Automag RT regulator leak lvl10

[mick]

Trying to get my automag rt back running. Installed new reg valve pin assembly, on/off assembly, rt regulator piston, new orings, and lvl 10 kit.
lvl 10 is using 2 shims, 1.5 (one line and dot), middle red spring.

RT is leaking now from regulator when I turn up the velocity. It does not leak when shooting around 220 but as I turn it up it leaks right out the back regulator hole. Also when I hold the trigger the leaking stops.

Could the new regulator piston be bad?

Thanks for any help

[nak81783]

First, tune your Level 10 according to athomas' guide in the stickied Level 10 issues thread. Typically, largest carrier that doesn't leak, no shims unless bolt doesn't vent when hitting something, and spring that starts shooting reliably 30fps or so below your desired velocity. With luck, this might allow a lower operating pressure, so your reg piston doesn't leak.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?43538-**-Official-Level-10-Problems-Thread-**&p=2868950#post2868950

If not, is the reg piston newly purchased from AGD or Tuna, or is it one you've had laying around for years or purchased somewhere other than AGD or Tuna? Level 10s do require a higher pressure, so if not recently purchased from AGD or Tuna, that's probably your issue.

[mick]

Purchased the parts from tuna last week.

This is the largest carrier that does not leak, started with no shims and able to get to 2. If I use the shorter spring paint gets chopped but it still caused leaking out the reg hole.
I currently do not have leaks down the barrel, just leaking out the reg hole. Also the leak is very slow out the reg hole and increases as velocity is turned up.

I have taken the gun apart and checked all orings are clean.

[vintage]

check the regulator valve pin assembly again. i have had problems with them where they looked fine but were still causing the leak. take the 2 o rings off and wipe them down and then reinstall them. i have had to do this 2 or 3 times before getting one to quit leaking.

[mick]

Ok will try again. I replaced once already the reg valv pin o ring to see if it would help but not the res seat oring.

[nak81783]

I think vintage meant the two orings on barrel side of the small spring pack on the valve pin assembly. If these were bad, it would allow unregulated air to get to the reg piston, causing a leak. This is true of the reg seat, too.

Concerning the Level 10, what do you mean "able to get to 2"? They're not something you want to add if it properly vents and resets when hitting something.

[Tunaman]

I haven't had a bad reg piston in a REALLY long time, but it is possible. I can send you another to swap out. Let me know

[BigEvil]

I haven't had a bad reg piston in a REALLY long time, but it is possible. I can send you another to swap out. Let me know

I had one on my classic RT. It was driving me nuts. What made me suspect the piston was that there was a lot of air spurting out of the back with each shot. I swapped the piston and the gun was fine after that.

[mick]

nak8178, I started out with no shims but it was sticking. I added one shim then 2. By adding the 2 shims I was able to get the bolt to function and fire some paint through it. I can try no shims again and see how it runs.

Thanks Tuna, I will try cleaning the orings again and see what happens.

[nak81783]

OK. I understand now. I would get the venting resolved, and then retune the Level 10.

Given that the leak stops when you hold the trigger back points exclusively to the bad reg piston. It means the air is flowing through the path it's supposed to. If it were bad valve pin assembly orings or the two orings on either side of the brass reg seat holder, it wouldn't stop when holding the trigger back. I would take Tuna up on his offer for a replacement.

[Laku]

OK. I understand now. I would get the venting resolved, and then retune the Level 10.

Given that the leak stops when you hold the trigger back points exclusively to the bad reg piston. It means the air is flowing through the path it's supposed to. If it were bad valve pin assembly orings or the two orings on either side of the brass reg seat holder, it wouldn't stop when holding the trigger back. I would take Tuna up on his offer for a replacement.

Holding trigger back means the leak is in power tube.

[Laku]

nak8178, I started out with no shims but it was sticking. I added one shim then 2. By adding the 2 shims I was able to get the bolt to function and fire some paint through it. I can try no shims again and see how it runs.

Thanks Tuna, I will try cleaning the orings again and see what happens.

Shims can give you false leaks. Tune it without any, you shouldn't ever need them.

Sticking without the shims meant that the carrier was too tight. You should always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak.

[nak81783]

Holding trigger back means the leak is in power tube.

Not if it's leaking out the reg piston. :-)

mick stated it's already the largest carrier that doesn't leak, and there is no leak down the barrel.

[Laku]

Given that the leak stops when you hold the trigger back points exclusively to the bad reg piston.
What you're saying here points to power tube, not piston. ;)

[nak81783]

Here's my logic. Trigger held back can help diagnose more than just powertube leaks. OP has no barrel leak (i.e., powertube leak). If trigger held back stops reg piston leak, this means one or both reg pin valve assembly orings are sealing, on/off top orings are sealing, and orings on aft side of the reg seat holder is sealing. The only way for the air to get to the reg piston would be around the reg seat, through the on/off, into the volume chamber, through the reg pin valve assembly, and into the reg piston area. This, imo, is why the reg piston stops leaking with the trigger held back.

If both the valve pin assembly orings were bad, the unregulated air could go right into the volume chamber, through the reg pin valve assembly, and into the reg piston area. It would leak whether trigger was pulled or not.

If oring on aft side of reg seat holder is bad, air could get to reg piston area with or without trigger held back. Whether or not the reg piston leaked at that point would depend on velocity setting and/or if reg seat was bad, whatever combination exceeded the reg piston (whether good or bad) relief pressure.

Since it stops leaking when pulled, all aforementioned orings are good. Reg piston is bad. Trigger helped diagnose something other than powertube leak.

But I'm happy to hear a rebuttal. I've been wrong many times before.

[athomas]

If both the valve pin assembly orings were bad, the unregulated air could go right into the volume chamber, through the reg pin valve assembly, and into the reg piston area. It would leak whether trigger was pulled or not.If one or both of these orings was bad, the air would leak out the side vent hole. The back one would cause a full time leak as long as there was air. The front one would cause a leak only when air was present in the front chamber.

All your other observations and explainations were well though out and spot on.

[nak81783]

I knew I was forgetting the little vent hole. Couldn't remember where it was at on the valve in relation to all the orings. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Laku]

Good argument. You might well be correct with you hypothesis, at least I can't find no obvious faults in it.

[mick]

Is the general consensus the reg piston most likely bad?

[nak81783]

Lol. Yes. Sorry if I hijacked your thread.

You said you replaced the reg piston with a new one from Tuna. Was the old one bad? Did you try the old one to see if it works better? I've never replaced a reg piston in 15ish years of using my Mags, so I don't know how often they need to be replaced, how often the go bad, etc.

[mick]

No the reg was not bad. I needed a new higher pressure reg for the level 10 from what I read.

[Tunaman]

No the reg was not bad. I needed a new higher pressure reg for the level 10 from what I read.I am going to send you another one out in todays mail. Send the other one back to me when you get a chance. Thanks

[vintage]

check the regulator valve pin assembly again. i have had problems with them where they looked fine but were still causing the leak. take the 2 o rings off and wipe them down and then reinstall them. i have had to do this 2 or 3 times before getting one to quit leaking.

just rebuilt one 3 times tonight before it quit leaking out the velocity adjustment hole.

[nak81783]

vintage,

Are all of your reg valve pin assembly issues on one marker or different markers?

Regardless, any number of factors with the reg pin valve assembly which do not allow it to properly float/reciprocate (e.g., swollen/dirty/damaged orings, worn/incorrectly assembled spring washers, etc.) could prevent proper reg seat sealing. This could allow unregulated air to get to the reg piston, which would then vent. That said, are you sure your reg seat oring is good? Is your leak exclusively out the back velocity adjustment hole, and nothing from either of the two side vent holes (one being the aforementioned by athomas)?

If you have to repeatedly clean/reassemble the same reg valve pin assembly, I would replace the orings, check for proper number and assembly of the spring washers, or just get a new one to rule out a combination of factors.

[vintage]

short story long version--bought this emag off ebay as non working(it is) mostly complete. low valve #. i go to rebuild the valve and the when i pull the pin assy. it comes apart leaving the o rings in the valve body. so i get a spare out of my parts box put new o rings on it put the valve in my other emag and it leaks out the velocity adjustment hole like mad. so i take it back apart pull the pin assy. take the o rings back off blow the whole thing off with canned air reassemble and repeat the leak. pull the pin out again and it comes apart so i dig my last pin assy. out of parts, blow it off put new orings on it and it seals. this is about the normal for me lately.

[nak81783]

Sorry for your frustrations. Sounds like there's something else going on, perhaps a combination of factors which are sending mixed signals. Odd that the reg pin valve assemblies are pulling apart when you extract them.

1. What all did you rebuild? Did you replace all seals?
2. Do you see any burrs/debris/damage in the hole where you install the reg pin valve assembly that could cause the tough extraction?
3. I can't remember, do the low number valves have two side vent holes on the valve, one on each half? Don't want to repeat my earlier mistake of forgetting about the side vents.

[vintage]

i've had several off of ebay, mcb, etc that have had stuck pins this last couple of years. i've had to pull a couple with side cutters and throw them out. i'm also out of reg pins and will now have to buy one if it happens again.

[mick]

Sorry for the delay in responding. Finally got around to swapping out the reg.

The new regulator fixed the issue and there is no longer a leak out the back. Gun shoots good now.

[Tunaman]

Sorry for the delay in responding. Finally got around to swapping out the reg.

The new regulator fixed the issue and there is no longer a leak out the back. Gun shoots good now.

Dont forget to send me back the other one so i can get credit.