiarity with Mags in general would be TyMcNeer. you can PM him on MCB to see what he says. he does love to talk theory, so be prepared on reading a page or 2. and i mean that in a good way. each talk i've had with him has been fruitful.

[BigEvil]

I think some people have experiments with putting orings outside on the powertube... but sounds like an interesting experiment

[Justus]

I think hill put o-rings outside on the powertube actually. Maybe on the powertube tip?

Edit: Here it is - http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?255498-Efficiency-mod

[Menace_AO]

Thanks, guys.

Yes, Hill's mod got me thinking about this. He saw some small gains, but of course, what he did can't really be done so well on an L10. I guess you could put o-rings on the PT tip of you like, but only for show. ;)

This isn't a big hurry issue just yet. Just something to think about for a while before really getting after it with gusto.

[Cyco-Dude]

i think if it was worth it, agd would have done it.

[athomas]

Not much air is lost out the back of the bolt. I'm not sure if the work involved would net enough gain to make it worth while. You'll never know unless you try, though.

[bbotts77]

I'm not really sure what benefit you would see by putting the oring inside the bolt over putting it on the PT tip. It would serve the same purpose, but be more difficult to implement. Right?

[Menace_AO]

I'm not really sure what benefit you would see by putting the oring inside the bolt over putting it on the PT tip. It would serve the same purpose, but be more difficult to implement. Right?

If this were an L7 bolt, it'd be a piece of cake. But if you look down the L7 vs. the L10 bolt you will note that the latter is machined out inside, and thus an o-ring on the power tube tip is pointless. The only way to get a seal is to put the o-ring in the rear of the bolt itself, and that requires tools that I don't have.

It's no biggy, just something for fun and curiosity.

[bbotts77]

But if you look down the L7 vs. the L10 bolt you will note that the latter is machined out inside
Interesting. I guess I never bothered to look that closely at the inside any of my bolts. I didn't realize they were milled out like that. It all makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)

[Spider-TW]

i'm surprised that Spider! hasn't taken this idea of yours. the only person that i know has familiarity with Mags in general would be TyMcNeer. you can PM him on MCB to see what he says. he does love to talk theory, so be prepared on reading a page or 2. and i mean that in a good way. each talk i've had with him has been fruitful.

:p

I had to think about this for a while. I think my first attempt would be to glue a small delrin guide bushing (sleeve) onto the power tube to simply block that space. If it is too thin to handle, idk. I don't think the level 10 bolt stem takes well to being pressed out and in again, at least not without the right temperatures and fixtures.

Honestly, I always thought the little play in the bolt fit helped with the tolerances in the assembly, so even if there was efficiency to be gained, I would still have to think about the overall value of the mods.

[Menace_AO]

Funny you should mention the business about the guide bushing. :)

Already tried that, and the first draft failed after a few shots. But before it failed, it was reeeeaaally nice. That's what has kept my interest. If it had been meh, I'd have left it alone.

Problem with the sleeve is that it needs to be exceedingly thin. Basically the bolt tore off the sleeve after a few shots. Thought about sleeving the bolt, but an o-ring would be a better option if it weren't too much trouble.

Well, I'll keep mulling this over.

[blackdeath1k]

i think if it was worth it, agd would have done it.

You have to remember. With businesses. They must factor in net gain for cost. An individule can spend cash on there own for something that may bring gain. But in the mass production market its not worth it. I removed the OEM Suzuki counterballancer from my gsxr1000 and had the crank lightened and balanced. Net gain was great. Spins up faster. Runs smoother. Less overall rotating mass. And 2 less babet bearings to go bad. Why does Suzuki not do that from the factory you may ask. Overall cost. They don't have to balance every crank they produce now. But my setup they would.

Back to the topic at hand. Interesting...... what exactly were these gains you speak of that make you want to persue the topic more?

[Nobody]

You have to remember. With businesses. They must factor in net gain for cost. An individule can spend cash on there own for something that may bring gain. But in the mass production market its not worth it. I removed the OEM Suzuki counterballancer from my gsxr1000 and had the crank lightened and balanced. Net gain was great. Spins up faster. Runs smoother. Less overall rotating mass. And 2 less babet bearings to go bad. Why does Suzuki not do that from the factory you may ask. Overall cost. They don't have to balance every crank they produce now. But my setup they would.

Back to the topic at hand. Interesting...... what exactly were these gains you speak of that make you want to persue the topic more?

try this:

Just a little smoother, a little more efficient, maybe a little more consistent, etc.

even though the possible gains could be minimal, the one good thing is that even with the mod, if it weren't to work, it shouldn't effect anything to remove it.

if anything, its an intellectual/physical pursuit. even just talking theory is nice. though AGD and mags are great, it doesn't mean that they are perfect. and that is worth pursuing.

[blackdeath1k]

try this:


even though the possible gains could be minimal, the one good thing is that even with the mod, if it weren't to work, it shouldn't effect anything to remove it.

if anything, its an intellectual/physical pursuit. even just talking theory is nice. though AGD and mags are great, it doesn't mean that they are perfect. and that is worth pursuing.

I took that as being the theoretical gains. Not necessarily the gains he saw. Maybe I'm reading that message wrong.

But yes. I'm all for messing with stuff for potential gains. Even more so if Its a removable part.

[Menace_AO]

Nobody hit it pretty well on the head.

My mag works great. Absolutely love it. All my mags work great. I just like things to be buttery smooth, and to fit nicely, and to tinker so as to squeeze out every little bit of performance possible, and this is an area that might be worth looking at for that extra little bit over the top.

[Spider-TW]

It seems like you have to have a thin o-ring (not 1/16" CS) anywhere you put it, due to space. It might hold up since it doesn't have to seal too tight. It will need a tight groove though. Watch gasket? :confused:

It would be a lot easier if you could find an outside o-ring spot, like on the tip or PT.

Anyone have the PT threading offhand?

[Menace_AO]

Can't be on the outside of the power tube owing to the hollowing of the L10 (or did I misread your post there?).

Pretty sure for the L10 it must be inside the rear of the bolt or nothing. But you are right about the o-ring width. It might be do-able to put a 1/16" in there, but boy, what a squeeze fore and aft. Any mistakes and you make like the Doors, and break on through to the other side.

Hmm. Maybe this isn't really feasible after all.

Ah, well. Maybe something will come to mind. Wonder how hard it would be to convert an L7 bolt for the L10 stem. That would allow for power tube tip rings.