Gun Trade - Lost Gun Advice

[Dayspring]

So I'm in a bind...

Traded my Freeflow Eblade to a guy in Cali for his Eclipse Geo 2.0. He got his gun (verified by USPS). He shipped mine out a day or so later. However the USPS says that they have no record of it ever being picked up (even though we have an email from their system saying it was). I submitted a claim for the insurance, but was originally denied b/c they say they can't verify the method of shipping. I've appealed that decision with some PDF paperwork from the shipper, but haven't heard anything back yet.

So my question is this - if they deny the claim, what recourse do I have with the shipper? In his eyes, the gun left his possession, but according to the USPS, it never was picked up. He's already modified the gun (think he halfblocked it) so it's not like I can ask for the gun back.

If the USPS denies the appeal, am I pretty much screwed out of a gun? Can I go to the shipper and get some sort of financial compensation for the lost article?

Thoughts?

[ScottyBeans]

That really sucks. If you have .PDF proof that the package was accepted I don't see how they can deny an appeal. Just keep complaining and making a fuss and you should eventually get soemthing (insurance, I'd imagine).

As far as getting anything from the shipper, I'd imagine there's no real recourse you can take. It sounds to me like he shipped it, which completes the deal on his part. No reason he should be on the hook for this that I can see.

[Dayspring]

See, the thing is, when you load the tracking # for the package, it says that it only generated the tracking number, and no pickup happened.

Not sure which they give more credence to - their tracking system (which says nothing was picked up) or an email from their system that says it was.

[knownothingmags]

where in California?
I had to press my usps for an item from PTP it to a month to find but finally found it,
and this was after 20 days of them saying no it doesn't exist.
other then that im sorry I don't know what other options you have.
I hope you get lucky and it just shows up.

***the guy is a trusted trader, or you have done business with him before?

[SoulCoffin]

dang, you mentioned this happening a ittle while back on beo. can't believe they're still pushing back, even when you have an automated email from their system. what was their counterargument against that?

[knownothingmags]

it was the automated notice from the usps,
and not the notice that the shipper just got a tracking number, correct?

[Dayspring]

Guy had significant positive feedback on Customcockers.com.

Shipped from Santa Maria. (Picked up from his house.)


Now, I went through their customer affairs group, and they forwarded a "find this package" to their mail recovery service. Though, according to them, it may take up to 3 months. There would be NO communication about it - the package either shows up or it doesn't.

Their argument against the claim was "no verification of your method of mailing."

[Dayspring]

it was the automated notice from the usps,
and not the notice that the shipper just got a tracking number, correct?

We have a PDF copy of an email from [email protected] to the shipper saying "this is to confirm that a successful Package Pickup was made." Included some information on that as well.

Their tracking system, however, shows nothing but a tracking number being generated.

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction!input.action?tRef=qt&tLc=1&tLabels=9406203699300032858966

[Frizzle Fry]

First off, I take issue with the guy modifying YOUR marker. It's not his marker to modify, not until you receive the marker you are owed. Modifying/milling/parting/selling a marker received in a trade deal before the deal is completed raises a big red flag to me about this person. I know on PBNation and TechPB there are specific B/S/T rules covering this. How is this persons feedback? Did you agree to let him ship first or is that just "how it worked out"? Very fishy.

Secondly, can you be sure that the USPS confirmation email is genuine? Did you receive it, or did he? Are you sure that the email specified that the marker was picked up, or is it just the "shipping printed" notification and "pickup scheduled" notification which can be sent when shipping labels are printed out at home from Stamps.com or PayPal... That's pretty thin evidence of having been shipped either way, since automated USPS notifications are sent based on the tracking database, not vice versa, and you must sign up to receive them.

Third, and most important, you need to tell him to make things right. He (the shipper) is the customer; he hired USPS to deliver something to you - it is his responsibility to file claims, make phone calls, and fill out paperwork. All you should be doing is passing along any forms that need your signature; he purchased the insurance, not you. If he left the package on his doorstep and it got nicked before the postman showed up, that is his responsibility, not yours and not USPS, and he needs to make things right (or receive a big negative feedback, and possibly be taken to small claims court).

If he truly did fulfill his end of the deal, and he can give compelling evidence that the package was delivered into USPS custody (CCTV of the postman picking it up, a live confirmation from USPS that they did receive it, etc) but for some reason USPS chooses not to pay out, I don't think he deserves a negative feedback rating or should be held responsible. In that unlikely event, however, a good person would do SOMETHING to make things right.

That said, I think you're being hoodwinked.

[knownothingmags]

We have a PDF copy of an email from [email protected] to the shipper saying "this is to confirm that a successful Package Pickup was made." Included some information on that as well.

Their tracking system, however, shows nothing but a tracking number being generated.

you know what I would keep my hopes up,
they have a way of just getting things to people, and going "oh you were waiting for this, oh I have all the info about it right here" in the end.

how long have you been waiting?

[Dayspring]

12/14/2013

[Frizzle Fry]

We have a PDF copy of an email from [email protected] to the shipper saying "this is to confirm that a successful Package Pickup was made." Included some information on that as well.[/url]

Didn't see this as I was typing.

If you didn't receive the email personally, I wouldn't put much faith in it being real.

[Dayspring]

First off, I take issue with the guy modifying YOUR marker. It's not his marker to modify, not until you receive the marker you are owed. Modifying/milling/parting/selling a marker received in a trade deal before the deal is completed raises a big red flag to me about this person. I know on PBNation and TechPB there are specific B/S/T rules covering this. How is this persons feedback? Did you agree to let him ship first or is that just "how it worked out"? Very fishy.

Secondly, can you be sure that the USPS confirmation email is genuine? Did you receive it, or did he? Are you sure that the email specified that the marker was picked up, or is it just the "shipping printed" notification and "pickup scheduled" notification which can be sent when shipping labels are printed out at home from Stamps.com or PayPal... That's pretty thin evidence of having been shipped either way, since automated USPS notifications are sent based on the tracking database, not vice versa, and you must sign up to receive them.

Third, and most important, you need to tell him to make things right. He (the shipper) is the customer; he hired USPS to deliver something to you - it is his responsibility to file claims, make phone calls, and fill out paperwork. All you should be doing is passing along any forms that need your signature; he purchased the insurance, not you. If he left the package on his doorstep and it got nicked before the postman showed up, that is his responsibility, not yours and not USPS, and he needs to make things right (or receive a big negative feedback, and possibly be taken to small claims court).

If he truly did fulfill his end of the deal, and he can give compelling evidence that the package was delivered into USPS custody (CCTV of the postman picking it up, a live confirmation from USPS that they did receive it, etc) but for some reason USPS chooses not to pay out, I don't think he deserves a negative feedback rating or should be held responsible. In that unlikely event, however, a good person would do SOMETHING to make things right.

That said, I think you're being hoodwinked.

When speaking with USPS Customer Affairs, they said that EITHER party can handle the paperwork - shipper or recipient.

As for the pickup email, I see nothing in it that makes it look bogus.

[Dayspring]

Here's a redacted copy of the confirmation email:

89091


I do email marketing on a daily basis - I see nothing here that would raise a red flag that this is bogus.

[Frizzle Fry]

When speaking with USPS Customer Affairs, they said that EITHER party can handle the paperwork - shipper or recipient.
That's technically true, but there's no reason you should bear the burden of fighting to get the insurance payout - it should be his responsibility.



As for the pickup email, I see nothing in it that makes it look bogus.
It's a template/formletter, right? Sent automatically?

Anybody who's ever received one before (or seen one before) can mock it up with whatever information they want using image edition software, then do a PDF capture. Not hard.

By the way, you HAVE seen something to make it look bogus; these notifications are sent out when USPS scans the item at pickup - they didn't scan the item, or it would appear on the tracking page.


***EDIT***


I do email marketing on a daily basis - I see nothing here that would raise a red flag that this is bogus.

That looks like a scanned printout of an email - very easy to fake! I could make that with MS Word alone, print it, and scan it.

Of the errors I can see, it lists the number of packages under "Pickup Time", the weight under "Total Packages" and the location under "Weight".

Beyond that, "any other use of the email by you is prohibited" doesn't sound authentic.



Ask him to forward it to you... Not a scan, not a screengrab, forward the actual email.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Ask him to forward you the original e-mail. Why he would go to the trouble of turning it into a PDF is odd.
The suspect thing to me is the subject line:
(No Subject)

I just looked at the 20+ e-mails I have on file from USPS and none of them have no subject.

[Frizzle Fry]

Ask him to forward you the original e-mail. Why he would go to the trouble of turning it into a PDF is odd.
The suspect thing to me is the subject line:
(No Subject)

I just looked at the 20+ e-mails I have on file from USPS and none of them have no subject.

This one I just got does!

http://i58.tinypic.com/2hhm4pc.jpg













I did that on my cellphone using GIMP. It took four minutes. And I got the categories lined up properly, too!

[Levi]

That looks like a scanned printout of an email - very easy to fake! I could make that with MS Word alone, print it, and scan it.

Of the errors I can see, it lists the number of packages under "Pickup Time", the weight under "Total Packages" and the location under "Weight".

Beyond that, "any other use of the email by you is prohibited" doesn't sound authentic.



Ask him to forward it to you... Not a scan, not a screengrab, forward the actual email.

This is definitely a scanned image. If you zoom in on any of the text or images they have "fuzzy" edges, this is called aliasing, it is an a artifact of taking an image of a physical copy. If you took a pdf copy of the email you should be able to zoom in and still have crisp defined edges on everything. Not to mention, there are a couple spots that are either stains on the paper or spots on the scanner glass, and I see at least one hair on there too.

While not a smoking gun, this looks fishy to me too. I would not accept this as proof of shipment. He needs to forward the actual email to you.

[Dayspring]

Keep in mind guys - not everybody has a full version of Adobe - he printed the email & scanned it in.

[Dayspring]

Ask him to forward you the original e-mail. Why he would go to the trouble of turning it into a PDF is odd.
The suspect thing to me is the subject line:
(No Subject)

I just looked at the 20+ e-mails I have on file from USPS and none of them have no subject.

He forwarded it from Hotmail to his Outlook account so far as I can tell.

[Flatliner333]

FYI...I feel your pain, though not a marker I recieved my USPS package from a trade deal only to find Major parts missing and the box looks like it's been through hell and back and then re taped. The shipper estimated $30 shipping in the deal but only spent $18 and he did not get insurance on it :(.

[Justus]

Yeah, on top of that the email says there were 3 total packages picked up by USPS on that date. Any of them could have been your package, or NONE of them could be your package. There's nothing to link the confirmation number on that email to your package tracking number.

Best bet is that your package never got picked up. It wasn't one of the 3 boxes with a total combined weight of 15 lbs.

Only the seller knows how many boxes he set outside on his porch, and whether any of those boxes had an address label with your name on it.


EDIT: And if those emails are automated at the time of pickup, then why did it take two days for it to get sent? Pickup date was allegedly 12/14, and the email was allegedly sent to him on 12/16. When USPS sends me emails, I get them within 2 minutes of a scan or tracking number issuance, not 2 days.

[Frizzle Fry]

Yeah, on top of that the email says there were 3 total packages picked up by USPS on that date. Any of them could have been your package, or NONE of them could be your package. There's nothing to link the confirmation number on that email to your package tracking number.

Best bet is that your package never got picked up. It wasn't one of the 3 boxes with a total combined weight of 15 lbs.

Only the seller knows how many boxes he set outside on his porch, and whether any of those boxes had an address label with your name on it.

Let's see the tracking #s for the OTHER two boxes.

[Justus]

Dayspring, we're not hammering on you for this. Hope you know that. We're just extremely skeptical of this seller's claims to you. It's not adding up.

I'm afraid you're giving this guy a pass because you really hope you haven't been scammed. But the fact that he's apparently making it your problem, and isn't being proactive about making it right, speaks volumes.

I've been in those shoes before. Mine's not a Nigerian Prince story, but it's close: Ages ago when I was selling off my Playstation2 on eBay, a guy from New York bought it. In an email he told me that he was going on a mission trip to Nigeria and wanted it shipped to the Mission there. He sent me a bogus Western Union Moneygram and told me to ship. I was naive, and the confirmation email looked okay, so I shipped. There was something off about it, but I didn't want it to be off. I wanted the deal to be done. So I overlooked it. Luckily, my postal carrier didn't. Instead of shipping it off to Nigeria, he brought it back to my apartment and had a chat with me about all the scams he had been seeing. I waited another couple days and the scam flushed out. Due to a very observant postal carrier, I didn't lose my PS2, and was able to file a claim with eBay for sellers' expenses and then relist it. I got lucky.

Regardless of whether this is a scam or it's just a case of USPS gone stupid, I want it to come out okay for you.

[Frizzle Fry]

Justus, good point.

Dayspring, we all love you man, and we're worried you're getting screwed for being a nice guy. I'm sorry if that came off as anything else.




Basically what we're saying is you don't mess with the Day Wang.

[OPBN]

Who the hell leaves packages sitting on their porch to get picked up??? I live in BFE with little to no traffic by my house and would never dream of leaving a (assuming) $400+ package sitting waiting on the postman. I run most packages up to the post office regardless of value. Only exception being, I will occasionally put things in the mailbox, but I can literally see them from my desk as I'm working. Other times I will just put the flag up and the mailman knows if nothing is there I have a package inside the house that won't fit and he waits for me to bring it out. Small town convenience I know but still....

I also agree about the modifying the marker prior to you getting your part of the deal. Seems fishy. Too many things scream BS to me.

[Levi]

Dayspring, we're not hammering on you for this. Hope you know that. We're just extremely skeptical of this seller's claims to you. It's not adding up.

I'm afraid you're giving this guy a pass because you really hope you haven't been scammed. But the fact that he's apparently making it your problem, and isn't being proactive about making it right, speaks volumes.


Yep! Same here. :)

Even if he's not scamming you, it was his responsibility to deliver the package into the hands of the USPS. If your package disappeared off his doorstep before USPS picked it up that is his responsibility. He could have made the choice to go into a post office and hand it across the counter, it sounds like he left it unattended on his doorstep instead. Unless you were told beforehand that this was going to be the case, that was his choice and it should follow that the responsibility and consequences for that choice should also be his.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Keep in mind guys - not everybody has a full version of Adobe - he printed the email & scanned it in.

I'm with the rest of the pitchfork and torches mob here. Why on earth would he print an e-mail, scan the printout, then e-mail it again? I'm sure there is an explanation for it. But that is the problem here, many things that require an explanation.

[skipdogg]

I agree with others. Sounds sketch.

[Dayspring]

Yep! Same here. :)

Even if he's not scamming you, it was his responsibility to deliver the package into the hands of the USPS. If your package disappeared off his doorstep before USPS picked it up that is his responsibility. He could have made the choice to go into a post office and hand it across the counter, it sounds like he left it unattended on his doorstep instead. Unless you were told beforehand that this was going to be the case, that was his choice and it should follow that the responsibility and consequences for that choice should also be his.

Not giving ANYBODY a pass here. He's actually be very communicative w/ me over all this. (though, not much to talk about at this very moment)

[vintage]

usps tracking can be a joke. i bought 2 barrels from Splatplayer and the tracking number still shows it in the Boston area and they came in yesterday. i have had this happen quite frequently.

[RT Lover]

same sent a box 3 day mail and it sat in one city for 4 days and then was marked as delivered. if i knew how to use ups i would go that way

[BigEvil]

Learn from this... NEVER send a marker USPS. They are a joke. There is no accountability and 99% of the govt union workers there could give a rats butt about your issues.

Spend the extra bucks, send it UPS. (Not even Fed Ex Ground). Put "Signature required" and $1000 of insurance. Anything with $1k of insurance on it begins an entirely separate chain of custody on your package because it is considered high value. Every time it gets handed off, someone else will have to sign for it. From the pick up driver, to the terminal clerks, all the way until it goes out for delivery.

[teichild]

Sorry to hear that man.

[blackdeath1k]

Yup. USPS is a joke. I get packages all the time from them that there tracking number never shows up. Only thing I'm seeing that annoys me is the guy jumping right in to work on your end of the trade. Any time I trade or sell bike parts. Money or there parts sit and wait for me to get the OK from the other party that all is well on there end.

[SoulCoffin]

i can still imagine this thing popping up on one of those usps lost item auctions...

is there a way to monitor those things? cursory google glance didn't find anything where you can look at usps auction listings

[OPBN]

So are we all assuming that he left it on the porch or was this confirmed?

[debruynda]

usps tracking can be a joke. i bought 2 barrels from Splatplayer and the tracking number still shows it in the Boston area and they came in yesterday. i have had this happen quite frequently.

I was hesitant to comment earlier but this happened to me with a gun I purchased from a guy on this forum last year. It was my first purchase here and I was beginning to spaz when he sent me the tracking number and it never updated for two weeks, kept saying package ready for shipment or shipping label created or some BS. Like Vintage, I received the package and the status never changed. So...you never know, even though it has been a while maybe it is in a warehouse and some schmuck will eventually decide to send it on its way.

As for the contract issue...under common law the liability for the Sender (the guy who was supposed to send you the gun) ends the moment it is received by a common carrier (USPS). This is why people ask for chain of custody (registered mail) and insurance on important stuff to reduce the chance of having to assume the loss. Now, I am not an idiot (well...) and I know this the big issue up for dispute being whether or not USPS ever received it, so if USPS final answer is that they never received it for shipping, then the burden is on the sender to prove he did send it. So, Daywanger, the guy could be liable for the gun still if USPS never took receipt of it, but the next question is how much is it worth to you? Because, you're going to have a tough time getting your money back with a small amount in dispute.

[Dayspring]

I want enough (either from USPS or this guy) to cover the amount of replacing a gun of similar age/type - $550. That's what the insurance was leveled at.

Am I likely to be out a gun? More than likely...:(

[Sandman]

If this guy shipped with insurance for $550 he would have specific proof of the purchase of that insurance. Not just a notification. He would have a straight up receipt.
The post office would certainly have direct evidence of that purchase of insurance relating to that package.
If this person cannot produce those receipts he is most definitely lying.

Sandman

[Dayspring]

Have the receipt that he paid for the insurance. See below.

Just have the disconnect between him boxing it up and USPS picking it up.

Postage Receipt (http://www.nickpapandria.com/stuff/PDF2_redacted.pdf)

[MANN]

good luck working with post office. I had a package with sig confirmation shipped to me that was mis-delivered to someone else. My 1k marker sat at another house for a week before the person contacted me telling me that he got the wrong package. Sad thing is the driver told me he left it with me. The post office would not help, and just kept saying I signed for it.

[Sandman]

It certainly looks like the guy did attempt to ship the package, but even so the burden of proof that he delivered it to the post office or that he witnessed the package being picked up is still on him.
He has not entered into the "contract" with the carrier until he has proof of their receipt. If he failed to get that proof and relied on "chance" that they got it then it's still on him.
If he's a stand up guy, he'll deal with his mistake even if it cost's him $550. You need to make him understand that it's still his fault since he did not get proof that the carrier received the package to be delivered.

We all take that chance everyday when we mail something. Typically though , we are not mailing $550 items. Certain proof is the only way to be protected. It's more expensive but then this will never happen.

Sandman

[OPBN]

If this guy shipped with insurance for $550 he would have specific proof of the purchase of that insurance. Not just a notification. He would have a straight up receipt.
The post office would certainly have direct evidence of that purchase of insurance relating to that package.
If this person cannot produce those receipts he is most definitely lying.

Sandman

If you do the shipping label online, you get a receipt for insurance, but if he fails to take it to the PO it will still show he purchased insurance. Which looking at what he sent you is exactly what he did. He printed it out online and probably left it for the mailman to pick up. IMO, he's totally at fault.

[Frizzle Fry]

IMO, he's totally at fault.

Agreed.

If he even left it for the mailman...

[Robbie]

I would like to offer my sympathies but i wont because you broke one of the rules of trading a gun .
Never ship your gun first especially to someone in California ......come on!
Next you will be shipping first to Texas.
Luckily it was a cocker
Well if you you can find a cool scenario game in that dump of a state we can go and get your brick back.
If you need extra gear for LL7 it will be there.
Good luck daywang.
Crime would never be tolerated in robtown.

[Frizzle Fry]

I would like to offer my sympathies but i wont because you broke one of the rules of trading a gun .
Never ship your gun first especially to someone in California ......come on!
Next you will be shipping first to Texas.
Luckily it was a cocker
Well if you you can find a cool scenario game in that dump of a state we can go and get your brick back.
If you need extra gear for LL7 it will be there.
Good luck daywang.
Crime would never be tolerated in robtown.

:clap:

:rofl:

[Sandman]

I feel like my Father just entered the forum.....


I would like to offer my sympathies but i wont because you broke one of the rules of trading a gun .
Never ship your gun first especially to someone in California ......come on!
Next you will be shipping first to Texas.
Luckily it was a cocker
Well if you you can find a cool scenario game in that dump of a state we can go and get your brick back.
If you need extra gear for LL7 it will be there.
Good luck daywang.
Crime would never be tolerated in robtown.

[Dayspring]

I feel like my Father just entered the forum.....

Yeah - Rob's one of a kind. :D

[Justus]

I feel like my Father just entered the forum.....

lol

I'd be more scared to ship first to TX. At least shipping to CA you're pretty much guaranteed that if you go knock on his door looking for justice, he ain't got a peacemaker behind the hinges.

[debruynda]

I feel like my Father just entered the forum.....

This is funny...

[Jebus]

This is funny...

Hopefully you find it as funny when it happens to you!

Hope it works out Dude!

[Sniper Steve]

I had a similar problem with usps. Buyer never recived the gun I fought the post office they showed no tracking just that it was picked up. I fought them forever they did nothing. I eventually found it on ebay it went to a USPS auction of unclaimed items. Long story short they still did nothing even after I showed them the ebay auction and had proof from the seller that he bought it at their auction. It ended up at the USPS auction before it should have by their own policies they admitted they were in the wrong and that it was their fault but they still did nothing. Ebay finally helped me and gave me a credit on the gun because I proved that I shipped it. The best thing you can do is talk to the the manager at the post office that would have done the shipping through and file a lost package report and get a picture of the item. That picture and description should go to the lost package dept. and if someone sees it should get pulled out before it goes to auction. If I remember right it is like 50 or 60 days they have to hold it before selling it at auction. They did not wait that long though when they sold my package. Good luck.

[Dayspring]

I had a similar problem with usps. Buyer never recived the gun I fought the post office they showed no tracking just that it was picked up. I fought them forever they did nothing. I eventually found it on ebay it went to a USPS auction of unclaimed items. Long story short they still did nothing even after I showed them the ebay auction and had proof from the seller that he bought it at their auction. It ended up at the USPS auction before it should have by their own policies they admitted they were in the wrong and that it was their fault but they still did nothing. Ebay finally helped me and gave me a credit on the gun because I proved that I shipped it. The best thing you can do is talk to the the manager at the post office that would have done the shipping through and file a lost package report and get a picture of the item. That picture and description should go to the lost package dept. and if someone sees it should get pulled out before it goes to auction. If I remember right it is like 50 or 60 days they have to hold it before selling it at auction. They did not wait that long though when they sold my package. Good luck.

Did the whole "send a pic, submit a report and find it before it goes to auction" part.

[debruynda]

Hopefully you find it as funny when it happens to you!

Hope it works out Dude!

Seriously?

I was talking about the dad comment.

[going_home]

Shipping first is not happening with me unless 1) I have a good phone number, and 2) if he is a field owner or a reputable mod.

I never insure with USPS, its pointless.
Their system is set up so it's almost impossible to collect.
However I always ship signature confirmation, that works for any Paypal complaints.

;)