Hypermag frame build on a classic - issues.

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I recently acquired a hyperframe from ska8termog. The frame appears to be working properly but I have been having other issues. I am using an automag classic valve level 7, the on/off that came with the frame and a 3000 psi tank that's putting out about 850psi that is connected with a remote line straight to the valve. My main issue at the moment is the frame fires fine when it isn't gassed up (putting pressure to the sear it clicks once per pull) but when its gassed up it shoots burst while in semi mode and has been venting, at times, out the bolt. I replaced all the O-rings that I thought might be effected; all the on/off O-rings (some twice), the regulator seat and the power tube o-ring. I also tried using different size power tube spacers. The spacers seemed to help a little with the venting (didn't stop it completely) but didn't solve the bursting. Finally this morning after de-gassing the valve (remote line removed) there was still a small amount of air trapped in the valve. When I removed the valve from the frame, the on/off shot out of the valve and hit me in the eye. Apparently I am getting unwanted bounce from the on/off pin but I didn't think the quantity of air that could cause the on/off to be removed from the valve could be stored in the gun after it has been de-gassed. No, the connection to the valve is not one way. Is my issue with the on/off and its O-rings? I am at a loss.

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Maybe the Teflon o-ring for the on/off is not meant to be used with the hyperframe on/off? Maybe the fit is too tight (new O-rings)?

[river031403]

I recently acquired a hyperframe from ska8termog. The frame appears to be working properly but I have been having other issues. I am using an automag classic valve level 7, the on/off that came with the frame and a 3000 psi tank that's putting out about 850psi that is connected with a remote line straight to the valve. My main issue at the moment is the frame fires fine when it isn't gassed up (putting pressure to the sear it clicks once per pull) but when its gassed up it shoots burst while in semi mode and has been venting, at times, out the bolt. I replaced all the O-rings that I thought might be effected; all the on/off O-rings (some twice), the regulator seat and the power tube o-ring. I also tried using different size power tube spacers. The spacers seemed to help a little with the venting (didn't stop it completely) but didn't solve the bursting. Finally this morning after de-gassing the valve (remote line removed) there was still a small amount of air trapped in the valve. When I removed the valve from the frame, the on/off shot out of the valve and hit me in the eye. Apparently I am getting unwanted bounce from the on/off pin but I didn't think the quantity of air that could cause the on/off to be removed from the valve could be stored in the gun after it has been de-gassed. No, the connection to the valve is not one way. Is my issue with the on/off and its O-rings? I am at a loss.

You should pm him

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There isn't anything wrong with the frame. It seems to be working as it should. There seems to be an issue with the valve that is happening and I was hoping for some input from others.

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I have PMed back and forth with him and were are of the same opinion, the frame is fine. I'm sorry if anyway this appeared that there was an issue with him or what he sold me. All is good there. My issues right now is with the valve and what else I might do to get it to co-operate.

[river031403]

Are you using a fresh battery?

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Yes. Battery is not the issue. My best guess and its just a guess at this point, its the on/off or the seals with the on/off. I just got back from Exotic Sports and purchased a Reactor. (I assume you were the one who called to order one.) Hopefully the lighter trigger pull on the reactor will work for me.

[athomas]

A level 7 valve shouldn't hold air when degassed. The air can escape out the inlet when the air line is removed. Are you using a check valve in your air line anywhere?

If the on-off pin is too short, or if air is leaking around one of the top orings (usually the smaller one), it can go full auto or burst.

Have you checked your bolt spring? If it is weak, it can cause bolt stick and venting. It won't allow the bolt to properly reset.

Have you tried turning up the velocity? A low pressure/velocity can cause weird issues with orings leaking and cycle problems.

Try a ULT with the hyper frame. The ULT doesn't work with the classic valve when used with a manual frame, but electronic frames don't have the same issues because the on-off doesn't have to push against the finger on the trigger.

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The frame is working with my retro valve with no issues. Just figured this out today. The bolt spring is good. I haven't attempted to turn up the velocity but the last time I used it (last Sunday) It was shooting around 270 FPS. There is no check valve. I'd prefer not to get a ULT at this time.

I found that the hyperframe on/off sits about 1/16th of an inch higher that the stock on/off. So that when I attempt to install the valve on the body it rubs just slightly (very hard to detect). The hyperframe comes with a new on/off bottom, a spacer and pin. You are suppose to use the on/off top that came with the valve. I may attempt to remove 1/16 of an inch from the spacer to see if having the on/off sit lower in the valve body will help. Ska8termog also suggested that the pin, being new, might need to be worn in. Ideas?

[athomas]

Measure the length of the hyperframe pin.

[river031403]

Shooting video

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The hyperframe pin is .750. I will get a video posted once I get my tanks filled. I tried a few more things today and have gone through all 3 of my 3000 psi tanks.

[river031403]

Get a scuba ;0)

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Get a scuba ;0)

It is definitely a possibility. There is a dive shop about 10 min from my house.

[river031403]

It is definitely a possibility. There is a dive shop about 10 min from my house.

It's a good investment for the tinkererrr

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I am hoping to get this working right by Saturday. I think its an on/off pin length issue with the classic valve. I ordered and received a long pin from Tuna that I will have to tinker with. For now, here is a video of the frame working with my ReTro Valve. Not sure if this is an o-ring that needs to be broken in or maybe a level 10 problem? I just put in a new gold spring and I think the top o-ring on the on/off is new. The first shot in burst mode barely leaves the barrel. The first shot in a string on semi mode does the same.

burst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUSrQAya-nI&feature=player_detailpage

Semi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwgeMXx_9L4&feature=player_detailpage

Any help would be appreciated. I'll post a video of the classic valve after I play with the on/off pin.

[Sk8ermog]

Hey buddy. Those videos are very helpful. It does look like a "breaking in" of the orings issue. Seems like the first shot is just getting that oring moving inside the on/off and then once it gets moving and lubed up the other shots will work fine. Did you try any other older orings like I mentioned before? A good smooth pin movement inside the on/off is very key to helping that clapper noid activate the on/off correctly. Also it could help save some battery life in the long run.

A longer on/off pin might help a little, but then you run the risk of the sear not going through the full movement it needs to go through and you'll have stuck bolt or pin. When you get the pin from Tuna give it a shot, but you might want to slowly trim it down till you find a spot that works for you. I have always had good luck with the stock RT length and sometimes I go a little lower.

Looking forward to seeing the classic valve firing to see if it's the same issue. You are just switching the RT on/off between valves right?

[athomas]

The chamber is obviously charging because subsequent shots are at full velocity, so that means the on-off is opening all the way. The on-off is closing, because the gun is shooting without the bolt stopping and air gushing out the front. That is possibly caused by bolt stick. When the gun sits for a while, the level 10 oring sticks to the bolt stem and slows the bolt down so that some of the air leaks out before the bolt reaches its forward stroke distance causing a low velocity first shot. Usually it can be fixed by using a larger carrier size.

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[QUOTE=Sk8ermog;2856727

You are just switching the RT on/off between valves right?[/QUOTE]

When I use the hypermag on/off with the classic valve gas flows out the power tube almost at full pressure. Sometimes it stops and can be fired and sometimes it doesn't. When this happens I lose about 1000psi from my tank on each attempt. Its about the same with the RT on/off. I already have the pin from Tuna and I'm going to go slow and shave a little at a time to try and get it to work.

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The chamber is obviously charging because subsequent shots are at full velocity, so that means the on-off is opening all the way. The on-off is closing, because the gun is shooting without the bolt stopping and air gushing out the front. That is possibly caused by bolt stick. When the gun sits for a while, the level 10 oring sticks to the bolt stem and slows the bolt down so that some of the air leaks out before the bolt reaches its forward stroke distance causing a low velocity first shot. Usually it can be fixed by using a larger carrier size.

If I fire relatively quickly after a string of shots the low velocity doesn't happen. So I may try the larger carrier. If I don't get snowed in, I'll try it and post a video tomorrow. Thanks.

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Did you try any other older orings like I mentioned before?

When I put in a new o-ring I either throw it away or put it in my used o-ring bin. Not sure what I did with it in this case.

[Sk8ermog]

I think athomas has a better idea regarding the lvl10 spacer being to tight and causing bolt stick. If everything is fine after a few shots then I would look to the lvl10 oring and spacer.

Also sounds like you are forgetting some part of the rt or hyperframe on/off when you put it in your classic valve. Do you still have the 2 orings at the bottom of the on/off hole? If you don't have those orings at the bottom then you will vent out your air quickly like you mentioned.

[BigEvil]

What on/off are you using in your retro? You don necessarily need a ULT. Use an Emag on/off assembly (.712 pin) with the quad oring and it should work fine. Pin length is critical in hyperframes. You can certainly use the ULT, the issue sometimes is that it cannot return the solenoid plunger reliably enough. If you try it, put 6 shims in it.

If you are using the classic valve with the centerflag on/off, DO NOT use the white Teflon oring. Also, FYI the centerflag pin lengthis .740. You can use a RT on/off with a .740 pin in a classic valve and it will work just the same.

You also might want to adjust your dwell higher. I forget what they call it on the Hyperframe board.. if you need the manual let me know.

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Do you still have the 2 orings at the bottom of the on/off hole? If you don't have those orings at the bottom then you will vent out your air quickly like you mentioned.

In order that they are placed in the valve - wide o-ring, small o-ring, on/off top that came with the classic valve, the hypervalve spacer and the hypervalve bottom. Last I place the hyperframe on/off pin through everything and make sure the small o-ring is placed on top. However, when everything goes together it sticks up about 1/16" higher than a normal classic on/off. This makes the on/off rub ever so slightly as the valve is placed into the body. Since it worked well on my classic valve when I first received it, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I may have slightly bent the on/off pin. If it is slightly bent, maybe the small o-ring isn't seating properly with the pin and causing my woes. I'm not sure how to test this theory.

[athomas]

Put the pin on a mirror and role it around. If it wobbles, it is bent.

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I took apart the level 10 bolt and decided to try a new o-ring. The o-ring in there was yellowed and I thought it could use a change. I'm stuck between the 1 and 1.5 carriers. At 1 the marker won't shoot. At 1.5 I am getting about the same as above. No noticeable air leaking from anywhere. I just changed the gold spring that was in it. Should I try increasing air pressure? Shims but on which carrier. I've been experimenting a bit and I'm almost out of air again.

I just noticed athomas response about the pin - that's the pin with the hypermag on/off I will look into that later, thanks. I'm using an rt on/off here.

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Is using more than 2 or 3 shims unheard of?

[athomas]

Is using more than 2 or 3 shims unheard of?Using any shims at all is very rare. The shims only adjust how far the bolt needs to travel before the vent hole in the bolt stem becomes exposed and can vent air. The shims are so thin that they really don't change the distance that much. The distance that the bolt moves, if it moves, is usually more than the thickness of a few shims, even if it hits an object in the breach.

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going_home talked me through a few things on Friday. Managed to get the ReTro frame and level 10 to cooperate. My major problem was my velocity was way too low. I thought it should have been shooting around 270fps but maybe because I added a new gold spring it was shooting much lower. When I got to the field yesterday (and this was after turning it up a little) it was shooting around 220. Everything worked well with the ReTro valve. Now I have to get it to work with my Classic valve. This will involve me shaving down an RT pin. Thanks to all those who have helped so far and there may be more on the way with the Classic valve.

[athomas]

Everything worked well with the ReTro valve. Now I have to get it to work with my Classic valve. Use the same on-off assembly in your classic valve. They are interchangeable size wise.

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I've tried the RT on/off and it leaks horribly. I'm thinking the RT pin is too short for the classic valve. I bought a long pin from Tuna and when I have time I'm going to shave it down.

[BigEvil]

Leaks from where ??

[athomas]

I've tried the RT on/off and it leaks horribly. I'm thinking the RT pin is too short for the classic valve. I bought a long pin from Tuna and when I have time I'm going to shave it down.The standard length of an RT on-off pin is the same as a classic on-off pin. It would have to be significantly shorter than the standard lenth to cause problems. Even then, it would only cause ful auto issues and then possibly bolt stick which would then allow air to leak out the front of the bolt. If it's leaking anywhere else or if it leaks when the bolt is fully reset, then the pin is not the problem.

If the retro on-off assembly is working without leaks in the retro valve, then it should work without leaks in the classic valve. There are no differences in the overall size of the on-off assemblies. If the retro valve is an older one it won't have the larger outer oring at the on-off top. You will have to add the larger outer oring to the on-off assembly when you install it in the classic valve.

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I'm going to take a look at it again today or tomorrow and grab a video if I think it will help. I used both o-rings with the RT on/off and it was leaking out of the power tube quite heavily if I remember correctly.

[athomas]

You are still using the level 7 bolt in the classic valve, right? If the bolt resets properly but leaks out the front, then the powertube spacer is too long. If the bolt does not reset properly, then the powertube spacer is too short. Try using a longer powertube spacer. If you don't have additional spacers, add a couple of level 10 shims in front of the spacer that is installed.

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I either remembered the issue wrong or its doing something new. The ReTro Valve works with no issues. The classic valve works w no issues. I drop the RT on/off in the Classic and drop it in the setup the ReTro valve came from and absolutely nothing happens. The solenoid clicks but nothing else. Maybe I remembered the issue wrong, does a short pin make sense now?

[athomas]

That's strange. If both valves work individually in the same setup, and the retro on-off assembly works in the retro valve, then it should also work in the classic valve. The pin length shouldn't need to change if it worked in the retro valve previously. I don't know the answer to this one. It has to be something that is being overlooked.

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The classic valve works with a different on/off in its original set-up but when I put the RT on/off in the classic valve and drop it in the setup with the hyperframe, I get nothing. I've been busy with a few things. When I get a few minutes I'll get back to it.

[athomas]

The retro valve works in the hyperframe thought, right? Then the classic valve should also work with the hyperframe using the same on-off assembly.

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You are still using the level 7 bolt in the classic valve, right? If the bolt resets properly but leaks out the front, then the powertube spacer is too long. If the bolt does not reset properly, then the powertube spacer is too short. Try using a longer powertube spacer. If you don't have additional spacers, add a couple of level 10 shims in front of the spacer that is installed.
I got a new RT on/off today from a friend and it is leaking air out the front. So I checked the power tube and this valve is still using a spring instead of a spacer. I tried every spacer I had but there was no noticeable difference. I just tuned my other classic valve and one spacer is missing from the set. The valve leaks immediately when air is attached to the asa and the bolt, at times, will cycle (or try to). Would you suggest using the biggest spacer I have and then try shims?

[river031403]

I got a new RT on/off today from a friend and it is leaking air out the front. So I checked the power tube and this valve is still using a spring instead of a spacer. I tried every spacer I had but there was no noticeable difference. I just tuned my other classic valve and one spacer is missing from the set. The valve leaks immediately when air is attached to the asa and the bolt, at times, will cycle (or try to). Would you suggest using the biggest spacer I have and then try shims?

Just send it to tuna already

[athomas]

So I checked the power tube and this valve is still using a spring instead of a spacer. I tried every spacer I had but there was no noticeable difference. I just tuned my other classic valve and one spacer is missing from the set. The valve leaks immediately when air is attached to the asa and the bolt, at times, will cycle (or try to). Would you suggest using the biggest spacer I have and then try shims?If it is leaking, use a shorter spacer, not a longer one. Put the spring on end on a flat surface and place your shortest powertube spacer beside it. If the spacer is shorter than the spring, use it. If not, you can sand down your spring. If you have some sandpaper, place it sand side up on a flat surface. Rub one end of the spring against the sandpaper until it shaves enough metal off the spring to shorten its length enough to stop your leak.

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As I was about ready to chuck this valve through my kitchen window, I realized that when I get this working the way I want it, it will need a level 10 bolt in it to prevent chopping. So, I ordered a level 10 for this valve. I will post my results when it arrives and I've had time to work with it (either a video of me throwing it out my kitchen window or a video of it working). Thanks for all the help.

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Got my level 10 bolt kit yesterday and got it installed with no issues. The hyperframe now works perfectly with my classic valve (a new RT on/off installed). I promised to take video but I am almost out of paint. I wanted to free up my ReTro valve because I wanted to run a ninja SHP tank for some RTing action. When the tank arrived the ReTro valve worked great but now its acting a little sluggish. I guess if it isn't one thing, its another but I guess that will be for another thread if I need help. Thanks to all who helped me get this setup working. Without the help I'm sure I would have been replacing my kitchen window.