since the cockers guys getting some love maybe we can too?

[dodge3500]

Well with the twisters and sfl autocockers coming back from the grave how about a xmag release for us automag fans?maybe a Luke's mag?or a xmt mag?I'm talking a pre order completed and anodized mag.My ripper mag is out for anno and its been a fun but costly adventure that I don't plan on doing again any time soon but I sure would jump on a sweet release of a xmag or a emag,karta mag so on and so fourth.I mean if they can bring back shocktec sfl autocockers and bps twisters the old school market is there.I would definitely get on a pre order on a sweet arse mag.
What do you guys think?or am I rambling about something that's never gonna happen much less even possible?

[going_home]

I think your biggest hurdle is getting 25 people lined up with money in hand for a prebuy.

No one would want to incur all the expense of buying parts and materials without most of the money up front.

And most informed AO members know the history of prebuys on this forum.

I waited what, almost 6 years for the Logic mag that finally showed up in pieces in a box.

Took Scott months to get it going.


:beemmeup:

[SummaryJudgement]

Well with the twisters and sfl autocockers coming back from the grave how about a xmag release for us automag fans?maybe a Luke's mag?or a xmt mag?I'm talking a pre order completed and anodized mag.My ripper mag is out for anno and its been a fun but costly adventure that I don't plan on doing again any time soon but I sure would jump on a sweet release of a xmag or a emag,karta mag so on and so fourth.I mean if they can bring back shocktec sfl autocockers and bps twisters the old school market is there.I would definitely get on a pre order on a sweet arse mag.
What do you guys think?or am I rambling about something that's never gonna happen much less even possible?

Where a are Twisters being listed/sold at?

[going_home]

Where a are Twisters being listed/sold at?

http://www.committedpaintball.com/

My google-fu is strong tonight.

;)

[Nobody]

This will not happen. I truly wish to be wrong on this, but after some talks with a small shop this weekend, it all but confirms that the odds are that you will be struck by lightning, while getting bitten by a shark, while sinking a hole in one.

1) pre-order history. It plain sucks on AO. I can not blame anyone, but the history is the history. It will take the right product, at the right time to get that magical number to push this through.

2) 50lbs of cash. That is basically what it would take for someone to come up with a design, cad it up, run prototypes to check tolerances and code, buy raw material, take it to the machinists and get something working. That isn't even taking into consideration the small stuff like screws, the valves, the parts that make up the guns. Each person involved needa to be payed for their time and running their machines. Even if you have someone in that line able to do 2 jobs, it might lower some of the costs down, but still. Its not a cheap process in any way. For example, if the proposed gun is Emag based, is there enough noids? Can new noids be sourced? What about the sears? See what i mean...

3) clearity of project. What would you want? There are plenty of people that each would want an Xmag or an SFL, or something new; but who gets to decide? You need a head leader of the project to make the tough decissions, and majority rules does not work here.

4) where is the line drawn? Do people want a production gun or a base that people could customize? Or conversely, what parts would people consider keeping(angel detents, angel threaded feednecks) versus going totally new for just the sake of updating. This falls back to the project head...


I would love to see an Inception body or an updated Xmag or SFL, but its not going to happen. And i hate to crush people's dreams, but someone has to.

[SummaryJudgement]

http://www.committedpaintball.com/

My google-fu is strong tonight.

;)

Must be, I couldn't find that, just old posts on MCB and custom cockers.

I find it hilarious that the resurrection and Inception versions are priced what they are, and now these Twisters! "Closed-bolt accuracy" and "classic design" being thrown around left and right. A year ago the kiddies would have been calling cockers "old guns" or "outdated". Now mech cockers are going for $500-$1000, ha!

I was a cocker guy before I got into mags (of course this was 1997), and my collection is almost entirely mags and cockers. I think my Blazer, Viking, and B5 are the only non-mag/cocker markers I own.

I love it! Maybe mags will make an industry wide comeback as well 8D

Oh, and I have owned two Twisters and regret selling both of them...

[dodge3500]

Both sfl and twister sounding good so far for what is being offered but they ain't no mag:)

[going_home]

http://www.committedpaintball.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=F1

Anyone notice the release/unveil date lol ?

FULL MARKER UNVEIL - 2.22.2014


2014 Axe is about your best bet for a customizable marker right now, with all the bodies on wickedsports.com .


;)

[dodge3500]

No way I'm building an axe now or ever unless they being the whole empire kee company stops buying American paintball company's and shipping them overseas. They really irritated me when they bought out a paintball manufacturer and shipped it to like twian or something like that.70 something American jobs were lost but I am pro USA made anyways.:)

[ScottyBeans]

I agree that it'd be sweet and I'd be interested in a new custom mag if it was done right, like niche is doing things for cockers. Talking simple, mechanical, and custom. Would love to see a Luke/xmt collaboration, didn't they joke about this before?

I haven't been around long enough to experience the botched preorders here before but I always love it when someone has a dream and takes the initiative to make it happen. I would not be in if this was going to be a chore for the person running the show.

I also bought a landfall twister F5 haha.

[cougar20th]

We mag guys have had alot of new stuff over the last few years between Vd, Magnus, XMT, Luke. Cocker guys not so much.
The issue is with a complete gun at a 25 gun run you would be looking at a retail price somewhere around 2000-3000. If not more. Ive talked to some shops about doing something. Not many if any are going to spend that.

Cockers have seen a resurgance. Some like the sfl, twister are rereleases to older designs while others like Inception and Niche are pushing the boundaries.

Example my Niche Nemesis. I designed them and the other guys machined and built them.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac84/rschoi_75/paintball/DSC00735_zps8070bbb4.jpg

Niche Banshee. Another of my designs. Still being machined. Intergrating the Va and using ego feednecks. Along with a huge list of differances. Ther will be limited numbers of themed guns. Currently a diamond pattern, Hawaiian patern and the standard blank guns.
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/robertlane5/media/IMG_3855_zps36fe2e64.jpg.html
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/robertlane5/media/IMG_3858_zps57cfbb00.jpg.html

L.A. Hitman Banshee team gun. They'll be using Niche guns this year from what Im being told.
http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/robertlane5/media/SADFDDD_zps92c920e9.jpg.html

[keiko_819]

all I want is renie's unibody...

[dboggs79]

The other point that should be made is, the availability of aftermarket components still available . With pump kits and pneumatics stil widely available new, the cocker kits are an easier sale. Sadly mags don't really have that. Mostly because as we know, there wasn't really a need for aftermarket components . The factory components worked as well or better than anything that was produced by anyone else. As sad as it may be, I think its as good as it's gonna get for us here. Which leads me to thank XMT, Luke and Cougar and anyone I'm forgetting for their work in keeping us with the new stuff that is available to us.

[steve_81]

The Automag guys sure are a self defeating bunch. Whenever a new idea comes along all you hear is..."nope, it will never work." and "good luck with that." Can we have some positive attitudes for awhile? If Autococker enthusiast's can do it why can't we?...are we saying that they are better then us?

[cockerpunk]

This will not happen. I truly wish to be wrong on this, but after some talks with a small shop this weekend, it all but confirms that the odds are that you will be struck by lightning, while getting bitten by a shark, while sinking a hole in one.

1) pre-order history. It plain sucks on AO. I can not blame anyone, but the history is the history. It will take the right product, at the right time to get that magical number to push this through.

2) 50lbs of cash. That is basically what it would take for someone to come up with a design, cad it up, run prototypes to check tolerances and code, buy raw material, take it to the machinists and get something working. That isn't even taking into consideration the small stuff like screws, the valves, the parts that make up the guns. Each person involved needa to be payed for their time and running their machines. Even if you have someone in that line able to do 2 jobs, it might lower some of the costs down, but still. Its not a cheap process in any way. For example, if the proposed gun is Emag based, is there enough noids? Can new noids be sourced? What about the sears? See what i mean...

3) clearity of project. What would you want? There are plenty of people that each would want an Xmag or an SFL, or something new; but who gets to decide? You need a head leader of the project to make the tough decissions, and majority rules does not work here.

4) where is the line drawn? Do people want a production gun or a base that people could customize? Or conversely, what parts would people consider keeping(angel detents, angel threaded feednecks) versus going totally new for just the sake of updating. This falls back to the project head...


I would love to see an Inception body or an updated Xmag or SFL, but its not going to happen. And i hate to crush people's dreams, but someone has to.

it could happen if someone just wanted to do is a project and not make any money off it.

the issue is people's time is valuable. not just in terms of dollars, but family, friends, actually playing paintball etc etc. it has to be worthwhile for someone to take on the task, and that usually means $$$$. which, as pointed out, is really tight, and by no means guaranteed.

[ScottyBeans]

The issue is with a complete gun at a 25 gun run you would be looking at a retail price somewhere around 2000-3000. If not more. Ive talked to some shops about doing something. Not many if any are going to spend that.

I've always wondered about this. It seems like when new autocockers come out they come fully complete at around the $1000 price range (twister, nemesis, SFL in 2009, etc), which in my opinion is a reasonable price for a new, custom, high-end mech paintball gun made in a limited run.

But whenever I hear about a mag build in a similar vein, I'm always hearing "$2000 or more" which seems kind of silly. Is there a reason custom mags cost so much more to build in small runs?

[OPBN]

I've always wondered about this. It seems like when new autocockers come out they come fully complete at around the $1000 price range (twister, nemesis, SFL in 2009, etc), which in my opinion is a reasonable price for a new, custom, high-end mech paintball gun made in a limited run.

But whenever I hear about a mag build in a similar vein, I'm always hearing "$2000 or more" which seems kind of silly. Is there a reason custom mags cost so much more to build in small runs?

Agreed. If X valves are $250 from AGD and frames can be had for $200, Bodies and rails for $300-400, why can't an out the door, all new mechanical Mag be offered for $1k or less?

[knownothingmags]

Agreed. If X valves are $250 from AGD and frames can be had for $200, Bodies and rails for $300-400, why can't an out the door, all new mechanical Mag be offered for $1k or less?

I like your thought process and breakdown.

so all someone would need to do is throw up 25,000$ to get 25 made?
would we expect this to be a sole venture, or a collaboration of funds from multiple parties?

if so money shouldn't be a problem for a single person right?
or am I in lala land?

[going_home]

all I want is renie's unibody...

What will his wife think ?


:rolleyes:

[dodge3500]

Lol you guys got too much negative waves going on.:)

[Bunny]

Lol you guys got too much negative waves going on.:)

lol. There are alot of great points in this thread so far. I feel like Luke and XMT have been filling the AGD void for a while now and i'm happy with the way things have been going. They both know how to cater to this weirdo/bizarre automag market we have going on.

[vintage]

everyone start playing powerball(if you not already) and when one of us wins it money will not be a problem. i have a long list of mag things i want to do when i win all that money.:D

[Nobody]

it could happen if someone just wanted to do is a project and not make any money off it.

the issue is people's time is valuable. not just in terms of dollars, but family, friends, actually playing paintball etc etc. it has to be worthwhile for someone to take on the task, and that usually means $$$$. which, as pointed out, is really tight, and by no means guaranteed.

I would love for someone to prove me wrong and get this done. I know that even getting super small runs of certain ICD specific items costs an arm and a leg, and that was mostly from the people that had the cads. Starting fresh or relatively freah is an uphill battle. Whether or not it has been extensions of where the industry is going, hoseless guns for example, or just furthering what we already have, like new and improved rails and bodies.

[knownothingmags]

everyone start playing powerball(if you not already) and when one of us wins it money will not be a problem. i have a long list of mag things i want to do when i win all that money.:D

im sure there are people who are there already been there done that type of thing, or havnt even won the lottery just have the cash .
rich don't get rich by spending it. :P

[SN toter]

I'd love to see another custom unibody like that XMT shockwave - packaged with lukes mini-vert grip frame and a nice foregrip. Then users can drop in a valve and add a barrel - donesies.

Then have em all anodized to match.

Tell you what - I do anodizing, I'll offer to do the polishing and anodizing at half-off if someone gets this off the ground.

[WholemealDrop]

The thing with the cocker stuff is there are guys with the money and know-how to make this a business venture and not just a one off projects. Autocockers are back on the rise. Can't really pin it down to one thing but with Empire bringing back a modern cocker pump and mech with the Sniper and Ressurection platform definitely brought them into the light. Simon at Inception was doing production runs to lower the overall cost of each kit and Niche is a passionate group of guys with skills to make something they wanted and offered it up to a production run. Mag users are generally a smaller group. In my local area I think I've seen 1-2 guys have a mag at various fields but there will be 10+ guys running cockers either as pumps or mech with a few electros too.

I wish mags would make a come back too seeing as they are way easier to maintain than cockers. As OPBN stated, no real reason a new mech mag couldn't be made for under $1k and that is if you sourced each piece part by part. If someone made everything in house: valve, frame, body/rail, with a few off the shelf parts: feedneck, detents, misc hardware, I don't see why a production run couldn't be done. But ultimately it comes back to a business aspect as others have said: who is going to foot the bill while they wait for these to get sold?

FYI I just got into mags so not the most knowledgable about them or the community yet.

[steve_81]

I like your thought process and breakdown.

so all someone would need to do is throw up 25,000$ to get 25 made?
would we expect this to be a sole venture, or a collaboration of funds from multiple parties?


Why don't we do it the same way Dodge was attempting to sell their Dodge Dart?...break down the costs and pay for each individual step or process separately. That way you aren't looking at $25,000 as a whole but a bunch of smaller easily obtainable amounts? Break it down and create a timeline. People are more likely to help out when they see a smaller amount....just a thought. I would be willing to do a fundraiser outside of Automags.org in order to raise some revenue to get things rolling. So whose in? who wants to help create a check list/timeline for this project?

[dodge3500]

I'm hoping for a combined effort xmt/Luke mag ,that's two folks that turn out great products with no worries about getting what you pay for.:)

[OPBN]

Obviously this is all just tossing crap around as no one it seems is looking to step up and plunge into this, but I'll add a couple of thoughts.

While the idea of doing a part at a time sounds good, a lot of people were burnt by VD who did this exact thing. People who bought bodies were left without rails. People who bought bodies and rails were left without foregrips etc. It would be nice to see someone sell a complete limited run semi custom Mag that would need only a valve, barrel or something to complete it. Maybe like the Niche Cockers, giving the option to send in parts to get anodized with it so there is consistency. But I say that as I'm looking at my PP account and weeping a little right now.

[BigEvil]

There is a huge problem with AGD stuff that doesn't exist with cocker stuff - AGD parts were for the most part not designed with manufacturing in mind and thus the costs are exponentially higher. On top of that, the paintball market is not what it was 5-10 years ago. There is no market for $500 mag bodies anymore.

[cougar20th]

Ok guys heres the break down as I see it.

Rough numbers for a Emag
1) Unibody, something with the complexity of a shockwave (Make) $400
2) frame (Make, emag length) $300
3) Valve (from AGD) $250
4) Battery (from AGD) $89
5) PCB (Reflex Customs) $200
6) Trigger (Make) $45
7) Grips (Make) $35
8) Sear, Sear pin, Safety, selector, $55 +$7 +$7 +$15= $84
9) Battery pack (Make) $50??
10) Misc little things $20
11) Barrel (Buy) $60
12) feedneck $20??
12)Ano (Plan Black) $100

So a total of Approx $1600 before

13) Assembly? time = Money. It took 3 guys several days to fully assembly & test the 30 Niche Nemesis cockers.
14) Profit ?? No one works for free (Most of the time.)

Now the prices on some may be less but these are roughly what Ive been told by several non paintball machine shops for a run 25-50. Of course more means a slight quantity price break.

Now a Mech only Automag you could possibly drop about 5-600 off the cost.

The thing to remember is when say AGD or any big company does a run of parts its usually hundreds of parts. And if they own thier machines they can internally charge less.

[OPBN]

You lost me at Emag length. lol.

But in all seriousness, if going for an Electro, why not dump the antiquated and heavy Emag frame and go with something like the E90? Lighter, works just as well, and the body can still be non-Emag length. Heck, while at it, why not make it an EP mag with matching LPR foregrip?

[cougar20th]

You lost me at Emag length. lol.

But in all seriousness, if going for an Electro, why not dump the antiquated and heavy Emag frame and go with something like the E90? Lighter, works just as well, and the body can still be non-Emag length. Heck, while at it, why not make it an EP mag with matching LPR foregrip?

Emag length refers to a frame the length of a emag/uniframe style frame front to back. You have to start with more material, more machine time, etc.

I do agree the emag frame platform is antiquated. Its just what I could get numbers for quickly and that everyone knows. So I used it as a example

[cougar20th]

I want to make this clear. I am NOT singling anyone out. Ive been bombarded over the last year or two with people asking for me to design & have parts made for them. Wanting short timelines. Then when I give them the numbers they tell me I'm nuts.

Example:
I have quotes for my M86's out of 10 shops I contacted (other then the one I use now) the lowest quote (Below) was $321 PER for quantity 25 & $ 223 PER for quantity 100. The high quotes where closer to $500 PER for the same quantities. You don't even want to know what a machined prototype would cost. WITHOUT polish, dust or anodizing.

This is why I put up with the delays I have from my machinist. Because I can only have 2 of these 3 things, Good, Cheap, Fast. If I choose the wrong 2 then no one would by anything.

Also there are things I could do to the M86's to make them cheaper to produce. Like removing the internal undercuts, Flaten the gear of the frame so it doesnt have to be 3d milled. no slots in the trigger guard just holes for what is needed.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc395/Cougar20th/M86Quote1_zpsdc6dfcc5.png
Yes I removed all the suppler info and most of mine. No one needs any of that.

[ScottyBeans]

Thanks for the info, Cougar. The lesson here might be "If you want a fully custom mag, build it your own damn self"

Thankfully you, XMT, luke, and others have made it possible and easy to do that for those who want to.

Quick question on body costs for you (and Big E mentioned something about this too): Why do mag unibodies seem to cost way more than cocker body/block kits? That looks like where the biggest difference lies. Are they just way harder to machine or something?

[cougar20th]

I ussually wouldnt posted the quotes. But now people see the issues with custom stuff.

The internal milling difficulties with the automag probably equal out when you figure the second tube in a cocker. But a Mag Must have concentric internal. A cocker not so much. They can be off.

There is currently alot of New Old stock cocker bodies out there that can be had at low prices to start with and have the material for milling. Which means they are already cheaper then if you milled from a block. Nothing is out there like that for Automags that I know of.

Nemesis. All I can say about that one is the buyers got a screaming deal.

[djinnform]

Also. AGD is sold-out of RT on\offs. So that's it.

[dodge3500]

I have in my custom ripper mag excluding my x-valve (because I ended up with nothing in it) is 1055$ including a 2 color splash anno.:)
I will have to add a little more for the shipping back once the anno is completed.

[BigEvil]

Also. AGD is sold-out of RT on\offs. So that's it.

Im sure there will be more. They can't build guns without them.

[going_home]

Also. AGD is sold-out of RT on\offs. So that's it.

If I were a betting man I'd wager tuna has plenty.


;)

[SN toter]

Okay so the only way I'd see it happening here would be something like this:

We combine AO's resources for it. Like, say, we pair mini verts from Luke, a body from XMT(I see he has several body pre-orders going right now - maybe a slight mod to an existing design like the shockwave - because unibody - to differentiate it for this project). CCM sells raw feednecks, Inception sells raw stella barrels - basically we'd need to get someone like XMT on board and then we'd need a project manager to handle the logistics and costing. Then each marker can be anodized to match. Basically be a complete marker less the valve. I dunno, just musing - but I'd bet for around the $800 mark we could do everything for an AO branded pnuemag (less valve).

[lvl10LastBoss]

I do love the idea and I support it 100% but FFS i can't afford a freaking xmag lol. they cost pretty much near a down payment for a new car.

[dboggs79]

Okay so the only way I'd see it happening here would be something like this:

We combine AO's resources for it. Like, say, we pair mini verts from Luke, a body from XMT(I see he has several body pre-orders going right now - maybe a slight mod to an existing design like the shockwave - because unibody - to differentiate it for this project). CCM sells raw feednecks, Inception sells raw stella barrels - basically we'd need to get someone like XMT on board and then we'd need a project manager to handle the logistics and costing. Then each marker can be anodized to match. Basically be a complete marker less the valve. I dunno, just musing.

Everything you listed is already available.

[Nobody]

Okay so the only way I'd see it happening here would be something like this:

We combine AO's resources for it. Like, say, we pair mini verts from Luke, a body from XMT(I see he has several body pre-orders going right now - maybe a slight mod to an existing design like the shockwave - because unibody - to differentiate it for this project). CCM sells raw feednecks, Inception sells raw stella barrels - basically we'd need to get someone like XMT on board and then we'd need a project manager to handle the logistics and costing. Then each marker can be anodized to match. Basically be a complete marker less the valve. I dunno, just musing.

And unfortunately here is where people start to say no. I never held or fired a Luke's minivert frame. I would not like to buy into it, with parts i do not know. Then you might get those people that like single trigger frames, for instance. I do not like CCM feednecks and offer adapters to use Empire Universal(or Axe pro) feednecks. And in reality, offering a barrel is a non starter, because i personally will already have one by May & even if i don't, i may prefer my own existing barrels just because of familiarity not need the bores chosen by majority.

For a production run, you need to start at the top and work down. You need to have the project leader choosen first. Then he/she might look at the available resources and then either choose what the majority would want or just pick what would be used. I see no other way. You will always have people who won't be happy with it. You can't please everyone. Finding annodizers, getting machine shops on board are easy; getting 25 or so people to agree on a body, feedneck, frame and valve is near impossible.

[SN toter]

And unfortunately here is where people start to say no. I never held or fired a Luke's minivert frame. I would not like to buy into it, with parts i do not know. Then you might get those people that like single trigger frames, for instance. I do not like CCM feednecks and offer adapters to use Empire Universal(or Axe pro) feednecks. And in reality, offering a barrel is a non starter, because i personally will already have one by May & even if i don't, i may prefer my own existing barrels just because of familiarity not need the bores chosen by majority.

For a production run, you need to start at the top and work down. You need to have the project leader choosen first. Then he/she might look at the available resources and then either choose what the majority would want or just pick what would be used. I see no other way. You will always have people who won't be happy with it. You can't please everyone. Finding annodizers, getting machine shops on board are easy; getting 25 or so people to agree on a body, feedneck, frame and valve is near impossible.

Oh I agree, I was just brainstorming out loud.

[luke]

Guys, bodies are my next big project. I have ideas of the route I want to go but nothing is set in stone until the chips start flying.
I'm prototyping my current project right now, when it's done I will start the body project. I hope to start the design phase within about a month.
I have a lot of concerns about the project and whether or not the support will be there when the time comes. People generally don't want something new, they want repeats of old parts, SFL, xmag or a emag, karta mag, aluminum minimag and RT bodies or the ripper style bodies, none of which is a direction I plan on going.

Once I have my slug designs down (Not AGD slugs, I'm doing something different) there will be many possibilities. This will happen and much sooner than later. :)

[ScottyBeans]

Guys, bodies are my next big project. I have ideas of the route I want to go but nothing is set in stone until the chips start flying.
I'm prototyping my current project right now, when it's done I will start the body project. I hope to start the design phase within about a month.
I have a lot of concerns about the project and whether or not the support will be there when the time comes. People generally don't want something new, they want repeats of old parts, SFL, xmag or a emag, karta mag, aluminum minimag and RT bodies or the ripper style bodies, none of which is a direction I plan on going.

Once I have my slug designs down (Not AGD slugs, I'm doing something different) there will be many possibilities. This will happen and much sooner than later. :)

Well that is incredibly exciting! Just remember, Karta bodies were new once upon a time too. They are just an attractive design. If you make something really freakin cool, there will be demand :)

[luke]

I missed this first thing this morning...
You pretty much nailed this, most prices are pretty close. Some are a little high but some are a little low but the final number was all but exactly of what I was thinking. ;)
Not to mention #13 & 14 which most people don't consider.

I would also add #15: Shipping.
It sounds silly but most would be surprised how many hours it takes to pack and set up shipping labels 25 or 30 orders.


Ok guys heres the break down as I see it.

Rough numbers for a Emag
1) Unibody, something with the complexity of a shockwave (Make) $400
2) frame (Make, emag length) $300
3) Valve (from AGD) $250
4) Battery (from AGD) $89
5) PCB (Reflex Customs) $200
6) Trigger (Make) $45
7) Grips (Make) $35
8) Sear, Sear pin, Safety, selector, $55 +$7 +$7 +$15= $84
9) Battery pack (Make) $50??
10) Misc little things $20
11) Barrel (Buy) $60
12) feedneck $20??
12)Ano (Plan Black) $100

So a total of Approx $1600 before

13) Assembly? time = Money. It took 3 guys several days to fully assembly & test the 30 Niche Nemesis cockers.
14) Profit ?? No one works for free (Most of the time.)

Now the prices on some may be less but these are roughly what Ive been told by several non paintball machine shops for a run 25-50. Of course more means a slight quantity price break.

Now a Mech only Automag you could possibly drop about 5-600 off the cost.






The thing to remember is when say AGD or any big company does a run of parts its usually hundreds of parts.

I ask Tom about this, he said they generally ordered 1000 parts at a time. That put's stuff in perspective. ;)


And if they own thier machines they can internally charge less.

That's not exactly true, but it does allow flexibly in many different areas that wouldn't necessary be possible otherwise. I won't go into details of all the ins and out's but the shop has to make a set wage just to pay for itself. Otherwise there would never be a profit before replacement of machines were necessary, not to mention the MANY consumables a shop goes through, it isn't cheap. There's a wage that a cnc machine HAS to make just to pay for itself before it dies, there's really no flexibility there unless you're only in it for the fun of it. It's much too expensive for me to do as a hobby. :)

Just because you own the machines (shop) and are doing all the work, that does not automatically mean you will accept less. If I'm doing design work I expect to get paid design wages. If I'm programing I expect to be paid accordingly. If I'm running the machine, same difference, I want a fair wage for my time. The machines must earn their wage to pay for everything associated in keeping them up and running and paying for themselves.

[dodge3500]

Sweet:) new stuff from Luke:)

[luke]

Truth is a complete Luke's Customs marker has been in works for several years now, it just takes time. I've had to learn more than one trade from scratch just to get to this point, still lots to learn but a complete marker is now doable. I'm not setup to do barrels but there are plenty of choices already out there, not to mention most of us already have our favorites.

[dodge3500]

Truth is a complete Luke's Customs marker has been in works for several years now, it just takes time. I've had to learn more than one trade from scratch just to get to this point, still lots to learn but a complete marker is now doable. I'm not setup to do barrels but there are plenty of choices already out there, not to mention most of us already have our favorites.

Well,I'm in:)
Sounds like a plan.

[AGD]

Quantity is exactly the problem. Once the paintball community started fracturing on what they thought a paintball marker should be, it became impossible to run enough parts to make things economically. 1000 pcs is where you START to approach the better price for the product. Paintball is not big enough to pull those numbers any more as evidenced by what is happening to DYE.

AGD

[SummaryJudgement]

B
Quantity is exactly the problem. Once the paintball community started fracturing on what they thought a paintball marker should be, it became impossible to run enough parts to make things economically. 1000 pcs is where you START to approach the better price for the product. Paintball is not big enough to pull those numbers any more as evidenced by what is happening to DYE.

AGD

Thus spoketh The Lord...

[BigEvil]

Quantity is exactly the problem. Once the paintball community started fracturing on what they thought a paintball marker should be, it became impossible to run enough parts to make things economically. 1000 pcs is where you START to approach the better price for the product. Paintball is not big enough to pull those numbers any more as evidenced by what is happening to DYE.

AGD

Also the market is way different. The days of the $1000 marker as the big sellers are over.

[dodge3500]

Also the market is way different. The days of the $1000 marker as the big sellers are over.

? Huh?
I see tons of 1000$ plus markers on the fields.I'll see as many new egos ,vanquish, dye and bob long as I do minis and tippmans.I must have misunderstood your comment do you mean the 1000$ gun as the lower end now?

[steve_81]

I hardly see any new high end markers on the field anymore. Nobody around here buys brand new high ends anymore. The used market is going pretty strong with 2011 Ego's and Luxe's. I've also started seeing a ton of players dumping Empire Vanquishes like crazy as well.

[cougar20th]

I would also add #15: Shipping.
It sounds silly but most would be surprised how many hours it takes to pack and set up shipping labels 25 or 30 orders.



That is a very good one. That and hardware are the things that I missed planning for on my first run of frames.

On a semi related note, do you know how pissed people in line behind you get once they realize you have 30 packages to ship? One of these days I gotta do everything online.

[luke]

That is a very good one. That and hardware are the things that I missed planning for on my first run of frames.

On a semi related note, do you know how pissed people in line behind you get once they realize you have 30 packages to ship? One of these days I gotta do everything online.

Buying online is a ton easier your crazy not to. ;)

[Nobody]

? Huh?
I see tons of 1000$ plus markers on the fields.I'll see as many new egos ,vanquish, dye and bob long as I do minis and tippmans.I must have misunderstood your comment do you mean the 1000$ gun as the lower end now?

Are those people the original owners, or people that might have found it second hand or even have traded guns and maybe cash? Hell, i have a 99 Eclipse LED Angel, which was a $1500 gun, back in the day or even my Ego6. Does that count?

But BigEvil's state is more that you will sell more $400 dollar guns than guns that cost 4 figures. Compare 10 years ago to today. Back then you had yearly gun releases, now their are spread out between the line of guns. Planet Eclipse, MacDev, even Empire.

[Nobody]

I hardly see any new high end markers on the field anymore. Nobody around here buys brand new high ends anymore. The used market is going pretty strong with 2011 Ego's and Luxe's. I've also started seeing a ton of players dumping Empire Vanquishes like crazy as well.

That is because the Vanquish is a rebadged SFT/NXT Shocker. It doesn't to my knowledge even shoot any better than them, especially in cold weather.

[OneSelfLost]

I'd love to see another body come out with interchangeable breaches like the Xmag or the newer micro.

[keiko_819]

A unibody am/mm length with an optional adapter to add emag lowers like the ptp body? And then everyone can choose their own everything else

[dodge3500]

Are those people the original owners, or people that might have found it second hand or even have traded guns and maybe cash? Hell, i have a 99 Eclipse LED Angel, which was a $1500 gun, back in the day or even my Ego6. Does that count?

But BigEvil's state is more that you will sell more $400 dollar guns than guns that cost 4 figures. Compare 10 years ago to today. Back then you had yearly gun releases, now their are spread out between the line of guns. Planet Eclipse, MacDev, even Empire.

I never thought to ask if they purchased their lv1,geo3.5 or vanquish new but somebody had to.I can believe the used market is strong for sure just look at PbNation a crap ton of sweet used electro's there.

[1985phenom]

I realize this is digressing a bit but I have followed the used market on FB in the hopes if scoring a discarded mag (scored a classic valve pneu for 125$ shipped)...

...people are already selling their Mini GS's. People buy and sell new guns too fast at a loss.

[BigEvil]

The last gun I paid over $1k for was my Xmag and that was new from AGD in 2003. I have a bunch of $1k+ guns, I NEVER paid anywhere near retail for them. It's insane when you can buy the same gun used a year later for 1/2 the price. Some people do buy them new, but more people buy lower to mid end guns new. The Ion changed the world boys.

[OPBN]

Since we're all clarifying...lol. I would like to clarify that I was talking about a valveless marker for under $1k. Buyers would supply bottomlines, feednecks, fittings, etc. Essentially I am talking about a custom designed package that would include a body/rail/unibody, frame, and foregrip (maybe a barrel) All designed together and limited in production to say 25 markers and then the molds are broken. The buyers supply whatever else they want to send off for anodizing match.

[SN toter]

Well, Luke - you've got me excited. Looking fw to seeing what you have up your sleeve.

[Laku]

Guys, bodies are my next big project. I have ideas of the route I want to go but nothing is set in stone until the chips start flying. I'm prototyping my current project right now, when it's done I will start the body project. I hope to start the design phase within about a month. I have a lot of concerns about the project and whether or not the support will be there when the time comes. People generally don't want something new, they want repeats of old parts, SFL, xmag or a emag, karta mag, aluminum minimag and RT bodies or the ripper style bodies, none of which is a direction I plan on going. Once I have my slug designs down (Not AGD slugs, I'm doing something different) there will be many possibilities. This will happen and much sooner than later. :)

Sounds good. I'm actually more interested of new types of bodies, depending of course wether I like the aesthetics or not. :)

[knownothingmags]

I realize this is digressing a bit but I have followed the used market on FB in the hopes if scoring a discarded mag (scored a classic valve pneu for 125$ shipped)...

...people are already selling their Mini GS's. People buy and sell new guns too fast at a loss.

well when its mom and dads money :rolleyes:

[WholemealDrop]

a grand is quite a chunk of money for an incomplete marker. End user would end up dropping a couple hundred more to finish it off.

[vintage]

$1000.00 is a chunk regardless of what your buying. for that much i can buy 2 nice little Turkish made o/u shotguns from Academy and have some left over for ammo. i just bought a new Rock Island 1911 in 38 super for $355.00. as much as i would like to see a new mag i can't justify spending any where near that much on a new paintball gun.

as you can see paintball is not my only hobby.

[Laku]

as much as i would like to see a new mag i can't justify spending any where near that much on a new paintball gun.

But maybe it is also a beautiful piece of metal art. 1000$ wouldn't be that much from art. ;)

[WholemealDrop]

Well for $1k I'd expect a complete and usable product. Yes there are other things that you can get of quality make for less. For example your 1911 for $355, I suspect it shoots well, had at least 1 mag, complete to the point of usability. What if you had to spend another $100-200 in order to use that 1911 (not including ammo), would you still want to buy it? When you end up spending that much money I'd expect it to be a complete usable product. Little things that boil down to personal preference such as barrel choice or type of ASA/rail combo I could let slide seeing as everyone has their own opinion and tastes in that regard. But for the most part I shouldn't have to put in almost half the value of the base product in order to use it. And to counteract an opposing argument: I should have to cannibalize another marker to make another work or use parts you already have since not everyone keeps a spare X-Valve laying around just in case.

Also I'm not a machinist or have the knowledge how that business works but as others have stated, still confused as to why cocker parts (bodies, frames, blocks, etc.) are so much cheaper in comparison to mag parts. Some did state that mag bodies need a concentric bore through them where cockers don't but that didn't make sense to me either since the top tube needs to be straight for the bolt and at least half the bottom tube needs to be straight to align the hammer and valve. $200+ mag frames without grips or ano stun me when cocker frames with internals and grips top out at $200! I understand that we can't expect someone to re-engineer the valve system to produce them when AGD already does a good job at that but I don't see how we couldn't part a custom gun build with AGD to supply the valve system. They should like it for increased exposure for mags which could lead to them more sales.

[Nobody]

Well for $1k I'd expect a complete and usable product. Yes there are other things that you can get of quality make for less. For example your 1911 for $355, I suspect it shoots well, had at least 1 mag, complete to the point of usability. What if you had to spend another $100-200 in order to use that 1911 (not including ammo), would you still want to buy it? When you end up spending that much money I'd expect it to be a complete usable product. Little things that boil down to personal preference such as barrel choice or type of ASA/rail combo I could let slide seeing as everyone has their own opinion and tastes in that regard. But for the most part I shouldn't have to put in almost half the value of the base product in order to use it. And to counteract an opposing argument: I should have to cannibalize another marker to make another work or use parts you already have since not everyone keeps a spare X-Valve laying around just in case.

Also I'm not a machinist or have the knowledge how that business works but as others have stated, still confused as to why cocker parts (bodies, frames, blocks, etc.) are so much cheaper in comparison to mag parts. Some did state that mag bodies need a concentric bore through them where cockers don't but that didn't make sense to me either since the top tube needs to be straight for the bolt and at least half the bottom tube needs to be straight to align the hammer and valve. $200+ mag frames without grips or ano stun me when cocker frames with internals and grips top out at $200! I understand that we can't expect someone to re-engineer the valve system to produce them when AGD already does a good job at that but I don't see how we couldn't part a custom gun build with AGD to supply the valve system. They should like it for increased exposure for mags which could lead to them more sales.

These are what i think those reasons are:
1) you can get predrilled extrusions.
2) the tolerances for a mag is much higher than a cocker
3) there are a hell of a lot more aftermarket parts for cockers than mags. Whether they are sears, or valves or hammers or bolts. You can build a cocker strickly through used/secondary sources. You can't with mags.
4) the ancillaries that most designers need to fit into frame takes time and effort. Because people will put in pneumatics, you then have to incorporate the brackets and mounting points. Cocker frames do not have this.
5) the value of parts. The cost of a new Xvalve from AGD is about $250. You can get new valve train(valve and hammer set), HPR, frame(complete) & bolt.
6) cause quality costs more...

[cougar20th]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

[dodge3500]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

I've been laughing so hard I gave myself a headache.:)
Great analogy.

[cockerpunk]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

ill take several of both please!

[ScottyBeans]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

.....nice

[Nobody]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

I am touched...
:youtheman:

[zondo]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

I think every man now completely understands the situation. Truly quotable for any argument. Is there a bumper sticker in the future? I foresee memes for this.

[p8ntbal4me]

Im going to chime in here and offer my 2 cents:

If you do this project,.... an electronic one,.... you need to design a new board.

By that: I mean you need to scrap the design from AGD and do something new, updated, and cost effective.

--------------------------

I am NOT saying it needs to be OLED or anything. But thing it through,.................... if you are designing a new product, you dont put old product inside to run it.

My software AND circuit are backwards compatable. Meaning it will fire any solenoid from 5-30 volts.

My suggestion for the project leader is to get rid of the AGD solenoid and board. Go with something new.

If not,..... making a new batch of Reflex Paintball Customs E/X-Mag boards to support this design would be an up front cost of $4-5k

The lead time would be short though,... measured in months,.. not years

[OPBN]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the component cost per board?

[barkingspider]

Just more of FYI if some didn't' catch the thread but there was talk with Luke about making a economical grip frame that accepts a cheap and easy to find supply of boards from Spyder. He posed three options from very cost effect to more complex, which also would reflect on the price of a drop in design. If people are wanting something like that, which I am for one, then think about this as a component to the puzzle into someones desires/build

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?267899-Spydermag-Conversion-Frame

[p8ntbal4me]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the component cost per board?



What exactly are you looking for? all the components price per a single board? or the price of all 100 done with the components?

The voltage regulator was $7+
The MOSFET was $10

[p8ntbal4me]

Just more of FYI if some didn't' catch the thread but there was talk with Luke about making a economical grip frame that accepts a cheap and easy to find supply of boards from Spyder. He posed three options from very cost effect to more complex, which also would reflect on the price of a drop in design. If people are wanting something like that, which I am for one, then think about this as a component to the puzzle into someones desires/build

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?267899-Spydermag-Conversion-Frame

Well that right there is something that can be done.

You COULD get a company to sell you an existing product at a reduced rate already in their surplus,.. which would carry some advantages to replacements.

The down side to that is MOST of the guys that make the boards you will look into:
Wont budge in price
Wont make custom ANYTHING (software, hardware)
Wont make any replacements for the boards you buy, for future replacements (once they sell the stock out, thats it. they make no more of them)

So there is somethings to think about......

Cost to design a new board from scratch is costly. Unless you already have a circuit that works for your needs. I have such a circuit,.. so my cost to reproduce the same concept in a new shape isnt hard.

Like I said,.... there are ups and downs to all designs.

My professional opinion for the electronics, would be to start a new base board and build a new finished product.

[OPBN]

What exactly are you looking for? all the components price per a single board? or the price of all 100 done with the components?

Was kinda curious what sorts of components were on the board and pricing paid. I'm a components broker so curious if some costs could be had by sourcing the components outside franchise distribution.

[p8ntbal4me]

Was kinda curious what sorts of components were on the board and pricing paid. I'm a components broker so curious if some costs could be had by sourcing the components outside franchise distribution.

I dont want to derail the topic: we can talk in PM

Answer to your question is: sourced from Mouser and Digi-Key because american board house i used has 100% part integration with their machines. The LEDs were expensive per unit even as a bulk buy (had to buy more than needed), the power and eye buttons were expensive, as were the MOSFETS, regulator, diodes, extra small capacotors,.... the key parts to make the gun work with the solenoid and voltage drove the cost up very quick! the resistors and such were cheap (again, have to buy more than you need)

The solenoids were very expensive :-(

It was almost the same to buy from distribution than it was to buy direct. I have accounts with line of credit and freight in Digi-key and Mouser,.. so it was the obvious choice.

Off 100 boards being sold I will have made less than $500. Thats before I paid myself for the hours into making all the harnesses, tools purchased,.....

When you take on a project like what is described in this thread,..... it can reach $10,000 before you make proto-type function before production.

[Xmagterror]

Lets see if I can explain this on a way I think Nobody would do. But try not to get myself banned.

Automag: Think of a 18 year old Virgin, Nice, tight & everything were it belongs place, works perfectly with some lube.
Autococker: Think of a career Porn star after her 10th 100 person gangbang, Loose, sloppy everything out of place, will work good with or without lube for awhile.

That is how the tolerances between the 2 compare. A autococker by default has way more allowance for tolerances to be off and still work. This is because everything fits losesly and seperatly. A mag valve on the other hand has everything toleranced tight enough that the bodys have to match.

word.
Interesting thread. You guys would be surprised how much time it takes to machine a new body or major mag component from start to finish. with only 25 pieces to be made, its going to be very expensive. and then factor in the design time.

xmags sold for around 1300 and that was around 13 years ago...and TK made around a thousand of them.

[cockerpunk]

I never thought to ask if they purchased their lv1,geo3.5 or vanquish new but somebody had to.I can believe the used market is strong for sure just look at PbNation a crap ton of sweet used electro's there.

FYI, most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends. also have to take into account modern "sponsorship" which means at lease several hundred of those guns are going at cost, or slightly above, rather than full retail.

[p8ntbal4me]

FYI, most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends. also have to take into account modern "sponsorship" which means at lease several hundred of those guns are going at cost, or slightly above, rather than full retail.

Yeah I don't believe that for a minute.
A "sponsored" gun for a team is nothing more than a milling change, or some cosmetic add on piece.

SP shockers for teams
impulses for teams
DM3 for teams
Angel LCD for teams.....


The list is a very long and documented one. These little changed PE makes from gun to gun isn't a change they do SPECIFICALLY for a team and a team alone (in talking like... A hard core design change that makes the gun function like no other and it's parts are one of a kind and not usable but in that single one gun)

Take the stock angel LCD: all the adrenaline guns were milled down versions of the OEM. Nothing more. Or take those AGD/PTP Micro EMAGs for the Jacksonville boys..... The battery was the major change. The rest of the gun was an OEM package.

I have not seen a custom built gun made for a team yet that was so specific, any other OEM line gun parts wouldn't work with it.

You might be correct about the price of the gun toward the team from the manufacturer,....

FYI: someone mentioned the number of AGD EMAGs made: it's 1400
Have that saved in an email from TK

[cockerpunk]

Yeah I don't believe that for a minute.
A "sponsored" gun for a team is nothing more than a milling change, or some cosmetic add on piece.

SP shockers for teams
impulses for teams
DM3 for teams
Angel LCD for teams.....


The list is a very long and documented one. These little changed PE makes from gun to gun isn't a change they do SPECIFICALLY for a team and a team alone (in talking like... A hard core design change that makes the gun function like no other and it's parts are one of a kind and not usable but in that single one gun)

Take the stock angel LCD: all the adrenaline guns were milled down versions of the OEM. Nothing more. Or take those AGD/PTP Micro EMAGs for the Jacksonville boys..... The battery was the major change. The rest of the gun was an OEM package.

I have not seen a custom built gun made for a team yet that was so specific, any other OEM line gun parts wouldn't work with it.

You might be correct about the price of the gun toward the team from the manufacturer,....

FYI: someone mentioned the number of AGD EMAGs made: it's 1400
Have that saved in an email from TK

i don't think you understood my response.

my point was that modern sponsorship of teams is done as a discounted deal on merch. so teams that are sponsored can buy stuff from there sponsor at at a discount sure, but somewhere usually between cost and retail, and then turn around and sell it. this means that a fairly large number of that already small number of guns being made each design cycle, is being sold into the public at below retail prices.

this is leading reason why resale on guns drops so fast. because within minutes of someone getting there hands on it, they have to cash it out for there sponsorship, and so they sell at a discount.

so my point is, that no, someone did not have to buy it new at retail price for it to be out and about in the world. a large fraction, are not ever bought for retail price.

[luke]

most production guns batches are fairly small ~1000-3000 even for the most popular high ends.

Were exactly does this number come from?

[cockerpunk]

Were exactly does this number come from?

if i told you i'd have to kill you :shooting:

:)

[luke]

So you're just making it up...

[cockerpunk]

So you're just making it up...

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

[OPBN]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.
In other words... yes he's making it up.

[BigEvil]

I believe TK said that there were about a total of 1000 Emags in all, and only a few hundred Xmags.

[luke]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

I've been making parts for the AM community long enough to know exactly what to expect out of a project like this, but thank you for your wisdom.

[p8ntbal4me]

I believe TK said that there were about a total of 1000 Emags in all, and only a few hundred Xmags.

"There are 1,400 or so E-Mags." - TK

THIS PART I WILL CHECK MY EMAILS FOR: "Of those, only so many were made into xmags"

[p8ntbal4me]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

I looking at this and how players today are spun up and sold on what the next big thing is from a manufacturer,... And I just don't see it.

Before you comment,... Let me put this out there so I make my view clear on my end: gun weight. Literally the number one seller of all "high end guns" (besides a ROF that no field with insurance will honor) is weight.
Since WDP,... They harped on the weight reduction of "this years model compared to last years". Or a version number. Look at what they measure it in now.... Grams. Friggen grams! Not one of you or any other paintball player can tell me the difference in a single unit of grams. NO ONE! Yet companies like PE spin this up as a massive weight reduction.

I will put the shoe on my foot:
I measure my red tail hawk in grams. Why? Because it's the most accurate.
I can not ever tell without weighing him, if he's light of heavy after 24 hours. No clue.... So I have to weigh him. His flight weight range is anything from 830-880. Anything around 930 and I risk the loss of him taking off.

I pick this bird up twice a day, and he's on my hand for 3 hours every day. I still can not tell.

My point: "high end" is what you the consumer say it is. But in reality, it's what I see carrying the heaviest price tag since WDP released the angel speed.

My thought is that the price tag of whatever gun you make,... Won't matter as much as the other stupid factors shoved out by PE and DYE now. If you make a 200gram AGD mag,.... They still won't buy it. Because the last thing that players are hung up on now is "brand whoring".

If it's not a PE semi or a CCM pump,.... It's just not the best.

Am I saying the guns aren't nice? No,... Of course not. Each comaint makes nice stuff for sure. But a consumer like me will never bend to drop $1000 more for a gun that I know can be out performed by a gun made 10 years ago. And this is where you decide the market (Luke and cocker punk): guys like me will not buy a $1600-2000 redesigned mag unless it has so much innovation into it,... That it's worth more than my mortgage payment. And the second group.... They will never buy a $1600-2000 because they have a pussy in place of their gun hand instead of growing a pair and dealing with a heavy gun that "always shoots straight".

Looking at the market trend for the last 15 years,.... That should be spot on.

*****. And no offence! I get what is trying to be done here,... And I love innovation. However my opinion from one small niche in this industry is: If your going main stream to compete with a market value compared to others on the marker,..... The marker must be on the level to compete.

Other wise,... Keep the run sub 50,... And do it in pieces.

[Nobody]

if your going into the gun making business, you should probably research the market a bit more.

take the hint, the Xmag, they made 1,400 of ... in the height of the paintball marketplace, and when folks didn't have problem dropping 1.5-2k on custom cockers and mags. and there wasn't a plethora of used guns at low prices, and mid level guns that are 99% as capable ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what the high end market place looks like today in comparison.

That may be true to the passing player who wants to try something new, try something different, to buy the flavor of the month cause its the cool gun and a status symbol to own the firsts of a certain gun. Now you have to literally snipe the market place, like what Niche did with the Nemesis cockers.

There is always money out there, its a matter of prying it away from the people with enough marketing, lead time and a good enough built product t9 make it happen. If there is a will then there is a way.

Yes, gone are the days of people having the disposable income. Yet, how many Kryptonite Axe bodies have been sold? How many FLE or Ripper bodies have been sold? Its not a matter having a product, its a matter of having the RIGHT PRODUCT at the RIGHT TIME.

[chi town saint]

By the way I don't know if someone posted this or not but there is no more runs of the sfl since 09. Unless I miss something and didn't see it posted anywhere.

[cougar20th]

Things definitely aren't like they used to be when I started playing when gun designs ran a 2-3 (or more) year production cycle before changing. Yea there may have been small tweaks.
Now guns change every year or atleast the big companies what to you believe that.
The old days there were companies supplying mostly parts. (KAPP, Taso, 32 Degrees) you dont see that anymore due to the guns changing far to quickly to make it worth investing the time & money onto making parts. There are of course some exceptions.

Maybe Im just showing my age but I do long for things to be the way they used to be. But I know that will never happen. Paintball is and always will be evolving as a business.
I think that is why many here are drawn to automags & autocockers. They are modular. You can change them. You can modify them, You can work on them. They typically dont have electronics (some do).

But Mags and cockers are a very niche market to be making parts for. Its really easy to saturate the market with parts as there isn't a huge market base to sell to. You also need to come up with innovative and interesting parts of the highest quality. The good thing is with good communication, good track record both the automag community and the autococker community can be patient. Without good communication they will lynch you as faster then you can imagine.

[ScottyBeans]

But Mags and cockers are a very niche market to be making parts for. Its really easy to saturate the market with parts as there isn't a huge market base to sell to.

So you are saying.....we need to convince more rec ballers to go out there and play with their cockers and mags? :)

Hell, I'm in for that

[captian pinky]

So you are saying.....we need to convince more rec ballers to go out there and play with their cockers and mags? :)

Hell, I'm in for that

we are doing exactly that for a small charity event that is local. mech and pump only hopperball game. once the details are ironed out ill be posting on the event section.

[zondo]

But Mags and cockers are a very niche market to be making parts for. Its really easy to saturate the market with parts as there isn't a huge market base to sell to. You also need to come up with innovative and interesting parts of the highest quality. The good thing is with good communication, good track record both the automag community and the autococker community can be patient. Without good communication they will lynch you as faster then you can imagine.

I see what you did there... ;)

[Dayspring]

So...

Now that I've cleaned out the internet toughguy act stuff, we can get this thread back on track.


Doug & Gordon - I don't care who starts it, I don't care if it's in "self defense" or part of "vigorous debate", if a thread gets off track like this AGAIN (much like the last couple times) BOTH of you get a temp ban. You are now your brother's keepers.

If it steps over the line of civility again, both of you go.

[Nobody]

So...

Now that I've cleaned out the internet toughguy act stuff, we can get this thread back on track.


Doug & Gordon - I don't care who starts it, I don't care if it's in "self defense" or part of "vigorous debate", if a thread gets off track like this AGAIN (much like the last couple times) BOTH of you get a temp ban. You are now your brother's keepers.

If it steps over the line of civility again, both of you go.

You're no fun anymore.
:tard:
:vomit:
:hater:
Take your pick...

[Dayspring]

You're no fun anymore.
:tard:
:vomit:
:hater:
Take your pick...



Somebody's gotta keep the peace between you two knuckleheads.

[BigEvil]

Somebody's gotta keep the peace between you two knuckleheads.

Sometimes it's best to let people fight it out and see who the last one is standing. :D

[luke]

Especially if it ends in a fist fight!

[cockerpunk]

So...

Now that I've cleaned out the internet toughguy act stuff, we can get this thread back on track.


Doug & Gordon - I don't care who starts it, I don't care if it's in "self defense" or part of "vigorous debate", if a thread gets off track like this AGAIN (much like the last couple times) BOTH of you get a temp ban. You are now your brother's keepers.

If it steps over the line of civility again, both of you go.

as we have discussed, i have never stepped over the line of civility in any of these conversations, and never will. i cannot be blamed for someone else's posts, i can only control my own. which, even according to your own messages with me, have never crossed that line. attempting to blame us both equally in convenient, sure, but totally false. nothing i have posted that lead to nobody, or anyone else's reactions train wrecking a thread, was any more than common sense or common understanding of basic paintball design.

i cannot be blamed for someone insulting me because they do not understand the basics of what they are arguing about.

also, as a simple act of courtesy, i would prefer you do not delete threads/posts containing our arguments. they provide simply the best reference material for future arguments with these folks, and frankly, allow nobody to claim different things about the past than what actually happened, in order to further troll. as he did and i had to correct him multiple times in this exact thread, such as when he claimed i burst in late in the thread with a totally new topic ... no, i didn't. and i'd prefer if you allowed the record to be publicly available, so that i can quickly and easily disprove his claims.

[Dayspring]

as we have discussed, i have never stepped over the line of civility in any of these conversations, and never will. i cannot be blamed for someone else's posts, i can only control my own. which, even according to your own messages with me, have never crossed that line. attempting to blame us both equally in convenient, sure, but totally false. nothing i have posted that lead to nobody, or anyone else's reactions train wrecking a thread, was any more than common sense or common understanding of basic paintball design.

i cannot be blamed for someone insulting me because they do not understand the basics of what they are arguing about.

also, as a simple act of courtesy, i would prefer you do not delete threads/posts containing our arguments. they provide simply the best reference material for future arguments with these folks, and frankly, allow nobody to claim different things about the past than what actually happened, in order to further troll. as he did and i had to correct him multiple times in this exact thread, such as when he claimed i burst in late in the thread with a totally new topic ... no, i didn't. and i'd prefer if you allowed the record to be publicly available, so that i can quickly and easily disprove his claims.



You've got the terms - either of you step out of line in a thread together, you both get a vacation. Maybe then the two of you can figure out how to coexist.

And no - I will not keep bickering and childish arguing in a thread. You guys want to hash stuff out, do it privately.

The whole "he's an idiot, no he is" and "I'm just defending myself" stuff isn't going to fly anymore.

[cockerpunk]

You've got the terms - either of you step out of line in a thread together, you both get a vacation. Maybe then the two of you can figure out how to coexist.

And no - I will not keep bickering and childish arguing in a thread. You guys want to hash stuff out, do it privately.

The whole "he's an idiot, no he is" and "I'm just defending myself" stuff isn't going to fly anymore.

again, i cannot be held responsible for someone else's actions.

[OPBN]

Ever notice a common denominator in most of the threads that go wildly off course?

[BigEvil]

ever notice a common denominator in most of the threads that go wildly off course?

^
qft

[cockerpunk]

Ever notice a common denominator in most of the threads that go wildly off course?

this is why we need to not delete argument posts.

yes, i do. me saying something common sense, and then someone else freaking out about it. your thread was a perfect example. this one as well. and don't claim it was me, you were the one swearing and making a fuss at me, not the other way around.

[OPBN]

It has more to do with your insulting demeanor. We are not a bunch of ignorant noobs that need you to come save the day with your knowledge. You consistently talk down to people and insinuate that our viewpoints are either irrelevant or stupid and it gets old. You did some stupid barrel test a decade ago and it doesn't make you an expert on anything. Learn to just walk away if you don't have anything germane to add to the subject.

Let me say this clearly " Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them wrong or their opinions any less relevant". Knock it off and you won't get into pissing matches in every thread you come into.

[Dayspring]

again, i cannot be held responsible for someone else's actions.

Watch - cuz that's exactly what's going to happen.

Maybe BOTH of you will stop and think before typing something out if the end result of that post is just inane bickering.

[cockerpunk]

It has more to do with your insulting demeanor. We are not a bunch of ignorant noobs that need you to come save the day with your knowledge. You consistently talk down to people and insinuate that our viewpoints are either irrelevant or stupid and it gets old. You did some stupid barrel test a decade ago and it doesn't make you an expert on anything. Learn to just walk away if you don't have anything germane to add to the subject.

sending this response in PM because dayspring will ban me for your response to it.

[Dayspring]

sending this response in PM because dayspring will ban me for your response to it.

See? We're learning already.

[cockerpunk]

See? We're learning already.

that you will ban me for someone elses actions.

yup. got that.

[OPBN]

sending this response in PM because dayspring will ban me for your response to it.
No need. You have nothing I'm interested in hearing. Keep it to yourself.

[Dayspring]

that you will ban me for someone elses actions.

yup. got that.

I said it was between you and Nobody. See what happens when you read what you want and not what was actually written? (It goes both ways...)

[steve_81]

it has more to do with your insulting demeanor. We are not a bunch of ignorant noobs that need you to come save the day with your knowledge. You consistently talk down to people and insinuate that our viewpoints are either irrelevant or stupid and it gets old. You did some stupid barrel test a decade ago and it doesn't make you an expert on anything. Learn to just walk away if you don't have anything germane to add to the subject.

Let me say this clearly " just because someone disagrees with you does not make them wrong or their opinions any less relevant". Knock it off and you won't get into pissing matches in every thread you come into.

qft!

[Spider-TW]

The solenoids were very expensive :-(

:D I had been poking around on the solenoid duty cycle curves and figured out what size I would like to try. I started looking around for it and found out you could only get one off the shelf if you order something like 50, with no real discount. "Well that stinks". Then P8nt shows up on AO with some. I'm wondering where he found his. Then I see a pic of his 50 solenoids.

As a one off, it didn't make much sense as a personal project.

I think the unibody/rail system is an important decision for the intended market. Unibodies are pretty for what they are, but the rail system is more flexible.

[Nobody]

:D I had been poking around on the solenoid duty cycle curves and figured out what size I would like to try. I started looking around for it and found out you could only get one off the shelf if you order something like 50, with no real discount. "Well that stinks". Then P8nt shows up on AO with some. I'm wondering where he found his. Then I see a pic of his 50 solenoids.

As a one off, it didn't make much sense as a personal project.

I think the unibody/rail system is an important decision for the intended market. Unibodies are pretty for what they are, but the rail system is more flexible.

That is the key. Do you want flexibility or cleanliness of design? Each one, unibody and with rail, has its own merits. The overriding factor is in the design time and mill time. AFAIK, there is no advantage of the unibody over the rail.

[BigEvil]

Look at Nobody staying on topic

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55940357.jpg

[Nobody]

Look at Nobody staying on topic

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55940357.jpg

This guy gets it. :clap:

[BigEvil]

What were we talking about again?

[Nobody]

Well, a divergent tangent had us talking all about the possibilities and feasibility of producing a run of "private label" or a reproduction of some classic Mag bodies.

But overall, unless a benefactor comes in, throws down some $25K on a production run, with the ability to sit on the unsold ones, it will be hard to get a project of this magnitude off and running, no matter all the good intentions or even the help of all of the mag community.

[dodge3500]

Well I guess from the general sounds of things a new complete mag ready to go is like someone capturing Bigfoot or the lochness monster.I will however keep some glimmer of hope for a new custom mag one day.:)
I will say I'm greatful for XMT and Luke's contributions to the mag community and look forward to more in the future.

[BigEvil]

The biggest segment of the Automag market is most likely NOT on AO and has never heard of it. Tuna tells me that all the time, and judging by the amount of work I get nowadays off of Facebook from players who don't know about AO I tend to agree. AGD has sold thousands of valves over the years, and I imagine that the majority of them are in guns. Where are they all? They certainly are not here. The big hurdle is how to reach those customers. I would say off hand through AGD, but then again they don't do much to dispel the rumors of their own demise either..

[OPBN]

I would have to agree that there must be a large segment of the AGD community not here on AO. Just take into consideration the lack of parts that we see in the BST's. I am sure there were hundreds of each set of colored rails, VASA's, barrels etc, as well as splash kits and "private label" markers, but you rarely see them pop up. They have to be somewhere and they don't seem to be here. So either they are all hiding in peoples closets, or just with people not active online.

[Spider-TW]

The biggest segment of the Automag market is most likely NOT on AO and has never heard of it. Tuna tells me that all the time, and judging by the amount of work I get nowadays off of Facebook from players who don't know about AO I tend to agree. AGD has sold thousands of valves over the years, and I imagine that the majority of them are in guns. Where are they all? They certainly are not here. The big hurdle is how to reach those customers. I would say off hand through AGD, but then again they don't do much to dispel the rumors of their own demise either..

Yeah, the concept of an online forum is getting to be a stretch for the youngsters. Even when they find AO, many don't snap to the idea of searching the threads for what they want, even though they know search engines well enough. Facebook is getting old as well.

BE, you need to couple your videos to an instagram account, if you haven't already. I wouldn't know about anything on instagram, other than I could find my kids on there. :p

[BigEvil]

Yeah, the concept of an online forum is getting to be a stretch for the youngsters. Even when they find AO, many don't snap to the idea of searching the threads for what they want, even though they know search engines well enough. Facebook is getting old as well.

BE, you need to couple your videos to an instagram account, if you haven't already. I wouldn't know about anything on instagram. :p

Hoping to get back into the video thing when the weather warms up. You know me, I don't keep my opinions to myself. :D

Instagram is only for oogling pics of half naked hot chicks. Or so it seems to me. :)

[Laku]

Instagram is only for oogling pics of half naked hot chicks. Or so it seems to me. :)

Pics that have been horribly mangled by filters that are trying to mimic what you got from badly made film cameras and lenses back in the 60-80's... ;)

[luke]

But overall, unless a benefactor comes in, throws down some $25K on a production run, with the ability to sit on the unsold ones, it will be hard to get a project of this magnitude off and running, no matter all the good intentions or even the help of all of the mag community.

After I get my slug bodies up and going (which has more to do with manufacturing than aesthetics) I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations, all with the parts currently sitting in inventory. Once the working geometry of the complete assembly has been figured out (Again more in relation to the manufactured parts and them operating correctly) it's much easier to start focusing on aesthetics. All the years I've been at this have been headed towards a private label marker in one form or another.

So, if I can figure out how to manufacture bodies entirely on a VMC, (Which I believe I can) you will see a private label mag emerge and it should be this year. As soon as my current project is done I'm diving into developing my slug bodies. Once I have slugs made the possibilities will huge.

It'll happen and as always I'll end up paying for it. ;)

[ScottyBeans]

After I get my slug bodies up and going (which has more to do with manufacturing than aesthetics) I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations, all with the parts currently sitting in inventory. All the years I've been at this have been headed towards a private label marker in one form or another. Once the working geometry of the complete assembly has been figured out (Again more in relation to the manufactured parts and them operating correctly) it's much easier to start focusing on aesthetics.

So, if I can figure out how to manufacture bodies entirely on a VMC, (Which I believe I can) you will see a private label mag emerge and it should be this year. As soon as my current project is done I'm diving into developing my slug bodies. Once I have slugs made the possibilities will huge.

It'll happen and as always I'll end up paying for it. ;)

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:

[Patron God of Pirates]

After I get my slug bodies up and going (which has more to do with manufacturing than aesthetics) I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations, all with the parts currently sitting in inventory. All the years I've been at this have been headed towards a private label marker in one form or another. Once the working geometry of the complete assembly has been figured out (Again more in relation to the manufactured parts and them operating correctly) it's much easier to start focusing on aesthetics.

So, if I can figure out how to manufacture bodies entirely on a VMC, (Which I believe I can) you will see a private label mag emerge and it should be this year. As soon as my current project is done I'm diving into developing my slug bodies. Once I have slugs made the possibilities will huge.

It'll happen and as always I'll end up paying for it. ;)

Put my name on the pre-order!

[dodge3500]

Put my name on the pre-order!

Meeee tooooo!!!:)

[C_losjoker]

^^^^^^^^ Starting to save up my pennies.

[Laku]

After I get my slug bodies up and going (which has more to do with manufacturing than aesthetics) I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations, all with the parts currently sitting in inventory. Once the working geometry of the complete assembly has been figured out (Again more in relation to the manufactured parts and them operating correctly) it's much easier to start focusing on aesthetics. All the years I've been at this have been headed towards a private label marker in one form or another. So, if I can figure out how to manufacture bodies entirely on a VMC, (Which I believe I can) you will see a private label mag emerge and it should be this year. As soon as my current project is done I'm diving into developing my slug bodies. Once I have slugs made the possibilities will huge. It'll happen and as always I'll end up paying for it. ;)

I'm definitely interested. :D

[flampaint]

After I get my slug bodies up and going (which has more to do with manufacturing than aesthetics) I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations, all with the parts currently sitting in inventory. Once the working geometry of the complete assembly has been figured out (Again more in relation to the manufactured parts and them operating correctly) it's much easier to start focusing on aesthetics. All the years I've been at this have been headed towards a private label marker in one form or another.

So, if I can figure out how to manufacture bodies entirely on a VMC, (Which I believe I can) you will see a private label mag emerge and it should be this year. As soon as my current project is done I'm diving into developing my slug bodies. Once I have slugs made the possibilities will huge.

It'll happen and as always I'll end up paying for it. ;)

interested as well - sign me up!

[p8ntbal4me]

I could easily assemble more than 50 markers in a plethora of different configurations, ;)

Assume I am not a machinist:

Would the variation from designs drive up the cost due to setup changes?

Anyone I have dealt with for shops has always said "less tooling changes, less setup changes, less cost"

Are you thinking of a more modular machine setup or something I have missed?

[luke]

Yes, all that is true and for more reasons than stated. But my comment was more directed to the inventory currently sitting on the shelves, all I need are bodies and I could easily build 50 markers (minus valves and barrels). I don't subcontract anything so it does allow me some convenience to offer what I do.

[p8ntbal4me]

Yes, all that is true and for more reasons than stated. But my comment was more directed to the inventory currently sitting on the shelves, all I need are bodies and I could easily build 50 markers (minus valves and barrels). I don't subcontract anything so it does allow me some convenience to offer what I do.

Gotcha

[djinnform]

After Luke builds us the perfect 18 year-old virgin, or one of us wins the lottery and produces the brand new mag, at a great price, the very first thing you will do it take it apart and eventually build 3 more mags out of the parts, and get them all re-annoed by Caustic Customs. So, it's the price of the original new mag + 3 mags + anno of 25 parts + plus waiting in line at the post office.

Look at the Empire Resurrection, it's only cool if you change-out all the parts with Inception bodies and old Eclipse frames. If you got your hands on one, it would start morphing immediately. You know it's true.

[Patron God of Pirates]

From the sounds of it Luke is planing on have a number of variations between all the different rails, lpr/grips, frames, he's already got in stock plus whatever body he comes up with.

[Xmagterror]

after luke builds us the perfect 18 year-old virgin

ahhaha!!! Lmfao

[luke]

From the sounds of it Luke is planing on have a number of variations between all the different rails, lpr/grips, frames, he's already got in stock plus whatever body he comes up with.

Actually I have about 100 slug rails sitting on the shelf, so it's more likely the rails will be machined with the bodies. (New design(s)) ;)

[dodge3500]

Hey Luke:) about what part of this year do you think you will have time to start on a mag endeavor?
Thanks

[luke]

When my current project levels out. :)

[dodge3500]

That's understandable. I was wanting to make sure I have the cash available/saved up.:)