Bunker Tag & Refs Delema's

[cphilip]

Ok...so we had our second annual Clemson "Spyder class" only Tourney this Saturday. We had some real interesting things happen on the field related to restricting the Bunkering to Tags. It realy was a difficult thing to Referee. We had three indcidents that were confusing and hard to call to some extent. This might get long so tune out now or go get another cup of coffee and relieve yourself before proceeding...


Situation: Walt aka fatman was head ref. Me ref at the 30-40 percent area down low.

1st incident: We had this one bunker that was pretty wide. I would say about 7 or 8 feet. It consisted of a large square plastic tank, a pallet and two plastic barrels on the end shaping it like a T. A player advanced to this bunker who was out of paint. An apposing player came put to run and tag his bunker but did so on the opposite end. I called the player out who was hiding behind the two barrels but this was later reveresed by Walt due to the distance. My initial call was due to the fact that the person was in a defensive position and the tagger was on the offense and had paint in his marker while the person I called out did not. Could have gone either way I guess.

2nd incident: This game was down to one on one. The kid named Steve advanced up the field and tagged a bunker no one was in. The survivor of the other team had vacated it already and was out of paint. However Steves marker had jammed as well making his marker esentially out of paint in a way. Eventually Steve located him but still was not aware he was out of paint. He aproached by making to a closer bunker and this opposing player then decided to rush the bunker for a tag. Steve saw this and took off out of the bunker and went to another and the opposing palyer followed him. A real funny game of chase went on for a moment but Steve decided to stay in the second bunker and was called out. You see the problem? Can anyone realy be out when both markers involved are down and ineffective? And why didn't either one of these two players think to forget the bunker tag nonsense and go for the flag? That was the best option but they didn't!


Third and last situation: My Son Caleb had reached a forward bunker into the oppositions side of the field. His Marker jammed. So he decides to push up one more. An aposing player, who is out of paint, decides to make a run and tag the bunker. Caleb see's him very soon after he is out of his bunker and coming. Having witnessed the confusion from earlier on these tag calls he jumped back about three strides behind the bunker and sprints to the side of it. He clears the side of it about the time the opposing player slides into the other side of the bunker. So I do not call the tag as he is in my opinion "out" of the bunker. In other words the bunker was no longer affording him very much protection and he is now out in the open and exposed to enemy fire. Another judge is directly behind Caleb on his side of this bunker and no calls it too. At about this point Caleb is turning the corner of the bunker, or about to, advancing on the would be tagger and he lays down on him and starts screaming "Surrender" over and over. The guys does surrender but before I can make the out call they both get lit up from all sides who have obviously recovered from sitting and being spectators for this brief moment and both these two are splattered making the call a mute point really as they both are not out by paint anyway. Since I had not had time to call the would be tagger out he was still live for a moment when the paint came in to take the issue away. And had I gotten it called Caleb would still not have made it back into the bunker before this paint rain came. I think the both got hit by both teams in a cross fire. But I called them both out and it stuck.


I have thought about what other moves can a person make and how this is judged a lot since then. In Calebs case could he have backed out of the bunker and then run right back up to it and tagged the would have been tagger out? Or was the move he made (which was actualy quite brilliant realy when you think of it! :) ) the right way to react so as to eliminate any argument. I think any time you can take it out of the hands of a judging call and make a clearer play to be called you are better off. SHould the guy in the first incident have been out despite the unussual length of the bunker? Obviously the second incident they could have run around in circles till game timed out before they had thought to go for the flag but can someone with no paint in his marker realy tag someone out?

But I hope you can see how difficult it is to play no bunkering games and how to Ref them fairly. Discussion? Walt? Any input from you on this?

[FatMan]

Well, my first input is that it is quite unseemly for a ref to be laughing at the thing he is reffing. I hope no one noticed me doing that :o

Second, this is the classic argument for why you can't eliminate the bunker move there just isn'y anyway to deal with two aggressive players moving on each other. The best alternative is the modified bunker rule, which allows a close quarters shot, but only after asking for surrender. That works in rec games, but not in a tourney. When both players are willing to make and accept the bunker move requiring a surrender request puts the aggressor in a disadvantage. :confused:

So I guess we should hear what the wisdom of AO has to say.

FatMan

[cphilip]

Yes! you have to agree that no bunkering and using the tag rule is extremely frustrating to try and come up with a clear distinction that the players can use to extract themselves from a tag. And that the Refs can call clearly. Making it almost unworkable.

I was kind of taken by surprise that we had so many of them Saturday and I personaly had not pre-thought out all the potential problems with it. I learned a lot of things from it though. Surrender rule is superior now I think but had not thought it would be before then. And I think some players were taking advanage of the tag rule after they saw it could extracate them from an otherwise impossible situation.

It was impossible to not laugh at that first one. All of us Refs were like...What the heck do we do now? :D

[zekewh]

Alright, I am a ref at our field. Paintball Arkansas if anyone has heard of it before. Anyway, when I ref, I let there be bunker tagging. I tell them the rules that if you are behind a bunker, and someone goes up to that bunker and yells, "bunker tag", you are out. For me, does not matter how big the bunker is. That whole bunker is their protection. Now, for your son as he backed out of the bunker and went back in. You were right. He left the bunker and was in the open came back and got the other guy to surrender. One time when I was playing some rec ball, had a ton of walk-ons that day. The last game for me, I decided to use my mag. Well, the barrel hole got stuck the other way so no paintballs could feed. Basically, no paintballs. Played anyway. Ran to the right tape 50yd. As I got into the bunker, about 20 sec later, some guy ran into the other side. He did not know I was already in there. I hit the bunekr and yelled bunker tag, he was out. Lol, even got one person to surrender. But, I believe who ever gets in the bunker first and yells bunker tag, stays in. My 2cents worth.

[cphilip]

Well...the thing I least like about it is it makes the Ref's more a part of the live game. And actualy they should be as little involved in the actual eliminations during live play if they can. Having to decide if someone is in or out of the bunker when the tag came is a subjective call. And may tend to vary from Ref to Ref and angle of view etc. And if you are playing surrender rule its all between the players then. The Ref just validates what happened.

[Jonno06]

in my opinion this bunker tag stuff sounds stupid....at my field,we make the newbies surrender from 10 feet,and the obviously more expierenced players we can bunker....i got bunkered yesterday...

[Bluntman]

Bunker tag sounds way to confusing. I say get rid of it, but sometimes that doesn't always help. Like yesterday my brother was in the back at this giant spool shooting at my teammate whos at the 50 tapeline. I have the flag and was just kinda lying around cause the 50 blows, so I move up the middle of the field, so my brother can't see me, then run past his bunker and shoot at him. I missed. He turns to me and says you didn't hit me, and he hasn't hit me either. So we both open fire. Now that I've replayed the story in my head it's not all that relevant, but it took awhile to type so I'm not removing it.

[FatMan]

So, bunker tag for experienced players IS stupid. What we have been trying to do is prevent newbies from bunkering each other. REQUIRED surrender at 10ft is just bunker tag without the bunker - you have the same problems as with bunker tag, only worse (cause at least with bunker tag you can say someone is or is not in that bunker and someone did or did not tag it).

Requiring that a player REQUEST surrender inside 10ft is the best compromise I can come up with. This puts some control into the hands of the aggressee who can either surrender or try to shoot his way out. Of course the problem is the aggressor is at a disadvantage because HE has to stop and decide if the aggressee is going to surrender or not.

On the other hand, the aggressor doesn't HAVE to make a bunker move. When *I* play newbies I DON'T RUSH THEIR BUNKER. I come around the side and shoot from a distance (Phil, remember what I did to those two guys Saturday afternoon?). With a bunker tag rule, there is incentive to USE the rule, especially if you are out of paint. With a surrender OPTION rule, if you rush someone and you are out of paint, you can't argue if the guy turns and hoses you. But if you want to avoid the situation, stay away and shoot. If you end up in close quarters by accident, then you ask for surrender and hope you are faster than the other guy.

After our experiences this weekend, I think this is the way to go.

FatMan

[Jonno06]

lol bluntman...if i run out of paint,i just run to a back bunker,and call out the other teams positions,and let the guys with paint do their stuff....i dont mind getting bunkered,but i understand newbies do.the bunkertag rule is just way complicated for newbies,if you tell them to surrender,and they shoot you,thats your problem for running out of paint,i play hopperball,and i hardly ever run out of paint.

[talls]

While I understand why there is a bunker tag rule in order to make the game safer; I have to say that it can cause more problems than it cures. I believe that bunkering is part of the game and people should get used to it if they plan on playing any major tournaments. I know bunkering can intimidate younger players but after you have been bunkered a couple times that fear goes away. I don't know if I would ever remember to yell "bunker tag" as I am so used to playing all out paintball. I understand how it can be safer and I am all for people having fun so if that is what it takes I guess it can be necessary for younger players. However, as cphilip has shown it can result in many problems that can make some tough calls for refs. That is why in my personnal opinion it will always be better to have the surrender rule if anything. So that at least there is not any of these extremly confusing calls.

[Cardinal_Biggles]

I am personally of the belief that regardless of the situation, I won't surrender. Because of this I've been lit up a few time from point blank, but it was my decision to make. All the rec fields I've ever played at have a 15-20 ft surrender rule where you ask the person to surrender and give them 1.2 seconds to do so. Generally, if they make any move before stating that they surrender you can shoot them, but at the field yesterday I came across a situation I'd never seen before. I was out of paint as usual, and was up on the front lines, so I was going to try and fake out a player to make them surrender. I run and jump over a log and get shot twice in the back by a guy I didn't know had been there. I was perfectly fine with being out, but the ref called the player who shot me out for not asking me to surrender! His shots were reflex because I surprised the heck out of him, but because he didn't pause to ask me to surrender, and possibly get shot, he got out.:( This didn't make sense to me, and for the most part the ref was totally cool and a nice guy, so I didn't see why he'd make such a call.
The moral to this story is, sometimes there just isn't a right way to replace the bunker move. All these distance rules and whatnot are confusing and can easily lead to bad calls.
My two cents...

[Jonno06]

yesterday while playing the 50,the other player was right on the other side of my bunker,my teammate tells me,so i shoot surrender,and shoot the wood near him,he yells surender to me,and sticks his gun around the corner,i tried to shoot his gun,but his angel easily lights me up...i dont mind,thats another problem w/ surrender rules

[Trunnion]

we play with surrender requests at 10ft or on a bunker move(provided we're playing with newbies). if the defender attempts a move, or doesn't call himself out, he gets shot. it leaves alot in the hands of the agressor, but the field is small and the refs are usually close to what's happening, so it's hard to get away with blantant abuses of the rule. the tag rule sounds difficuly and inefficient. i would suggest a surrender request rule

[KiXiLe]

That is a horrible, horrible, horrible idea!! Pros using "mercy rules"? You must be kidding me...

Now, I understand perfectly that there have been problems with bunkering in the past, specifically in the Pros where people will overshoot when bunkering (as in, a dozen or more shots) and thus cause serious injury to the other player. But the only way to solve this problem is to face it, not shy away.

There are many other solutions that deal with this problem more effectively. I think the best option is to fine players that over do it; if you shoot the other player after it is clear that he is out, you gotta pay $200 or $300 or $500 or give up part of your prizes or something. A second option would be to penalize players just like in soccer - with yellow and/or red cards. Red card and you sit out that game and the next, and your team has to play 1 man down. This would send an especially strong signal in 3 or 4 or 5 man tournys, where every man counts for a significant portion of the team.

The only time these horrendous "tag" rules could be used is in newbie games. The worst thing that is going to happen, barring someone popping off a few dozen shots, is a little bleeding and some pain. Big whoop, that's what we play paintball for right! The blood and pain! Getting a bit worked up there.....

Any ways, bunkering is my favorite part of the sport. I love bunkering and being bunkered. If they took that away from us at our local fields, I don't think I would play half as much as I do now.

What else kicks your heart into gear and gets the adrenaline pumping like running up on a bunker does? Nothing....Monday night and the paintball bloodlust is already kicking in....sheeesh!!

So long 'till next time!

[cphilip]

Originally posted by KiXiLe
That is a horrible, horrible, horrible idea!! Pros using "mercy rules"? You must be kidding me...

Kidding? No.... but you must not have read any of the posts...we are talking about NEWBIES! :rolleyes:

[KiXiLe]

OK OK you got me. I did skim them pretty thouroughly though!

Anyways, how new to the game can they be if they are playing in a tournament? Granted, they may not be "experienced," but I don't think they would still be considered "newbies"...

In any event, I will shut my trap now :)

[cphilip]

Got cha KiXiLe! Don't worry about it at all. I am guilty of that myself sometimes.
:(



:D

[FatMan]

Well, except that is was a tournament for newbies only. So they WERE all newbies.

FatMan

[bushjumper]

My opinion is that having any sort of "bunker tag" is a bad idea. Ideally, the experienced players would not bunker a newbie, and if someone did get bunkered, the person who did it wouldn't overshoot. Of course, this is asking too much from some people, so we have to come up with some sort of solution.

Here is what I would do...

If this was a pro tournament, then you strictly enforce rules against overshooting, and let the players bunker each other.

If this was newbies only, then you explain that they can ask for a surrender, that if the person does not surrender, they can shoot them, and again enforce rules against overshooting. Also, explain to them what happens when they sit and hide in a bunker with their heads in the sand.

If the game is a mix of pro's versus newbies (recball, there shouldn't be any such tournament), you strictly enforce rules against overshooting, you ask the pro players to give the newbies a chance to surrender, and you watch the pro players and make sure they don't get too agressive.


bj

[mattyfatty182]

At the field I play (and ref summers) at lets anyone bunker anyone...Think of it this way...If your out of paint, you go out, unless you wanna get shot...So you are taking the risk of getting bunkered. It's all part of the game, unless you over shoot, then I get sorta mad. If I get shot one/two times, i'm ok, but when I get shot four or five times..I get sorta angry.

[MicroB]

I Ref at my field and we don't bunker tag. In novice walk-on you cannot bunker. We have a 10 ft. rule you are not allowed to shoot anyone within 10 feet. you are not allowed to advance on someone more than 10 feet. If someome is 10 feet in front of you, or in the bunker imediatley in front of you, You are stuck. Unless you swing out 10 feet and shoot them or allow your team mates to shoot them. On the break is different we have on many ocasions allowed opposing players to occupy the same bunker on different side without any problems. They know that they can not shoot each other(very funny to watch :D ). In cases where a player does advance we simply send them back to the bunker from whence they came. All in all I beleive bunker tagging is too difficult to ref, as players can move very quickly and refs may not catch everything. The last thing a ref. wants to do is make a "judgement" call, this only leaves players thinking they were cheated.:rolleyes:

My Opinion Thx, B :)