Suggestion for AIRGUN DESIGNS.

[RSUAVE911]

I am not sure if this question has been posed, I do not remember it being asked but why hasn't airgun designs tried to put out a low pressure marker. I think it would be an excellent addition to the "new line" of products that AGD is putting out. This could boost people's feelings about the company by following through with NEW ideas from an OLD reliable company. If AGD is looking for new marketing ideas and ways to get their guns into more tournaments this is the way to do it. Just my two cents. :)

[Predater]

i dont now whare but it is talked about that a low presure mag slows doun the speed the bolt moves which taks it longer to move out and then back in. I dont have a problem with the presure i just want a bolt that is easy on paint.

By the way someware around hear they talk about the paintball only seaing 60 psi or so. I think that is pretty low presure.

[ThePatriot]

I also have seen on this board that Mags run at the lowest psi of any gun, but they need more to propell the ball, or something like that. Tom?

[RSUAVE911]

I am talking about a whole new marker, rather than a modification of the old automag. And I have never seen an lp mod done to a mag and I do not think it will work either.

[Predater]

Smart parts made a low pressur device. a smartbox i think. it slowed down the bolt. the gun wouldnt cycle as fast.

Why do they need a new valve? The retro is the fastest recharging valve and if you now what you are doing you wont break any more paint than you would with an angel or other gun.

They dont need to change the valve at all.

[RSUAVE911]

Ok first off, a new marker would help AGD marketing, not changing the retro valve would not. Also, in order to get the retro valve to work on low pressure, modifications would be needed in order for it to work.


"if you now what you are doing you wont break any more paint than you would with an angel or other gun."

I know what I am doing, low pressure markers do not only bring less breakage but as well as many other things.

1. Better gas efficiency - more shots per fill.
2. Better velocity stability - less variation from shot to shot.
3. Quieter operation.

[Predater]

The emag is new and awsome. There really are low presure mods out there but all they reallu do is caust a lot of mony and slow doun the speed of the gun. The mag realy has like 60 or 80 psi behind the ball. That is prety low pressure. I dont break any paint unless i out shoot my hopper. The lowpresure guns are light on paint not because of the presure but because there is less spead on the bolt when it hits the ball and they are closed bolt so the pressure doesnt effect the speed of the bolt.

For gass eficincy, get a tank that will last a gaim and then fill it. That isnt a problem.

My rt has a stable velocity. My first shot is at 255 and the rest in that string are at 283 to 285 wich is the field limit(285). I have tested the speed thing time and time again.

Buy the right berrel and your mag will be prety freaking quiet. my gun is just a hair louder than the ematrix's and angels at the field i play on.

[InfinatyBPS]

What AGD needs to do is find a way for the ball not to be totaly killed when there is a misfire, like a cocker sometimes just pinches the ball. Thats what AGD needs to do. Because there is so much force that pushes the bolt forward that there is no chance that the ball will get pinched. It's like a cocker, stick ur finger in the chamber, fire, it will only pinch it, depending on how low the pressure ur running at. But do this with a mag(please don't) you finger will be fired across the feild...

[RSUAVE911]

This wasn't the point though. People do not want to do all of this to have a low pressure gun. And I have never seen a mag run at 60-80 psi.


Again, people do not want to buy everything to accomodate the marker, but to have the marker accomodate their equipment such as a tank. Low pressure markers are proven more consistent than high pressure markers, whether your marker is consistent is not the point.

[Predater]

I agree. dont redo the gun just make a way to lighten up the blender effect when you chop paint.

[Micromag man!]

Actually, lower pressure=Less shots pur tank....:rolleyes:

[Predater]

go to deap blue. I think that is whare they talk about the mags only having 60 psi hitting the ball. That is true.

evryone buys products to acomidate there guns and style of play. If you buy a stock cocker you will put a grand in it to get it to fire how you want it to. just like with any other gun. The presure isnt what maks them consistant. how fast the gun can recharge is.

Mags really do only have like 60 psi hitting the ball. If you dont believe me do a serch.

[Rynoboy06]

I would like more efficiency, etc, as much as the next person, but I haven't broken a single ball in my last 3000 shots on my stock-internals Z-gripped RT pro. I'm also unsure about low-pressure markers having been "proved" more consistant than mags. I think most really expensive guns are both consistant and low-pressure, but I don't see that as necessarily linked. Look at the consistancy results for the 68 automag at www.pbstar.com. There's not much more you can ask for after 2-3 fps deviation. I also doubt that AGD will be leaving the automag format and making completely separate guns as well as mags.

[FooTemps]

HMMM... Didn't tom say something about a project AGD is working on? Something about updating or developing?

[bofh]

Originally posted by RSUAVE911
I know what I am doing, low pressure markers do not only bring less breakage but as well as many other things.

1. Better gas efficiency - more shots per fill.
2. Better velocity stability - less variation from shot to shot.
3. Quieter operation.
and

Originally posted by RSUAVE911
Low pressure markers are proven more consistent than high pressure markers, whether your marker is consistent is not the point.

Where is this "proven"? Who did it and how? What makes you think that Low pressure is better than High Pressure? And Low pressure where? What's a Low pressure anyway, 400psi? 200psi? 100psi? 50psi?

Low vs. High pressure is just like Closed vs Open bolt debate. And what you're spreading is nothing but FUD.

[RSUAVE911]

I am not spreading FUD, whatever that is. I was just trying to give AGD a new product to maybe boost sales. This was not meant to put down other markers but as the title says a suggestion. Majority of people feel that low pressure is more consistent, I guess from 50-200 is considered low presssure. Like a cocker, automags also need to know how to pinch the ball, automags can not do that.


Also usually low pressure markers are quieter and more efficient. I was not putting down other markers, just giving a suggestion for a newer marker, for an alternative to other AGD marker. So chill out. :cool:

[bofh]

Originally posted by RSUAVE911
I am not spreading FUD, whatever that is.

Fear, Uncertainity and Doubt. It's normally done without any proof, but a whole lot of feelings.


Originally posted by RSUAVE911
Majority of people feel that low pressure is more consistent,

A Majority of people also think that closed bolt markers shoot farther. A Majority of people believe in Aliens. What really matters are results. RT's can get to within +/- 3fps. So do Angels. Palmer's can get even closer... and yet none of them are Low Pressure.


Originally posted by RSUAVE911
I guess from 50-200 is considered low presssure.

Input pressure or behind the ball? The mags input pressure is around 800psi (roughly) the dump chamber is around 400psi, and the force that hits the paintball is supposedly around 60psi. What part is the low pressure part?


Originally posted by RSUAVE911
Like a cocker, automags also need to know how to pinch the ball, automags can not do that.

Why would Automags need to pinch balls? Wouldn't a ACE be better? Something the prevent the pinch from happening in the first place?


Originally posted by RSUAVE911
Also usually low pressure markers are quieter and more efficient.

Actually, I'll give you that low pressure markers are normally quieter, most of the noise is the extra gas expanding once it leaves the barrel. I'm not so sure on efficient, I've heard the Shocker, (if memory serves me right) is a horrible gashog.

RSUAVE911, I'm not attacking you personally, but the ideas at the center of the debate. I want you to question yourself about why you believe Low Pressure is better. Step away from automags, even.

Are low pressure 'cockers really any better than normal 'cockers?

[Miscue]

Originally posted by RSUAVE911


Also usually low pressure markers are quieter and more efficient

Nope. Low pressure does not mean efficient. There are low pressure guns that are gas-hogs. Low pressure is a side-effect of efficient design, not the other way around.

Mags have a barrel pressure at about 60psi. This pressure isn't the only thing involved in determining what forces are put on the ball. AGD is currently working on the matter so that the Mag will be SupahFly with brittle paint.

[bofh]

Originally posted by Miscue
SupahFly with brittle paint.

Is that the technical term for then? :)

[HoppysMag]

Originally posted by RSUAVE911
Also usually low pressure markers are quieter and more efficient



LOL......Hoppy points to VM68 and laughs.... More efficient.....LOL..............Ok guys Tom is hard at work makin the 45K flatlines, Y grips, and now intella Z's not to mention getting the superbolt back on track.........Lets not give Tom anything more he can make and use to take over the world.........Hoppy laughs a diabolical laugh...Muhhhh ha ha muhhh Ha ha Muhhh HaHa................

[RSUAVE911]

I guess in theory markers who are low pressure supposed to be better gas efficiency cockers, angels, excals, but I guess not always shockers, matrix before bolt kit. I am defintely no spreading FUD considering I have own both an e-mag and an rt, so I am not favored towards a cocker or whatever and have a lot of great feelings for one, but I dislike cockers.


The whole point of this was not to debate, whether low pressure or higher pressure markers are better. You turned it into a debate between lp and hp. The point was to show that many people like lower pressure guns, I was simply giving some reasons why. I have never owned a low pressure marker in my like so I am least biased towards an lp marker.


Please quote me where you saw me say "lower pressure is better," because I do not remember saying that. :)

[Smoken]

One important point that I do not believe has been made is this: in paintball it does not matter so much if a low presure marker is more accurate, more efficient, etc. All that really matters, as far as sales are concerned, is that people BELIEVE low pressure markers are more efficient, more accurate, etc. I do NOT think such hype is the way AGD decides what to produce (I do not feel they should either "Because quality always shoots straight"). If their goal is to sell more guns though, it does not matter if the new gun performs any better than the current design; all that matters is that people THINK it works better, thanks to all the marketing of from the manufacturers of low pressure guns that have brainwashed the common paintballer into believing whatever they say (another function of the elves and all that extra stuff in the angel handle that no one really knows what it does). Many may disagree with me, but these are my thoughts.

[Butterfingers]

Lower pressure guns are usually slower.

Ball breakage is determined by pressure behind the ball in the barrel. Which directly effects acceleration curves.

The Mag currently has the lowest barrel pressure (60 psi)only bested by the matrix which was determined to be 45 psi behind the ball.

In the mag, the dump chanber has a fixed volume as the air expands to fill the bolt and powertube and the space behind the ball in the breach the ball only sees 60 psi.

LP is mostly hype. The only real advantage is the modest acceleration curve that it produces which is easier on paint. This is determined by barrel pressure. In which the mag is already the second lowest.

Pressure dosent determine efficency. Gun design does.

The matrix is a horrible LP gas hog so is the shocker.

While the high pressure F4 illustrator boasts 900 shots out of a 9oz co2. Pretty much the best out of any mass produced gun.

Paint breakage has a lot more to do with other factors than it does pressure.

Dont belive the hype. Out of all the things you hear about LP I can say that only 10% is true. Its IMPLIED advantages have just been marketed beyond its truthful advantage.

I don't think a redesign is necessary. Marketing, however is. But thats another topic.

[bofh]

Originally posted by RSUAVE911
Please quote me where you saw me say "lower pressure is better," because I do not remember saying that. :)

Gladly. But don't take this personally, I'm not trying to attack you here. I want to dispell the myth that low pressure markers are better. And more importantly, the myth that you need a Low pressure marker to compete. Either as a company or as a player.


Originally posted by RSUAVE911
low pressure markers do not only bring less breakage but as well as many other things.

1. Better gas efficiency - more shots per fill.
2. Better velocity stability - less variation from shot to shot.
3. Quieter operation.

Your saying here that Low Pressure markers are more accurate... (number 2) Accuracy being dependant velocity stability. There's no proof of that, and there's no theory to base that off of. A high flow - low pressure reg, is just as un-stable as a low flow - high pressure reg. (un-stable being a bad choice of words, but I can't think of anything better right now.)

[Mossman]

IMHO the only thing mags could really benefit for from lower pressure is that they could suck a tank dry. If all else was kept equal, this would add more shots per fill, because once my RT got below 600psi it would shoot like crap, short stroke when i didnt short stroke it, etc. So at 600psi or even 650 psi, my 3000psi tank was as good as empty. Cockers or Novas or whatever LP capable gun you want to talk about that can shoot decent with 250 psi coming from the tank will get more shots, that is if all else is made equal.

[Top Secret]

I've found my E-Mag w/Flatline to be extremely consistant and just as accurate as must "wonder-gun" low pressure cockers while I still use the stock barrel. I believe the E-Mag is THE definative paintball gun. Low-Pressure means quiet, but not much else. But I'm sure Tom will find a way to improve on perfection. :D

[RSUAVE911]

Ok again you are trying to debate why low pressure markers are not better and that is not the point.

Again, I was stating some PROS of lp markers, I never said they were better than high pressure markers. These PROs were based on what the majority of people who own them think. You for some reason thought I said LP are better. If you would like me to state some CONS of lp markers I will but it will not serve purpose to this thread.