Autococker Curious (Caution: Long-winded OP)

[ghost flanker]

I recently started thinking about getting my first Autococker after all these years. I know next to nothing about them. I love mech guns though and have faithfully shot mags from the very beginning. When I bought my first mag in 1995, I very nearly got an Autococker instead - that beefy shroud with the ribs going over the barrel looked so cool - but the .68 Automag ultimately won out simply because my local paintball store had that one in stock at the time. I've been an Automag guy ever since and haven't looked back. Until now. I've heard about the special character that only cockers have and how fun they are to shoot - all those sounds and moving parts make them gleefully over-complicated like a Rube Goldberg machine. I'm intrigued and I think I'm ready to make the leap.

There's lots of different cockers out there to choose from it seems. It's a little daunting. I do know that, above all, I want a "fun gun" - something to putt around with in recball games. As such, it doesn't need to be high performance but it's got to be non-problematic. The 4 key aspects I require are good reliability, ease of maintenance/disassembly, a fluid single-finger trigger pull, and reasonably balanced ergonomics. Not so important qualities include rate of fire, overall weight, air efficiency/consistency, upgradability, and cost (to an extent). As far as marker appearance, I generally find pimped out, chrome glistening, brightly anodized, rediculously milled, aftermarket-upgraded guns to be a bit of a turn off. Just not my style. You lose a little history with customization, especially when it's altered to someone else's liking. For me, the more OEM the gun is, the better.

One of my first choices is a late 90s WGP specimen that is bone stock. I think the '98s in particular look great and they positively reek of paintball history. I'm a little concerned about their overall practicality, though. I hear that ball rollout, short stroking, and centerfeed necks are issues. I'm also concerned that numerous upgrades might be a necessity for the gun to function well (i.e. deal breaker, I don't want a project build). School me if my apprehensions here are unwarranted.

The other option I'm seriously considering is an Empire Resurrection. On the downside, it's missing that classic back-block as well as the pneumatics-shroud, and I don't care for the big "Empire" logo that's billboarded onto the side of the body, either. Nevertheless, they still look quite good. And apparently they function really well, too...though short stroking is still a thing. It has a clamping vertical feedneck, a purging ASA, and a matching barrel kit...all stock. Oh, and gone is the dreaded valve tool. Just not sure whether I prefer black or gray more. :)

There are other cocker variants too, such as AKAs and Shocktechs, but I know nothing about any of them. Tell me what you think would be the best choice for me. I'd especially like to hear opinions about my top 2 picks, but any cocker recommendation is welcome.

[Dark Side]

Honestly, CustomCockers would be the best place for all of your questions.

[Nobody]

From back to the mid to late 90s, reliability was dependent upon you the user. Many would swap this part & that part, sometimes for no real performance upgrade over stock. I have used cockers and shooting a well tuned cocker is a glorious feeling. With that, you need to look at how you play. That is the determing factor to good cocker use.

1) feednecks. If you want a revy and a side feed, that's fine. Some want/need centerfeeds. There is the rub. If you want locking feednecks, even CCM feednecks, either you have to go with something that it already has it or ego feedneck mod the older body. Right or left feeds don't have that problem, yet you have to have elbows. This will eliminate some older cockers.

2) upgrades. This is a a tricky point. You at least want/need adjustable LPR & HPR. The 4way & rams are less needed. Short throw 4ways like the bomb are great but have you need to balance the switch points with the sear and trigger. Once you learn that balance its fairly easy.

3) reliability. See above

4) triggers. This is a point of contention with me. I love sliders and hate pivot and double triggers on them. This is totally on you. I suggest trying to find someone with either that you can try & see which one you like.

5) Ressurection. I love them. Might be cause i know the man who made them happen. But it is a all in one gun the parts used have been refined that they are pretty much the best(and only new) parts you can have. You also have the customer service of a company STILL in business, which can't be said of others, as well as not having to hoard certain parts. Plus, with a Ressurection, you can have Inception bodies for it.

Custom cockers is better at this, but its not to say that people here only use one type of gun.

[going_home]

Of course mags are better.

If you need a headache get a cocker.....

[ghost flanker]

Nobody, what do you mean when you say reliability is dependent on the user? Are you referring to tuning and overall maintenance?
And I tend to play sneaky frontman in recball/woodsball games. I move around a lot and mostly prefer a tight setup. Is there a type of cocker that'd suit my particular style of play?

1.) I'd prefer centerfeed but I'm totally fine with right feed. It's negligible, really.

2.) Are stock LPRs and HPRs not adjustable on older cockers? What do adjustable ones do that non-adjustable ones can't?

3.) See above :)

4.) Definitely want a single-finger slider trigger.

5.) I've heard the same thing about Resurrections - that they're basically a cocker that comes stock with all the best upgrades already on it. Only negative thing I've heard is that the hammer (I think it was) is a bit rough which slightly reduces smoothness in the trigger pull. Other than that, people seem to love them.

I may register with Custom Cockers if I need further info and my resources here have been exhausted. Thanks guys. And keep those helpful posts coming!

[Nobody]

Nobody, what do you mean when you say reliability is dependent on the user? Are you referring to tuning and overall maintenance?

Because of the parts used to make an automated pump, there is a balance of you pulling the trigger, which drops the sear, which opens the valve which fires the gun. Then the trigger moves the 4way to switch air to the ram from the closed position to the open and then back again. It truly is a Rube Goldberg machine. The lack of reliability comes from changing one part or taking one part out of adjustment and it can throw off everything. If you get a cocker already set up, like a Ressurection, there is no need, but if you go with an older cocker, it would have a higher chance of part failure.

So it has more to do with understanding how each part functions AND how they function together. Change or adjust one piece you can get a monster of a blender.


And I tend to play sneaky frontman in recball/woodsball games. I move around a lot and mostly prefer a tight setup. Is there a type of cocker that'd suit my particular style of play?

Cocker have length. Add in a cocker with a back block and you have a longer gun. A half or midblock gun does shorten it on the back end but you do miss the back block circulation with each shot. I would highly suggest making friends with a cocker owner and possibly playing with the gun and see what you like and don't like so you can get a feel for the gun.


1.) I'd prefer centerfeed but I'm totally fine with right feed. It's negligible, really.

A majority of cockers, baring the Resurrection, will not have a locking feedneck. This can and will limit you hopper choices. On older stock or non-PL cockers, some may get upset if you chop them to retrofit a clamping feedneck. This is a something to look at.


2.) Are stock LPRs and HPRs not adjustable on older cockers? What do adjustable ones do that non-adjustable ones can't?

Nope. Sledgehammers and stock HPRs are not externally adjustable. If you have a problem with them, you need to degas, take apart & guess at your adjustment. Those 2 pieces are pretty much the 1st 2 things you change on a stock cocker. On most PL or aftermarket gun, those pieces are already changed. The LPR is in charge of setting pressure to the pneumatics. The HPR can be used two ways. 1, to set velocity, or you set pressure & change velocity with spring tension.


3.) See above :)

Answered above :p


4.) Definitely want a single-finger slider trigger.

It is a feel. Do shoot one before setting on one. It does take getting used to, as it is a 2 stage trigger. Some like the swing as it easier to some.


5.) I've heard the same thing about Resurrections - that they're basically a cocker that comes stock with all the best upgrades already on it. Only negative thing I've heard is that the hammer (I think it was) is a bit rough which slightly reduces smoothness in the trigger pull. Other than that, people seem to love them.

I don't know, but lmk if you are getting one, as i know of one of a shop/field(which we hold Tunaball at) that are masters of the cocker. If you get one from them, they will put a slight massage to help.out the gun. The Resurrection that i used(which is BigEvil's) was done by the field and i didn't feel anything.


I may register with Custom Cockers if I need further info and my resources here have been exhausted. Thanks guys. And keep those helpful posts coming!

While i think i can cover most bases, the more info you get, the more informed you will be when you buy one.

[ghost flanker]

Just registered with customcockers but I guess I'm not cleared to post anything there yet.

I have the opportunity to pick up a '98 WGP Autococker. It does have a Benchmark frame (slide trigger) but otherwise appears totally stock. And it's got the front shroud with good condition neoprene and the slant-cut ribs just the way I like it (images are failing to attach to this post for some reason so I can't show you). So old school! Looks like the bees knees, at least to me.

The only issue with the gun, according to the seller, is that the shroud seems too loose. He doesn't know why, though. It's so bad that apparently it will slide right off the gun when pointing down. I'm pretty infatuated with this cocker already and hope it's an easy fix. So any ideas why this might be happening? Can it be repaired?

[Nobody]

The front shrowd is held on by a friction fit to the front block. To tighten it, bend it in ;)

But the 98 is not bad. Other than the pneumatics, any and all internals MUST be for a pre-99 gun. IN 2000, they(WGP) made changes to the internals, so you can not use post 2000 parts. If it is stock on the front block, the ram & 4 way will be brass and the LPR will be all black without an adjustment screw on the front. Also the HPR will have the airline coming into the bottom with no adjustment. It would be the first thing to go, IMO.

As for what you will need first(but not necessarily needed to use it) would be a new HPR, a spring kit & a valve tool. You can certainly get a Palmer Rock to change out the LPR and then upgrade the 4way and even the ram, but it truly is up to you if you want.

[ScottyBeans]

I'll throw this out there - for your first autococker I'd recommend a 2k+ for the ease of having external lug adjustment alone. It's somewhat more difficult to do any meaningful adjustment when you have to pull the hammer out each time you want to adjust the firing point.

Also- the stock, pre-set "Sledgehammer" LPRs do a pretty good job and are very reliable. You may not be able to get the cycling pressure as low as possible like you can with an adjustable reg but it's a minor disadvantage at worst. I agree that an adjustable HPR is a must-have, more or less.

[Nobody]

98 should have the lug adjustment as it was standard. Only pre97 was it not there.

[cockerpunk]

the resurrection is great for a first time cocker buyer/shooter. simon really made the gun as easy to operate and shoot as possible, its an excellent bit of design.

if you know more about cockers, you can find something similar or better for less money, but its honestly tough to recommend anything else for a first timer because of the ease of use that the Resurrection has.

for a first timer, id avoid a pre-2000 gun. the gun was updated substantially post 97, and in 2000.

also you may want to consider a hinge, they are much faster, and more importantly, easier to shoot fast than a slider.

[ghost flanker]

I've identified the gun I'm thinking of getting as a '99 Autococker (the shroud and the bolt both correlate to that particular year).
913309133191332
I think the nostalgia is taking hold. I mean, look at it! ...okay, so maybe it's just me. :rolleyes:

A post-2K cocker or a Ressurection may very well be the smarter buy, but my priorities seem to be shifting more towards learning and discovery rather than performance. I almost prefer the handicap of a slower gun, actually. And I've never met a double trigger that I liked, and cocker hinge triggers look particularly ugly to me. Maybe pre-2K cockers are a pain in the ass to adjust but I'm still drawn. The 99's really had most of the kinks worked out, anyway. Right? I guess as long as air leaks and malfunctions are not a constant burden, I'm willing to give it a try. I repair hydraulic machinery for a living so the complexity issue doesn't really scare me - if a whole generation of cocker toting teenage kids who believed in the magic of closed-bolt range and accuracy could figure it out, I think I'll be ok.

I really intend on keeping this gun all stock, though. If I ever feel like I need better performance on the field, I'll look into a Ressurection or maybe build a post-2k custom cocker. That or I'll just grab something with an X-valve in it. :)

[Nobody]

Ok, that is a stock 98/99 cocker with a benchmark 45. Looks clean and unmolested.

Kudos to you in not jumping into it and changing this and that cause you can. With that, i HIGHLY suggest reading, rereading, and then reading again, Ravi Chopra's Infosheet. Not only is the information contained in it is probably the best cocker reference, but is also more specific to your needs as the 99 cocker was the penicle or subject of it. MCB has a link as i am sure CC will have it as well.

A whole lot of what i know was gleaned from that and even 15 years after it was written, it still is the best.

But i will give you a head start. To adjust velocity, you need to do 2 things. How it is set in the pictures, you need to take out the cocking rod(the rod under the bolt on the back block), and turn in or out to change spring tension of the hammer opening the valve. It is a PITA. The other method is to change the air pressure through the HPR. So ditch that and play with it.

The stock pneumatics are stock. If they work, then you don't NEED to change them. Other than 4way orings, its a fire and forget kinda thing. Some actually perfer the stock pneumatics, as it is one less thing to muck about.

When you air it up, hold trigger and go for it. Going from mags to cockers, you will need to relearn how to pull the trigger fully again. It is practicing good trigger hygiene. That is nearly direct from Ravi Chopra. So enjoy it. There is nothing like a well tuned cocker, or just a cocker that just shoots. I know, itz heresy to say such things on AO, but its the truth. Totally different, yet equally rewarding.

[Dayspring]

TechPB did an autococker show of death a while back. It covers the basics and pretty much everything you may need:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yty2wMSSQDk

[ghost flanker]

Ha! I just read Ravi Chopra's article on stock Autocockers last night as well as his stock '99 review - that's how I learned to identify a '98 from a '99. His '99 review also dispelled a lot of apprehension and helped significantly with my decision. I was stoked to learn that the specimen I've been eyeballing for the past few days turned out to be a '99. A handy bunch of 411 he's accumulated there.

What I hadn't seen before was Mike's Autococker Show. What a great resource that footage is! I'll certainly be watching that video while adjusting anything on my soon to be and first Autococker. Thanks a bunch guys!

[ghost flanker]

Woohoo! Just won the auction for that '99 Autococker.:dance:

[ScottyBeans]

Woohoo! Just won the auction for that '99 Autococker.:dance:

nice! enjoy, man. cockers are fun little guns

[Gadget]

I was in the same position last year - mag owner since '93 but had never owned or used a cocker. I started with a Resurrection - they are amazingly good for the money. Only things I didn't like were the absence of a back block for the proper sewing-machine effect and also I worried that the Ego-style finger detents would get bent out of shape as the bolt sits forward in storage (no idea if this is true or not!). After that I wanted something with a bit of history and ended up with an early right-feed Evolution, which I added a complete set of modern Belsales pneumatics to. Once you get the hang of how they work, cockers aren't really any more difficult to tech than a mag, just different.

91342

I mainly play magfed/limited loader games now (max 50 ball gravity hopper) and use both my mag and Evo, although I've found the mag to feed far more reliably when you're using a poor feed system, as the powerfeed maintains a longer ball stack and you can shake an open-bolt gun and have a ball drop into the breech, whereas when you shake a closed bolt gun it just drops a ball above the bolt, so your first shot tends to be a blank!

[ghost flanker]

Funny you should say that, Gadget - the lack of a back block or that sewing machine sound signature in the Ressurection were two of my biggest reasons for not choosing it, ultimately. Judging from video footage of Resurrections firing, they sure seem quiet - the impacts down range are louder than the shots, themselves! But the '99 has a little more character to it simply because it is louder and sloppier.

[ghost flanker]

the resurrection is great for a first time cocker buyer/shooter. simon really made the gun as easy to operate and shoot as possible, its an excellent bit of design.

if you know more about cockers, you can find something similar or better for less money, ...
I was under the preconception that the Resurrection already has the best of everything on it. Interesting. I may look into getting a more capable autococker later on down the line. Aside from ones with a double-finger hinge or E-trigger, what other cockers are better for less money? In what ways are they better?

[The Ritual]

Although the resurrection is an excellent out of the box mechanical half block aimed at the newer generation of players, I don't think it appeals as much to those who desire total customization or those who really enjoy tinkering with absolutely everything on their autocockers. Perhaps that is what cockerpunk meant.

One can buy a cheap, used body and used parts and still build a great shooting autococker.

I'm not suggesting that the resurrection cannot be customized, as Simon has released custom bodies, but the resurrection just doesn't have as many options at this point in time.

This is my 98 Belsales Evolution. It took me about 3 years to source all the parts I needed for this build.

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/jetdelacruz/IMAG3442_zpsf62uchxe.jpg (http://s971.photobucket.com/user/jetdelacruz/media/IMAG3442_zpsf62uchxe.jpg.html)
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae197/jetdelacruz/IMAG3437_zpsacx7bjxi.jpg (http://s971.photobucket.com/user/jetdelacruz/media/IMAG3437_zpsacx7bjxi.jpg.html)

and then there is fun with suction timing...

http://youtu.be/-liKFTWvcvY

[cockerpunk]

I was under the preconception that the Resurrection already has the best of everything on it. Interesting. I may look into getting a more capable autococker later on down the line. Aside from ones with a double-finger hinge or E-trigger, what other cockers are better for less money? In what ways are they better?

building a cocker yourself, you can make a better gun for far less money.

but that requires knowing exactly what parts to buy at what price, and how to install and set up the gun properly etc etc.

used is almost always cheaper than new in paintball, and in cockers, its huge.

[Evil1]

Of course mags are better.

If you need a headache get a cocker.....

Having owned a cocker, they can be a huge headache. They shoot well when in tune, but idk how many of you on here are musicians or firearms enthusiasts. A cocker can be like an old finicky guitar. One day it will play like a beast and the other, it will chop or misfire like crazy and you can know everything about a cocker and still be absolutely befuddled on what's wrong with it. Certain hammers suck on them. Cocking rods bend. Bolts wear out quickly on them. A well tuned mag is like an ak-47. You can keep it in storage for close to 10 years and it will still fire. I personally have an xvalve that sat since 2006 and aired it up for the first time and it cycles. A mag is a very well engineered gun. Tom Kaye really is a genius.

[djinnform]

Of course mags are better.

If you need a headache get a cocker.....

Yeah, I thought having a pneumatic Karni would be cool. So I traded for one and fixed it up, but could never get it to really work correctly. The velocity was always fluctuating and the ball would roll out the barrel. But, I still loved Karni. So, after failed attempts messing with it more and more, I said screw it, and actually paid big bucks and bought a brand new, unused Karni on ebay, to see if they worked correctly, straight out of the box. Low and behold, the brand new Karni had all the same problems as my old used Karni, and then exploded and jammed. So now, they're wall hangers for the moment, until I feel like having some more headaches. I suck at autocockers!

[UncleStasiu]

Going through this right now, building one after owning two that worked great out of the box, without fiddling. Finally got it timed after a week of screwing around, now it won't fire over 150fps. Another week of messing with springs, yay!

That said, I'm insane. I put cocker frames on mags, polish sears, change trigger rod and on/off pin lengths, etc. All the things one should never ever do. Somehow, though, my mags work perfectly every time I pick them up. I credit TK for making a stupid-resistant product.

Here's hoping the cocker eventually "just works"...

[going_home]

Good luck with that.

You know what they say, "hope in one hand, spit in the other, and see which hand fills up first".


;)

[Nobody]

Cockers have their limitations, where if you change a part or adjust it, it can throw the entire gun out. Everyone is different.

The biggest change would be the detent. The cocker has a true anti-double feed. Because of the closed bolt design, it will load a ball, then push it passed into the breech. You definitely need to watch bore sizes with your barrels. Years ago, Lapco made cocker to cocker barrel backs that were sized smaller to prevent this. Better barrels or more proliferation of smaller barrels makes this unneeded, but point your barrel down and you will loose a paintball.

[zondo]

Good luck with that.

You know what they say, "hope in one hand, spit in the other, and see which hand fills up first".


;)

Where do you come up with these?

Oh, yeah... south Florida :rolleyes:

[cockerpunk]

Having owned a cocker, they can be a huge headache. They shoot well when in tune, but idk how many of you on here are musicians or firearms enthusiasts. A cocker can be like an old finicky guitar. One day it will play like a beast and the other, it will chop or misfire like crazy and you can know everything about a cocker and still be absolutely befuddled on what's wrong with it. Certain hammers suck on them. Cocking rods bend. Bolts wear out quickly on them. A well tuned mag is like an ak-47. You can keep it in storage for close to 10 years and it will still fire. I personally have an xvalve that sat since 2006 and aired it up for the first time and it cycles. A mag is a very well engineered gun. Tom Kaye really is a genius.

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

[Dayspring]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

I respectfully disagree. 10 years with the same ULT and Level 10 setup - used the gun about a month ago, JUST started leaking. Otherwise, problem free.

[cockerpunk]

I respectfully disagree. 10 years with the same ULT and Level 10 setup - used the gun about a month ago, JUST started leaking. Otherwise, problem free.

lots of cockers can do the same thing. i tend to tune lvl 10s conservatively because they go out so easily otherwise.

i have not retimed a cocker of mine in years ...

[zondo]

What are you doing to tune your L10 all the time? Are you changing springs and adding/subtracting shims?

[Nobody]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but you are doing something very wrong. :D

My classic valve, which i installed the L10 kit in it within the 1st year of being released. So what, 2002? So nearly 13 years with the same spring, carrier and orings. When it leaks, throw in some oil. That is all. And, to throw salt in the wound, my efficiency went up AFTER installing the L10. Guess i messed up...

[going_home]

Where do you come up with these?

Oh, yeah... south Florida :rolleyes:

Tampa is not south Florida.

I cleaned the saying up to "G" instead of the original "R" .


;)

[zondo]

Tampa is not south Florida.

I cleaned the saying up to "G" instead of the original "R" .


;)

Everything is south Florida in relation to Jax.

[Laku]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

I have to disagree as well, my experience is quite the opposite.

[djinnform]

Tune the ULT? Dratts. Those shims - I never ventured there.

[ghost flanker]

The concept of the Level 10 bolt admittingly delves into the realm of over-engineering a tad due to it requiring finer tolerances than o-ring manufacturers could ever meet in order for it to function properly. Tom Kaye did come up with a clever method to get around o-ring limitations using varying sized carriers, though. Also, it's been my experience that, once tuned, the Level 10 is quite problem free and typically remains so for years before the carrier's o-ring requires replacement. However, the issue arises when said o-ring does require replacement. If a power tube leak happens on the field, do you have all those other carriers there with you? I suppose if you were smart enough to bring your parts kit containing replacement o-rings then your set of carriers will be just another part of that kit anyway, so perhaps the point is moot. Still, repairing this leak is no longer "1. Disassemble, 2. Replace o-ring, 3. Reassemble, 4. Go" like a Level 7 would be. Now, with a Level 10, you need to conduct a more time consuming trial-and-error testing that may have you disassemble and reassemble the gun several times before you're good to go.

So does the Level 10 diminish a mag's reliability? If your definition of "reliability" is the frequency of malfunctions occurring during game play that affects or can potentially affect performance, then my answer is no. My Level 10 bolts do not leak or fail noticeably more often than their Level 7 counterparts. If anything, reliability is actually increased due to the reduction in ball chop malfunctions.

What is negatively impacted (somewhat) by a Level 10 bolt is "ease of maintenance", which is a completely different thing from reliability. A Tippmann 98 Custom is an extremely reliable gun due to how infrequently it breaks down, but it's ease of maintenance is horrible. Disassembly to repair anything internally when issues do occur is difficult and time consuming, at best. This is where Level 7 mags truly shine - no other paintball marker is quicker or easier to service (at least none that I'm aware of). Tuning a Level 10 may not be as frustrating as reassembling a 98 Custom but it requires a methodological approach to do it right.

[ghost flanker]

By the way, look what arrived in the mail today...
91373
...posed with my favorite Minimag for added old school goodness. :D

Of course, the cocker needs to be timed badly. Fortunately I'm learning a lot from this thread, and thanks again for introducing me to techpb's Cockershow, Dayspring.

[cockerpunk]

I hate to be the one to tell you, but you are doing something very wrong. :D

My classic valve, which i installed the L10 kit in it within the 1st year of being released. So what, 2002? So nearly 13 years with the same spring, carrier and orings. When it leaks, throw in some oil. That is all. And, to throw salt in the wound, my efficiency went up AFTER installing the L10. Guess i messed up...

you can stave off the leak for while with oil, but you actually need a smaller carrier. over oiling causes problems too, you end up with lots of oil in the barrel, which effects accuracy.

and again, a cocker will hold time for years as well. only need to retime them when you adjust something you dont need to, or change something. you can also time a cocker mostly without air.

[BigEvil]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

Pretty ignorant reply right there....

[Nobody]

you can stave off the leak for while with oil, but you actually need a smaller carrier. over oiling causes problems too, you end up with lots of oil in the barrel, which effects accuracy.

and again, a cocker will hold time for years as well. only need to retime them when you adjust something you dont need to, or change something. you can also time a cocker mostly without air.

Yes, i have oiled it every 4 years now. And i am not as stupid as you look. I shoot out the oil without a barrel.

But the important points of the timing of a cocker HAS to having air. Its like trying to bleed your breaks alone. Gordo, just stop while you are ahead with this. I beg of you.

[cockerpunk]

Yes, i have oiled it every 4 years now. And i am not as stupid as you look. I shoot out the oil without a barrel.

But the important points of the timing of a cocker HAS to having air. Its like trying to bleed your breaks alone. Gordo, just stop while you are ahead with this. I beg of you.

i said nothing about you or your looks.

either way, mags with the most advanced stuff, tuned well, do require maintenance. cockers do too, just different types at different times. cockers are not fundamentally more work, neither are mags. mags just arn't "bullet proof" and cockers arn't "finicky" an informed and knowledgeable user of either can make either very reliable, and use them well.

"let us not mistake unfamiliarity, with unreliability"

mags are more simple, but tougher to understand. they are also typically tougher to work on at the field. cockers are more intuitive if more complex. most of the adjustments can be made on the dirty pick-nick table at a field. both can be reliable, both are. i merely protested that mags are "bullet proof" and cockers are not. i have extensive experience with both guns, i have owned and shot many examples of both. i use both regularly. mags do require work. whenever you are relying on such tight frictional tolerances as a lvl 10 or ULT, it requires tuning. that makes it not bullet proof.

[Nobody]

i said nothing about you or your looks.

either way, mags with the most advanced stuff, tuned well, do require maintenance. cockers do too, just different types at different times. cockers are not fundamentally more work, neither are mags. mags just arn't "bullet proof" and cockers arn't "finicky" an informed and knowledgeable user of either can make either very reliable, and use them well.

"let us not mistake unfamiliarity, with unreliability"

mags are more simple, but tougher to understand. they are also typically tougher to work on at the field. cockers are more intuitive if more complex. most of the adjustments can be made on the dirty pick-nick table at a field. both can be reliable, both are. i merely protested that mags are "bullet proof" and cockers are not. i have extensive experience with both guns, i have owned and shot many examples of both. i use both regularly. mags do require work. whenever you are relying on such tight frictional tolerances as a lvl 10 or ULT, it requires tuning. that makes it not bullet proof.

Your statements are asinine and double talk.

By simple math, you have 2 orings in a mag that could go wrong, the powertip and the on/off. In a cocker you have the 4way, the ram, the valve, the LPR, the HPR, the cupseal. All have potential orings that could fail. Also by definition, the more parts you have, the more that could go wrong.

I do not see how you can even say that mags are not easy to work on. 1 screw and the valve comes out. In a cocker, you have to drop the frame, move the sear lug, unscrew the beavertail, remove the IVG, use a COCKER VALVE TOOL, just to get at the valve. If it were the cup seal, you have to remove the bolt, remove the cocking rod, unscrew the front block, slide the timing rod out from the trigger, just to access it. In the time it took me to write this, anyone could have replaced the powertube oring and had a working gun again. Seriously, as complex as the theory is, mags are infinietly easier to work on than a cocker. You do not need to understand theory of what makes them work, just where you need to pay attention to. I have put together a cocker on the field and it worked, yet i can't say that it was timed perfectly. Mags you don't have to time.

Seriously, you are assbackwards in your ideas. 6 parts make up a mag: body, rail, sear, valve, trigger and ASA. In a cocker, there are 6 pieces in the trigger frame alone: sear, trigger plate, frame, sear spring and trigger spring.

You don't add in parts to make something more complex. If you were any sort of engineer, you know that a Rube Goldberg machine, which cockers are, don't get easier with the more parts added. So please, think about what you are saying, then make the statement. Apologies will be accepted.

[BigEvil]

i said nothing about you or your looks.

whenever you are relying on such tight frictional tolerances as a lvl 10 or ULT, it requires tuning. that makes it not bullet proof.

You are kidding there right? :rofl:

[cockerpunk]

Your statements are asinine and double talk.

By simple math, you have 2 orings in a mag that could go wrong, the powertip and the on/off. In a cocker you have the 4way, the ram, the valve, the LPR, the HPR, the cupseal. All have potential orings that could fail. Also by definition, the more parts you have, the more that could go wrong.

I do not see how you can even say that mags are not easy to work on. 1 screw and the valve comes out. In a cocker, you have to drop the frame, move the sear lug, unscrew the beavertail, remove the IVG, use a COCKER VALVE TOOL, just to get at the valve. If it were the cup seal, you have to remove the bolt, remove the cocking rod, unscrew the front block, slide the timing rod out from the trigger, just to access it. In the time it took me to write this, anyone could have replaced the powertube oring and had a working gun again. Seriously, as complex as the theory is, mags are infinietly easier to work on than a cocker. You do not need to understand theory of what makes them work, just where you need to pay attention to. I have put together a cocker on the field and it worked, yet i can't say that it was timed perfectly. Mags you don't have to time.

Seriously, you are assbackwards in your ideas. 6 parts make up a mag: body, rail, sear, valve, trigger and ASA. In a cocker, there are 6 pieces in the trigger frame alone: sear, trigger plate, frame, sear spring and trigger spring.

You don't add in parts to make something more complex. If you were any sort of engineer, you know that a Rube Goldberg machine, which cockers are, don't get easier with the more parts added. So please, think about what you are saying, then make the statement. Apologies will be accepted.

there are a lot more than 2 orings that can go wrong in a mag. sorry, its not that simple. i assume you have owned enough mags to have all manner of issues with them, from body/valve concentricity, leaking RT gas through rings, trigger pins coming out of adjustment, and the classic bolt kit and on/off issues. you can even have reg seal/seat/pin issues.

and automag is a machine, it can fail in any number of ways. not just "two orings" otherwise every thread in the tech section would be "power tube oring" or "on/off oring" ... its a machine. its more complicated than that. sorry.

parts counts are irrelevent, example;

retiming a cocker ... i dont need to take anything apart. literally, every adjustment i need can be accessed while fully assembled. tuning a level 10, or ULT, you will need a nice clean place to take the gun fully apart to do either. almost everything that can go wrong with a mag requires a full break down, almost nothing that goes wrong with a cocker requires full break down. this is because most functional bits on a cocker are on the outside.

parts count is irrelevant.

EDIT: with my reputation as a techy and old school guy, i get handed guns all the time asked to fix them. mags, cockers, angels, matrixes, you name it. i've seen some really crazy **** go wrong with a lot of them. the most common mag one is "it leaks" and i always ask "what happens when you pull the trigger and hold it down" and they say "i don't know" but i have seen some other really strange stuff with mags too, even a cursory browse of the tech section on this very forum talks about quite a few different issues.


You are kidding there right? :rofl:

so, you mean the kit doesn't come with 3 orings and a half a dozen to a dozen carriers to dial in the friction fit exactly right?





no value judgement on either gun, i own and love both types, as not only are the guns themselves very different to shoot, but also there philosophy and fundamental are so vastly different. i am glad to own both. im glad to live in a world where we have both. but when you introduce some of the later upgrades to mags, like the lvl 10 and the ULT, you are leaving the bullet proof concept behind. an all steel classic lvl 7 mag with a poly frame? pretty bullet proof. a tuned on the edge lvl 10 with a mega-light ULT in an X valve ... thats no longer a bullet proof gun.

recently was talking to bryce about this very thing, he was commenting that my azodin wont be as reliable as my mag is. "because sears break and stuff like that" true, blowbacks break sears, but it takes about 10 minutes to change one out, how much worse is that then retuning a lvl 10? you gotta do both of them every couple of years ... is one "bullet proof" and the other not?

they are all machines, and machines can fail. and the more accurate and narrow your operating regime is, the tougher it is keep the machine in that range. the friction effects in a lvl 10, and the length effects of the ULT shim stack are perfect examples. we live in a world of imperfect orings, and automags are particularly sensitive to them, thats why you have to set up these systems.

[ghost flanker]

Dammit, going_home! I blame you for this! Look at what you started with your first post.:goodjob::rolf: Total butterfly effect.

Now, I'm terribly sorry to interupt the love note exchange between you guys - it's apparent you're all quite fond of each other - but my quest for knowledge continues. Cockerpunk, you had mentioned something about timing a depressurized autococker. I'd like to hear more about that.

[Dayspring]

Dammit, going_home! I blame you for this! Look at what you started with your first post.:goodjob::rolf: Total butterfly effect.

Now, I'm terribly sorry to interupt the love note exchange between you guys - it's apparent you're all quite fond of each other - but my quest for knowledge continues. Cockerpunk, you had mentioned something about timing a depressurized autococker. I'd like to hear more about that.

Yeah - let's get back to the ACTUAL conversation. No more bickering.

[Nobody]

there are a lot more than 2 orings that can go wrong in a mag. sorry, its not that simple. i assume you have owned enough mags to have all manner of issues with them, from body/valve concentricity, leaking RT gas through rings, trigger pins coming out of adjustment, and the classic bolt kit and on/off issues. you can even have reg seal/seat/pin issues.

Actually it is that simple, in 90% of the cases. If it is leaking out the barrel/powertube, its the powertube oring. If it is leaking out of the on/off, then its one of the 2 orings. Maybe its cause i hang out, play with Tuna and BigEvil, who are the best techs for the platform, i get a little knowledge from them in addition to owning my own mag since 1998. The trigger rod can be checked with a credit card, if it comes undone. The red loctite isn't something that is normally in my gearbag, yet it can be easily had. And here is a "pro tip", don't mess with it and no need to adjust anything.


and automag is a machine, it can fail in any number of ways. not just "two orings" otherwise every thread in the tech section would be "power tube oring" or "on/off oring" ... its a machine. its more complicated than that. sorry.

If you look at something that could fail, then it will. If you are pulling it constantly, then it will fail. Yet those posts, how many people do state that if the leak is down the barrel its that oring and in the on/off its those. Try actually reading through the posts to see what was said, and what fixed it. Assumption does not become your arguments


parts counts are irrelevent, example;

retiming a cocker ... i dont need to take anything apart. literally, every adjustment i need can be accessed while fully assembled. tuning a level 10, or ULT, you will need a nice clean place to take the gun fully apart to do either. almost everything that can go wrong with a mag requires a full break down, almost nothing that goes wrong with a cocker requires full break down. this is because most functional bits on a cocker are on the outside.

If by break down, you unscrew ONE BOLT, then yes you do have to break down the gun. The simplicity of the design, being in a tight little package does lend itself to that though the mechanism is complex in it's workings. Yet the user doesn't need to know bow or why it works, just to air here, point & shoot.

Blow a cup seal, you are breaking down the gun. Don't tighten the valve nut, you are breaking down the gun. Changing the LPR, you are breaking down the front block. You can not deny the modularity of the design, where 2 screws holds the gun together. You are confusing the pneumatics with the guts, for one screw, you have the bolt, reg, on/off, powertube.


parts count is irrelevant.

EDIT: with my reputation as a techy and old school guy, i get handed guns all the time asked to fix them. mags, cockers, angels, matrixes, you name it. i've seen some really crazy **** go wrong with a lot of them. the most common mag one is "it leaks" and i always ask "what happens when you pull the trigger and hold it down" and they say "i don't know" but i have seen some other really strange stuff with mags too, even a cursory browse of the tech section on this very forum talks about quite a few different issues.

And????? Anyone that is known to shoot older guns or specific guns, has a little book on potential problems for those guns. Don't think yourself the only one who has fixed a gun.


so, you mean the kit doesn't come with 3 orings and a half a dozen to a dozen carriers to dial in the friction fit exactly right?

As exact as the mag is with tolerances, each gun would need a small cross section of parts. Of which after you find the combo that works for you, you don't need to change. Case in point, my classic never has chewed through orings, i think i changed a spring in it, and if it leaks a little, more through inactivity, it is because the orings are dry, not because they are shredded.


no value judgement on either gun, i own and love both types, as not only are the guns themselves very different to shoot, but also there philosophy and fundamental are so vastly different. i am glad to own both. im glad to live in a world where we have both. but when you introduce some of the later upgrades to mags, like the lvl 10 and the ULT, you are leaving the bullet proof concept behind. an all steel classic lvl 7 mag with a poly frame? pretty bullet proof. a tuned on the edge lvl 10 with a mega-light ULT in an X valve ... thats no longer a bullet proof gun.

But they are bullet proof guns, anvils for their simplicity. A concept that you seen not to grasp. Might be that only i am engaging you on this fact, yet they are. Now i have no persoa.l experie.e with


recently was talking to bryce about this very thing, he was commenting that my azodin wont be as reliable as my mag is. "because sears break and stuff like that" true, blowbacks break sears, but it takes about 10 minutes to change one out, how much worse is that then retuning a lvl 10? you gotta do both of them every couple of years ... is one "bullet proof" and the other not?


they are all machines, and machines can fail. and the more accurate and narrow your operating regime is, the tougher it is keep the machine in that range. the friction effects in a lvl 10, and the length effects of the ULT shim stack are perfect examples. we live in a world of imperfect orings, and automags are particularly sensitive to them, thats why you have to set up these systems.

Yet, by simple math, the more parts you have, the more you deviate from the original setup(cockers is the sniper & mags the lvl7), the farther away you get from reliability as you put it.

[Nobody]

Yeah - let's get back to the ACTUAL conversation. No more bickering.

Educating one that has little to no clue is not bickering. It is education. :)

[going_home]

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/a2f1574269e0c6a5e5e00fd7607e5cdd368df83.gif

[cockerpunk]

Dammit, going_home! I blame you for this! Look at what you started with your first post.:goodjob::rolf: Total butterfly effect.

Now, I'm terribly sorry to interupt the love note exchange between you guys - it's apparent you're all quite fond of each other - but my quest for knowledge continues. Cockerpunk, you had mentioned something about timing a depressurized autococker. I'd like to hear more about that.

once the three way is setup on a cocker, and the trigger adjusted to match, you can typically time the lug without air. esp if you are good and know where you set your three way trip point. if you are really short on air, you can pull the hammer out and just pump the 3 way with the trigger and get that all set up with a fraction of the air full shots require.

most of the time, once you set up a set of pneumatics, you don't have to adjust anything up there. but to take the valve out, you need to take the hammer out, and that means adjusting the lug. now you can, if you have a measuring tool handy, measure the lug, and put it back in the same place if you want to, but rarely at a field do you have a caliper or depth mic, so its nice to be able to quickly get the lug close. and you can do that by feel without air, pumping the gun like a pump gun.

i've used this trick many times getting cockers close. or even fully setting them up. like chronoing a gun by sound, or pressure against your hand, its one of those tricks that uses a lot of experience.


Actually it is that simple, in 90% of the cases. If it is leaking out the barrel/powertube, its the powertube oring. If it is leaking out of the on/off, then its one of the 2 orings. Maybe its cause i hang out, play with Tuna and BigEvil, who are the best techs for the platform, i get a little knowledge from them in addition to owning my own mag since 1998. The trigger rod can be checked with a credit card, if it comes undone. The red loctite isn't something that is normally in my gearbag, yet it can be easily had. And here is a "pro tip", don't mess with it and no need to adjust anything.

and i get handed guns all the time by players who have zero experience with them and have messed them up nice and royally. they know me as a old school techy kinda guy, and get handed there projects all the time.

suffice to say, a lot can wrong with a mag.

If you look at something that could fail, then it will. If you are pulling it constantly, then it will fail. Yet those posts, how many people do state that if the leak is down the barrel its that oring and in the on/off its those. Try actually reading through the posts to see what was said, and what fixed it. Assumption does not become your arguments

this doesn't make sense.

If by break down, you unscrew ONE BOLT, then yes you do have to break down the gun. The simplicity of the design, being in a tight little package does lend itself to that though the mechanism is complex in it's workings. Yet the user doesn't need to know bow or why it works, just to air here, point & shoot.

Blow a cup seal, you are breaking down the gun. Don't tighten the valve nut, you are breaking down the gun. Changing the LPR, you are breaking down the front block. You can not deny the modularity of the design, where 2 screws holds the gun together. You are confusing the pneumatics with the guts, for one screw, you have the bolt, reg, on/off, powertube.

i was not arguing one is better than the other, or that there are no instances where a cocker needs to be fully broken down.

merely pointing out that sans valve trouble (which is pretty rare in a basic poppit valve), most of what needs to be worked on, is on the outside, and doesn't need to be taken apart very much because of it.

And????? Anyone that is known to shoot older guns or specific guns, has a little book on potential problems for those guns. Don't think yourself the only one who has fixed a gun.

this directly contradicts your above assertion that nothing else besides power-tube oring and on/off oring can possibly go wrong because you play with players at tunaball.

As exact as the mag is with tolerances, each gun would need a small cross section of parts. Of which after you find the combo that works for you, you don't need to change. Case in point, my classic never has chewed through orings, i think i changed a spring in it, and if it leaks a little, more through inactivity, it is because the orings are dry, not because they are shredded.

just like a cocker!

But they are bullet proof guns, anvils for their simplicity. A concept that you seen not to grasp. Might be that only i am engaging you on this fact, yet they are. Now i have no persoa.l experie.e with

you broke up a bit at the end there. i fully understand the design and function of an automag.

Yet, by simple math, the more parts you have, the more you deviate from the original setup(cockers is the sniper & mags the lvl7), the farther away you get from reliability as you put it

yup, NOPE.jpg

.

in the interests of not being banned because evidentially i can be banned for other people's posts on these boards, i've said my piece, and this response is as desperate and silly as i've seen from you in a while, so thats that.

have fun, nobody, can't wait until you destroy another thread!

[blackdeath1k]

Love that 99. I'm still lusting at my brother n laws 96. But alas. I'm lazy so I'll stick with old faithful. I will say however though that in 2008 I got drug out to play with a friend. First time I had played since 03. I had my classic rt that hadn't been used since 03. And the aforementioned 96 cocker that hadn't been used since probably 99. Ironically my rt wouldn't cycle. Stuck air on the cocker and it cycled fine. So I played that day with the cocker. Granted all my mag needed was a new bumper as the OEM one had melted and turned to glue in storage. In the end it was the cocker that actually needed nothing to function that day. What I've seen over the years both markers can be very rugged. And as much as I love my mags. Nothing beats the look and sound of a well tuned old cocker.

[ghost flanker]

Thanks, blackdeath1K. At first, I wished that it still had the stock frame, but the benchmark is really quite comfy and matches aesthetically extremely well. Right now it cocks and fires simultaneously, but once I adjust the timing it's gonna be painting up some modern electro shooters just like my mags do.

[Dayspring]

I have an Autococker body (99 STO) that I'm getting hydro dipped. It's seen better days, so why not.

http://www.nickpapandria.com/pics/Paintball/Cocker_Before1.jpg

Whoever had it before me used grease where they shouldn't have (or it was paint that has since solidified). The chrome on the grip is flaked off too:

http://www.nickpapandria.com/pics/Paintball/Cocker_Before2.jpg

[Nobody]

Thanks, blackdeath1K. At first, I wished that it still had the stock frame, but the benchmark is really quite comfy and matches aesthetically extremely well. Right now it cocks and fires simultaneously, but once I adjust the timing it's gonna be painting up some modern electro shooters just like my mags do.

Adjust in/ shorten the timing rod or adjust the hammer lug out. You do want it close but still can drop the hammer before cocking, but also make sure that you are pulling the trigger fully. It is a 2 stage trigger and you need to complete the fire stage before the cocking stage.

[ghost flanker]

So I'm experiencing a problem with timing my autococker while following along Ravi Chopra's article; http://mcarterbrown.com/ravi/Articles/AutocockerInfosheet/ACTroub.html.

The issue is that my gun often fails to cock fully when firing. It cocks fine when I pull the back block manually. But when the trigger is pulled, the gun will often do this;

1.) Fires about 33%-50% into the trigger pull while simultaneously thrusting the back block back but not with enough pressure to fully cock the cocking rod
2.) Immediately thereafter, a heavy leak will vent out the front of the 3-way
3.) The 3-way leak continues as I pull the trigger all the way back
4.) When the trigger is released, the leak out the front of the 3-way stops, a smaller leak out the back of the 3-way often starts, and the back block and (uncocked) cocking rod both come forward.

Screwing out the back block or screwing in the nut on the cocking rod to get the gun to cock properly does nothing. I think the heavy leak out the front of the 3-way may be causing the ram to not generate enough pressure to fully cock the gun. It's also draining several of my once full air tanks trying to troubleshoot this problem. I tried disassembling the gun in an attempt to access the 3-way's o-rings to inspect for damage/wear, but the timing rod does not slide out of the 3-way like Mike's gun does in his video. Am I doing something wrong here? I do see a small snap ring on the front of the 3-way. Do I need to buy tiny snap ring pliers just to access these o-rings?! Or have I somehow screwed up the timing on the timing rod?

Also, my apparently aftermarket trigger plate has a hole for the timing rod rather than a slot. According to the addendum at the bottom of "Step 4: Set the Timing Rod Length", my post 2K style tigger plate requires that the cocking point be set very close to, if not directly coinciding with the firing point" - this is how the gun was pretty much set up when I got it. Any attempt to adjust the cocking point back results in a leak out the back of the 3-way. Does this gun have the wrong trigger plate on it? Or is a post 2K frame and trigger ok?

[cfos00]

The hole versus slot isn't a big deal. It just took the slop out of the plate, and frankly the best trigger jobs back then involved pounding the rod flat to eliminate the slack---the round hole does the same thing.

It sounds like your 3-way o-ring may have a knick in it or rotted out. I honestly hate those threeways, as they are not at all easy to work with. You may want to throw on a more user-friendly three-way. I'd suggest just getting a STO threeway, which were stock on the 2k+ cockers. They're cheap (between $10/$20), and are a lot more user friendly. I might also suggest a twister end cap for your LPR from belsales. Again, about 20 bucks and will make your LPR adjustable externally. If not, you can pop off your endcap and adjust from there, but the twister cap makes things a bit user-friendly. I wouldn't suggest more until you're completely comfortable with what you have. 90% of cocker problems boil down to user error when 'fixing' something that doesn't need fixing (we've all been there).

Keep following the guide Ravi made. It was good then, and is good now. It's exactly how I learned to time a cocker, and I can do it in my sleep now. It's legitimately good advice. Hop on over to CC, and we'll help you out over there.

[ghost flanker]

I really want to keep the pneumatics stock if I can. This gun is sort of a museum piece to me.

However, I did finally get the timing down pat after walking away to take a break from the frustration - timing rod was apparently not extended far enough out. Doing this stopped the smaller leak coming out the back of the three-way. Now the thing slurps tissue paper down the feedneck like nobody's business. It's still got that heavy leak that blows out the front of the 3-way when the trigger is pulled post-fire stage, though. Also only cocks about 40% of the time because of said leak. Gotta take that 3-way apart and see what the deal is. Probably is in dire need of a good cleaning and some Dow 55 at the very least. Those o-rings are likely toast anyway, though.

[Nobody]

Good, i was thinking it was a timing issue but didn't reply.

Remember, the 4 way is called a 4 way as it has 2 inlets and 2 outlets. The front is an exhaust port, you will always have some air escaping from there.

And make sure you are pulling the trigger fully. Coming from mags, it does take a deliberate pull and not like pulling a mag trigger. It is very much the opposite.

[cfos00]

Tear that puppy up and swap out o-rings, and it sounds like you should be good! And Vantrepes over there is a great dude to listen to. He knows what he's doing.

[[NA]WARLORD]

One thing the Resurrection has that no other autococker has is a warranty. This is crucial when your a first time cocker owner, only having a couple of Trilogy's in the past and those being pumps, after shooting one at a scenario game, I was hooked. I don't care about the lack of upgrades for it as it shoots perfectly fine to me. Docfire on customcockers.com did an in depth review on it and although mine pinched a bolt oring the first day I used it, it has been my go to gun over my Axe just about anytime I play now a days.

[cockerpunk]

WARLORD;2887080']One thing the Resurrection has that no other autococker has is a warranty. This is crucial when your a first time cocker owner, only having a couple of Trilogy's in the past and those being pumps, after shooting one at a scenario game, I was hooked. I don't care about the lack of upgrades for it as it shoots perfectly fine to me. Docfire on customcockers.com did an in depth review on it and although mine pinched a bolt oring the first day I used it, it has been my go to gun over my Axe just about anytime I play now a days.

trilogies get a bad rep, but they were actually a great setup. in some ways much better than normal cockers, and for new folks to the platform, very very good.

[Nobody]

trilogies get a bad rep, but they were actually a great setup. in some ways much better than normal cockers, and for new folks to the platform, very very good.

Not really. One of the main attractions of a cocker is the ability to change parts to suit the user. With the fixed 4 way, you lost one point of contention, then the gun specific LPR was another. Plus you had the look of them, well the look of all the later cocker where just ugly. So, it might have been a good gun, yet because they changed so much from the previous cockers, they will never be regalled as a good platform.

[BigEvil]

Because this is MUCH LESS COMPLICATED....


https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11406780_842955122457075_5501774092989842801_n.jpg ?oh=180d7cde9188b2ad08091f5a6d8d5b2d&oe=56027F86

[pdobrove]

trilogies get a bad rep, but they were actually a great setup. in some ways much better than normal cockers, and for new folks to the platform, very very good.
I agree with this point. Big fan of the 11/16th valve chamber and you never have to worry about the 3 way getting out of time. When you get board with it you can just do what I did, lol

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b546/pdobrove/Anodize%20Work/20140914_094435_zpsieeoszfu.jpg

[cockerpunk]

Not really. One of the main attractions of a cocker is the ability to change parts to suit the user. With the fixed 4 way, you lost one point of contention, then the gun specific LPR was another. Plus you had the look of them, well the look of all the later cocker where just ugly. So, it might have been a good gun, yet because they changed so much from the previous cockers, they will never be regalled as a good platform.

if you do not need or want to upgrade things that don't really effect the performance of the gun, they are perfect.

i think kevin has the best video proving the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HgGFiNWsGg

[pillage]

Autocockers can be as much fun and reliable as Automags. When those were the top guns on the market, the thing that caused the most grief to an Autococker owner, was the lack of knowledge and a handy set of Allen wrenches. I regularly used make good money unscrewing up Autococker timing for those who thought they were improving their gun's performance. A lot of the upgrades were either equal to what was in the gun stock, or not that much better. Once set as long as the orings hold up, the timing does change, making them reliable, kind of like an Automag.

The Cocker Haiku:
Did it work Before?
You messed with it didn't you?
Got what you deserve.

[ghost flanker]

Vantrepes on CC is doing his best to help me, but this project is proving to be a pain in the ass. Can't get the 3-way to stop leaking and it won't fully cock half the time. Looks to me like the ram's piston o-ring might be shot but I don't see how you gain access to the piston...they must've loctited the hell out of the ram body. And for all I can tell, it could be two separate leaks, or the leak could be intermittent - the symptoms I'm experiencing don't really match any of the troubleshooting guides. Now it turns out the non-slotted aftermarket trigger wasn't really meant to be used with the older style 3-way, so now I gotta either buy a slotted trigger plate or a newer 3-way. I know it'll be a reliable shooter once it's set up properly, but what I don't know is how you cocker guys do it. I've put in hours and emptied nearly three full air tanks trying to troubleshoot this thing...I'm about ready to just ship it off to an airsmith and let him deal with it because it's only sucking up all my free time.

[going_home]

Of course mags are better.

If you need a headache get a cocker.....

......

[Nobody]

Yup, this is exactly the bad of cocker ownership and what i was talking about 1 part effects the others. Take a deep breath and walk away for a bit. Its harder fixing the unknown because you are trying to undo what the previous owner did, but more worth while in the long run.

[cockerpunk]

Yup, this is exactly the bad of cocker ownership and what i was talking about 1 part effects the others. Take a deep breath and walk away for a bit. Its harder fixing the unknown because you are trying to undo what the previous owner did, but more worth while in the long run.

says the guy who doesn't think the trilogy is a good gun.

you cannot simultaneously condemn cockers for being complicated and unreliable, and then condemn trilogies for not being real cockers. the trilogies solve many of these common setup problems. and less adjustments might be less cocker like, but less adjustments and upgrades, means less for people to mess up.

[ghost flanker]

Of course mags are better.

If you need a headache get a cocker......
91409

[Nobody]

says the guy who doesn't think the trilogy is a good gun.

you cannot simultaneously condemn cockers for being complicated and unreliable, and then condemn trilogies for not being real cockers. the trilogies solve many of these common setup problems. and less adjustments might be less cocker like, but less adjustments and upgrades, means less for people to mess up.

If you want a fishing trip, go to the ocean. Try reading what i said then understand what i wrote and come up with a valid argument.

They are complicated. There is a balance of different parts that need to work properly and simultaneously together. Never said they were unreliable. Did say they that if parts were changed on the gun that care needs to be maintained as it can take a working gun to a headache.

The trilogy is a horrible platform. As well as it did to solve the problems to make it easier, it condemned it to be a dead platform. The lack of aftermarket parts, the changes to the body that required new parts to be made specific and proprietary made the platform poor and cheap.

You are so wrong, on so many levels its pitiful...

[ghost flanker]

Honestly, the thing that would keep me from buying a trilogy is the 1.5 finger trigger frame it has on it. Clearly made for nine-year-olds with small hands. Good ergonomics is one of my biggest priorities in a gun.

[cockerpunk]

Honestly, the thing that would keep me from buying a trilogy is the 1.5 finger trigger frame it has on it. Clearly made for nine-year-olds with small hands. Good ergonomics is one of my biggest priorities in a gun.

they made ones with a true double, same as all the other swing frames.

[cockerpunk]

If you want a fishing trip, go to the ocean. Try reading what i said then understand what i wrote and come up with a valid argument.

They are complicated. There is a balance of different parts that need to work properly and simultaneously together. Never said they were unreliable. Did say they that if parts were changed on the gun that care needs to be maintained as it can take a working gun to a headache.

The trilogy is a horrible platform. As well as it did to solve the problems to make it easier, it condemned it to be a dead platform. The lack of aftermarket parts, the changes to the body that required new parts to be made specific and proprietary made the platform poor and cheap.

You are so wrong, on so many levels its pitiful...

repeating yourself isn't an argument.

you cants argue a gun is too complicated, then say the less complicated version sucks.

[Nobody]

repeating yourself isn't an argument.

you cants argue a gun is too complicated, then say the less complicated version sucks.

If by saying that every fact that i have written before is repeating myself. Then i guess the truth hurts.

Yes, cockers can be complicated. Just as some people think carburetors are less complicated than EFI. It is all in what you know and what you are willing to learn.

If the Trilogy was "such" a good gun, why do people:
1) sell them for cheap/can't give them away
2) less upgradable/literally no aftermarket parts
3) ugly
4) going against the basis of what made cockers great(the ability to change every part)
5) the last gasp of WGP before they sold everything to Kee/Empire

Need more reasons?

[ghost flanker]

Cocker punk;
Oh, I didn't know they came in a full double trigger. Still though, I'm a one finger kinda guy:)

Nobody;
1. Low resale doesn't necessarily mean that a gun is bad. Level 7 mags typically sell in the low $100's and I think they're great guns. Also, Trilogies retailed for basically nothing to begin with.

2. I do like modularity in a gun design. Lack of aftermarket upgrades, though... that is more a reflection of what was popular at the time - namely achieving ever faster rates of fire. To a considerable degree, you're totally right. But a good gun to me is one that doesn't need upgrades. As to whether the Trilogy qualifies, I'll let you two argue opinions over that.

3. I admit, I think they're ugly, too. But I feel the same way about the Autococker SR.

4. I totally get the "build your own cocker" thing. But I'm weird. I like things stock. Bone stock means history and value retention. Also, it's pretty difficult to outsmart engineers who design truly quality products off the bat. Take wheels on a car for example; Mechanical engineers take the time to design OEM wheels to best suit the car they are tailored for. So why then do people swap out their OEM wheels for stupid 22" rims only to diminish their vehicles' performance and resale? Style? Quite often, upgrades aren't really upgrades. There's been untold millions made off snake oil products sold to paintball customers (aftermarket barrels, anyone?), and unless an aftermarket upgrade accomplishes something revolutionary, then what's the point?

5. Pretty much. They knew they could no longer compete with the likes of Dye, Bob Long, and Planet Eclipse in the ROF arms race, so WGP rolled the dice with an unfortunate business decision that had them compete for another market dominated by an even larger competitor, Tippmann. Trilogies were also made in China, no?

Of course I say all this without ever having shot a Trilogy before. Playing devils advocate, more or less. For all I know, I could fall in love with them or hate the holy hell out of them.

[BigEvil]

Nobody;
1. Low resale doesn't necessarily mean that a gun is bad. Level 7 mags typically sell in the low $100's and I think they're great guns. Also, Trilogies retailed for basically nothing to begin with.



There are thousands of lvl7 mags out there and have been out on the market since the early 90s. Different economic forces at work.

[cockerpunk]

There are thousands of lvl7 mags out there and have been out on the market since the early 90s. Different economic forces at work.

there are not thousands of trilogies? and as pointed out, with an initial price starting in the 120s, where do you think would end up nearly 10 years later? nowhere to go but down.

and i can't imagine how cheap price, simplified operation, and ease of use could ever be bad things for a guys first cocker. its like i've entered the bizzaro world of AO again. where folks are so happy to argue against me, that they loop back on themselves and now there arguments conflict with each other. lol. i thought we didn't like cockers because they were overly complicated and unreliable? solve these problems, and add in a cheaper price and the guns are still bad? what. the. actual. ****.

and as far as upgradbablity, they are actually fairly easy to upgrade, if you know where to look and want to actually upgrade one.

[BigEvil]

there are not thousands of trilogies? and as pointed out, with an initial price starting in the 120s, where do you think would end up nearly 10 years later? nowhere to go but down.

and i can't imagine how cheap price, simplified operation, and ease of use could ever be bad things for a guys first cocker. its like i've entered the bizzaro world of AO again. where folks are so happy to argue against me, that they loop back on themselves and now there arguments conflict with each other. lol. i thought we didn't like cockers because they were overly complicated and unreliable? solve these problems, and add in a cheaper price and the guns are still bad? what. the. actual. ****.

and as far as upgradbablity, they are actually fairly easy to upgrade, if you know where to look and want to actually upgrade one.

There might (and I stress that word) have been a large number produced, but if they sold they would not have been the dismal failure that they were. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a container of them sitting around somewhere it 'thousands' were produced.

[cockerpunk]

There might (and I stress that word) have been a large number produced, but if they sold they would not have been the dismal failure that they were. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a container of them sitting around somewhere it 'thousands' were produced.

there were certainly thousands sold, even back then.

didn't know resale price was such a ego builder around here .... all the more reason you two don't like my 60 dollar azodin thread .... haters gonna hate

[pillage]

While Trilogies were not completely horrible as a paintball gun goes, they definitely were not one of WGP's finer moments. They never had the favor of the market like the original Autococker platform did. Everyone and their brother made parts to fit an Autococker. By the time the Trilogy hit the market, the space ***** had come into favor. Had WGP released them a few years prior to that, people might have looked at the Trilogy in a better light. Market timing is everything, miss the window of opportunity and a diamond of a product, becomes an unpolished turd.

[BigEvil]

there were certainly thousands sold, even back then.

didn't know resale price was such a ego builder around here .... all the more reason you two don't like my 60 dollar azodin thread .... haters gonna hate

Sometimes I think you just put random words together in sentences and hit "REPLY"

[cockerpunk]

While Trilogies were not completely horrible as a paintball gun goes, they definitely were not one of WGP's finer moments. They never had the favor of the market like the original Autococker platform did. Everyone and their brother made parts to fit an Autococker. By the time the Trilogy hit the market, the space ***** had come into favor. Had WGP released them a few years prior to that, people might have looked at the Trilogy in a better light. Market timing is everything, miss the window of opportunity and a diamond of a product, becomes an unpolished turd.

yup, it was competing against used ions, and electro blowbacks. both were clearly superior from a firepower standpoint. when the electro trilogy finally came out, it was far far too late. although that gun again, was kinda of quirky and fun gun in and of itself too. WGP simply relied on 'closed bolt accuracy' for too long, and the market moved on. and then even worse was the buy out, at exactly the right time for bud orr, but exactly the wrong time for cockers. im sure that caused at least 6 months to a year of lost development time, making it again, even tougher to catch back up. and by the time they did release those guns, they were past there market prime by 2-3 years.

IMO WGP was not a very well run company even its heyday, but its demise was a particularly bad set of circumstances, with bad product engineering, and a bad market.

still, the trilogies were not bad guns, and for what they cost, what they are, is kinda amazingly good. and, pretty much perfect for a first time cocker user.

[pillage]

The thousands of Trilogies produced didn't move in the market. They collected dust on the shelves of many shops and were blown out on Ebay for pennies on the dollar later. If they had caught on in a big enough way, there would have been more aftermarket parts produced. As it was though, they were looked at as a market failure. While an Autococker is noted for being complicated vs a Mag, the tolerances for a Mag to work under are tighter out of the box than the Autococker. Mags also have less knobs to turn to get them to work normally. The Autococker just has more readily available knobs that can be easily user adjusted for good or bad.
Part of the fun for someone playing with a Cocker is that same overly complicated way of getting it to cycle, and what was a virtual unlimited variety of parts available. The Trilogy doesn't have that.

[Spider-TW]

Cocker punk;
Oh, I didn't know they came in a full double trigger. Still though, I'm a one finger kinda guy:)


The trilogy pro with the forward slanted reg had a double. You can fit a slider frame on there; some may need a little work to get around the valve retention screw.

My cockers, working or not, keep turning into pumps. I could put one together with the parts I have now. Whenever I see one, it reminds me of playing tournaments in 1990/1. There was a guy with either a Palmers nasty hurricane or its predecessor (maybe homemade being in San Antonio); a double barreled concoction of rams and valves. Most of the rest of us had F-1 illustrators or unibody phantoms. The double barrel was impressive, but the rest looked like a pain.

As long as your dinking around as a hobby, an autococker can suck up your time as well as anything. Half the fun is trying to make a Rube Goldberg machine work reliably.

[going_home]

Rube Goldberg machine


By far the best description of a cocker yet !


;)

[Nobody]

Sorry, this got buried and did wish to explain.


Nobody;
1. Low resale doesn't necessarily mean that a gun is bad. Level 7 mags typically sell in the low $100's and I think they're great guns. Also, Trilogies retailed for basically nothing to begin with.

Resale is a double edged sword. It shows that the market is barely there and you can pick them up for next to nothing but because there is no market the prices go down because they aren't very good. L7 mags are a bad example because the valves aren't bad nor are the "mods" just for a certain type of AGD valve(ULT being the exception to not being used in classic valves). Its just that the Xvalve is more desirable, being lighter, able to RT, anno'd and faster. It is a better argument using ReTro or Emag valves, as they can do everything an X can but will sit at price.

But the market does dictate the price at which it sells at, regardless of how good it might have been. If no one wants them, then they get cheap are not as good as standard cockers, then the market shows the truth.


2. I do like modularity in a gun design. Lack of aftermarket upgrades, though... that is more a reflection of what was popular at the time - namely achieving ever faster rates of fire. To a considerable degree, you're totally right. But a good gun to me is one that doesn't need upgrades. As to whether the Trilogy qualifies, I'll let you two argue opinions over that.

This is where the nostalgia factor is wrong and stock is best be looked through rose coloured glasses. By 99, the stock pneumatics were usable. Gone were the timing rods that were not threaded(slip fit. A round rod tightened with 2 sets screws, often would come undone), taking the frame off to access the sear lug, the threaded IVG, rams that had a life of 1000's of cycles, 4ways that would leak out of the factory, hoses that would blow off and just unreliable HPRs.

The cocker, you can say was pushed by the pro-teams for performance and reliability. Many vuns of that era needed aftermarket parts to achieve performance but also made the gun reliable and consistent. So it is more of how you want to go with it, which is the greatest ability of changing the parts you want.


3. I admit, I think they're ugly, too. But I feel the same way about the Autococker SR.

It is subjective. It is hard to see where the market will go to. Days ago, companies actually milled guns to make different models, now its lasering and colour combos.


4. I totally get the "build your own cocker" thing. But I'm weird. I like things stock. Bone stock means history and value retention. Also, it's pretty difficult to outsmart engineers who design truly quality products off the bat. Take wheels on a car for example; Mechanical engineers take the time to design OEM wheels to best suit the car they are tailored for. So why then do people swap out their OEM wheels for stupid 22" rims only to diminish their vehicles' performance and resale? Style? Quite often, upgrades aren't really upgrades. There's been untold millions made off snake oil products sold to paintball customers (aftermarket barrels, anyone?), and unless an aftermarket upgrade accomplishes something revolutionary, then what's the point?

See above. Stock was trial and effort and the people putting them together nor made them, were engineers. They were people who made things in their garages. We are spoiled using the children of Tom Kaye. The design doesn't need to be changed cause it was a homerun from the onset, then improved on, in house with the L10 & then the ReTro/Emag/Xvalve. The cocmer had every bit of it changed and improved upon, with better rams: valves, pneumatics, bolts, frames(the 45 mainly), hammers. You can build a totally aftermarket cocker, including the body. That goes to say something.


5. Pretty much. They knew they could no longer compete with the likes of Dye, Bob Long, and Planet Eclipse in the ROF arms race, so WGP rolled the dice with an unfortunate business decision that had them compete for another market dominated by an even larger competitor, Tippmann. Trilogies were also made in China, no?

Of course I say all this without ever having shot a Trilogy before. Playing devils advocate, more or less. For all I know, I could fall in love with them or hate the holy hell out of them.

Partly true on RoF. Remember, you did have Karnoivres in 2004, but it had to do with the lack of sponsorships and top teams that could show case the guns. It is superby easy to shoot an electro over mechanical gun. Then add in the sponsorship deals for a team that just came from cockers and those teams lost a year with the possibility of further years for guns/sponsorships. When a company that looses its flagship teams, and can no longer be top and it can not gain new people shooting them.

WGP also tried to get into the spyder-clone market. It is harder to expand in a market unless you have a great product. PE did with the GEO, AGD not so much with the Emag or Xmag. Without the flagship team, its hard to sell products to the masses. Add in the new flavor of the month guns and either you can compete or you get out of the way. Which what WGP did when they threw in the towel when they soldout to Kee.